| (Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) | |
Beat Writer  Posts: 128 Joined: 21 Mar 2009     | |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 683 Joined: 29 Apr 2008    |
Thanks for the tip on flash develop, I looked into it last night. The problem seams that it does not create an .fla nor does it have a WYSIWYG editor for animations. I work with flash MX 2004 at work but don't have my own copy at home. So question for the escapist folk contest requirements dictate the submission of an .fla file, however if I use this free tool to make a .swf document without an .fla, can I submit my source code files and still qualify. Also I would like to note that there are other open source web development tools out there. My current favorite is processing (http://processing.org/). It is free, open source, and produces java script documents that can be run in browsers. It is so easy to use a friend of mine just taught a bunch of 4th-6th graders to use it on a summer school class. It does not have all the features of Flash but it was enough for me to make this game in about 4 hours as a joke: Would it be possible to use processing for this contest? Source code is Java style and much easier to read then even action script. |
Paperboy  Posts: 24 Joined: 5 Aug 2009     |
You are not allowed to upload it to any other site, not sure about your own though. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1670 Joined: 31 Mar 2008     |
Not really. With mouth lasers I'm able to add the very clever sub-text that Molyneaux is trying to kill you with all of his lofty and empty promises. |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 56 Joined: 4 Mar 2009     |
I'm hoping it won't be disqualified, as I've been working on it on and off since June 2008. I'm talking to them about it now, but even if it's disallowed I'm working on a different ZP game idea anyway, so I'll at least be able to enter one of them. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 24 Dec 2008 | My apologies if this is straying too much from the topic, but I have a question related to ZP-inspired games. The original page for the contest had Yahtzee quoted as saying "People have tried to make ZP-based games before." Outside the realm of the contest, what constitutes fair use for people not looking to make money, and only release their game for free? For example, any trademarks/logos present would presumably be out of the question - they are owned by the Escapist, so you could be falsely representing them. But what of making your own assets of ZP characters? What about use of audio clips from the series? Basically, if someone wanted to make their own ZP game, where do you draw the line and say "this is no longer okay with us, and has legal implications"? |
PROBATION  Posts: 1074 Joined: 6 Jun 2009    |
You would'nt happend to know where I can learn Flash do ya? User was put on probation for: Escape to the Movies: 2012. (14 days) |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009  | Wut? The blatant dis-regard for intellectual property sickens me. I was thinking about joining this until I read that we were GIVING UP EVERYTHING and that you had the rights to modify our material however you wanted and give us as much credit as you want or even take all the credit for yourself (not stated, implied. I know you probably won't cut our names entirely but the fact you dissuade us from even having our names in the opening sequence makes my senses scream malicious). I want my games to be popular and get millions of views, yes. But I can get that from the numerous flash portals and get money on top of that from sponsors and adds (someone has already gone into that, so I'm not going to repeat it all). It's crazy though.. You guys have it all backwards. MILLIONS of dollars are spent each year on flash games so that a company gets it's branding in a game in the hopes that the game gets distributed across the web, netting them huge views back. You guys are actually trying to stop that? Give me a break. Please do some research on how indie flash markets work, else you are alienating 99.9% of the veteran developers. Here are the terms that I and most other indie developers want. 1. Keep our intellectual property. You gain the rights to use, distribute etc. we keep the rights to what we create. (You can't argue this! There is no reason for you to own what we made). Go look at the terms for a typical flash game contest for reference. These terms do not harm you in any way and are ABSOLUTE MINIMUM in the indie flash development market. If you allow these, you will actually get veteran developers entering. If not, I have no option then other then to label this contest as probably malicious, and say enjoy the mouse avoiders, games copied from tutorials, and may the force be with you. |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 3 Joined: 6 Aug 2009    | Wow, the levels of craziness in this thread are amazing. As an indie game developer who has a game in development that will (hopefully) be released on the Steam and XBLA platforms, I have no idea where all of this brimstone and fire is coming from. Obviously, few of you have taken the time to read all of the way through this thread. It has been stated previously that the Escapist is only protecting themselves with the full ownership clause. You realize that, were they to allow the creator to keep all rights to modify and republish his/her work, the Escapist would essentially be allowing every moron from New York to New Zealand to do whatever they want with THEIR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. Now, I'm all for personal rights, but I hate seeing a good company get their policies completely misinterpreted by morons who want to sound intellectual. The Escapist isn't trying to deprive you of anything, they're trying to make sure you don't go running off with the legal right to the Zero Punctuation line of work, something which you should find completely acceptable. If you still don't, then I have a few licensing contracts I'd like you to sign. As for the people saying that there will be nothing but a huge torrent of crappy games, I don't understand you people either. It's true that the "real" veterans will stay away from this, but needless to say those people are already gainfully employed full time at an ACTUAL game developer. I know of plenty of people who are far more than competent developers but need a boost into the public eye to truly shine. I, myself, like to delude myself into thinking I'm among them. So no, we aren't going to get the best of the best of the best. Those people are making greater and shinier things. But for those who know what they're doing and just need a small push to get going in the industry, I doubt you can find a better place. Some have mentioned portal sites like Newgrounds and Kongregate. While I acknowledge that they CAN be places for a developer to get noticed, they are nowhere near a good place to showcase your work. The best most can hope for is a small following on a portal site. I, for one, stay away from portal sites due to the overwhelming amount of crap. On the other hand, ZP games will be reviewed by Yahtzee, who holds a moderately large following on the internet, as well as other judges. This is the big leagues, kids, not some Newgrounds page where people will give you "ten" reviews if there are boobs somewhere in it. If you succeed here, the path before you will open up. So either realize the opportunity at hand or get out. Before you post, do some reading and make sure that you actually understand what's going on, people. If you don't appreciate the terms, either review what's truly at hand here or leave. I promise you won't be missed. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 24 Dec 2008 | In an attempt to help out other people to find all the answers thus far, as well as respond to a couple myself, here's my Q&A list:
Virgil - "Excessive is the key word there. There's a line where you cross into bad taste, and the staff and judges get to decide what that is, and reject the ones that go above and beyond."
You are making a ZP-based game - a series on the Escapist - presumably using assets and logos from the series/site - owned by the Escapist. They're just protecting their trademark, you can't claim full dominion over the game, as you didn't create every part of it. Also, they know as well as you do who made the game, and are offering exposure for your work - more than enough compensation for any indie developer.
Yes. One member will be the "team lead", and that person will be responsible for submitting the game, and dealing with any prizes that may result.
Yes, your Escapist username or real name would both be fine.
No, you are using assets owned by the Escapist - see: "OMFG teh Escapist ownz mah gaem?? WTF?". *Note: it may be possible to get permission from the Escapist to do so at some point, however.
Yes, your code must be able to be reviewed to check usability and protection against any malicious software. In addition to protecting their name/trademark, they're protecting their computers, this is common sense.
If you're serious about learning Flash, pick up a book on it, there are plenty out there. If you're half-serious, and just want to learn barely enough to make something to constitute being called a game, google "Flash tutorial"; it's pretty easy.
Archon: "What that rule prohibits is acts that *even if performed in the context of a game* are prohibited under law." Translation: Don't make your game *actually do* illegal things.
Oh, shut up, no one is telling you that you should enter. If I go out to dinner and I don't want anything on the menu, I don't yell at the waiter until they agree to make something I can get at another restaurant, because it's my money, and they shouldn't be allowed to take it from me in exchange for what they're offering. Go elsewhere, no one will miss your pointless complaints. In queue:
Rod F:
|
Beat Writer  Posts: 129 Joined: 14 Sep 2008    |
I must salute you with high honor. *Salute* And I also would like to welcome you to the site and thank you for setting an avatar. (Most of the people without them are trolls or people who just make an account to post an insult)The thing I hate about this site is the fact that no one actually takes the time to read through everything, so you usually get the same thing over and over...But what you said is really the truth and people should stop being so stuck up and stop complaining for once. Oh and hello, I'm Jarico... |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 67 Joined: 6 Aug 2009    | Will we be able to play all the games that are entered, or just the winner? |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 24 Dec 2008 | Sorry, but this illustrated my one point perfectly:
Then go off to your flash portals, and get the fame and fortune you so obviously deserve, and leave the rest of us to make games because it's fun, and it would be a personal joy to see it up on a popular site. And if we gain some notoriety beyond that, as well as some swag, and the possibility for interest from a AAA developer, then all the better. No tears will be shed due to your absence, we will be better off without "veterans" such as yourself. |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009   |
What he said! Understand the basic premise: You make a game with OUR stuff, about OUR intellectual propety: so WE get to keep it, becuase WE don't want OUR stuff to be used everywhere without the proper licensing. What's in for YOU? YOU get the exposure YOU DESERVE for making the best game in the contest. That way YOU will probably end being picked up by some game developer company or even by US to make MORE GAMES THAT INVOLVE REAL MONEY!YOU can even say in your resume that YOU WON A CONTEST as proof of your excellence to stand out from a crowd of game developers. Hell, you can brag to other people that YOU got picked up by YAHTZEE, who we all know he's harsh to 99,9% of games out there, to be the representation of HIS whole web-series. Oh, and YOU get a swag bag as a physicall manifestation of your programming skills. Come on, people! See the big picture! It's a great opportunity to STAND OUT and get EXPOSURE!!!! Everytime you sign to make a game with other people's IP you are sometimes considered LUCKY if you ever get to say your name in the credits!!! (but you get good money for that... in this case, the 'money' part is potential to be exploited latet) EDIT: Oh and thanks to the user that quoted my questions, I would love to have them answered, Thanks man :D Oh and what he said about guys wanting to have their fame and fortune in Newgrounds or Kongragate or whatever... it ain´t easy to stand out in there... you´re game could be the next best thing but, in the case of Newgrounds, if you´re not highlighted the next day with an award or, lucky you, on front page... your game gets forgotten just as easy... |
Anonymous Source Posts: 3 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 | aamesxdavid, you read my mind. Jarico, thanks for the welcome! Ironically, I registered to be able to participate in the contest. It seems that no matter where I go, my first post on the forums is always a tsunami of furious anger and barely controlled rage. Eh, what can ya do? Good luck, all! |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 683 Joined: 29 Apr 2008 | I thank Platinum Sorceror and aamesxdavid for being the voices of reason in what has become a some what bad tempered discussion. However I fear the damage has already been done. It has been just over 24 hours without a post from an escapist official. I fear they have written off this thread as a flame war. It is a shame because there are still questions pending. By the way welcome to the escapist it is not always this bad. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1670 Joined: 31 Mar 2008 |
Hey, if it's any consolation I like your style (we're talking about the tsunami of very poignant furious anger and barely controlled rage, of course). It's good to have you here. Personally I can't wait to see whatever it is your going to crank out. |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 6 Joined: 5 Aug 2009 |
Adorable, use lolcat speech to mock your opponent's argument. That's as productive as using sarcasm to, wait. sorry. There is no reason to check against malicious software. It's Flash. It has insane security protection. No other site ever makes coders submit code for this reason. You think Addicting Games or Kongregate or Newgrounds get to, or have time to, look at the source code for all the games submitted to them? The only sites that do make people submit code are those that rip the developer's name out of the file and post the game as their own. Not that I'm accusing Escapist of planning this, because I don't think they're dumb or evil, but flash developers have heard or had horror stories from shady sponsor sites doing this. That means any experienced coder is going to be very wary of giving up his or her source code. It's just a thing. If you're actually worried about offensive easter eggs, then you make your contest winner sign a contract agreeing to pay for any damages caused by hiding offensive content in the game so if you get sued you aren't liable for damages. Now you say it uses escapist assets, so you can't claim full ownership because you don't own all elements of the game? But Escapist isn't creating the code, and they DO own the game fully? Sorry but dumping a bunch of elements into a zip file is not as much work as making a game. You could easily allow a developer to keep the rights to his code to use in a differently skinned game. That way everyone would own the thing they actually made. The only time game developers give up source code is when they are payed to write it. Also Platinum Sorcerer, depicting someone who disagrees with you as "crazy" is not remotely helpful. I understand that this contest will be fun for people trying to learn flash. I'm just explaining that The Escapist has closed the door to the mainstream flash game developer community because of the terms of the contest. If they want a professional-level flash game, they could change the terms very slightly to protect everyone's interests and not have to pay a cent more for it. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 | I find it absolutely hilarious that Yahtzee uses characters from various games in parody and claims it as intellectual property, but then when it's time that other people use his stuff in parody it's suddenly OH, WAIT, BATTER DOWN THE HATCHES MEN. But ignoring that little(?) detail... you guys talk as if every game is going to get publicity. I would like more information about this because as far as we've heard, it's winner-takes-all which is absurd when you're dealing with something that takes a large amount of time to make (I did read the thread. they said they were "on the fence" about showing runner ups). If you don't win, you've spent a large portion of time making something that you can't use anywhere else, you don't even own anymore... If you've had ANY experience with contests, you will see how bad this could turn out. I've seen too many games contests end in tears... Then, it reflects badly on the host.. etc. BTW, the reason i'm even bothering to bang this into your obviously hardened skulls is because intellectual property is the #1 concern in the flash industry. Mainly because situations like this are abused by the people running them. I'm not saying that they WILL, but if they use this as an excuse to rack up huge amounts of viral media then use it to promote themselves with only a footnote for the people responsible for it, I'll be disappointed in them. And if you don't think that's a problem, reconsider how much you actually think your work is valuable. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 | Hopefully those members that discard the flame war will get the good out of this and start making their games. |
Anonymous Source  Posts: 3 Joined: 6 Aug 2009  | I apologize if this has already been answered somewhere in this thread but what would be the policy on additional art/sound/animation taken from the reviews themselves or would we be limited to the contest assets package and original content? |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 |
Sorry, discussing a subject in detail does not constitute a flame war. Attacking the other side and not being constructive is... Anyway, on scarybug's point... I would actually feel much more inclined to participate if they did not get my source (or, at least, own it! they can check it all they want but I don't want them to have the legal right to modify it!) This would eliminate the ripe possibilities of the developer getting abused. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 |
I know FOR A FACT that they do ask for the Source Code of games that they license. I don´t see the harm in that. They just want to check if it´s reading stuff from somewhere else or having any code that could be used to ´screw´ them by the programmer if the resulting publication is not ´what he considers to be apropiate´. The security within the Flash interface is tight but nothing stops you from loading a MovieClip within the game that is hosted in your personal server... that way, let´s just say I was not happy with the way they handled my game, I change my externally loaded MovieClip to a big *STONK YOU! YOU STONKING STONKERS* MovieClip that will be displayed over the game because I feel that ´they screwed me´. That´s a hypothetical case that causes them to cover that up. Needless to say there are worst things you can do remotely with a flash file, but you get the picture.. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 683 Joined: 29 Apr 2008 |
Actually it is not unreasonable for programming contests to ask for source code. It ensures you are the original author, since only you would have the source code. It ensures nothing malicious is endorsed be the hosting site. That does not just include viruses but Easter eggs with undesirable content. Remember the GTA Hot Coffee shenanigans a few years ago? Here are some long running competitions that require you to submit your source code: |
Copy Clerk Posts: 56 Joined: 4 Mar 2009 |
I actually encoded a time activated bonus screen into one of my games for a friend's birthday. It meant that while ordinarily the game did one thing - on a certain day it did something else. If the contest winner wanted to screw around they could add in a whole bunch of extra "hidden" stuff that would get the Escapist in trouble - as they'd be hosting it. Would you host a .rar file for someone, if you didn't know EVERYTHING inside it? It'd be just to risky. While not inherently dangerous, it's the unknown contents of the .rar that could ruin everything. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 |
We are not complaining about that. But that's not the case here. those contests don't CLAIM LEGAL OWNERSHIP of your code. Do you see the difference? =/ If they owned your code, they could jump to their nearest publisher and start making money off your work then cut you out of the credits entirely and do so legally. Obviously if you're entering those contests you don't want that. This is why IP is such a big issue to us. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 6 Joined: 5 Aug 2009 |
I also know for a fact that they didn't get mine when they bought a license. I think you're right, they did ask for it, but I declined. Instead agreeing to make any changes as they thought necessary and signing a statement that the contents were all what they wanted and nothing that would hurt their brand. But that was because they are a site for younger kids and are worried about content, not security. And you CAN protect against loading MovieClips from external sources. It's a simple HTML call when you embed the flash. Hamster MK 4 is right though. I think that I was confusing the issue in my previous post. I can see submitting code *for review* for contests. That is uncomfortable, but reasonable if the game is going to be on a website. However that's different from giving up the rights to your code. Sorry for confusing reviewing code with giving up rights. That was really a side-track. Seriously I'm only arguing here because I like the idea of the contest and would enter, and know other devs who would enter, if we didn't give up the rights to all the work we would do. I'm not trying to flame or ruin anyone's fun. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 | Yeah that how they roll... since the game I made for them was actually an exclusive license they insisted on the source code and, again, I saw no harm in that since they were going to be the only 'owners' of the game due to the 'exclusiveness'. I understand it's hard to 'part from your creation' but they do that mostly to cover themselves of what many of you have stated (easter eggs, hidden content... etc). They won't actually use your code to make another game, if that's what people are afraid of. If they do they'll be hurting their brand because they screwed a programmer.. or in this case, the contestants... and no brand would be interested in that.. for a fair ammount of money they could pay the same guy to make another game or change it or whatever and have him on their side, thus being beneficial to the brand because if he's asked about wheter brand X is good to work with he'll say yes. The problem might have been then a poor choice of words when writing the rules and regulations of the contest. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 3 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 | scarybug, I must first apologize, that was a rather callous statement, I admit. It sounded better when I typed it and promptly progressed to writing the next paragraph. Sadly, though, you're mistaken about Flash security. While Adobe may do their best, there is no possible way to catch everything. In fact, there was a Slashdot article about an exploit to which a ridiculous amount of users were vulnerable to... Lessee... Here! http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/07/28/1412255/92-of-Windows-PCs-Vulnerable-To-Zero-Day-Attacks-On-Flash
Well, it can go two ways here: either the Escapist gives the rights to ZP to anyone who wants it, or anyone who wants to enter gives the rights to their games to the Escapist. It can't go both ways here. No, the Escapist didn't create the code, nor would I expect them to ever claim that they did. And yes, I agree wholeheartedly that compressing a collection of images and sound files is easy. I've done it myself countless times. However, I can promise you that creating a style, image, and brand such as ZP is not a simple task. Also, I honestly would be very, very surprised if the Escapist sent a cease and desist letter to anyone who reuses code from their submitted game. Not only would it be difficult at best to figure out that the reuse actually took place, the ensuing backlash from people like you and me would cost them far more than they could possibly gain. Again, they're covering their IP ass(ets), not trying to get free games. You also mention that nobody would willingly give up their source to the Escapist without getting paid. There is no money involved, I'll grant you that, but you fail to take in the intangible benefits that are involved here. You have a chance to have your name and work displayed prominently on a website that gets far more hits per day than most people get in months, a chance to get your work reviewed by a fairly well-known video game reviewer and possibly other, even better known ones, and you get free swag. So no, no money, but there are definitely things to gain here, even if you can't purchase hookers and blow with it. Arby, I'm not sure if you quite grasp the differences here. ZP is indeed a work of parody, giving it the ability to reference video games without fear of libel or slander lawsuits. However, since the point of this contest is to make a game *about* ZP, not *parodying* it, the parody protection is not extended to these games. If you wished to make a game that was an obvious parody of Zero Punctuation which made it plain that it had absolutely no real connection to ZP, then yes, it would be covered by the same laws as ZP itself, but somehow I doubt you would make it far in the contest. As for your "no runners-up" statement, I can agree with you there. At the worst, two months have been spent on a project you no longer own that was rejected by the company you sent it to and is now more or less worthless. As the great Morpheus said, "...how would that be different from any other day?" If you're really an indie developer like you say, then you'll know that rejection is the name of the game, and if you're truly that hung up on putting in some work just to have someone say no, then I honestly think you're in the wrong place, friend. Regardless of whether you give up the code or not, don't you think that making games for games' sake is really what this is all about? Even if there's no chance of getting a cameo in the ZP episode or an honorable mention somewhere, don't you think that it's worth it regardless? To make a point to both Arby and scarybug... Even with my above points on code reuse are taken into account, are you really that afraid? I'm not trying to call your prowess into question here, but are you both so unsure of yourselves that you're not even willing to try? Isn't that sort of like shooting the horse before the starting gates open? Are you both that afraid of failure that because there's a chance you won't get the top prize you're willing ot settle for obscurity? I dunno, if it were me I would trade two months of work I can never think of again for a shot at glory than sit in my dingy apartment dreaming of what could be. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 683 Joined: 29 Apr 2008 |
When I code for contests I do it messy. Normally I code to be reusable and efficient, but when contest time comes around I slap some monstrosity together that I can't even make sense out of two months down the line. I am not actually trying to obfuscate my code it is just easier and faster to do it messy. If anyone tried to sell my contest code to a serious publisher they would be laughed out of the building. |
Brand Manager  Posts: 2437 Joined: 8 Oct 2007    | Hello Friends! Because any game submitted would be based on our intellectual property, we need to have the rights to the games. However, we do understand that you would want to be able to re-use the source code or art you create, outside of our IP, for other purposes down the road. We want to be sure you have that too. Therefore we are revising the rules as follows: "Except for Contestant Materials, (defined below) all games submitted to The Escapist become property of The Escapist, including any intellectual property rights in Escapist materials or derivations thereof. The Escapist reserves all rights, including intellectual property rights to publication, re-publication and distribution. However, contestant shall own all intellectual property rights in any art, design, or source code, that is not based on or derived from The Escapist's existing intellectual property ("Contestant Materials") and Contestant hereby grants The Escapist a royalty-free, non-exclusive license to any Contestant Materials as they are incorporated into any entry for the purpose of publication, re-publication and distribution of the entry." In short, you are welcome to re-skin the game and use any underlying materials as your own. It was never our intention here at The Escapist to take your IP. We only wanted what was necessary to protect our IP and publish contest entries. Best, |
Beat Writer Posts: 129 Joined: 14 Sep 2008 |
You are very cheery about this, aren't you Spinwhiz? |
Brand Manager Posts: 2437 Joined: 8 Oct 2007 | |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1670 Joined: 31 Mar 2008 |
So, to clear this up quickly, the Escapist technically own any artwork for the game that I "reverse-engineered" off of materials that came in the released .rar archive? |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 |
Fantastic! Thanks. This re-enforces my faith in this contest. This makes it a whole lot better =) (although, I'm still sad about giving up distribution rights etc. [see below] =( But that's a loss I can accept I guess, if absolutely necessary.)
My complaint is not of a legal nature at all. I was simply looking at it from a moral standpoint. The legal stuff would be a gray area anyway even for parodies here. Fair use only stretches so far. I would comment, however that one of the main reasons that parodies are the exception is because the owners of the materials are obviously not the ones who created the parody, thus preserving the brand. Encouraging the developers to properly take credit for their games (ie. more then just a name in the credits) is of the same effect. The player can obviously see that this is not endorsed by escapist, preserving the brand. This is how it has been done in other similar circumstances such as the wiggi/woogi world contest. Instead, escapist is going turtle with any likeness to it's characters and preventing the free publicity this generates which, while is a safe alternative, stops the good publicity effects and is less encouraging to the developer. I have NO SAY over how you deal with your brand, of course, but I want to make sure you are aware that there are alternatives that sit much better with the mainstream flash developer.
I've been there, done that. Spent 2 months of my life on a contest, went home unhappy. I'm not in a rush to try it again. Especially just for pats on the back (no matter who they're from!) I want to spend my time making great games that tons of people play and enjoy, not ones that get shelved and restricted due to legal mumbo =/ Surely that is a respectable goal? |
| (Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) | |
Reply to Thread
|
|
Not registered? Sign up for a free account! |
this should be good i cant wait to play the winning game but i do have one question, will the rights to the game be given to the escapist or can the maker post the game on another website