Left 4 Dead 2: The Boycott: The Visit: The Aftermath: The Interview

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

Left 4 Dead 2: The Boycott: The Visit: The Aftermath: The Interview

Andy Chalk gets the scoop on the L4D boycotters and their trip to Valve.

Read Full Article

Andy Chalk still hasn't bought Left 4 Dead.

Andy Chalk took long enough to buy TF2 and he still hasn't logged onto melee night. :)

Why get TF2 when you can have Peggle Extreme?

I enjoyed talking with Andy and explaining our actual position. The unfortunate thing is that some of the more... vocal folks are also the ones who disparage Valve at every turn. Meanwhile the bulk of our membership really just want's Valve to fix L4D and provide what they said they would in the first place.

I think Valve should've just put everyone on L4D2 boycott lists on ban lists to prevent them from buying or playing any form of the game. Demo or otherwise. That'd be pretty epic!

buy teh haloz:
I think Valve should've just put everyone on L4D2 boycott lists on ban lists to prevent them from buying or playing any form of the game. Demo or otherwise. That'd be pretty epic!

And it would be helping the community so that they could stay true to their goals. Seems reasonable to me.

I still think the real problem is that Valve was so quick to jump on a sequel for L4D (Which I honestly thought was the fourth installment of a game made popular before my time) when you consider how long it took for sequels to Half Life and Team Fortress to be made.

"we owe these guys a thanks"

Sorry, don't agree. I guess these guys have been more mature than your average hate group, but if they've made progress for the community or opened an avenue for better customer->developer communication, that's just because Valve cares, not because these guys did anything special.

Part of me thinks whiners shouldn't be awarded simply for whining. I for one am THRILLED about the pending L4D2 release (I've already paid for it in full), and I'm really glad it's THIS YEAR instead of MANY YEARS from now.

Walking_Target:
Meanwhile the bulk of our membership really just want's Valve to fix L4D and provide what they said they would in the first place.

Can you link to these promises? I've heard alot of boycotters stating that, but frankly, I've never seen any of them expand on the point and show what was promised.

Arbitrary Cidin:
I still think the real problem is that Valve was so quick to jump on a sequel for L4D (Which I honestly thought was the fourth installment of a game made popular before my time) when you consider how long it took for sequels to Half Life and Team Fortress to be made.

Yeah, this does seem to be the root of the bile; Valve haters (like the long gone head of the 'Sony Defence Force') suddenly had ammo they could use, and people who'd gotten to used to Valve going WAY above and beyond for the PC gamers suddenly got the impression they were being cheated of their free stuff.

Wait... is that the actual walking_target? And if it is, I think Valve has done enough to "support" the boycotters and trying to do as much as they can to continue to support Left 4 Dead. They are obviously not giving up on Left 4 Dead.

It just blows my mind how you could get that upset over someone offering a sequel...

On top of that, Valve doesn't owe any of us anything. Think about all the games that have actually been not supported since the sequel came out. Once Gears of War 2 came out, absolutely nothing has been done with Gears of War 1. Left 4 Dead is going to be supported long after it's sequel, much like Team Fortress 2 continues to get updates.

And if you're not the real Walking_Target, please ignore this post.

Kwil:

buy teh haloz:
I think Valve should've just put everyone on L4D2 boycott lists on ban lists to prevent them from buying or playing any form of the game. Demo or otherwise. That'd be pretty epic!

And it would be helping the community so that they could stay true to their goals. Seems reasonable to me.

Swing and a miss guys.

We're boycotting L4D2 because of the poor support for L4D. What if L4D2 has a bunch of bugs/exploits at release? you would want those taken care of in a timely fashion, right? How would you feel if months later, various problems that had been there since day one were still present?

It shouldn't be so hard to understand; We want L4D's bugs and exploits fixed, first and foremost, followed by the content that the guys at Valve said was comming to L4D? They said that new weapons, enemies, campaigns, characters and etc. would be comming.

Heck, TF2 gets almost weekly patches for bugs and exploits. We're just asking Valve to fix known issues and release some new content like they said that they would, way back at the release of L4D. It is in no way unreasonable to expect a product to be supported in the manner that the developer of that product said it would be.


That being said, I personally think that Valve will live up to what they have said and support L4D in the manner they had said they would. I'm not giving up until they show that they are actually doing so though. It's called follow through, and it's the responsible thing to do.

Once Valve has followed through on the bug fixes and content (and only after such support) I would encourage other members of the boycott to purchase the new game because it did play well.

Double Post

popdafoo:
Wait... is that the actual walking_target? And if it is, I think Valve has done enough to "support" the boycotters and trying to do as much as they can to continue to support Left 4 Dead. They are obviously not giving up on Left 4 Dead.

It just blows my mind how you could get that upset over someone offering a sequel...

On top of that, Valve doesn't owe any of us anything. Think about all the games that have actually been not supported since the sequel came out. Once Gears of War 2 came out, absolutely nothing has been done with Gears of War 1. Left 4 Dead is going to be supported long after it's sequel, much like Team Fortress 2 continues to get updates.

And if you're not the real Walking_Target, please ignore this post.

Really, if Valve made a claim that they would be providing "Team Fortress 2 like support" and *any* copies of L4D were sold based on that claim, they do owe the community something.

If you want to get into the legal bits and pieces, it's called 'False Advertising' or with the sequel on the way, perhaps 'Bait and Switch'. If you sell something based on an advertised expectation and you fail to follow through on it, you are liable.

Also.

Left 4 Dead is going to be supported long after it's sequel, much like Team Fortress 2 continues to get updates.

Valve claimed that they were supporting the game in a certain manner, not us. Valve has so far failed to follow through on their claim. They probably will follow through, but the fact still remains that they have not done so thus far and that there is a sequel in the works. The analogy that you made between gears of war and gears of war 2 is the exact reason many people are up in arms and so wary of L4D2.

The problem with the L4D2 boycott is the idea of how many people are actually willing to boycott the game.

Though the group has around 40,000 members, how many are dedicated to the cause? If you look at any of their news posts, they get up to, at most, 100 posts. Sure, they have comments on their page upwards of 9,000, but many don't really deal with want to boycott.

You note how this shows that a community can organize, but the problem is, I question how many people are dedicated to the group, and how many are just joining it on a whim, or joining it because their friends tell them to.

Either way, interesting article.

Doug:

Walking_Target:
Meanwhile the bulk of our membership really just want's Valve to fix L4D and provide what they said they would in the first place.

Can you link to these promises? I've heard alot of boycotters stating that, but frankly, I've never seen any of them expand on the point and show what was promised.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3170080

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=891994

Here's the quote from 1up.com

It really feels like we're in this transition between entertainment as this packaged-goods phenomenon and entertainment as an ongoing service. TF2 is our product that's furthest along down this path -- we've been doing these updates every four to six weeks where we release new maps, new Achievements, new unlockables, new weapons, the movies like "Meet The Sniper," and so on. The response has been very strong. Each time we've done it, our multiplayer numbers and our sales have gone up by about 20 percent. So it's a way of growing an audience and developing an audience -- having those regular releases and thinking more of yourself as providing ongoing content streams seems to work really well. We fully intend to do that with Left 4 Dead as well -- [make] movies about each of the characters and how they came together as a team; what happened with the world when everything became Infected; [and] release new characters, new weapons, new campaigns -- and just view it as an ongoing audience-development content stream.

Here's the real lesson to take away from this: Chet Faliszek and Erik Wolpaw are the minds behind the most bitter & creative gaming website of all time: oldmanmurray.com. But they were interesting enough and smart enough that Valve eventually gave them jobs. If those hordes of internet whiners can actually produce something entertaining as a result of their hostility, they may wind up with a sweet gig like Chet & Erik as well.

I'm seriously ashamed to bear a similar steam friends name to the boycot administrator Walking_Target. He's only confined to 1 speed unlike me though :P

Walking_Target:

Doug:

Walking_Target:
Meanwhile the bulk of our membership really just want's Valve to fix L4D and provide what they said they would in the first place.

Can you link to these promises? I've heard alot of boycotters stating that, but frankly, I've never seen any of them expand on the point and show what was promised.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3170080

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=891994

Here's the quote from 1up.com

It really feels like we're in this transition between entertainment as this packaged-goods phenomenon and entertainment as an ongoing service. TF2 is our product that's furthest along down this path -- we've been doing these updates every four to six weeks where we release new maps, new Achievements, new unlockables, new weapons, the movies like "Meet The Sniper," and so on. The response has been very strong. Each time we've done it, our multiplayer numbers and our sales have gone up by about 20 percent. So it's a way of growing an audience and developing an audience -- having those regular releases and thinking more of yourself as providing ongoing content streams seems to work really well. We fully intend to do that with Left 4 Dead as well -- [make] movies about each of the characters and how they came together as a team; what happened with the world when everything became Infected; [and] release new characters, new weapons, new campaigns -- and just view it as an ongoing audience-development content stream.

The key word in that last sentence is "intend". Valve happened to change their intentions by adding elements to the game that would change it greatly in the form of a sequel, since the game couldn't really support all of that as DLC. Valve is most likely going to fulfill their previously stated intentions in Left 4 Dead 2, in which case you're going to limit yourself from buying the product that caught your attention to begin with.

Moving Target:
I'm seriously ashamed to bear a similar steam friends name to the boycot administrator Walking_Target. He's only confined to 1 speed unlike me though :P

Don't worry, I'm ashamed of you too ;)

Walking_Target:
Really, if Valve made a claim that they would be providing "Team Fortress 2 like support" and *any* copies of L4D were sold based on that claim, they do owe the community something.

And... do you know if this is indeed the case? Is there really a single person out there who saw the game and thought.. "mm.. nah.. I don't think so.. wait.. what's this, they're going to support it like Team Fortress 2? Well then! I'll just shell out my money.."

Pull the other one. It's got bells on.

And you try and get all high and mighty now, but the original list of demands had crap in there about how the music sucked in the L4D2 teaser. You were also claiming that you wanted all the material in L4D2 incorporated as a friggin' patch into L4D1. That's not "TF2 type support" that's "I'm a whiny bitch, and if you don't give me free stuff, I'm going to be upset."

Besides, what's wrong with Valve preventing you from buying or playing anything to do with L4D2? Isn't that your reason for existance? You should welcome such a move, as it would only strengthen your boycott.

Here's the deal. If you don't think a product is complete at the point of sale, *DO NOT BUY IT*. If you don't like what a product was once you bought it, *RETURN IT*. Can't return it? Then you've got a reason to boycott everything that company produces if it torques you off that much, not just a single product.

The reason I don't like you guys is because, sadly, you've gotten enough publicity so that when conversation with non-gamers (or at least, non L4D players) I know happens to turn to L4D as I try to convince friends to try it, I get "Isn't that the game people are boycotting for cause it sucks?" or "No, it sounds like the guys who play that are whiny 12 year olds.. I'll skip it, thanks." So your very existence has ruined some good gaming opportunities for me. Merci.

Now, that said, I do have to thank you guys for making my christmas shopping easier. If your boycott is still around by then, my gaming friends & family are all geting L4D2 as one of their presents.

I for one, bought L4D because of the support that Valve said was comming. So did a lot of other people in the boycott. Most reviewers even commented on the light amount of content in the game.

As for your other comments, I won'd deny that the group did not start out with the clearest set of goals at the outset, for about the first week. Once we had more folks on board we channeled things into what the real concerns for the majority of the members are and went from there.

Also, sorry to hear that some of your friends/family didn't want to buy a product that has thus far been supported poorly, maybe you'll have more luck getting them interested after some DLC/Bug fixes come.

Best of luck getting them involved with L4D2.

Pawzilla:
The problem with the L4D2 boycott is the idea of how many people are actually willing to boycott the game.

Though the group has around 40,000 members, how many are dedicated to the cause? If you look at any of their news posts, they get up to, at most, 100 posts. Sure, they have comments on their page upwards of 9,000, but many don't really deal with want to boycott.

You note how this shows that a community can organize, but the problem is, I question how many people are dedicated to the group, and how many are just joining it on a whim, or joining it because their friends tell them to.

Either way, interesting article.

And how many are skewing the message, thinking this is just an excuse for a hate party? I cheer for Valve for doing this, and Walking_Target standing on his message, because it has legitimacy. Those who are in the group who just wanna say 'I hate Valve!' don't have legitimacy. Don't let the haters skew what you know about the boycott group. I am not a member, but I respect their position.

JugglerPanda:
The key word in that last sentence is "intend". Valve happened to change their intentions by adding elements to the game that would change it greatly in the form of a sequel, since the game couldn't really support all of that as DLC. Valve is most likely going to fulfill their previously stated intentions in Left 4 Dead 2, in which case you're going to limit yourself from buying the product that caught your attention to begin with.

So you didn't read anything of the article or Walking_Target's responses in this forum? Valve has stated that it will support Left4Dead, and not just by releasing Left4Dead 2. That would be like saying, 'I will support your computer that you spent $800 on with a new computer that will cost $1000.' That's poor investment tactics which would kill sales of either game. W_T is doing what he can to keep Valve honest, which might be unnecessary but I like having someone that cares enough to take the time, even if its just for a game. (Cause right now L4D is my crack cocaine.)

Walking_Target:

Moving Target:
I'm seriously ashamed to bear a similar steam friends name to the boycot administrator Walking_Target. He's only confined to 1 speed unlike me though :P

Don't worry, I'm ashamed of you too ;)

now i feel bad for writting that... didn't really mean to sound disrespectful :S wasn't exactly thinking "internet is not random private thoughts place". don't normaly try to say anything like that out loud, but i can't help but feel betrayal towards Valve from boycotters. they've never majorly dissapointed before and i'm holding true to my faith in them, which is why i won't support a boycott.

good luck anyway with your cause. a discount for L4D owners would be a good idea i'll admit, but i'm buying anyway, discount or no.

Walking_Target:
-snip-

All the claims that you stated above HAVE been fulfilled. They DID add a new level and they're adding another one soon. If I remember correctly, Valve is releasing new DLC soon and said there's more to come after that. My Gears of War analogy doesn't prove anything for you, seeing as they didn't release any DLC during the Gears 2 production. The only thing they said that they even intended on doing that they didn't was make videos about each of the characters. That's really not important at all.

If you wanted added story, Left 4 Dead 2 is supposed to have more of a story element to it. Left 4 Dead 2 is so different of a game that there is no way that they could have added this as DLC to the first one without changing the game as a whole.

Where are the new weapons and infected then?

All of this for a $50 game. It's pathetic. It really is. There comes a point in every drawn-out protest-like endeavor where it becomes more about attention than the goal, and this boycott passed that point a long time ago.

Walking_Target:
Why get TF2 when you can have Peggle Extreme?

I enjoyed talking with Andy and explaining our actual position. The unfortunate thing is that some of the more... vocal folks are also the ones who disparage Valve at every turn. Meanwhile the bulk of our membership really just want's Valve to fix L4D and provide what they said they would in the first place.

Oh. Well, that's somewhat more legitimate than I had thought the boycott was, but it still strikes me as whining over a company which already supports their products far beyond the point most companies do because they're supporting one slightly less, although still more than most companies. Still, better than the people who claim to hate Valve now because they aren't quite living up to the outrageously high standards they set for themselves.

Walking_Target:
Where are the new weapons and infected then?

I'm sorry, but that strikes me as splitting hairs, almost like you're browsing the original pre-L4D hype specifically to find things to hate. It is entirely possible that those were simply the aspirations that Valve had, which they then found out would be really hard to add as DLC. Frankly, between that and the new AI Director, I see more than enough reason to have a sequel.

All of the above said, I have some respect for you. At least your reasons to protest seem thought out, and not too unreasonable, and you seem to be admirably sticking to your conviction. I still think you're holding Valve to an unbelievably high standard though, far higher than you would set for another company.

I think if someone doesn't like the way a company handles their product they should either try and get a job there to make changes, start their own company, or shut the fuck up and not be such babies. Taking it upon yourself to try and get a business to give you what you want is ascenine and juvenile, and shows you are too immature to handle disappointment. The world doesn't revolve around you.

L4D boycotts are for underdeveloped boys.

quiet_samurai:
I think if someone doesn't like the way a company handles their product they should either try and get a job there to make changes, start their own company, or shut the fuck up and not be such babies. Taking it upon yourself to try and get a business to give you what you want is ascenine and juvenile, and shows you are too immature to handle disappointment. The world doesn't revolve around you.

You're right in some aspects, but I don't think you outrightly bashing them is justified either.

Valve is a gaming company, and as such their main concern is us, gamers/consumers, as such, to keep consumers, you make statements and promises that should be followed through on. You're saying that we, the consumer, shouldn't whine at companies for their decisions, but we are the consumer, the one buying their product, and as such we have a right to express our opinions on their product. The Boycott group has legitimate reasons for concern, and it's nice that Valve took note of this and made an attempt to address these concerns.

And yes, it is true that as consumers we can choose not to buy their product, but that doesn't exactly help out the company at all so, yeah.

Valve did state that they would provide numerous updates for L4D, and so far only one DLC pack is being made. In the 10 months the game has been out, that seems a little lacking.

It was a bad move on their part to say, "Hey, rather than at least work a little bit on new L4D content, lets just make a new game engine with more stuff." The fact that they decided to immediately work on a sequel, and announce it just 7 months after the original game's release is a little bit absurd.

I'm not saying it's wrong, and it's completely up to them in their decision to make a sequel, it just seems like they were less concerned with the community and more concerned about just making a game.

Anyway, no, I don't agree with a boycott against L4D2 but still, their concerns are real, and should not be put down as being a bunch of whiny kids.

To just bash the group without saying anything to back yourself up, or to not even argue their concerns are illegitimate, is being even more whiny.

I joined the boycott not cause i dont want l4d2 to come out because i want them to fix the problems with l4d1 and to have the 2 other maps we were promised (filling the gaps between maps like crash coarse is doing) and to get some new weapons i would like to see maybe an extra SI but its not a big deal if i dont i think L4D and L4D2 will be diffrent enough that both games will stil be played still cant wait for l4d2 and as soon as i can get it off steam im buying it!!!

When I read they sent two people to their headquarters I thought "hey thats really cool of them, I cant imagine this boycott really going on much further". Hearing this however I am kinda scared as to what some of these boycotters would be willing to do.

Overall if their demands arent being met let them continue boycotting. I still have yet to give L4D the time of day. To me if the valve wants to do something let them do it. Im still waiting for these stinking half-life episodes to get over so we can move on in life and potentially see a half-life 3 in my lifetime.

This whole boycott business has been great entertainment, so I thank them for that. Free advertising is a good thing. lol Anyway, video gamers with ideals, that is funny. Maybe they should have put their money into something other than games if the real complaint is having to buy a new "sequel" so soon, I guess these "gamers" don't buy games often? Even if Valve did actually plan to abandon L4D 1 in Nov. 2009, how many games do you have that you really play a year later? Yes, I thought that many. Well at least it will mean less congested servers for the rest of us on L4D 2. he-ha!

People seek radical solutions even if they aren't the best, in a situation of despiration. Or if the people in question feel despired.

Walking_Target:
...Meanwhile the bulk of our membership really just want's Valve to fix L4D and provide what they said they would in the first place.

Hi Walking_Target.

Can you elaborate on this statement. My perception of the boycott group so far is that a large percentage of members are purely leaping on the band wagon with no deep desire for the cause.

Also, I've noticed lately (sadly, but not unexpected) that the number of people playing L4D has dropped significantly. In your mind is this down to a lack of support through DLC, or people moving on to other games as usual?

In relation to this - adding DLC to the game would cause a brief spike in the number of returning players. Releasing a new game for Christmas would introduce an influx of new players. As the L4D community is already dropping and you're not opposed to a new game coming out, surely pushing more DLC onto the previous game will just fragment the community further?

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here