Twilight of the She-Geeks

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Only good media has a basis other than sexual fantasies.
/thread

Therumancer:
MovieBob:

Irregardless of what you might think of me (if you've even read any of my stuff) I have a great deal of respect for you, but I think your a little off here on some of this.

Men and women aren't THAT differant when you get down to it. A lot of the Twilight images you've seen look like gay porn because on a lot of levels that is what they are. Women get off on that kind of thing the same way dudes get off on lesbians. It's a heavy subtext in a lot of the Paranormal romance stuff directed at women.

To put things into perspective there are plenty of images of erotic images of men directed at women. If you take a walk over a few aisles from the Sci-Fi/Fantasy/comics/RPing stuff in your local Waldenbooks you'll find the "chicks section" where they keep all the romance novels. Harlequins, etc... all of which feature pictures of attractive men in various erotic (though not overtly pornographic) poses with women, none of whom seem especially gay. Fabio (who is not aging gracefully apparently) became famous for posing for this kind of artwork, and allegedly Antonio Banderas did also before his film career. You'll also find artists like Julie Bell who draw all these perfectly formed guys without making them jump off the page as "wow, that's flaming".

Now, I'm not a photographer, but there is an artwork to that kind of thing that can make a picture say things without saying them. Use of light, color, lenses, whatever, but a good artist or photographer can convey a certain flavor of sexuality without being blatent about it. However it was done, those Twilight promotions ARE flaming. I get the same kind of impression from a lot of them, and honestly it's not some kind of discomfort due to the objectification of men or whatever because again I an look at artwork by guys like Frank Frazetta or Boris Valejo [SP] without getting the same impression. Ditto for other guys like say Van Damme showing off their awesome builds in photos for movies (well when they did movies like that which were good enough to actually see posters produced).

I tend to see it as the same thing when you take a couple of actresses and have them crawl over each other in a suggestive fashion or strike a suggestive pose which has nothing to do with the characters they play. The characters aren't lesbians but you as a guy are supposed to get that vibe. This is the same thing, and it's just shot that way, but in the opposite direction. You couldn't take a Frazetta picture of Conan or a Fabio shot and have it "pass" for the cover of a gay porn movie, but you COULD do that with some of the Twilight pics.

Just my thoughts, apologies about the length. I won't go off about fantasy art in general since this is long already. I just wanted to pretty much say that I don't think you or your friends are alone in getting that vibe, but at the same time I don't think anything is being projected onto that. Men have been as objectified as women if you know where to look and those promotions are stylized in a very specific way.

A. irregardless isn't a word. think about it.

B. Gay porn is for gay men. Most women do not like to see dudes doing each other. Trust me.

C. Just because the werewolf and the vampire are portrayed to be sexually attractive, doesn't mean that they are meant to be gay. In fact, they are not gay at all. Even if the entire werewolf clan or whatever came out completely buck naked, they wouldn't be gay. Now, if they started to make sexual advances on each other then they would be gay.

D. Movie Bob said that his first reaction was "That's gay," when he saw how the guys in twilight are portrayed, but then he said that it only seemed gay to him because he wasn't used to seeing males viewed in that light by mainstream movies. No matter how much you want them to be, an entire tribe of scantily clad amazons appearing in screen together aren't automatically lesbians. Or even meant to be seen as such.

i have no clue why Twighlight was soooo popular and loved. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good movie, im just saying its not that good to get all hyped up about it

MovieBob:
Thus, having caught myself in a less-uncharacteristic-than-I'd-like-it-to-be moment of Tucker Max behavior...

So someone else has read that unholy bible. I feel slightly less autophobic.

It was still a good read, though.

Miki91:

spartan773:
Dear God this Twilight fandom has gotten out of control, it's spreading like a plague amongst the ranks of female nerds everywhere. It's a bloody epidemic!

Indeed, it's about time we started burning people and causing fear trough the media, right?

No. more like smacking some sense into Hollywood and Stephanie Meyer.

very true, but here's my argument

when we make fictional women ultra busty and hot, women complain.

when women make fictional guys ultra buff and tanned, we laugh.

Case in point: Men have a better sense of humor than women.

I've heard over and over again from fellow (male) gamers that Twilight is terrible, awful, unoriginal, and various other derogative terms. Thing is, I honestly don't understand where all the bias hate is coming from. I watched the first film with no expectations for it be good, or bad. I was just curious what it was about because my wife was interested in it. And as it turns out, I really enjoyed the movie.

Maybe a lot of the disdain for the series is because it's mostly popular with females, and as males, some of us may feel threatened by the lustful portrayal of the leading men. That can automatically lead to contempt for something, even if you haven't watched or read the source material. And once you feel that contempt, it's incredibly hard to actually sit down and watch the movie without tainted eyes. All of which is absolutely no different from some women who feel threatened by the popularity of video games among males. Video games which all depict women as sexual objects with massive tits and tiny waists.

I guess what I'm saying is this: if you go into it with a chip on your shoulder, you're only going to "confirm" your feeling about how terrible the series is, no matter what. But if you actually open your mind a little, you might just discover that it's a pretty good story after all.

shadowstriker86:
very true, but here's my argument

when we make fictional women ultra busty and hot, women complain.

when women make fictional guys ultra buff and tanned, we laugh.

Case in point: Men have a better sense of humor than women.

We do? I don't, and I have yet to hear any of my fellow female gamers complain about women in games being "ultra busty and hot". I quite frankly don't care, and I have never felt it has threatened my sexuality in any way. And I laugh at the ultra buff and tanned fictional guys too, what do you make of that?:p

DRADIS C0ntact:

I guess what I'm saying is this: if you go into it with a chip on your shoulder, you're only going to "confirm" your feeling about how terrible the series is, no matter what. But if you actually open your mind a little, you might just discover that it's a pretty good story after all.

I did watch this movie thinking it would be awesome. Many of my friends said it was soooo great. I really think the hours spent watching it was wasted. But maybe I just don't "get" they story. And btw I really didn't care for the female main character, she doesn't belong in the 21st century at all. But this is my opinion. I don't blame you for liking it, thankfully your not just like me, we are both individuals!

I think both men and women might feel threatened by how these fictional characters are portrayed, or supermodels that are "perfect". It's sort of in human nature to feel insecure, and when men construct "the perfect woman" girls might be fustrated that they can't live up to that standard. I'm sure loads of men feel the same way when they look at male icons like Brad Pitt and Tom Hanks. I think this doesn't go for all that many, but for some it does. Being super-attractive has become very important for both sexes in the past years, and I think games and other forms of fiction often base their character off the "perfect human". Me, I don't give a fuck. What you get is a flat-chested, lazy and video gaming nerdy brunette, if you can't handle that you got nothing to do in my apartment ;)Of course I would like to feel somewhat comfortable with my body, but I do. I don't have a problem with not being a 6 foot blonde with double D's!

I see I'm way off course here, but you get my point. I hope... If you manage to decipher what I just wrote let me know^^

I've thought about this too, but honestly, I dont approve of either. Sure, I LIKE scantily clad women, but I still prefer it when said scantily clad woman actually brings something to a story other than just eye candy. Same thing can be said about Edward and his ilk of paper thin blow up dolls.

If any guys here have girls who want them to see it together, go watch if only to say afterwards...
"I'm breaking up with you, that movie has shown me just how hot men are and I am no longer interested in girls."

Cracked did a good bit on Twilight; http://www.cracked.com/funny-36-twilight/

It's not the homoerotic imagery suggested by the movies or the books, nor the bad acting. I don't like it because they took one of the most bloodthirsty and visceral icons in movie history and turned them into a bunch of whiny wussy weaklings.

DRADIS C0ntact:
I guess what I'm saying is this: if you go into it with a chip on your shoulder, you're only going to "confirm" your feeling about how terrible the series is, no matter what. But if you actually open your mind a little, you might just discover that it's a pretty good story after all.

While I certainly hate the novels/films on principle alone, and would never intentionally read or watch either, I have overheard the first film from being in an adjoining room while my sister and her friends were watching it - I am not in any way exaggerating when I say that was literally the worst acting I have ever heard in my entire life (that was not in a pornographic film and thus excused because those are expected to be terrible). My mother, who was in the room watching the film, later commented that the acting was so horrible that the whole thing felt like watching a Spanish soap opera if all the fun was leached out via some unholy procedure (my mom is awesome sometimes).

What your post tells me is that you genuinely have terrible taste, but nice try at tricking the sensible readers into watching that abomination!

Holy crap Bob you nailed it and now I feel guilty and so should every other male nerd out there for we did this to ourselves, it is our fault twilight succeeds.(I sound like a crazy man yelling repent)

But I don't write books and can't draw so I don't make comics and have never published anything or had the rights to anything be bought from me so technically I'm not at fault. But at the same time I never put out anything better than twilight for girls to enjoy and I could put out a 5min film about pecans and outdo twilight's writing.

Miki91:

jboking:

Okay, I can respect how hard it is for the girl geeks. However, the ones that I hang out with have been making fun of me for years for watching science fiction movies with rather impressively endowed women. These same geeks love the Twilight series. Would it be wrong of me to call foul?

I don't see how it would be hard for the girl geeks, really. But the Twilight series would naturally appeal to many, especially teenage, girls because of all the sex-objects in it! I think you have all right to make fun of them back, IMO it's exactly the same as you paying special intrest in Sam Carter from Stargate SG1 for example ;) (I like her, she's smart:p). And in stargate I think it's a lot more candy for the girls. I mean Teal'c and "MacGyver" are both awesome, but I used to have the biggest crush on Daniel Jackson^^. Not all geeky girls like geeks tho. Where am I going with this? I really thought I had an answer for your question in here! Well, good luck anyway.

Stargate SG1, a poster after my own heart.

You did give your advice on the situation though, and it's the same conclusion I came to. If they feel like hounding me for watching certain sci fi shows with attractive women(and occasionally getting a little distracted by said women) then I believe I have full right to perform the same hounding for them enjoying the Twilight series movies.

This article was very confusing. Apparently the point, whether intentionally or not, was to say that the only thing women expect from scifi/fantasy is the same stuff found in trashy romance novels. And if they can't find it, it's totally unfair.

Is that about right?

Last time I checked, scifi/fantasy has nothing to do with the bullshit peddled by Twilight.

MmmFiber:

B. Gay porn is for gay men. Most women do not like to see dudes doing each other. Trust me.

Well, I wouldn't say that's entirely true. There is a large female fallowing of what is known as "yaoi". Which is essentially gay anime porn.

Snip

sunpop:
Holy crap Bob you nailed it and now I feel guilty and so should every other male nerd out there for we did this to ourselves, it is our fault twilight succeeds.(I sound like a crazy man yelling repent)

But I don't write books and can't draw so I don't make comics and have never published anything or had the rights to anything be bought from me so technically I'm not at fault. But at the same time I never put out anything better than twilight for girls to enjoy and I could put out a 5min film about pecans and outdo twilight's writing.

Also, I never bought Leisure Suit Larry, Dead or Alive, or Ninja Gaiden, so I wasn't even supporting that arm of the media.

Great article Bob, really got me thinking. And that is difficult to do, just ask anyone who knows me!

Doug:

Blade sneaked up behind the Vampire, feet carefully positioned each step of the way to avoid twigs. A false step made a light crackle in the pre-dawn air and Blade froze, hand on his sword. Fortunately, the whiny kid and the wet girl where too busy angst chatter with "Love waits" overtones.

He moved slowly, creeping closer and closer. About 1 metre away from the 'happy' couple, the dawn broke and the kid sparkled. "What the FUCK", thought Blade, "He should be in FLAMES, damnit."

Out loud, he said, "Fuck it" and cut the sparkly whiners head off.

Then the puddle girl attacked! With wave upon wave of passive aggressive whining, Blade felt his mind turning to goo. "FUCK" he shouted and fell to the ground, trying deseperately to lift the blade, "Die damnit, dieeeee!"

Just then, a giant train of a wolf came through the forest and turned into a topless bronze boy with 60 abs, "Oh, how terrible, looks like he's dead. Let me comfort you, my puddly girl"

This was deseperate. Blade could feel himself sinking into a tween 'romance' 'novel'. With his last ounces of strength, he pulled out a grenade, and popped the pin....

That was fantastic, loved the ending. Do it properly and publish it, I PROMISE to buy it :P

sry for the triple post, goddam router firewall is fucking with me

goddamit all, i hate that firewall my flatmate has put on the router, banning me from everything fun and refusing to let me post stuff...

Hey mods, if u can, cud u delete this post and the previous one?

Here's a little game: Open up Google, go to Images, and type in "Sephiroth". Note how he is not wearing a shirt.

Now, why do you think he's the most popular Final Fantasy villain, particularly with female fans?

So. Girls like fanservice too. Who knew, eh?

Wow, Moviebob hit it right on the nail.

However, despite women fantasies of having a guy with good looking sculpted body structure, they need to improve its writing instead of having a female protagonist being one dimensional of wanting to be affected. The ideas of vampire and werewolf in a conflict are good but it depends what they put into it. Sadly, that's not the case for guys who watch this and see guys who are werewolves take off their clothes to morph to a werewolf to avoid being savage.

Doug:
Also, I never bought Leisure Suit Larry, Dead or Alive, or Ninja Gaiden, so I wasn't even supporting that arm of the media.

Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden was a waste of money and time, both horrible games. And this game X-blades? To me it looks as if they made the characters ass first, and then moulded it around it! And the american voice acting is the worst in ages IMO...

GloatingSwine:
Here's a little game: Open up Google, go to Images, and type in "Sephiroth". Note how he is not wearing a shirt.

I did, and he was wearing a shirt on the entire first page of results^^. I get your point tho, and yes; there are plenty of fan service for girls. Guys in general just don't look for it, but if you do into your next anime, movie or game with your mind set on looking for fan service for females I'm sure you'll find it (well, depends on the movie, game or anime/manga.)!

What happened to great movies? Like the badass Terminator and Die Hard. And games like Lucas Arts' Outlaws? I'm not saying Terminator and Die Hard didn't have some eye candy, but at least the main focus was on kicking the bad guys ass! And games needs to learn from the old days. I'm not saying go back there, cause most of the old games could stand to be a hundred times better... But get back the balance, cause so many new games today are waaaay off:p

Thank you for taking this movie down.

I swear all the other movie review are in on some kind of conspiracy to make this movie seam good.

Bad art is just bad art, but what Stephanie Meyer (and her publisher, and Summit) are doing amounts to selling tainted water to an audience that's dying of thirst in the desert. Plus, they're driving down the value of the genre even further by occupying it. Anyone trying to pitch a good female-centric supernatural romance franchise will inevitably have their work compared to "Twilight" and taken less seriously as a result.

Goddamn he is so right about MW... I mean Twilight. It's not that it's just crap, it's actually dumbing down what could have been a decent story/book. I flipped through a couple books and man I would rather let my kids read Tales from the Crypt comics. At least that's decently written. It's just idiotic garbage. I felt my IQ dropping just trying to get through a chapter. I wasn't able to finish the twilight film because my face melted off my skull about 10min in. I was barely able to finish it when rifftrax redid it. http://www.rifftrax.com/

GloatingSwine:
Here's a little game: Open up Google, go to Images, and type in "Sephiroth". Note how he is not wearing a shirt.

Now, why do you think he's the most popular Final Fantasy villain, particularly with female fans?

So. Girls like fanservice too. Who knew, eh?

But even guys go nuts about sephiroth even tho we all know vivi is the best not that there is any competition.

But thanks for pointing this out now I know the key to womenz is don't wear a shirt well I will up the ante and go around without pants.

Update: the cops beat me don't do it

I tried reading Twilight once, and discovered something curious. I couldn't retain what I read. It passed through my mind and made no impact. It was like trying to eat air. I hadn't encountered writing like that outside of scientific papers before, and I was baffled to find it in a work of popular fiction.

However, I respect the Twilight series, for this reason: Twilight showed Hollywood that Non-Sex Sells. Sure, the characters are hot and shirtless and in love and angst, but there's no sex, just romance and teen confusion and so on. Twilight is actually a step down in terms of objectification, and the fact that it's making bank gives me hope for the future of entertainment that isn't porn.

I admire Stephanie Meyers for that. I won't read her books, but I'm glad they exist.

This idea of women objectifying men for their own sexual fantasies though visual and written media is nothing new, the difference is that men and male geeks are given disproportial amounts of shit for it.

It's sad and pathetic for us, but oh wow, it's somehow magicly different and better when the female geeks mess their panties over yaoi comics, some femme guy in a movie, or another vampire novel with obvious homoerotic undertones.

another difference: When it comes to "dangerous and sexy" characters in entertainment, the male characters, though evil fall in love with teenage emo-girls, the female characters use their sexuality to kill guys

i'm simply terrified by your article here. why? because now i feel a sort of need to read the books just to know how terrible they are.

that's what keeps me up at night.

MagusVulpes:
i'm simply terrified by your article here. why? because now i feel a sort of need to read the books just to know how terrible they are.

that's what keeps me up at night.

Here's a taster

In that second, I wished that I was not the one exception to his mysterious talent; I usually felt grateful that I was the only person whose thoughts he couldn't hear just as clearly as if they were spoken aloud. But now I wished he could hear me, too, so that he could hear the warning I was screaming in my head.

or

I was like a lost moon-my planet destroyed in some cataclysmic, disaster-movie scenario of desolation-that continued, nevertheless, to circle in a tight little orbit around the empty space left behind, ignoring the laws of gravity.

Make up your own mind.

Edit: I ran a readability check on the last sentence.

Coleman Liau index : 12.71
Flesh Kincaid Grade level : 19.72
ARI (Automated Readability Index) : 21.00
SMOG : 19.43
Flesch Reading Ease : 21.33

Which means you need a Grade 12 or 13 (US) to read it.

For the Flesch Reading Ease, an eleven year old girl would need a FRE of >90, Florida REQUIRES that even Life Insurance Forms have a FRE of >45.

To be far though, I ran the same test on MovieBob's review.

Approximate representation of the U.S. grade level needed to comprehend the text :
Coleman Liau index : 12.13
Flesh Kincaid Grade level : 14.06
ARI (Automated Readability Index) : 15.08
SMOG : 13.83

Flesch Reading Ease : 41.55

And remember, he's using phrases like pretzel-logic and less-uncharacteristic-than-I'd-like-it-to-be.

One thing: waaaaaaaaaay too many hyphens.
Good article otherwise, though. I know very, very close to nothing about the Twilight series, so it's good to get an account of what all the fuss is about from someone who's experienced the horror firsthand.

Casual Shinji:
That was quite a mirror you were holding there.

I do kinda like how Twilight is taking the wind out of Harry Potter's sails.
Al of a sudden the tween girls don't give a sh*t about Harry anymore.

Always try to make the best out of a bad situation.

Ha Twilight beats Harry Potter 6 at least... That movie was crap compared to Twilight. The only good thing was the tiny amount of special effects which oviously Twilight lacks... Other then that, id rather watch Twlight 16 times in a row then re-watch Harry Potter 6 again. They ruined that movie.

The_root_of_all_evil:

MagusVulpes:
i'm simply terrified by your article here. why? because now i feel a sort of need to read the books just to know how terrible they are.

that's what keeps me up at night.

Here's a taster

In that second, I wished that I was not the one exception to his mysterious talent; I usually felt grateful that I was the only person whose thoughts he couldn't hear just as clearly as if they were spoken aloud. But now I wished he could hear me, too, so that he could hear the warning I was screaming in my head.

or

I was like a lost moon-my planet destroyed in some cataclysmic, disaster-movie scenario of desolation-that continued, nevertheless, to circle in a tight little orbit around the empty space left behind, ignoring the laws of gravity.

Make up your own mind.

My brain is bleeding - the laws of gravity have no place in romance. At least, not like this.

Edit: I ran a readability check on the last sentence.

Coleman Liau index : 12.71
Flesh Kincaid Grade level : 19.72
ARI (Automated Readability Index) : 21.00
SMOG : 19.43
Flesch Reading Ease : 21.33

Which means you need a Grade 12 or 13 (US) to read it.

For the Flesch Reading Ease, an eleven year old girl would need a FRE of >90, Florida REQUIRES that even Life Insurance Forms have a FRE of >45.

To be far though, I ran the same test on MovieBob's review.

Approximate representation of the U.S. grade level needed to comprehend the text :
Coleman Liau index : 12.13
Flesh Kincaid Grade level : 14.06
ARI (Automated Readability Index) : 15.08
SMOG : 13.83

Flesch Reading Ease : 41.55

And remember, he's using phrases like pretzel-logic and less-uncharacteristic-than-I'd-like-it-to-be.

What are these readiblity tests? Some computer program that analyses the text?

Doug:

What are these readiblity tests? Some computer program that analyses the text?

Each has their own Wikipedia pages but basically the FRE is
image

Short, low syllable sentences work well.

Anarchemitis:

JeanLuc761:
I just have a problem when it's done this poorly.

And to this end, I have nothing to read in the paper when I ride the bus to work every morning because I live in Vanouver and New Moon is being filmed in like Surrey. Or Chilliwack. Something East of me.
(map)

Both, actually... Although I've seen a film crew or two locally. As a new-india (I mean surrey) resident, It feels like I'm in the center of the craze.

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