Achievement Whoredomination

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Achievement Whoredomination

How can anybody in their right mind think World of Warcraft's Achievements are for "casual gamers" anymore?

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The dedication of the people who do these things like try to beat WoW scare me. It seems as though in another life they could have been Kamikaze pilots.

Awww, Funk. You never got the Red Proto-Drake? Me either.

Achievements have never really been for "casuals" in any game. They give a lot of replay value to games, but catering the the "casual gamer"? I don't really see it. When is a "casual" gamer going to rack up 10000 ranked, online kills in Gears of War? What "casual" is going to find every single flag in Assassin's Creed? People who say that achievements always cater to "casuals" need to rethink their mindset.

Can I argue that WoW doesn't cater so much to "casual" players as much as it does to bad players?

Gxas:
Awww, Funk. You never got the Red Proto-Drake? Me either.

Achievements have never really been for "casuals" in any game. They give a lot of replay value to games, but catering the the "casual gamer"? I don't really see it. When is a "casual" gamer going to rack up 10000 ranked, online kills in Gears of War? What "casual" is going to find every single flag in Assassin's Creed? People who say that achievements always cater to "casuals" need to rethink their mindset.

Can I argue that WoW doesn't cater so much to "casual" players as much as it does to bad players?

I don't think it does that, either.

My guild is very much a casual raiding guild. Twice a week, three hours tops. We haven't cleared Ulduar but we farm ToC. I think we're skilled players (Well, most of us) but we just don't have the time to go for any of the uberhard content. That's the type of person who I think WotLK was catering to the most, and it's something I can appreciate.

Is it not very insulting to claim that this guy has no life?
For all we know, he just found a way to quickly beat all of the achivements and dedicated a small portion of his life to doing just that.

Odd, yes, but so is collecting stamps and such.

I love the WoW achievements. They take time and effort to get (mostly) so I actually like them. If the guy wanted to do it then we shouldn't judge him. I certainly would chase the achievements if I could.

Booze Zombie:
Is it not very insulting to claim that this guy has no life?
For all we know, he just found a way to quickly beat all of the achivements and dedicated a small portion of his life to doing just that.

Odd, yes, but so is collecting stamps and such.

Er.

There's really no quick way to beat some of these. For example, the 100 mounts one requires you to get some of the rare mounts at ~1% drop rate off of a certain boss.

It's possible that this man has the luck of the devil, but let's be real here. That, plus topping the arena charts in not one but three brackets takes insane effort on its own.

Strangely, I'm glad I'm not him. If I woke up one day and realized I had every achivement in WoW... I can't imagine what I'd do!(go insane in one way or an other I'm sure...)

Achivements have always been for the hardcore. Yes, some are easy to get, but those are just a little taste of it. The real achivements are the ones you have to work your ass off for!

I honestly can't imagine why anyone would find that a worthwhile thing to do. Granted, I'm not too keen on the MMO genre to begin with, but continuously doing the same things over and over to get ultra-rare drops for achievements sounds like it would get exceptionally boring.

If being a hardcore gamer means sacrificing fun, screw that!

Yes..The best and most popular MMO is total shit. None of the 12 million subscribers play it.

ark123:
Do people still play this? It looks like shit.

Uh.

That would be a resounding "yes."

Gxas:
Awww, Funk. You never got the Red Proto-Drake? Me either.

Achievements have never really been for "casuals" in any game. They give a lot of replay value to games, but catering the the "casual gamer"? I don't really see it. When is a "casual" gamer going to rack up 10000 ranked, online kills in Gears of War? What "casual" is going to find every single flag in Assassin's Creed? People who say that achievements always cater to "casuals" need to rethink their mindset.

Can I argue that WoW doesn't cater so much to "casual" players as much as it does to bad players?

True that not all achievements are exactly casual friendly, but many times achievements are for little things, like your first boss fight, or even finishing the game on a certain difficulty. For the most part, achievements, specially in MMOs, ARE meant towards the casual players. Those people who get those world-first kills and such didn't need achievements in the first place to do that, now its just a nice extra for them.

Just because there's one achievement out of 30 that rewards the more dedicated, doesn't automatically make all achievements anti-casual.

Besides, a "bad" player is subjective. You could argue that, just like I could argue someone is a good raider, or a holier-than-thou me-get-everytin dbag with no life.

I got my fair share of achievement points, even some of the hardcore solo achievements. I gave up the game when I realised this wasn't something I wanted to do: spend all my free time on something that was boring to get a small feeling of accomplishment then move onto the next achievement. I've never even thought about going back because if I do, I'll probably get sucked into the vortex of achievements. Are they for casual gamers? No, not really. You get them as you level up but you never really go for them as you do it.

ark123:
Do people still play this? It looks like shit.

11,000,000 going strong.

Now get outta here troll, unless you've blue skin, massive tusks and an accent to die for.

ark123:
Do people still play this? It looks like shit.

...

Fuck it im not going to feed the troll, anyways. The world of warcraft achievement system is a little something for everybody. Casual pvp, hardcore pvp, casual non combat pet/mount collecting, hard-core non combat pet/mount collecting, Heh I just got an achievement, about bloody time, lucky, world events, things you did during a 2 second period that others didnt, killing/loving pets, casual raiding, hardcore raiding, grinding, reputations, exploration. Did I cover all of them?

(Answer no)

Wait, so at this point WoW was actually making it easier to the casuals and somehow from a blue moon, a guy managed to achieve everything.

Devoting quite a lot of time in this game is hardcore.

I mean, is there an achievement for slaughtering 1 billion boars? *Insert SP joke

The Red-Protodrake is for sale for 1800 gold with top faction from the Wyrmrest Temple in Dragonblight if I recall, nothing special about that. If you mean the VIOLET Protodrake, that one comes from getting every world event achievement for an entire year (ie being present for every holiday and completing all activities in the event). That's a bit tricky since it takes persistant, and some of the things like the Noble Garden egg-camping bit take a lot of time and dedication.

Otherwise I'm somewhere between hardcore and casual, though I've fit BOTH those roles in the past, as well as being a RPer for a while when I first joined my server (which is an RP server).

I have no real problem with achievements, but I feel that by making the game more casual friendly (when it was already THE casual friendly MMORPG) was a mistake. As things stand there is already a metric ton of casual content, the majority of the content has ALWAYS been for casual players. While hardcore players might only represent 10% of the population, I do feel that there should be something there for people who put in that kind of effort except for a slight notation on their sheet. I pretty much feel also that by catering to too casual a mentality it also discourages people from ever wanting to make the transition from casual to normal, or even hardcore.

To some extent I think the current mentality removes the specialness of a lot of the content. I mean there is nothing incredible about a super-dragon if pretty much anyone in the game can see, or defeat it. It's just not really all that super anymore. Knowing it's out there however is one of the things that motivates people to get that good.

Things being what they are, if I went back to casual play I'd probably think much the same way. Heck, to be honest if it wasn't for things like "old skhool" Onyxia and the like I never would have gotten the motivation to go as far as I did with attunements and such. I spent bloody weeks doing attunement runs for Ony, MC, and BWL to make sure we had enough people to fill 40 man raid groups just so we could get in the door.

Truthfully I think 10% of the content being something you have to work for is pretty "fair". It's not like it's truely off limits, it's simply there for people who want to play at that level.

Besides which as I've pointed out before, a lot of casual players who cry about not having uber-loot and such miss the entire point to an extent. In World Of Warcraft you can run around solo and hit level 80 without ever having to deal with another person to do a group quest or dungeon if you want to. You will be able to kill just about anything that is non-elite in the game with minimal effort just with green, single player loot rewards. If that's how your playing why the holy heck do you need ungodly epic gear? Nothing you fight requires stuff like that. In general a raider pretty much gets their "phat lewt" specifically so they can progress to kill a tougher tier of monsters that comes next (either out there or under development). It's an endless grind since there is always a bigger monster and a shinier tier of Lewt, coming up, but the thrill is to perform those precisian actions (breaking a fight, and then getting faster and faster, doing hard modes, etc...), the loot simply being a way of keeping the progression in order.

I find the idea of some guy crying about a lack of raid epix so they can whack world spawn murloc camps or whatever is kind of absurd. If your not interesting in hanging out with 10-25 (or previously 40) other dedicated people to kill "Internet Dragons" or even make fun of the idea, then really I feel you have no right to the loot... and by the same token you have the other 90% of the content to do whatever you want with through as many characters as you make.

Therumancer:
The Red-Protodrake is for sale for 1800 gold with top faction from the Wyrmrest Temple in Dragonblight if I recall, nothing special about that. If you mean the VIOLET Protodrake, that one comes from getting every world event achievement for an entire year (ie being present for every holiday and completing all activities in the event). That's a bit tricky since it takes persistant, and some of the things like the Noble Garden egg-camping bit take a lot of time and dedication.

You're thinking of the Red Drake mount. The Red Proto-Drake is a reward from this achievement.

I don't think that everyone should get the most uber loot by any stretch of the matter. But when they're putting HUGE amounts of their resources into developing content for 10% of the playerbase, that's incredibly idiotic. If I've been a Warcraft fan since WC3, I sure as bloody hell want to fight Arthas. And if I don't get to experience the end of the story without throwing my life away to a game, I'm going to be pissed.

I did the whole hardcore raider thing Pre-BC. I almost lost my life to this game.

The current way is hundreds of times better than Classic ever was.

Its the Red Drake, not the Red Proto Drake that you can buy.

The Red Proto Drake was from doing some crazy stuff in Naxx wasn't it?

As for that Achievement guy, I just found that crazy... but I never really liked the achievement system much anyways.

As for saying he has beat the game... that might not be true, there might still be gear he wants. :P
Oh and its not many days till he gets more to do :P

Ah, WoW.

I always leave.

AND IT ALWAYS PULLS ME BACK IN.

CantFaketheFunk:
The current way is hundreds of times better than Classic ever was.

Yeah but don't you miss that clique you were in in your 40 man guild where you badmouthed the other cliques in your own 40 man guild? Man those were the days. It was like high school in a raiding guild. *cough*

On topic *sort of*: [Achievement Earned] - Beat WoW (Collect all achievements in World of Warcraft)

"Alright! What's next?"

[Next Achievement] - Mr. Olympia (Collect the Mr. Olympia title)

It's people like this that strike me as the type that could do pretty much anything if they put their mind to it. Grats to him.

CantFaketheFunk:

Therumancer:
The Red-Protodrake is for sale for 1800 gold with top faction from the Wyrmrest Temple in Dragonblight if I recall, nothing special about that. If you mean the VIOLET Protodrake, that one comes from getting every world event achievement for an entire year (ie being present for every holiday and completing all activities in the event). That's a bit tricky since it takes persistant, and some of the things like the Noble Garden egg-camping bit take a lot of time and dedication.

You're thinking of the Red Drake mount. The Red Proto-Drake is a reward from this achievement.

I don't think that everyone should get the most uber loot by any stretch of the matter. But when they're putting HUGE amounts of their resources into developing content for 10% of the playerbase, that's incredibly idiotic. If I've been a Warcraft fan since WC3, I sure as bloody hell want to fight Arthas. And if I don't get to experience the end of the story without throwing my life away to a game, I'm going to be pissed.

I did the whole hardcore raider thing Pre-BC. I almost lost my life to this game.

The current way is hundreds of times better than Classic ever was.

I stand corrected on the Drakes.

When it comes to Arthas, well I think that sort of defines the problem right there. Arthas is one of the world wide big-bads, indeed the entire current world balance more or less revolves around him. He's epically powerful and BA. He is not the kind of opponent just anyone in the game should be able to walk in and fight, that would make the whole idea into a bloody joke if you had casual players running in and farming THE LICH KING!

If you feel it's something you really want to do, then arguably I'd consider it to be motivation to become powerful enough to accomplish the feat, rather than having it brought to you.

I consider what they did with Kael'Thas Sunstrider to be an example of why making the game casual friendly a bad idea. The guy is supposed to be epic in his badness right up there with Illidan, and is central to the entire "Blood Elf" racial storyline (despite me playing Alliance as a human). The final battle at the end of Tempest Keep was worthy of a villain of his stature... truely epic in scope. But it was very difficult and people cried "I made a BE and I can never finish the storyline, boo hoo" and so they made a 5 man instance where you could kill him as part of the whole "Shattered Sun Offensive" storyline. This meant that you had pretty much every character on the server killing him more or less every day for months. It just wasn't the way an epic villain should be. Heck the "PVP" fight before that was harder than he was, and that is just plain wrong.

While difficult to prove due to being borked out of the achievement, I was in my hardcore phase at the end of BC. My guild at the time (Curtain Call) was apparently the second guild to successfully kill Illidan on our server (Shadow Council <RP> ). I wound up retiring afterwards due to computer problems and did not return until the release of Lich King. I did not get an achievement because I was never fortunate enough to win any loot off of him, and also missed stages of the quest with the amulet... and Blizzard linked all achievements to quests or items in your inventory (though I do have Kael'Thas, Vashj, and everything else up to that point... I just did them without the quest at the times I was there.. long story).

At any rate Illidan is like one of the ultimate BA dudes in Warcraft Lore, this is a guy that even managed to stand against Arthas briefly, and then pretty much turned around and conquered Draenor. Apparently after I left (having killed him like half a dozen times) they decided to nerf the entire thing to the point where everyone and their brother could go in and kill Illidan... Given the joyous screaming on guild chat when we finally pulled ahead of other guilds on the same "step" for defeating the Reliquery of Souls and stuff, all I can say when I think of people being HANDED that after all the work is "that sucks". Killing Illidan, Archimonde (which I DO have an achievment for due to having gotten loot), and other legends is NOT something that you should be able to do without a lot of bloody work and preserverance.

I mean honestly, if they turn Arthas into a bloody county fair dunking event, will that be worthy of a villain of his stature? No, that will make the entire bloody thing into a giant joke. I don't play hardcore enough to be even remotely close to one of the first, but to be honest I'm going to be disappointed if it doesn't take my 10 man raiding guild (Muse) some SERIOUS effort and practice to get to the guy, never mind bring him down.

If your a casual player you don't belong doing stuff like that, you belong out there fighting his legions of minions in the general world, and whacking murlocs and stuff. Nothing wrong with enjoying that, but turning Arthas into Van Cleef, or even Hogger so everyone can get a piece does absolutly NO justice to the game or the world setting.

The idea of 30 people running around at once all carrying Frostmourne (or pieces of it, or whatever) is exactly the kind of thing I do NOT want to see in the game.

At any rate I guess my overall point is that the 10% of content people complain about is something you simply need to work towards.... and honestly Arthas is pretty much the definition of something you should have to SERIOUSLY put some work into before you can bring him down.

No "Final Boss" is satisfying if he just keels over and dies from trivial effort.

This is a reflection of a smart business model, however, achievements are less important in non-MMORPG games.

I only do things in games if it makes sense within gameplay or roleplay.

It seems that people like me, in between hardcore and casual, are still a little left out of this equation.

It's just that achievement are fun to get. Not sure about that casual gamer accusation.

That guy -the one who got all the achievements- is just fuc*ed up.

I was a very casual WoW player for about 4 months. I never really looked at the achivements when I was leveling up.

As I was reaching the lasts levels (70-79) I started going to raids and stuff, but, again, never looked at the achievements.

Does someone really compares them and says "AH!, I have more achievements than you", that's just sad :p

My main entertainment on WoW was reaching new levels, exploring new lands and getting new stuff.

Aurgelmir:
The Red Proto Drake was from doing some crazy stuff in Naxx wasn't it?

The Black and Plauged Proto-Drakes were the ones from Glory of the Raider (which was the meta achievement for Naxx, Eye of Eternity, and Obsidian Sanctum) and when patch 3.1 launched they took out the ability to earn these mounts anymore.

I'm currently getting very close to my Glory of the Ulduar Raider Proto-Drake, and will hopefully have it in a week or two.

Yet, tomorrow 3.3 launches and there's another bad ass mount to farm for by achievements.

And then, there's Invincible

Therumancer:

CantFaketheFunk:

Therumancer:
The Red-Protodrake is for sale for 1800 gold with top faction from the Wyrmrest Temple in Dragonblight if I recall, nothing special about that. If you mean the VIOLET Protodrake, that one comes from getting every world event achievement for an entire year (ie being present for every holiday and completing all activities in the event). That's a bit tricky since it takes persistant, and some of the things like the Noble Garden egg-camping bit take a lot of time and dedication.

You're thinking of the Red Drake mount. The Red Proto-Drake is a reward from this achievement.

I don't think that everyone should get the most uber loot by any stretch of the matter. But when they're putting HUGE amounts of their resources into developing content for 10% of the playerbase, that's incredibly idiotic. If I've been a Warcraft fan since WC3, I sure as bloody hell want to fight Arthas. And if I don't get to experience the end of the story without throwing my life away to a game, I'm going to be pissed.

I did the whole hardcore raider thing Pre-BC. I almost lost my life to this game.

The current way is hundreds of times better than Classic ever was.

The idea of 30 people running around at once all carrying Frostmourne (or pieces of it, or whatever) is exactly the kind of thing I do NOT want to see in the game.

I agree with this 100%, and don't think every casual player who plays for a few hours a week should be able to defeat Arthas, the man who has completely turned the world around and wrecked havoc on everything. This man murdered his father, and destroyed all of Lordaeron, killing thousands of people.

He defeated Ilidan, and has bounded his soul with Ner'Zul's and taken control of the Scourge. This man is one of the most bad ass motherfuckers there is, and it will be laughable when truly casual players will be killing him.

And please don't give me this bullshit about "Well the hard modes are there for the hardecore players so its harder for them and gives them a challenge, yet everyone else can kill him!" because it doesn't make it right that one of the toughest, scariest, and evilest bastards in the game will be so easy to defeat.

Also, Blizzard has already said Frostmourne will not drop.

I already stated this in another thread and i got destroyed.....it was about the downfall of hardcore gaming, and it becoming mainstream

Zenode:
Gaming has been "mainstream" for a while now

a game can be for "enthusiasts" as much as you can make it, thats why they have Xbox achievements and Playstation trophy's so this hardcore audience can try and get these achievements by getting as good as they possibly can at the game.

Sure there are more casual games but certain elements within them also make for the enthusiasts as well.

I have never heard anyone say that... ever. The only gamers that care enough about a game to peak over every hill and find every scattered gold coin of obscureness are the hard core ones. Casual gamers have other things to do. They are the kind of people who spend an hour or so playing a fun diversion and then leave to go do something important. To the joy that comes with causing a game to turn a one to a zero and change a small jpg image to a color version in accomplishment is an alien concept. Who cares about meaningless little achievements when your world is bigger and gaming is just a quick diversion? Only a hardcore player cares. I suspect the hate and fear of "hardcore" gamers for casual gamers has something to do with this whole line of thought. (curse you you nerdy social recluses!)

Therumancer:

I stand corrected on the Drakes.

When it comes to Arthas, well I think that sort of defines the problem right there. Arthas is one of the world wide big-bads, indeed the entire current world balance more or less revolves around him. He's epically powerful and BA. He is not the kind of opponent just anyone in the game should be able to walk in and fight, that would make the whole idea into a bloody joke if you had casual players running in and farming THE LICH KING!

[...]

No "Final Boss" is satisfying if he just keels over and dies from trivial effort.

THough I believe we're about to find out tomorrow, I'll say my piece.

First, the Icecrown Citadel raid looks to be on par with Ulduar with respect to size and difficulty. With the extension on raid lockouts, what you'll likely see is a lot of raiding guilds doing a couple bosses a week and extending the raid lockout. This is a method that will be open to a vast majority of people but will still give it an epic feel. This will certainly prevent it from being "farmed".

Furthermore, it will have hard modes. You think you're in a serious raiding guild? Beat those. I know I'm not in one, and as much as I'd love to have those nice proto-drakes, I will probably never get them. That's no concern though, because I still will have a chance to "finish" the current storyline as it were. And honestly, everyone SHOULD have that chance. It's a game, not life.

ark123:
Do people still play this? It looks like shit.

you know whats great about it looking like shit?

everyone and their grandma can play it

also, with most games, it should be gameplay first, graphics second

based on your statement, im assuming your disappointed if everything doesnt look like crysis

good day to you sir

I really hate achievements in general, they have this self proclaimed value about them but the fact is they don`t value anything in the end. You cannot say it is fun getting them and if you wanna stack them just to show others you`re lifeless gamer expertise well, that`s just sad.

I play warcraft and I raid ten man content and have a good laugh. Im pretty casual but I never liked the idea of introducing the system, because of this added fact, maybe its my server but I always see this on /trade:

Raid [insert random] link acheivement.

Now, hows a casual gamer going to enjoy the game with THAT as a blockade for alot of people?

Agreeing with alot here, its madness.

It is madness. Why would someone want to dedicate so much of there time to completing the game?

I have to agree, the person who did it has no life, and certainly is in serious need of finding one...

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