Zero Punctuation: Demon's Souls

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Helba1984:

UnlimitedCreativity:

Level grinding to me is an absolute waste of time... I bought a game to play it, not to boringly replay the same levels to become powerful enough to tackle the next. To me thats lazy game design.

Wow. You should avoid every RPG ever made, because that genre isn't for you. Also never ever play D&D, and don't bother trying to play FF or DQ at all. Also avoid Oblivion and Morrowind, avoid KOTOR, avoid pretty much anything out of Bioware or Japan in general.

Go play Halo and stop complaining.

Level grinding is a waste of time and bad design because it usually serves no purpose other than to artificially lengthen the game. If you already beat a dungeon there is no reason why you shouldn't be powerful enough to take on the next. Thankfully most RPGs nowadays (even Bioware games) don't require grinding anymore.

Also, quadruple post??? Next time just use the edit button please.

boholikeu:

Helba1984:

UnlimitedCreativity:

Level grinding to me is an absolute waste of time... I bought a game to play it, not to boringly replay the same levels to become powerful enough to tackle the next. To me thats lazy game design.

Wow. You should avoid every RPG ever made, because that genre isn't for you. Also never ever play D&D, and don't bother trying to play FF or DQ at all. Also avoid Oblivion and Morrowind, avoid KOTOR, avoid pretty much anything out of Bioware or Japan in general.

Go play Halo and stop complaining.

Level grinding is a waste of time and bad design because it usually serves no purpose other than to artificially lengthen the game. If you already beat a dungeon there is no reason why you shouldn't be powerful enough to take on the next. Thankfully most RPGs nowadays (even Bioware games) don't require grinding anymore.

Also, quadruple post??? Next time just use the edit button please.

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

666 comments, nice. Gonna pass on this though.

It was a neat episode IMHO, but that's not why I made an account and I am making my first post in this thread.

By sheer coincidence, look at how many replies this thread had when I noticed it. BTW I was watching some old ZP episodes when I noticed this.

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/199/demonsouls666.jpg

EDIT: Also, I have been ninja'd by aruseusx on this one.

kingmanic:

iron fist150:
no shit the game is hard, its made by Atlus, anyone thats ever played any of the Persona games or Devil Survivor will know what im talking about

It's published by Atlus America. It's made by From Software with help and money from Sony. It's a Sony Second Party Title.

Atlus America doesn't make games. They cherry pick and localize the best niche games from Japan to release here and they are a subsidiary by Atlus Japan so they get dibbs on those.

true, however my point still stands, have you ever played an easy Atlus game?

iron fist150:

kingmanic:

iron fist150:
no shit the game is hard, its made by Atlus, anyone thats ever played any of the Persona games or Devil Survivor will know what im talking about

It's published by Atlus America. It's made by From Software with help and money from Sony. It's a Sony Second Party Title.

Atlus America doesn't make games. They cherry pick and localize the best niche games from Japan to release here and they are a subsidiary by Atlus Japan so they get dibbs on those.

true, however my point still stands, have you ever played an easy Atlus game?

Steambot Chronicles was pretty easy :P

Helba1984:

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Mother of god, how can you expect your "debate" to be taken seriously when you avoid the direct issue that level grinding is a tired and old design choice rather than telling the other side to go back to Halo and that he doesn't understand your precious genre?
I'll set the disclaimer here that the only RPGs I've really played are pokemon and the Mario and Luigi series, which are more or less action rpgs, and they are far far better in my opinion because they don't force you to stop and do the same thing for an hour or so before you move on to the next part of the game. It only unfairly lengthens the game, it doesn't add anything to the story, gameplay, etc.

oneshotfinchy:

Helba1984:

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Mother of god, how can you expect your "debate" to be taken seriously when you avoid the direct issue that level grinding is a tired and old design choice rather than telling the other side to go back to Halo and that he doesn't understand your precious genre?
I'll set the disclaimer here that the only RPGs I've really played are pokemon and the Mario and Luigi series, which are more or less action rpgs, and they are far far better in my opinion because they don't force you to stop and do the same thing for an hour or so before you move on to the next part of the game. It only unfairly lengthens the game, it doesn't add anything to the story, gameplay, etc.

And I explained that this is your opinion, correctly identified when you started playing and the likely types of "Rpg" you started with, and forgot to mention that the idea of leveling being a "Bad" design choice is merely your opinion as someone who plays a sub-genre of RPG and misinterprets it for its grandfather.

Helba1984:

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Woah, you make a lot of wild assumptions about the games I like, but ignoring all that let's look at couple of the points you made:

I don't know why you would say that level grinding is a staple of turn-based RPGs. While it is certainly is more common in those than in action RPGs that doesn't mean that it's a part of the genre (or a good mechanic, for that matter). Really, I don't understand why you're trying to defend it, so maybe you could clue me in on what exactly grinding adds to gameplay?

Also, I have nothing against JRPGs as a genre, though I do wish they'd learn a few storytelling techniques from Western RPGs (or other genres for that matter) and also cut down on the random battles/level grinding (which they have been doing the last few years).

Since you mentioned you work in the industry I'm kind of curious what you do, but hey I guess that might be asking for a bit too much. You're definitely right that games are getting easier and are being made for mass appeal, but then you don't exactly need to be an insider to see that. Personally, I think it's a good thing because it means the medium as a whole is expanding, and it also makes developers think twice about certain "time-honored" yet ultimately faulty mechanics such as level grinding.

Anyway that's enough for now. I need to get back to my mindless RPG-shooter.

Edit:

Helba1984:

And I explained that this is your opinion, correctly identified when you started playing and the likely types of "Rpg" you started with, and forgot to mention that the idea of leveling being a "Bad" design choice is merely your opinion as someone who plays a sub-genre of RPG and misinterprets it for its grandfather.

Er wait, we don't have a problem with leveling in RPGs, only level grinding. There's a big difference between the two.

Quality Yahtzee.

Macman12:
I was looking foward to trying this out to =[
Hard I don't mind... but near-impossible is
another thing altogether.

*sniff* I need my RPG fix.

Don't let this review turn you off, this game is fantastic, and not very hard.
And hard in the way that you can actually overcome. People beat the game at level 1 (without advancing a level, but with item upgrades) just to challenge their skills.
I've been playing Dragon Age : Origins on hard. I hate it. If there's a fight that's too hard, it's just too hard. If your characters aren't advanced enough, they're not advanced enough. You can maybe get by with enough potions, but it's a numbers game, not a game game. And all those treasure chests I can't open because no one has lockpicking or whatever?
Fucking stupid.
Demon's Souls you can actually learn from and get better.

Engles:
No need to knock Sussex...

Lol Sussex is awesome. XD

I find it quite funny how we got mentioned. Now all of the Escapist knows that its a shithole :L

I've been watching these videos for awhile, and I usually laugh so much because I can relate to the same "experiences". This time however it feels as though he never played the game and watched a few videos off youtube. Saying the only online interaction is through a messaging system is a lie. There is 4-player co-op, PvP, and even allowing the player to become a boss for PvP. If you're going to explain(cannot really say review) a game, at least play it for more than a few minutes. Maybe he should just stick to point-and-click adventures.

yzzlthtz:

Macman12:
I was looking foward to trying this out to =[
Hard I don't mind... but near-impossible is
another thing altogether.

*sniff* I need my RPG fix.

Don't let this review turn you off, this game is fantastic, and not very hard.
And hard in the way that you can actually overcome. People beat the game at level 1 (without advancing a level, but with item upgrades) just to challenge their skills.
I've been playing Dragon Age : Origins on hard. I hate it. If there's a fight that's too hard, it's just too hard. If your characters aren't advanced enough, they're not advanced enough. You can maybe get by with enough potions, but it's a numbers game, not a game game. And all those treasure chests I can't open because no one has lockpicking or whatever?
Fucking stupid.
Demon's Souls you can actually learn from and get better.

You can't open the chests? What kind of adventuring party are you running without a rogue of some sort. For shame :D

oneshotfinchy:

Helba1984:

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

Mother of god, how can you expect your "debate" to be taken seriously when you avoid the direct issue that level grinding is a tired and old design choice rather than telling the other side to go back to Halo and that he doesn't understand your precious genre?
I'll set the disclaimer here that the only RPGs I've really played are pokemon and the Mario and Luigi series, which are more or less action rpgs, and they are far far better in my opinion because they don't force you to stop and do the same thing for an hour or so before you move on to the next part of the game. It only unfairly lengthens the game, it doesn't add anything to the story, gameplay, etc.

Ok im going to explain the leveling up system to you. It's a numbers game. If you don't like that then stop reading here because most traditional RPGs are not meant for you and you will not understand them so stop complaining. In traditional RPGs you generally gain EXP (short for experience which is valid as you would be gaining experience if you had to fight these monsters in real life) and once you gain enough EXP you level up. Leveling up shows a progression of your character. People who play the traditional RPGs like this gradual progression allowing them to see their characters grow. Like in an FPS you can see your skills grow, for example you may be hitting more headshots than you did when you first started playing. Just levelling allows fopr more customisation of your characters and requires more thinking. Now I am not trying to slander your intelligence here, but if you don't like thinking while playing then stop playing RPGs. Traditional RPGs were made for people who like to think.

Why are we even talking about level grinding here? Yahtzee made no mention of it, and there is no need for level grinding in Demon's Souls. The game can be beaten at level 1... It's all a matter of hand-eye coordination...

This was hilarious, Your created character is so funny.

Why can I not load the whole vid and watch it that way. I s not loading so it keeps sticking. Funny review how ever I hacve not even heard of this game until now lol./

Admittedly Yahtzee didn't give the game a chance, it's not fair to decide that a game is a failure after only playing a small part of it. I prefer to experience everything a game has to offer before making a decision. As someone who's put more than 200 hours into Demon's Souls, I found this to be a much clearer and accurate review: http://whysoblu.com/?p=3697.

I got a plat trophy in this game, it is a good game, and it is not super hard as you said. It teaches you to look around and watch what your doing.

You need to stop posting things like this unless you finish the game. People fallow what you say like sheep. I think it is down right underhanded to not make a public quote saying your not a real reviewer.

Don't get me wrong here, any of the idiots that listen to this and miss out on a good game, get the punishment of being a moron, but the companies that make the games don't as that cuts there sales.

I don't think you gave the game enough of a chance. I thought it was really hard at very first because I read all the hype about how hard it was. It's kind of challenging, but it's not completely brutal like Gamespot and IGN would have you believe. I can't believe you fell for the crappy Gamespot hype machine's lies. :P

It's not as hard as it seems. Don't believe me? Try playing the game again using a Magician instead. It's cake.

And dodging does work, there's just a bit more to it than hitting 'O'. Holding a direction and dodging makes you roll instead of just jump back, which takes you farther. Doing the standard 'jump a step back' thing is only useful for getting back to cover quickly when an arrow comes your way or something, not for dodging a melee attack.

Also not being able to pause doesn't really matter when all you have to do is take a few steps backwards to be 'out of sight' of the next enemy, who will then just sit there and thumb himself in the ass until you walk forward again.

It's not that hard, you just have to do things differently than most games. I, for one, appreciate this.

I think another problem may be his choice of class. Barbarian and thief are really hard for a new player to play as and that may have affected him. I also don't think he figured out how to dodge roll since the step back, I agree, isn't the most useful for dodging most attacks.

Another mistake most people make is not using their shield and instead trying to two hand attack everything. While this will make enemies die faster, unless you're a well practiced player, you will die was well. During my first play through my shield was up ALL the time.

I'd say start as a knight for your first play through as he's fairly balanced stat wise and pretty well defended with a nice sword and shield. Also he can access magic fairly easily.

Helba1984:

Wow, here I was thinking you understood that progressing and becoming more powerful in a game is sort of part of the game getting more difficult. You probably can't handle an FPS either, because you have to have guns "of a certain level" of power and have learned "by trial and error"that standing in front of an alien with your thumb up your ass will get you killed.

Better stick to Madden, BroGamer. http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=287

Edit: I apologize if this seemed biting, but I used the appropriate level of cynicism to prove the point that all of your assertions are pure fallacy. So please consider the sarcasm and cynical remarks aimed at your points and not you.

hahaha not sure what FPS yet been playing, but most dont involve using a certain gun to win the game. Even in online modern warfare, which is the only level based shooter I can think of off hand. A private can still kill a General using a pistol, even if the General has a access to better guns.. assuming the private is a better player. Even in campaign based FPS you generally dont need to unlock guns before proceeding and you almost never have to replay the same level. As for trial and error... it is trial and error in games other than Demons Souls. However Demons Souls is unfair because it punishes you harshly for dying, then says ok try something.. oh guess what that was wrong your dead or the worst one that was right but your not at a high enough level. Other game punish you for screwing up but gives you a chance to react to the new situation. Example in Splinter Cell (which is a PATIENCE based FPS) if you screw up the stealth people come to try and kill you, however you can try and sometimes succeed at reticfying your mistake by killing the guards you alerts. Demons Souls just kills you, sends you back to the start and takes away all your souls. In Demons Souls for every one step forward you take three back.. one you're dead.. two you're back at the start.. three you have no more souls.

This being said Demons Souls is NOT A BAD GAME. It was extrodinary well done in atmosphere. Going up against a dragon was actually was like "****! its a dragon! Run!!!", fighting alot of the enemies seemed realistic and it generated the correct respond. A giant gargoyle attacking you caused a rush. The boss battles where reminisant of Zelda style attack pattern bosses... and some of the them were really good. Others had the problem of incinerating practilly instantly, which was annoying, but the Fool's Idol boss fight was awesome as basically it allowed you to screw up once without dying which gave you the time to develop a strategy. Combat was to a point skill based... as it involved dodging enemy attacks and countering... however broken the dodge and counter system was... I have to say for a brutal challenging game they didnt make the controls too friendly. The step back (there was a step back) and the roll were totally useless, especaily when I figured out that my idoit character couldnt even dodge the most basic grunts attacks. The counter worked well if it worked. The timing on it was insanely precise and in a game that has the general rule of you get hit you die its totally useless as countering leaves you vunerable. I guess the developer didnt want Assassins Creed syndrome in which the counteris way overpowered and kills everything but whatever.

Now hear me out... ditching the level system in demons souls would make th game about ten times better. As it rids the game of the pointless grinding it likes to force you to do. If you ditched the level system, you would remain as powerful as you were starting the game and therefore almost every enemy would have the same two hits kill you attacks. The change of the game would come in the fact that you would have to tactically and skillfully figure out how to kill enemies without getting killed. The game would get harder as you progress because enemies would take more hits to kill or have more complex and varied attack patterns. Killing enemies would still give you souls which would be used to buy weapons/magic/miracles, however killing enemies would yield less souls to balance the loss of the level expense. As a result you would still have a ridiculouslly changing game that is based solely on how good the player is in combat, rather than a level system. Player vs Player would be far more interesting as it is more on an even playing field and the victor would be determined by how good the people is at the game, not by what level they are. The level system detracts from the realism of the game as its fake and number based... base the game on skill and the avantages and disadvantages of different weapons and suddenly we have a very interesting game.

Honestly thats my opinion, if you are going to incorporate a level system, which should be arachiac now in my mind, at least make it so completing a level gets us to the point we need to be at to start the next level. Dont force us to grind. To me grinding has always been what people do if they werent good at enough at a game to play it straight through (which is how its meant to be played) or if your gonna make me grind at least let me replay the boss fights.

And its cool its a forum I expect people to disagree with me.. Thats my opinion.. any comments?

[

Helba1984:

boholikeu:

Helba1984:

UnlimitedCreativity:

Level grinding to me is an absolute waste of time... I bought a game to play it, not to boringly replay the same levels to become powerful enough to tackle the next. To me thats lazy game design.

Wow. You should avoid every RPG ever made, because that genre isn't for you. Also never ever play D&D, and don't bother trying to play FF or DQ at all. Also avoid Oblivion and Morrowind, avoid KOTOR, avoid pretty much anything out of Bioware or Japan in general.

Go play Halo and stop complaining.

Level grinding is a waste of time and bad design because it usually serves no purpose other than to artificially lengthen the game. If you already beat a dungeon there is no reason why you shouldn't be powerful enough to take on the next. Thankfully most RPGs nowadays (even Bioware games) don't require grinding anymore.

Also, quadruple post??? Next time just use the edit button please.

No, it's not bad design, it's just a different kind of game.

Real RPGs have been diluted by the Action genre for quite a few years now, and I'm old enough to have seen that entire trend play out. You're one of the noveau-rpgers who think an RPG means a shooter with a sword instead of menus and stats.

That, friend, is an ACTION-RPG, and the games I mentioned are PURE RPG.

When you bash JRPGs, and when the western development world in general does, you sound just like this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/9/6/

Also, not quadruple post, separate replies to separate points.

It's called debate.

Edit:

I am also a professional who happens to work in the industry, and I know precisely the motivating factors behind these trends I speak of; I am well versed and well educated in this subject matter in particular. Games are being artificially made easier and shortened to widen the audience and make more money, and much is lost in translation. There is little one man can do to stop it, even from the inside - but people like you lapping up the piss they squirt out and calling it mannah from heaven aren't helping the case.

If you want to keep that kind of game, that genre, I suppose you're entitled to continue playing and buying those kinds of games; but the type of gamer that existed 20 years ago from the first ff and dq and M&M is still there, and these companies are still making the games we love.

Just have the decency to stop calling a diluted shadow of something formerly great the same as its ancestor and I have no quarrel with you. there are fundamental design choices that are made differently now due to decisions specifically made to make games last less time and move in the direction of becoming like movies.

The chief result of this is many games that are action-rpgs lumped in with actual RPGs, and they skew the demographics which makes actual rpgs appear less popular; the truth is they are as popular as ever, but their bastard grandchildren are being lumped in and as they are designed from the ground up for higher market penetration, they create the illusion that real RPGs are failures by comparison.

the sooner people realize and make this distinction, the sooner people will stop hating on either western or eastern games and we'll all have what we want.

So the point here it that level grinding is an outdated mechanic... If you relate increasing a skill at headshots in an FPS as being able to better manipulate the controls, then why not do the same with Demons Souls basing progression off people becoming smarter and more skilled in combat. My biggest complaint with Demons Souls is the level system. I found that fact that I need to be a certain level to proceed is unfair. I dont tell me about people who beat the game as a lv 1 the whole way through.. Im talking general audience here.. not super gamers

Er, you don't have to fight a boss to come back to life. You just have to get back to where you died. _

UnlimitedCreativity:

hahaha not sure what FPS yet been playing, but most dont involve using a certain gun to win the game. Even in online modern warfare, which is the only level based shooter I can think of off hand. A private can still kill a General using a pistol, even if the General has a access to better guns.. assuming the private is a better player. Even in campaign based FPS you generally dont need to unlock guns before proceeding and you almost never have to replay the same level. As for trial and error... it is trial and error in games other than Demons Souls. However Demons Souls is unfair because it punishes you harshly for dying, then says ok try something.. oh guess what that was wrong your dead or the worst one that was right but your not at a high enough level. Other game punish you for screwing up but gives you a chance to react to the new situation. Example in Splinter Cell (which is a PATIENCE based FPS) if you screw up the stealth people come to try and kill you, however you can try and sometimes succeed at reticfying your mistake by killing the guards you alerts. Demons Souls just kills you, sends you back to the start and takes away all your souls. In Demons Souls for every one step forward you take three back.. one you're dead.. two you're back at the start.. three you have no more souls.

This being said Demons Souls is NOT A BAD GAME. It was extrodinary well done in atmosphere. Going up against a dragon was actually was like "****! its a dragon! Run!!!", fighting alot of the enemies seemed realistic and it generated the correct respond. A giant gargoyle attacking you caused a rush. The boss battles where reminisant of Zelda style attack pattern bosses... and some of the them were really good. Others had the problem of incinerating practilly instantly, which was annoying, but the Fool's Idol boss fight was awesome as basically it allowed you to screw up once without dying which gave you the time to develop a strategy. Combat was to a point skill based... as it involved dodging enemy attacks and countering... however broken the dodge and counter system was... I have to say for a brutal challenging game they didnt make the controls too friendly. The step back (there was a step back) and the roll were totally useless, especaily when I figured out that my idoit character couldnt even dodge the most basic grunts attacks. The counter worked well if it worked. The timing on it was insanely precise and in a game that has the general rule of you get hit you die its totally useless as countering leaves you vunerable. I guess the developer didnt want Assassins Creed syndrome in which the counteris way overpowered and kills everything but whatever.

Now hear me out... ditching the level system in demons souls would make th game about ten times better. As it rids the game of the pointless grinding it likes to force you to do. If you ditched the level system, you would remain as powerful as you were starting the game and therefore almost every enemy would have the same two hits kill you attacks. The change of the game would come in the fact that you would have to tactically and skillfully figure out how to kill enemies without getting killed. The game would get harder as you progress because enemies would take more hits to kill or have more complex and varied attack patterns. Killing enemies would still give you souls which would be used to buy weapons/magic/miracles, however killing enemies would yield less souls to balance the loss of the level expense. As a result you would still have a ridiculouslly changing game that is based solely on how good the player is in combat, rather than a level system. Player vs Player would be far more interesting as it is more on an even playing field and the victor would be determined by how good the people is at the game, not by what level they are. The level system detracts from the realism of the game as its fake and number based... base the game on skill and the avantages and disadvantages of different weapons and suddenly we have a very interesting game.

Honestly thats my opinion, if you are going to incorporate a level system, which should be arachiac now in my mind, at least make it so completing a level gets us to the point we need to be at to start the next level. Dont force us to grind. To me grinding has always been what people do if they werent good at enough at a game to play it straight through (which is how its meant to be played) or if your gonna make me grind at least let me replay the boss fights.

And its cool its a forum I expect people to disagree with me.. Thats my opinion.. any comments?

So the point here it that level grinding is an outdated mechanic... If you relate increasing a skill at headshots in an FPS as being able to better manipulate the controls, then why not do the same with Demons Souls basing progression off people becoming smarter and more skilled in combat. My biggest complaint with Demons Souls is the level system. I found that fact that I need to be a certain level to proceed is unfair. I dont tell me about people who beat the game as a lv 1 the whole way through.. Im talking general audience here.. not super gamers

Let me just start off by saying I'm glad your enjoying this because so am I ;)

Ok, down to business. Lets address what you said about Modern Warfare 2 and Splinter Cell shall we? Just let it be known that these are FPSs and not RPGs but im not going to let that stand in the way of my arguement. Ok, MW2; yes, the lower level player may be more skilled but he is still at an unfair advantage. Yes he may still be able to but thats only if the higher level player is a complete retard. Anyone who has played the game enough to level up that far will know the maps and know how to fire his gun right? Chances are he'll be able to do that before the better player can react. One of my main gripes about MW2 is that you die too quickly but im not going into that here. As for Splinter Cell I always hated the fact you could still win if you fucked up. In a stealth game if you get caught you should be in some real shit. Now I know some Splinter Cell games have done that right and I can just turn up the difficulty but it's a stealth game and the whole idea is to not get seen. You should be punished for failing that right (I do love the look of the upcoming Splinter Cell though, just thought I would say)? And that's exactly what Demon's Souls does. Punishes you if you fail.

As for the dodging system, maybe you couldn't dodge because you had heavy armour on. The weight of your equipment does effect the way your character controls. Heavily armoured characters will not be able to run as fast or dodge as far. If your guy is heavily armoured it may be worth investing in a shield and blocking. Yes, if you are not locked on to your enemy it is a bit difficult to tell which direction you will dodge but I think it works well enough. Not perfect mind, but it does the job.

The controls were always a bit iffy in my mind. Kinda like the Resi games, they are a bit different to everything else but ove you get the hang of them you will be prancing around the stages whirling around like a tornadoe of death, nimbly missing the traps and countering the enemies moves.

Now I will adress your main gripe. The levelling system. Now I get your point, you don't like grinding. You find it pointless having to replay the levels you've already played (let me just point out that replaying levels isn't a bad idea. Theres alot to find there). And I agree with you there. But thats where it stops. I never had to grind in Demon's Souls. See, there's kinda an order you have to do it in, and it's not neccessarily in chronocological order either. If you find it then you will rarely have to grind. Yes you probably will have to play through the game once before you find the right way, but once you do, gaining souls rarely becomes a problem till the later levels. And im glad im not the only person that thinks that this game made every enemy realistic and pose its actual threat. Even the rats in this game will catch you unawares.

As to the actual levelling system, I think its brilliant. This game, The Elder Scrolls series and Diablo II/Borderlands (they had a similar system) are the only games to get it right that I have played. What these games do is allow you to personalise your character so that they will go perfectly to your play style. Each character is adapted to their player. Each skill point spent in Demon's Souls will dramatically change your characters play. Unlike other games each level in a skill is noticably different and without the levelling system then you wouldnt be able to customise your character like this. That is why the levelling system is in the game and without it it would be completely different.

blackmath:
Er, you don't have to fight a boss to come back to life. You just have to get back to where you died. _

This will give you back your souls but you will not get your body back. You will still be in soul form.

Zerocyde:
It reminds me of this game...

http://robotchicken.wikia.com/wiki/The_Memory_Game

Sounds absolutely terrible.

Ya it got FANTASTIC reviews for absolutely no reason, it's terrible *rolls eyes*. I just bought this game, don't have the ability to play it yet but I will in a matter of time....

Remember people this is ENTERTAINMENT not a straight-up informative review, he hates everything, even things I bet he enjoys more than he says. You may recall after the Psychonauts review when he said specifically he realized people don't like when he likes things.

He also said he's a reviewer by exception, everything he doesn't mention is good. All he mentioned was the difficulty. Soooo I guess that means the gameplay, graphics, combat, soundtrack, and everything else are good. Yup, sounds like a good game to me.

You guys can aargue about the subjectivity of 'good' and 'bad' game design, but level-grinding is objectively fucking lazy. Giving a player the option to replay former quests/levels is one thing, and I support it - but forcing someone to do the same thing repetitively until the game decides for itself that the player is ready to continue is nothing but an artificial lengthening device.

UnlimitedCreativity:
Now hear me out... ditching the level system in demons souls would make th game about ten times better. As it rids the game of the pointless grinding it likes to force you to do.

It never forces you to grind. The game can be beaten at level 1. So skill IS all it takes to win.

Without leveling up, dying becomes almost meaningless. The scaling cost of Soul Level coupled with the loss of all souls upon death is what keeps the fear of death constant in the players mind... Without the game loses its atmosphere and immersion completely.

GameGoddess101:
Yeah, I can related. I played this game because some fuck-nugget (aka my brother-in-law) told me it was the best game EVAR!!! It sucked... completely unintuitive, no save points, and the game was pretty tight-lipped about what the fuck I was supposed to do. Who thought this was a good idea??

Uh, I'd hardly call it unintuitive, it has very unique and useful online aspects. It also has a very good combat system, I wish more games used something similar.

Your game saves constantly, and you get checkpoints at the end of each level. I don't know why people bitch about this game, it's not even that hard. If people had half a brain, they'd quickly learn to dodge or block incoming attacks, which makes the game substantially easier.

I did find the video pretty entertaining, as Yahtzee apparently sucks at the game. It seemed a bit more like him bitching than an actual review, but that's fine. I wonder how far he actually ended up playing the game.

Multi-Kill:

FallenJellyDoughnut:
Jesus christ does Yahtzee get up early! Its 3:00am in Australia!

But it's 12:07 PM on the east coast of America.

Anyways, rather good work Yahtzee. That game's dificulty and shittiness reminds me of CO when I left it and plumbers dont wear ties.

Dumbass, he lives in Australia

sanzo:

yzzlthtz:

Macman12:
I was looking foward to trying this out to =[
Hard I don't mind... but near-impossible is
another thing altogether.

*sniff* I need my RPG fix.

Don't let this review turn you off, this game is fantastic, and not very hard.
And hard in the way that you can actually overcome. People beat the game at level 1 (without advancing a level, but with item upgrades) just to challenge their skills.
I've been playing Dragon Age : Origins on hard. I hate it. If there's a fight that's too hard, it's just too hard. If your characters aren't advanced enough, they're not advanced enough. You can maybe get by with enough potions, but it's a numbers game, not a game game. And all those treasure chests I can't open because no one has lockpicking or whatever?
Fucking stupid.
Demon's Souls you can actually learn from and get better.

You can't open the chests? What kind of adventuring party are you running without a rogue of some sort. For shame :D

I keep assuming I'll find one.
But I haven't. I'm especially annoyed, since I rolled a mage, and picked the exact same spells that the mage who joins you early early in the game starts with. Apparently, it is far better to roll a rogue. Why did they even let me create a mage or fighter? Or why not change the npcs you meet based on what you rolled? Why do I even need a stupid lockpick skill in the first place? Talk about tired tropes. Most of those chests looked like they were made of flimsy wood.

KevinSpacey:
You guys can aargue about the subjectivity of 'good' and 'bad' game design, but level-grinding is objectively fucking lazy. Giving a player the option to replay former quests/levels is one thing, and I support it - but forcing someone to do the same thing repetitively until the game decides for itself that the player is ready to continue is nothing but an artificial lengthening device.

You mean like replaying a level or encounter until you are capable of beating it? Kind of like....most games out there?
As far as level grinding in Demon's Souls, it is an option, but it's entirely unnecessary. It's all about skill....
leveling up helps, as does upgrading items. That's where the numbers come into play. But the action game elements of Demon's Souls are way solid - among the best.

yzzlthtz:

sanzo:

yzzlthtz:

Macman12:
I was looking foward to trying this out to =[
Hard I don't mind... but near-impossible is
another thing altogether.

*sniff* I need my RPG fix.

Don't let this review turn you off, this game is fantastic, and not very hard.
And hard in the way that you can actually overcome. People beat the game at level 1 (without advancing a level, but with item upgrades) just to challenge their skills.
I've been playing Dragon Age : Origins on hard. I hate it. If there's a fight that's too hard, it's just too hard. If your characters aren't advanced enough, they're not advanced enough. You can maybe get by with enough potions, but it's a numbers game, not a game game. And all those treasure chests I can't open because no one has lockpicking or whatever?
Fucking stupid.
Demon's Souls you can actually learn from and get better.

You can't open the chests? What kind of adventuring party are you running without a rogue of some sort. For shame :D

I keep assuming I'll find one.
But I haven't. I'm especially annoyed, since I rolled a mage, and picked the exact same spells that the mage who joins you early early in the game starts with. Apparently, it is far better to roll a rogue. Why did they even let me create a mage or fighter? Or why not change the npcs you meet based on what you rolled? Why do I even need a stupid lockpick skill in the first place? Talk about tired tropes. Most of those chests looked like they were made of flimsy wood.

You didn't pick up Leliana or Zevran? they are both optional party members, so I guess it's possible to not miss them. But yeah, if you missed them then you're SOL for a rogue

For the record, it isn't good because it is hard.

It is good for many reasons, but being hard isn't one of them. It is good because it is challenging but not in the sense that it throws sucker punches your way. On top of that, it is rewarding. As you explore the nuances of combat, get new gear and obtain new abilities, the game actually gets more fun as you progress. And you even begin to appreciate the growing challenge the game presents to you.

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