234: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That

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ben---neb:

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

Out of interest, what makes you think it's a choice? Did you choose to be straight? I'm not gay, but that's not by choice, it's just who I am. I can't change that.

Which leads to the next obvious question; if God hates gays so much, why does he keep making them?

Don't answer if you don't want, I think the thread has been derailed a bit too much already. And don't take this as religous baiting on my part. I'm just genuinely interested.

megamanenm:

ben---neb:

Angerwing:

ben---neb:

Because, as the Bible says, marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Sex should only happen in marriage. Therefore homosexuality is a sin. But Christians shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals because we all sin, homosexulaity is just another to add to the list of the sins of mankind.

Along with wearing mixed threads and shaving. Is that a cotton/polyester blend? Straight to hell.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

A choice? I didn't realise your sexuality was a choice. When did you decide your sexuality? You didn't. You're born with it.

I should have been more specific though (sorry). Homosexuality is a temptation that only some men will feel. It falls under the broader temptation of lust which ALL men feel. Sex outside of marriage, masturbation, lustful thoughts, adultery, homosexulaity are all lustful temptations that all men suffer from although each man will suffer differently. And we have to resist these temptations. Giving into temptation is always a choice. So yeah, some men are born with a greater propensity to be homosexual that makes resisting this temptation harder for them to do but they still have to obey God's law and God will igve them the grace to resist sin.

ben---neb:
Also a certain degree of common sense should be applied like in the case of Shrimp and mixed fibres.

This is why you lose.

So you're saying it's common sense to not, not eat shrimp, but it's also common sense to disregard gays entirely? Because, if the laws can be over-ridden by 'common sense', why have laws at all? I want to know how you think you know which laws are more important to God. Perhaps God's favourite creature is the humble prawn, and specifically wanted the shellfish law to be followed above all others?

NicolasMarinus:

ThrobbingEgo:

NicolasMarinus:

ThrobbingEgo:
Cool article. It always amazes me how an audience feels cheated when an author defies their expectations. It's like they think it's their story, with their characters. The audience doesn't always realize that it's following characters separate from itself, that its just along for the ride.

I've heard a bit about the author's mods on TIGSource, and I think I'll check them out. ...Right after I finish Research and Development.

Hm, I disagree. Games are interactive stories where you (ideally) have choices. In part the story is yours. Like modern art, it is a shared experience, only completed when the viewer views and interprets the images as he sees fit.

I do like what you say about the author defying expectations. Well put.

And who defines what those possible choices are? The author. A game's a constructed medium.

The author's control just becomes more obvious when a game follows a linear plot.

If you play Call of Duty, you will make different decisions than me how to traverse a field. True, the designers defined you had to cross it, but you decide how. It is a shared experience between the developer and the player. No two playthroughs are the same.

It goes a little deeper than that. You inherently can't make an action the developers didn't program into the game. Your characters and settings are all defined. True, you can be given choices too, but those options are also defined.

The audience always plays a part, of course, the game is made for an audience, but the game can't write new lines of dialogue as a player continues on his own merry path.

No matter how many permutations or combinations of paths you can choose.

I've had long aspirations to work in making video games. I want to be in a David Jaffe position, or Todd Howard, of Cliff Blizensky, and when I get there, I want to make a game with a gay main character. I'm never immersed into games either, and it's not entirely because I can't relate to the character on an orientation basis, but certainly that fact remains.

In Fallout 3, there's a women in Megaton that you can buy sex from. Throughout the entire game, she is your only option. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are able to make a choice, and none of your options are prostitutes. I wasn't so sure I would like the game in the first place, but when I found that out, it was the next game on my shopping list. I didn't want Dragon Age because of the steamy man-love; I wanted it because I could finally play a character in an RPG similar to myself.

Lusty:

ben---neb:

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

Out of interest, what makes you think it's a choice? Did you choose to be straight? I'm not gay, but that's not by choice, it's just who I am. I can't change that.

Which leads to the next obvious question; if God hates gays so much, why does he keep making them?

Don't answer if you don't want, I think the thread has been derailed a bit too much already. And don't take this as religous baiting on my part. I'm just genuinely interested.

I have no problems with answering your question, I do not feel baited and thank you for being so polite.

Homosexuality is a temptation that only some men will feel. It falls under the broader temptation of lust which ALL men feel. Sex outside of marriage, masturbation, lustful thoughts, adultery, homosexulaity are all lustful temptations that all men suffer from although each man will suffer differently. And God commands us to resist these temptations. Giving into temptation is always a choice. So yeah, some men are born with a greater propensity to be homosexual that makes resisting this temptation harder for them to do but they still have to obey God's law.

Your question might well be: why did God create men to feel lust and give in to lustful sin? Well, the thing is he created man perfect (Adam) but man sinned and was cursed because of that. We all born naturally sinful and rebelious against God. Homosexuals aren't 'special' we are all prone to different types of sin.

As for why God created man knowing man would go onto sin. I can't answer that question as the Bible doesn't answer it. All I can say is that God's way are not our ways and neither are his thoughts our thoughts.

BestJaxx:
I've had long aspirations to work in making video games. I want to be in a David Jaffe position, or Todd Howard, of Cliff Blizensky, and when I get there, I want to make a game with a gay main character. I'm never immersed into games either, and it's not entirely because I can't relate to the character on an orientation basis, but certainly that fact remains.

In Fallout 3, there's a women in Megaton that you can buy sex from. Throughout the entire game, she is your only option. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are able to make a choice, and none of your options are prostitutes. I wasn't so sure I would like the game in the first place, but when I found that out, it was the next game on my shopping list. I didn't want Dragon Age because of the steamy man-love; I wanted it because I could finally play a character in an RPG similar to myself.

Dragon Age is an interesting example. I'm slightly curious as to how they managed to get away with the gay relationships without the whole Fox News explosion they had with Mass Effect. Maybe it's because everyone keeps their pants on, or maybe it's because the sex scenes are so cringeworthy that they just let them off.

ben---neb:
SNIP

Thanks... back on topic now I promise :)

Lusty:

BestJaxx:
I've had long aspirations to work in making video games. I want to be in a David Jaffe position, or Todd Howard, of Cliff Blizensky, and when I get there, I want to make a game with a gay main character. I'm never immersed into games either, and it's not entirely because I can't relate to the character on an orientation basis, but certainly that fact remains.

In Fallout 3, there's a women in Megaton that you can buy sex from. Throughout the entire game, she is your only option. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are able to make a choice, and none of your options are prostitutes. I wasn't so sure I would like the game in the first place, but when I found that out, it was the next game on my shopping list. I didn't want Dragon Age because of the steamy man-love; I wanted it because I could finally play a character in an RPG similar to myself.

Dragon Age is an interesting example. I'm slightly curious as to how they managed to get away with the gay relationships without the whole Fox News explosion they had with Mass Effect. Maybe it's because everyone keeps their pants on, or maybe it's because the sex scenes are so cringeworthy that they just let them off.

There was, I believe, misinformation about Mass Effect (some blogger called it a "rape simulator" IIRC), and they've since been called out on it. Fox didn't do their job to investigate said claim before decrying Mass Effect's sex scene. Neither did the "expert" - who later felt cheated when she, herself, finally watched the scene.

They can't feign ignorance if they make the same mistake twice, with the same developer.

ben---neb:

Lusty:

ben---neb:

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

Out of interest, what makes you think it's a choice? Did you choose to be straight? I'm not gay, but that's not by choice, it's just who I am. I can't change that.

Which leads to the next obvious question; if God hates gays so much, why does he keep making them?

Don't answer if you don't want, I think the thread has been derailed a bit too much already. And don't take this as religous baiting on my part. I'm just genuinely interested.

I have no problems with answering your question, I do not feel baited and thank you for being so polite.

Homosexuality is a temptation that only some men will feel. It falls under the broader temptation of lust which ALL men feel. Sex outside of marriage, masturbation, lustful thoughts, adultery, homosexulaity are all lustful temptations that all men suffer from although each man will suffer differently. And God commands us to resist these temptations. Giving into temptation is always a choice. So yeah, some men are born with a greater propensity to be homosexual that makes resisting this temptation harder for them to do but they still have to obey God's law.

Your question might well be: why did God create men to feel lust and give in to lustful sin? Well, the thing is he created man perfect (Adam) but man sinned and was cursed because of that. We all born naturally sinful and rebelious against God. Homosexuals aren't 'special' we are all prone to different types of sin.

As for why God created man knowing man would go onto sin. I can't answer that question as the Bible doesn't answer it. All I can say is that God's way are not our ways and neither are his thoughts our thoughts.

It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

JaymesFogarty:
It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

It's only sinful if you enjoy it. Er, I mean, any reason other than reproduction.

ThrobbingEgo:

JaymesFogarty:
It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

It's only sinful if you enjoy it.

Okay, thank you very much for that. Now I finally understand.

ThrobbingEgo:

JaymesFogarty:
It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

It's only sinful if you enjoy it. Er, I mean, any reason other than reproduction.

If sex should only be had for reproduction, then why is it so enjoyable? Couldn't God have made some other way for propagating?

homophobes are teh ghey

megamanenm:

ThrobbingEgo:

JaymesFogarty:
It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

It's only sinful if you enjoy it. Er, I mean, any reason other than reproduction.

If sex should only be had for reproduction, then why is it so enjoyable? Couldn't God have made some other way for propagating?

It's so we'll all go to hell. Duh.

Something needs to burn to keep the cloud castles afloat.

Angerwing:

NicolasMarinus:

Angerwing:

NicolasMarinus:
You can't blame people for not wanting to play a gay man. When playing Prey I felt no attachment to the main character because he was a native American struggling with his ancestry. Nothing could be more remote from my European, all-white background.

May I assume that you're not a drugged up super-soldier? If you aren't, then how could relate to this character even if he was white? What about playing as Lara Croft (for example)?

Are you saying that you don't like playing characters who aren't copies of you?

I know, I know, logical fallacy, but still. Your point has little basis.

Edit: I got Prey confused with Haze. Doesn't change the point, but I just thought I'd clear that up.

I don't like cowboy movies, because the setting has no interest for me. I don't like movies like Sense and sensibility because the pains and woes of some 19th century British girl don't interest me. Seeing a macho tear through scores of enemies is fun. Playing one, well... You can't beat that.

By which I mean, the theme must interest you. Only then are you willing to empathise with characters. A lot of people will not be interested in gay men and how they experience life. I would be, since a couple of my friends are gay.

First of all, just pointing out that I'm not calling you a homophobe. Now that that's down.

If the homosexual aspect isn't a theme of the story, as in the author's mod, then wouldn't it not matter whether the player relates to homosexuals? If it's the fun of macho murder, then it shouldn't matter whether the person is gay or not, if that isn't a significant aspect of the story. I know a small effeminate gay guy who wants to become an interior designer, and a huge gay rugby player who could destroy you and your 2 best friends, blindfolded.

I agree with you if homosexuality is a part of the story. If the person isn't interested in experiencing that storyline, due to whatever reason, that's fine. But when the gay aspect is only mentioned once, in an ambiguously phrased line at the start of the game, then it shouldn't matter what sexuality the PC is.

Absolutely true. But regretably not everyone thinks like that.

I can stomach most anything in a game as far as my character goes. Different colored skin? Check. Different genders? Most certainly check. Different species? Check. Sexuality? Check.

But those are all choices (that's key here). What I don't like, is when someone tries to force stuff on me. Be it sexual rhetoric or arcane gibberish.

I got gay friends. We joke about it sometimes but, they have their preferences and I have mine. I'll be ok with it until someone comes to force their ideas as my own. And then I hold it against their person, not the whole damn demographic.

Also if I am not mistaken (being a heretic and all that), J.H.C. has never, not once, said anything about homosexuality. Sanctity of marriage, maybe, but in this case, the problem isn't biblical, it's judicial. Which, by the way, are and should be, two completely different things.

Buuut I may be wrong, so just burn me.

Great article, though I still disagree with the modder's decision to make the protagonist homosexual (it's just a hot button issue that distracts players from the game's main theme of repression).

Also, I hate to contribute to the derailing of this thread, but it's so uncommon to find a forum debate on religion and homosexuality that's this polite:

ben---neb:

Sure, the Bible was written by humans but God was behind the writing of the Bible and kept them from error. Look at it this way: your God, you want to reveal the truth about yourself, your going to make 100% sure the humans don't write anything wrong. Because of this then it is still logically sound to take the Bible was being true.

Does the Lord's influence extend to translations? How about the decisions about which books are cannon and which were to become apocrypha? Where do you draw the line? People blaspheme God's words every day to further their own power and greed, so I don't think that it's that far a stretch to consider that the modern Bible might have also been tainted by man's sinful nature. I think it's far more logically sound to question what we hear of God from other men and make our own decisions based on what He tells us through our hearts.

The biggest problem I have with lumping homosexuality in with the rest of the sins of lust is that I can't figure out how homosexuality is hurting someone. All the other sins you mentioned either hurt yourself or someone else, but I cannot see homosexuality as being harmful unless you count choosing not to have children as a sin as well.

ben---neb:
Well the first time round I didn't read it because I assumed (accurately) that reading it would make me feel uncomfortable.

You're that insecure?

Like someone else said - I don't get it. I don't agree with murder, it doesn't make me uncomfortable if I watch a crime-drama on it.

boholikeu:
Great article, though I still disagree with the modder's decision to make the protagonist homosexual (it's just a hot button issue that distracts players from the game's main theme of repression).

Why should a modder, who is making a game for his own purposes at his leisure, not include a character that shares his sexual identity? Free mods are great for a reason (other than "free shit is good shit"): it's because they can include personal elements that professional studios, relying on mass appeal, would be hesitant to include. Yang's game doesn't have to rely on mass appeal, so he could include a same-sex relationship he'd identify with.

Why make a main character straight? Why put a character in a relationship? Why have characters?

i have solution: you introduce interesting character to player, they do some missions together, they become friends(like sarcasm and telling jokes when on mission), and then the guy reveals(either in dialogue or cutscene) that he has a boyfriend, and the player responds "so what? i don't care".
I don't know how about tBoGT episode for GTA IV, it is yet to come out for PC.

Intelligent, thoughtful, funny and insightful.

Also, "vitamin gay" is likely to find its way into my daily vocabulary.

JaymesFogarty:

ben---neb:

Lusty:
[quote="ben---neb" post="6.164468.4292124"]
In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

SNIPquote]

I have no problems with answering your question, I do not feel baited and thank you for being so polite.

SNAP

It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

I'll try...There is nothing wrong with sex, far from it, God gave mankind a sex drive for a reason. He commanded us to 'be fruitful' then made it a joy and a pleasure to do so as well as making us want to do so. Which is great, reproduction is fun! God, as it were, loves sex, indeed as he created it. it was 'very good'

But it has a time and a place and that time and aplce is when a man and a woman are married. This is because sex is more than just the physical aspect, there is an intimacy involved, it is treated in our modern culture as something to throw away at every avaivle opportunity. But it is so much more than that. It is about love, trust, commitment and considering the poetntial for pregancy: responsilbitly as well. That's why sex and marriage go hand in hand and when a man and a woman do actually obey this command it results in something quite wonderful...or so i've inferred, not married myself so can't speak from experiance. Hope this clears things up for you, if you have more questions just message me and I'll happily naswer them.

this bible debate has gotten out of hand. Im catholic too and quite frankly i dont listen to a lot in leviticus lol. I love lobster. I've worn poly blend shirts. Each of these rules had practical applications at the time they were written. The way I look at it is that (although the bible was written by humans) these rules were god's way of keeping us safe, much as he tells us not to murder to keep ppl safe. Now eating shellfish isn't a risk as it was then.

Also we ALL have different beliefs. I don't hate Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/Jainist/Hindi etc. ppl. I dont go spitting on a guy who believes Jesus wasnt his savior so y are you spitting on a homosexual. You have your own beliefs, thats awesome. Then YOU should follow them. But seeing as homosexuals aren't hurting you, its honestly not your business. So please, ppl ur entitled to your beliefs but y should it matter what other ppl do if its not hurting anyone else. (this is a plea to stop the debate, thus to quote this and argue with me would be counterproductive as i will not respond)

Now that thats out of the way, I loved the article and wish i could play your mods b/c if heard they're really good.

ThrobbingEgo:

boholikeu:
Great article, though I still disagree with the modder's decision to make the protagonist homosexual (it's just a hot button issue that distracts players from the game's main theme of repression).

Why should a modder, who is making a game for his own purposes at his leisure, not include a character that shares his sexual identity? Free mods are great for a reason (other than "free shit is good shit"): it's because they can include personal elements that professional studios, relying on mass appeal, would be hesitant to include. Yang's game doesn't have to rely on mass appeal, so he could include a same-sex relationship he'd identify with.

Why make a main character straight? Why put a character in a relationship? Why have characters?

Because his mods are short experiments on how seamlessly integrate narrative and gameplay, and since the protagonist's homosexuality has nothing to do with the rest of the mod it just sticks out like a big red herring. I wrote a longer post about all this when the article was first posted, but you can't just identify the protagonist as gay within the first 10 seconds of a game that takes place in couple's therapy and then not reference it at all for the rest of the game.

Someone above said you can't blame people for not wanting to play a gay person. I am here to say, you can. If the requirement for playing games has something to do with personal identity, well guess what, millions of women and minorities have been shafted time and time again. People who get upset over this sort of thing just need to grow up, that includes punks who go around making rude gestures and talking like they're all grown up in FPS games.

boholikeu:

ThrobbingEgo:

boholikeu:
Great article, though I still disagree with the modder's decision to make the protagonist homosexual (it's just a hot button issue that distracts players from the game's main theme of repression).

Why should a modder, who is making a game for his own purposes at his leisure, not include a character that shares his sexual identity? Free mods are great for a reason (other than "free shit is good shit"): it's because they can include personal elements that professional studios, relying on mass appeal, would be hesitant to include. Yang's game doesn't have to rely on mass appeal, so he could include a same-sex relationship he'd identify with.

Why make a main character straight? Why put a character in a relationship? Why have characters?

Because his mods are short experiments on how seamlessly integrate narrative and gameplay, and since the protagonist's homosexuality has nothing to do with the rest of the mod it just sticks out like a big red herring. I wrote a longer post about all this when the article was first posted, but you can't just identify the protagonist as gay within the first 10 seconds of a game that takes place in couple's therapy and then not reference it at all for the rest of the game.

Why not? How many games/movies/books make a passing reference to a character's heterosexual relationship, without it playing a significant role in the plot? Why shouldn't the author of such a mod make a passing reference to his character's sexuality, gender identity or whatever? Why does it have to be a big deal or a huge plot point?

Answer: it doesn't.

How would it have been appropriate for you? If every reference to a character's homosexuality was followed by a quest for acceptance? Why is it so objectionable that a gay man made a game featuring a couple that just happens to be gay?

I never really feel the need to comment on things I read here, and after reading these comments, I remember why.

I'm a bisexual female married to a straight (and Christian) man. In many ways I have it much easier than the author of this article; lesbians are "hot" and more likely to be accepted in some circles, and since I'm in a straight relationship I get all the privileges associated with that (lack of discrimination mostly). In gaming, there seem to be a lot more cases where you can play a lesbian character than a gay man, but there are still no (to my knowledge) canon lesbian player characters, at least in games that actually do well.

As a female gamer, playing a big burly heterosexual male most of the time is something I pretty much have to accept. Can I identify with these characters? To a point, yes. I can understand joys and pains as far as the human condition is concerned. If I couldn't, I probably wouldn't be a gamer, since the games with female protagonists are limited. To me, saying gay characters shouldn't be made because people wouldn't be able to relate to them is, well... almost insulting. What about what I can relate to? Has anyone considered that gay gamers are a small demographic because of the lack of gay people in games? Indeed, if you removed the word "gay" and its synonyms from this article, and replaced them with "female", "black", or "disabled", would there even be an argument?

I never heard of the mod before (and since I don't own the game, won't play anyway) but I encourage the attitude of making it. It is a good thing when an author ( and I mean "author" in the full meaning of it, as I've seen this thing on short stories too) puts the player (or reader) in a position other than the "social default" without his knowledge of it, so that, in the end, the guy realizer he was seeing from the wrong angle and, perhaps, rething whatever prejudice he has.
Good article!

I love how the forum trolls all assume everyone here is Christian and that The Bible is a quotable source for an argument.

Did anyone else play The Ballad of Gay Tony? While I was disappointed that the main character wasn't gay (and I couldn't choose to be gay within the game), Luis and Tony had one of the most interesting relationships I've ever seen in a video game. For a game that's most certainly played by homophobic 13 year old boys, I was thrilled to see such a decent portrayal of that segment of society. Luis, while straight, doesn't just work for Tony for the money, even if he implies that he does. Many times over the course of the game he could have walked out on him and let him self destruct. But Luis stuck with him, and out of their conversations you got a sense of mutual respect and trust. Tony loved Luis like a son or a brother and never once does the game itself imply a sexual connotation to this bond.

ben---neb:

Ho hum, if those rules even exist they'll be in the Old Testament cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death did not overthrow his commands on the scantity of marriage therefore it did not overrule the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

Matthew: "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it".

ThrobbingEgo:

boholikeu:

Because his mods are short experiments on how seamlessly integrate narrative and gameplay, and since the protagonist's homosexuality has nothing to do with the rest of the mod it just sticks out like a big red herring. I wrote a longer post about all this when the article was first posted, but you can't just identify the protagonist as gay within the first 10 seconds of a game that takes place in couple's therapy and then not reference it at all for the rest of the game.

Why not? How many games/movies/books make a passing reference to a character's heterosexual relationship, without it playing a significant role in the plot? Why shouldn't the author of such a mod make a passing reference to his character's sexuality, gender identity or whatever? Why does it have to be a big deal or a huge plot point?

Answer: it doesn't.

How would it have been appropriate for you? If every reference to a character's homosexuality was followed by a quest for acceptance? Why is it so objectionable that a gay man made a game featuring a couple that just happens to be gay?

You're reading too much into my posts. I have no problem with a gay man making a game featuring a couple that just happens to be gay. My complaint here is about execution. If you are going to make a short, character-driven mod, any information you give about the protagonist in the first few seconds of game play is going to stand out, especially if it's "controversial". In Handle With Care, the main character's homosexuality isn't subtly introduced as a small "personal element"; it's the only description we get of the main character until the second act.

Edit: In other words, I wanted the creator to either "follow through" with subject of homosexuality we're given in the beginning of game, or move that information to the middle of the story where so that we can actually have a character that just happens to be homosexual rather than a character that is defined by it. As it is the player isn't introduced to the true theme of the game (repression) until later in the game.

ben---neb:

JaymesFogarty:

ben---neb:

Lusty:
[quote="ben---neb" post="6.164468.4292124"]
In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

SNIPquote]

I have no problems with answering your question, I do not feel baited and thank you for being so polite.

SNAP

It strikes me that you know what you're talking about, which is very good. Please, can you answer me why sex inside marriage isn't sinful, as I've asked every Christian in my nearby church, and I can't find the answer. I'm just curious.

I'll try...There is nothing wrong with sex, far from it, God gave mankind a sex drive for a reason. He commanded us to 'be fruitful' then made it a joy and a pleasure to do so as well as making us want to do so. Which is great, reproduction is fun! God, as it were, loves sex, indeed as he created it. it was 'very good'

But it has a time and a place and that time and aplce is when a man and a woman are married. This is because sex is more than just the physical aspect, there is an intimacy involved, it is treated in our modern culture as something to throw away at every avaivle opportunity. But it is so much more than that. It is about love, trust, commitment and considering the poetntial for pregancy: responsilbitly as well. That's why sex and marriage go hand in hand and when a man and a woman do actually obey this command it results in something quite wonderful...or so i've inferred, not married myself so can't speak from experiance. Hope this clears things up for you, if you have more questions just message me and I'll happily naswer them.

Thank you very much for replying, I think I'm starting to understand. one more question, if you can bear my ignorance. Can you explain why He made the human race, knowing that they would succumb to temptation and sin. Or why it is our fault that our ancestors sinned, (original sin.)

Randomtime:

ben---neb:

Ho hum, if those rules even exist they'll be in the Old Testament cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death did not overthrow his commands on the scantity of marriage therefore it did not overrule the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

Matthew: "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it".

Indeed, thank you for reminding me. I should have been more specfic, if I remember correctly Old Testement Law falls into three catorgries: cerminonial law, civil law and moral law. Cerimonial law was all about the worship of God (sacrifrices, priests, the temple, etc) and it was that that Jesus ablosihed by his death on the cross.

The moral laws are summerised in the Ten Commandments and stand for all time. This law is what Jesus fulfilled.

The civil law has also been overthrown but there is still wisdom in it.

Homosexuality falls under the moral law of God against lustful sins.

ben---neb:

Indeed, thank you for reminding me. I should have been more specfic, if I remember correctly Old Testement Law falls into three catorgries: cerminonial law, civil law and moral law. Cerimonial law was all about the worship of God (sacrifrices, priests, the temple, etc) and it was that that Jesus ablosihed by his death on the cross.

The moral laws are summerised in the Ten Commandments and stand for all time. This law is what Jesus fulfilled.

The civil law has also been overthrown but there is still wisdom in it.

Homosexuality falls under the moral law of God against lustful sins.

ben---neb, no thoughtful reply to my questions? I feel a bit disappointed that you seem to have passed over my comment to you...

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