234: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That

 Pages PREV 1 2 3
 

boholikeu:

ben---neb:

Indeed, thank you for reminding me. I should have been more specfic, if I remember correctly Old Testement Law falls into three catorgries: cerminonial law, civil law and moral law. Cerimonial law was all about the worship of God (sacrifrices, priests, the temple, etc) and it was that that Jesus ablosihed by his death on the cross.

The moral laws are summerised in the Ten Commandments and stand for all time. This law is what Jesus fulfilled.

The civil law has also been overthrown but there is still wisdom in it.

Homosexuality falls under the moral law of God against lustful sins.

ben---neb, no thoughtful reply to my questions? I feel a bit disappointed that you seem to have passed over my comment to you...

What? Where? I'm so sorry I've had a lot of questions to answer and I probably overlooked yours by a mistake. If you ask me them again I'll do my best to reply.

Was this intended as a social experiment from the beginning, or did it just turn into one?

I'd love to actually play the game and its predecessor, given the mixed reception they've received *COUGH COUGH*, but I lack Episode 2 to use the mods, so I'm having to stick with hearsay as evidence for their 'greatness', which is apparently totally justified.

As for the homosexuality/religion discussion, I'm sorry to see the forum split into two 'sides', but maybe you should accept that the discussion is ultimately futile.
Neither side will win as both have equally valid points, and the politeness can only go so far before the entire discussion degrades into an argument not worth having. So far I'm actually surprised at the lack of abusive comments. Maybe such users are still recovering from the initial shock.

I myself am gay, but I don't make a massive deal about it. People generally assume I'm straight because I don't conform to the stereotype that gays are associated with; overly-flamboyant people with the 'gay voice' and a fixation on dress sense and other bullshit.

In any case, it's said that the game doesn't make homosexuality the focus; from what I've read it appears to be more of a commentary on the human mind and our ability to repress memories. Feel free to correct me on this.

I just find it sad that the community finds it necessary to split and take sides on this issue so determinedly.

Prophetic Heresy:
Was this intended as a social experiment from the beginning, or did it just turn into one?

I would like to think that as that would be awesome.

I like the article unfortunately I do not have EP2 though this did make me consider buying it.

Last my two cents on the whole bible stuff. Doesn't the bible say be nice to your fellow man. If it does don't discriminate them as that is not nice. Lastly as ben---neb said it is a sin of lust so if it is just a sin why is it that it is treated like the worst sin ever. As is we all apparently sin so why not be hateful of all sinners which means everyone not just some kind of pick and chose method.

ur a fag

Please ignore me, I have an odd sense of humour. Personally I think active homophobia is for short-minded retards who do not deserve consciousness, and that people cannot be classified as 'reasonable' when they are against gay rights.

I also played your mod a while ago, and it was quite good, I think. Although it was almost IMPOSSIBLE to save your marriage. It was much easier to let it all break down. But I liked it, and I'm still looking forward to the next installment. A submarine, wasn't it?

There's a lot of false pretenses here based on the Bible and whatnot... actually from both sides of it. ben's first post in here was pretty harmless, but quite a few people actually baited him about his opinion on the subject, and it suddenly turned into Bible war.

Anyway, for the creator of the game to write the article as if he was surprised is the biggest surprise for me. He has to have known that this would happen, and honestly, for him to come off as saying stuff like (paraphrase) "I expected people to talk about the gameplay problems, instead of the homosexuality" just seems to me like he's playing dumb.

You know that this is a volatile subject (as evidenced by the mom-in-tears story), in a game played (probably) mainly by teens to early 20s males, most of which aren't gay. To honestly be surprised that this crowd as a whole would accept the premise with no rebuttal is naive at best, and I'm just not buying the fact that he didn't think this would happen. He's (imo) just trying to push the boundary of games a bit, and see what happens..

And honestly, I'm not upset with him for doing so. I'm not gay, but I can imagine that it's a hard lifestyle that he wants to relate to. So for him to create his own game where the characters are gay in order to push boundaries a bit is fine. I can understand that... just call it like it is, though. Don't tiptoe around and play the victim when this response comes.

All that wall of text said, though.. It is an interesting test of the culture, and a well-written, if naive, article.

RebelRising:
I've said it before, and I will say it again: wonderful article.

Article good.

Readers bad.

Lusty:

BestJaxx:
I've had long aspirations to work in making video games. I want to be in a David Jaffe position, or Todd Howard, of Cliff Blizensky, and when I get there, I want to make a game with a gay main character. I'm never immersed into games either, and it's not entirely because I can't relate to the character on an orientation basis, but certainly that fact remains.

In Fallout 3, there's a women in Megaton that you can buy sex from. Throughout the entire game, she is your only option. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are able to make a choice, and none of your options are prostitutes. I wasn't so sure I would like the game in the first place, but when I found that out, it was the next game on my shopping list. I didn't want Dragon Age because of the steamy man-love; I wanted it because I could finally play a character in an RPG similar to myself.

Dragon Age is an interesting example. I'm slightly curious as to how they managed to get away with the gay relationships without the whole Fox News explosion they had with Mass Effect. Maybe it's because everyone keeps their pants on, or maybe it's because the sex scenes are so cringeworthy that they just let them off.

I can't help but think the reason that Faux News avoided the issue was because of the hell storm raised by their "article" on Mass Effect. That or maybe they don't even know yet.

Homophobia unfortunately is one of the biggest hurdles to human equality. It isn't likely to change since most religions regard it is as evil and unnatural, and religion never has to answer to reason, logic, or even morality since it is assumed to come from a higher source that is not allowed to be put under any scrutiny.

Religion isn't going anywhere unfortunately. I am pretty certain it will plague humanities future as it has its past. This means it would take a collective redefinition of which scripture people ignore and people fight to the death to believe in. History shows us many examples of things people have chosen not to follow from the bible. As time goes on people 'choose' what is important. We can only hope that somehow as time goes on and more of us live along side homosexuals that this stupidity ends. I am not holding my breath.

Anyway I appreciated this statement, 'And don't worry, we won't try to seduce you. The sex would be awful.' I am a good looking guy (straight), with a few gay friends. Despite this none of them have ever tried anything, I think they understand more than anyone that you can't force someone into a different sexuality.

I'm sorry to keep laboring the point - but I still don't get why anybody would consider homosexuality is wrong. Yes, some clever forms of reason can cause us to conclude that homosexuality is wrong (I count Kant in this clever form of reasoning, as homosexuality is something that, if acted as a rule in a "universal kingdom of ends" (I.E. everybody did it) then the human race would come to an end. Therefore, rationally - homosexuality is immoral, as it cannot be rationally willed). The obvious flaw to this is clear, not everybody is homosexual, therefore we have no problem.

Additionally, the bible cannot be taken as a legitimate source of morality, if God exists, and made moral laws, these laws have to have came from somewhere (you can argue that they don't and God made them up arbitrarily, but that means that there is no reason why we should be following them, in a strictly moral sense, as they were made up). Therefore, morality in this scene has to come from reason, and not because "God said so". For myself, I can find no reasonable explanation why homosexuality is morally wrong - apart from the Kantian, which I have addressed earlier (Aquinas argued this too, in a similar sort of way, he said that homosexuality would be counter to one of our purposes - reproduction of the species, and therefore immoral). So, how can you say it's immoral? When two people choose to have a relationship, they are both of an age to make that decision, and they both want to make that decision, what have you to say to stop them. It is utter arrogance that some Christians do (I'm not saying that you, ben---neb share the views of the Westbro bapitist church, or any other orginisation such as that) try to stop these relationships.

I've ranted, sorry about that.

Good article. Well written and and it let me see things from the perspective of a gay gamer, which I don't often get to do. I might download that mod.

Hey he lives in Fersno, anyways sorry about stupid people who hate gay people for no reason other than being scared of something out of the normal. Oh and the word gay and Fag don't mean homosexuall anymore really, and while it does bring up those painfully memorys for you people who don't have the same insight or experance can't really understand what you feel and sometime you just have to take that into account, and I wounld not mind a game about a gay main charater.

Noelveiga:
I've always though, and I swear I'm being dead serious about this, that Gears of War would be a far, far superior game if the two main characters were openly gay. Not a single change to anything else, just swap the bromance for honest romance. I hope somebody, at some point, shows the guts to do it and follow the concept all the way to wherever it leads, see what happens.

Dom looks deep into Marcus eyes and says "your the one I've always loved" and shed a single tear as the go in for a passionate hug to kiss.

ben---neb:

What? Where? I'm so sorry I've had a lot of questions to answer and I probably overlooked yours by a mistake. If you ask me them again I'll do my best to reply.

Well, I hate to repost when it's easily search-able in the last page, but here you are:

"

ben---neb:

Sure, the Bible was written by humans but God was behind the writing of the Bible and kept them from error. Look at it this way: your God, you want to reveal the truth about yourself, your going to make 100% sure the humans don't write anything wrong. Because of this then it is still logically sound to take the Bible was being true.

Does the Lord's influence extend to translations? How about the decisions about which books are cannon and which were to become apocrypha? Where do you draw the line? People blaspheme God's words every day to further their own power and greed, so I don't think that it's that far a stretch to consider that the modern Bible might have also been tainted by man's sinful nature. I think it's far more logically sound to question what we hear of God from other men and make our own decisions based on what He tells us through our hearts.

The biggest problem I have with lumping homosexuality in with the rest of the sins of lust is that I can't figure out how homosexuality is hurting someone. All the other sins you mentioned either hurt yourself or someone else, but I cannot see homosexuality as being harmful unless you count choosing not to have children as a sin as well."

fenrirvii:
Anyway, for the creator of the game to write the article as if he was surprised is the biggest surprise for me. He has to have known that this would happen, and honestly, for him to come off as saying stuff like (paraphrase) "I expected people to talk about the gameplay problems, instead of the homosexuality" just seems to me like he's playing dumb.

You know that this is a volatile subject (as evidenced by the mom-in-tears story), in a game played (probably) mainly by teens to early 20s males, most of which aren't gay. To honestly be surprised that this crowd as a whole would accept the premise with no rebuttal is naive at best, and I'm just not buying the fact that he didn't think this would happen. He's (imo) just trying to push the boundary of games a bit, and see what happens..

And honestly, I'm not upset with him for doing so. I'm not gay, but I can imagine that it's a hard lifestyle that he wants to relate to. So for him to create his own game where the characters are gay in order to push boundaries a bit is fine. I can understand that... just call it like it is, though. Don't tiptoe around and play the victim when this response comes.

I felt exactly the same way, actually. The article is very well written, but I still have a hard time believing he didn't expect this to become an issue. As I mentioned earlier, you can't drop a controversial topic within the first few seconds of gameplay like that and be surprised that people focus on it.

Mcupobob:

Noelveiga:
I've always though, and I swear I'm being dead serious about this, that Gears of War would be a far, far superior game if the two main characters were openly gay.

Dom looks deep into Marcus eyes and says "your the one I've always loved" and shed a single tear as the go in for a passionate hug to kiss.

No, see? I don't think you'd need to go that way at all. It's a damn warzone, there's not much room for that. In Uncharted Drake and Elena don't really do that much, since they're typically being shot at but you get the feeling that they really, really like each other all the time, even when they're double crossing each other. I believe if you made it obvious that Dom and Marcus are gay it wouldn't change the things they do in the game much or at all, but it'd put all the events in a new light which, at least to me (and I'm a heterosexual male) would feel far more interesting and original.

Also, while we're at it, I have no doubt that the possibility was considered, at least like something to avoid. They did drop Dom's wife into the mix just so we'd be clear that these guys are not gay. That tells me they knew that feeling was there and thought they had to put an end to that.

What I'm saying is that if they're gonna sit down and go "hey, we should give one of them a love interest, otherwise won't they seem to be gay?" somebody in the room goes "Yeah, won't they?" and at least considers that as an option.

boholikeu:

I felt exactly the same way, actually. The article is very well written, but I still have a hard time believing he didn't expect this to become an issue. As I mentioned earlier, you can't drop a controversial topic within the first few seconds of gameplay like that and be surprised that people focus on it.

Well, he clearly did things this way at least with a degree of curiosity as to what the reaction was going to be. I believe he, like me, would have wanted a "so what" reaction indicative of normalcy.

Once he didn't get that, though, it's hard to determine how to report on it. If he had shown outrage (which is what the reactions he mentions cause in me) he'd have been dismissed as an activist setting up a trap for bigots to spring. If he plays the "this is normal and they shouldn't have reacted like that" card, he gets criticised for choosing a controversial subject and being surprised at the controversy. When what he's trying to say is that the subject should not be controversial at all, his approach seems like the best one to me.

This is the best article I've read on this site in..well...ever. It had the most thought provoking content, and provided me with a previous insight into how somebody gay would view and take in content like this. Bravo.
I'm going to opt out of the theological debate that is forming in this thread, because I don't want to post and repost 1,000 times.

boholikeu:

ben---neb:

What? Where? I'm so sorry I've had a lot of questions to answer and I probably overlooked yours by a mistake. If you ask me them again I'll do my best to reply.

Well, I hate to repost when it's easily search-able in the last page, but here you are:

"

ben---neb:

SNIP

Does the Lord's influence extend to translations? How about the decisions about which books are cannon and which were to become apocrypha? Where do you draw the line? People blaspheme God's words every day to further their own power and greed, so I don't think that it's that far a stretch to consider that the modern Bible might have also been tainted by man's sinful nature. I think it's far more logically sound to question what we hear of God from other men and make our own decisions based on what He tells us through our hearts.

The biggest problem I have with lumping homosexuality in with the rest of the sins of lust is that I can't figure out how homosexuality is hurting someone. All the other sins you mentioned either hurt yourself or someone else, but I cannot see homosexuality as being harmful unless you count choosing not to have children as a sin as well."

Ah, I worked out what happened, I PMed my answer to you but for some reason it didn;t make it.

Here's my answer:

It's interesting that you should talk about translation and the compling of the Bible. Translation wise the same argument could apply that God would work to stop errors and you should study just how the Bible was translated: by men of extreme learning who would double/triple check that their translation was not in error. And even then consiering that maybe a small error would occur would it destroy the huge truths in the Bible? Unlikely. It would only affect one verse out of thousands.

And as to its compliation the intersting thing about that was that it all came together without any formal council or committee and with incredibly little disput conisdering the argumententive nature of mankind. We have to see God's hand directing the whole church to accept the Bible as he wants it.

And yes, men can use the Bible as they want, they can change the truth, we must question everything we HEAR but no what we READ in the Bible. The Bible is 100% true (yes, yes, similes, metpahors, poems are there as well). But humans 'explaining' the Bible might not be. Just because you may not like the what the Bible is saying does not make it false.

Robert Yang:
Not That There's Anything Wrong With That

For straight gamers, videogames can often be an escape from a painful reality. But for gay gamers, videogames offer little respite from prejudice and homophobia. Robert Yang recalls his experience developing a Half-Life 2 mod featuring gay characters and the response it provoked.

Read Full Article

I'm about as straight, white and male as it's possible to be; and I have never used "gay", "fgt" or any other words meaning homosexual as an insult. Nor for that matter have I ever used "bi*ch", "whore" or "slut", nor any racial epithet. It's nothing moral (other than the age-old adage of "treat others as you'd want to be treated yourself"), it's just not something I would ever do. I don't understand why people do. To anybody who has, I'd ask the question: what's the point? Why speak to others like that? What do you accomplish? Does it fulfil some kind of emotional need? Do you have a douchebag quota that needs to get filled?

JaymesFogarty:
[quote="ben---neb" post="6.164468.4293354"] Thank you very much for replying, I think I'm starting to understand. one more question, if you can bear my ignorance. Can you explain why He made the human race, knowing that they would succumb to temptation and sin. Or why it is our fault that our ancestors sinned, (original sin.)

Ok so after much snipping, here is the answer to your question. The current belief in Catholicism (to which i subscribe to (good benefits!)) Is that God does not exist in Time, He doesn't see past, present, and future, but all of it at once. So He sort of is living in each moment as if it was the present to him. At the same time of doing something, he is seeing the result, as well as the end of Time, all in one instant. Mind-bending, no?
EDIT: Yes it was Saint Augustine who came up with the idea God exists outside of time.

ON TOPIC (took a while): Once i get home from work I will most certainly be trying this mod out. (can i get it right of steam?) It seems to be an interesting idea made manifest.

Deofuta:

JaymesFogarty:
[quote="ben---neb" post="6.164468.4293354"] Thank you very much for replying, I think I'm starting to understand. one more question, if you can bear my ignorance. Can you explain why He made the human race, knowing that they would succumb to temptation and sin. Or why it is our fault that our ancestors sinned, (original sin.)

Ok so after much snipping, here is the answer to your question. The current belief in Catholicism (to which i subscribe to (good benefits!)) Is that God does not exist in Time, He doesn't see past, present, and future, but all of it at once. So He sort of is living in each moment as if it was the present to him. At the same time of doing something, he is seeing the result, as well as the end of Time, all in one instant. Mind-bending, no?
EDIT: Yes it was Saint Augustine who came up with the idea God exists outside of time.

ON TOPIC (took a while): Once i get home from work I will most certainly be trying this mod out. (can i get it right of steam?) It seems to be an interesting idea made manifest.

Oh okay. So he doesn't really see us throughout different points in time, he sort of just sees everything on a slate at once?

The mod, while interesting in approach, is one that I haven't played myself but I do not think it would appeal to me. Not in so much that the character is gay (as it comes up only at the beginning from what I understand) but that the game-play itself is not what I seek. But that being said you are not required to play out the character as if he was Leisure Suit Larry, so it becomes a small throw away detail. Much less important then the feet on the woman in portal even, as those are only seen and never explained at all.

Finding out that people cannot get past the gay aspect to get into the game-play annoys me a bit. As others on here have stated the characters that we usually play are far removed from who we are; why would an offhand reference to the characters sexuality be any different then discovering that the character is half dragon?

You also cannot find a reason to object to the same sex lifestyle without running to religion, as the rest of society's laws have nothing against it. Which is something I have hope for. Religion used to be the whole of the law, thus a worry about eating improperly cooked pork became against the moral laws to do. With the police force being separate from the religious authority in my country there is no automatic connection between moral laws and enforced laws.

Instead the enforced laws are the ones that society as a whole has evolved to require. No killing - reduces work force and is harmful to society. No stealing - is disrespectful of the right of property and ownership. No slavery - people have individual rights and cannot be treated like property. Etc. With in that context of the good of the society same sex relationships break no laws. Caring relationships benefit society, regardless of who is involved.

I have played Army of Two and I found myself wishing that the writers had been able to give the characters a more romantic relationship, playing it over the top for laughs even. They got so close to that edge as it was, (as most buddy comedies have the same story arc as love stories, but without that confusing sex aspect) but never were willing to walk over it.

Returning to my first point, I could see objecting to a game if it forced you to play out a certain sexual relationship as part of game play. You have to score with the princess before you can get to the next map/level. Being forced to do anything is objectionable, and I personally found myself wanting the leisure suit Larry games to allow more freedom in the answers then the very narrow game-play they gave. I wouldn't have launched the game if Larry was looking for a same sex partner, but I do not think I would play the games now if they were coming out new. Back in the 90's I was a teen, sex was confusing and this game allowed some of that fantasy. The most recent console Larry I never touched because I no longer enjoy that escapist fantasy.

With more and more games allowing some level of freedom in the characters we start to lose the scripted story, but the story the players are allowed to make up for their characters becomes richer. In the text adventure days your character was more or less whoever you thought you were as you explored the cave. Then graphics caught on and we saw who we were and it became more limited. I am That Guy, in the purple pants, blue sweater and black cape. Tomorrow? We may be able to script the overall story beginning to end. Or perhaps another step forward into sensory replacement will bring a return to simple stories once more.

ben---neb:
But putting aside my moral disapproval of homosexuality (yes, I have one and no, it doesn't mean I hate gays or want to beat them up. If I went round hating all homosexuals I'd also have to hate everyone who has sex outside of marriage or as an affair and I have far better things to do with my time)

I wouldn't say having an affair is on the same level as being gay... or that having sex outside of marriage is as bad as having an affair... But what would I know? I only have experience with 1 of the 3.

I enjoyed the article, and have no quarrel with gay people, inside or outside of games. In fact, I daresay, I love my gay friends.

ben---neb:

And of course it should be remembered that Christianity is not about a list of rules people have to keep. No one can earn salvation through works. We all sin whether that be homosexulaity or some other thing. We all deserve to go to hell, we all need to repent and ask for the salvation granted to us by Jesus's death on the cross.

If homosexuality is truly a sin, than by definition all sex is a sin, and I will be sinning day and night without repentance. :P

Wolveria:

ben---neb:
But putting aside my moral disapproval of homosexuality (yes, I have one and no, it doesn't mean I hate gays or want to beat them up. If I went round hating all homosexuals I'd also have to hate everyone who has sex outside of marriage or as an affair and I have far better things to do with my time)

SNIP

ben---neb:

And of course it should be remembered that Christianity is not about a list of rules people have to keep. No one can earn salvation through works. We all sin whether that be homosexulaity or some other thing. We all deserve to go to hell, we all need to repent and ask for the salvation granted to us by Jesus's death on the cross.

If homosexuality is truly a sin, than by definition all sex is a sin, and I will be sinning day and night without repentance. :P

Ah yes but sex is allowed (in fact positively encouraged) within marriage and marriage should be between a man and a woman. So no, not all sex is a sin, only sex outside of marriage is.

I got a good chuckle out of the rail gun comment.

Reading the religious comments here, makes me remember something about how God gave man the freedom to choose. So, how is it that we can have laws that are arguably based on some moral code in a religious text that effectively takes away the freedom of choice given to us by that same religious text?

I suspect more than the lack of sales a game would generate by putting gay characters into a video game as NPCs is along the same lines why games don't have children running around. The game "publishers" are terrified that the Grand Theft Auto syndrome would take root and people would live out their fetishes of murder & deviancy in an otherwise unblemished world of vampires, zombies, aliens, theft, murder, war, hot coffee, & 3d rat extermination.

I will completely ignore the argument going on and say instead that I never realized that there was a discrimination against gays in videogames, and this article has shone the light on things for me. I liked it.

ben---neb:

No one can earn salvation through works. We all sin whether that be homosexulaity or some other thing. We all deserve to go to hell, we all need to repent and ask for the salvation granted to us by Jesus's death on the cross.

See, Catholicism doesn't see it that way, in fact the opposite: faith without works is meaningless. Just wanted to toss that jab in. We also don't really give a damn about homosexuals, the official teaching is, of course, that it's "wrong", but that it's wrong to treat homosexuals poorly, as well.
To get to the real meat, I'm another who'd like to see more (NOT STEREOTYPICAL "FAIRIES"!!) homosexuals in games. In my opinion, one of the biggest reasons so much homophobia exists (I was shocked that someone actually tried to spit on the author, though, maybe I'm too sheltered in my rural existence) is because, for a lot of people, the only exposure to homosexuals they get is the media portrayals of the prancing, lisping "fairy", or the news shots of hairy guys in assless leather chaps at a pride parade. I spent 7 years in the Army, I knew plenty of guys who were definitely gay, but didn't exhibit a single one of the popular stereotypical behaviors (except, of course, being sexually attracted to dudes). Of course, the college kids who "come out" and immediately adopt the stereotypical mannerisms don't help this, maybe I'm wrong, but I've always felt like, "Dude, you're gay. Your balls didn't fall off and your vocal cords didn't tighten overnight. Stop being a walking stereotype, it's hard to take you seriously/" Of course, people can adopt any mannerisms they want, I feel bad for straight guys cursed with a lisp, though.

Give us popular representation of real people, who are gay, not the stereotypes. The author's mod is a step in the right direction, but throw it in more than once. I remember a short story by David Drake (I guess an offshoot of his "Tank Lords" series that I never really read); at the end, one of the characters, a stereotypical tough guy who at one point was horrendously injured and took it all with a grunt and a curse, is discussing his plans for the evening. He has a date--not with the "big blond", but the new kid, a scrawny little guy, "But he's just so...cute!" And that's it, just in stride; his sexuality isn't made into a big deal, because it isn't.

Wanna get society over this bullshit? Stop throwing in token stereotypes. If somebody put a "Step'in Fetchit" black character in a game ("LAWDY, LAWDY, FEETS DON' FAIL ME NOW!!", there'd be justifiable outrage. Why do we treat homosexuality this way, then? (Or is this a teething period, like there was with blacks: do stereotypes now lead the way for realistic portrayals later? Let's hope.)

Regardless of all that, the author's mod is a move in the right direction, and his cognizance that calling people "Fags" in games isn't meant as an insult to his sexual orientation is good, too. Doesn't make it right, but I admire sensibility. Besides, isn't teabagging your opponent, you know, kinda gay?

Wait, this game is about marriage counselling? I'll take crate stacking over that any day of the week.

first of all, disclosure: I'm hetero and have no gay friends (that I am aware of), and personally find the idea of gay sex a bit icky. But other than that, I don't have a problem with homosexuality. also, I have two or three personalities residing in my head at the moment so I may swerve off the road here and there.

Cabbages, oooh yeah.

See what I mean?

Now, whilst I can in part sympathise with the author vis a vis the reactions he got to the insertion of his character's sexuality into the game, I would have to disagree that this is something you can do and expect it to go without comment.

Heterosexuality is the norm in our species; after all it is what allows us to propagate the human race. As such, it's deeply rooted in many aspects of our culture, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the games we play very often have apparent sexual metaphors attached, some very much by design, some by accident (like when someone makes a new corporate logo that to them signfies the synergy and drive of a dynamic business but to some guy looks like an erect penis or a pair of titties, and when he points it out you can never see anything but that in the logo - just look at how they drew Norway/Sweden/Finland on a Euro coin and you'll see what I mean...)

So therefore it's normal to put heterosexual symbology into movies, books and games that heterosexual men design. But it's not necessarily vulgar in a crude way ;often it simply exists and can be interpreted any which way the viewer chooses, or not at all. Ask an 8 year old what they see when the you look at Lara Croft and it's just a girl in short pants. They don't see Conan the barbarian and his huge sword as any kind of a metaphor for sexual dominance - it's just conan, chopping off heads. None of the soldiers you see in MW2 are fat or ugly, but the fact that they are all rugged handsome chaps is not played up. It's subconcious.

(Personally I feel that putting any kind of romance type scenario as per Mass Effect or DA:O where you can actually "seal the deal" in-game is seriously retarded, and the equivalent of drawing a titty-fuck on the bathroom wall. Look at the difference between those games and KOTOR2 where you had full-on romance sub-plots that could be fairly "steamy" without ever having to see some nerd developer's idea of "hot sex". Seriously...)

sorry, had to wipe off my screen there, where was I? Oh yes:

Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not the norm. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a minority which for better or worse is still taboo in many cultures in the world.
The real issue here is that the author has convinced himself that it's totally normal to be gay, and that a person's being gay is something that everybody should be comfortable with, that one should be able to walk into a room and go "hey everyone, I'm queer" and nobody should cringe. Doesn't work like that.
Now I have not played this mod, but my understanding of it is that apart from the one inference to the character being gay, nothing else in the story requires him to he gay. (correct me if I am wrong) So what is the point? It can only stick out like a sore thumb as saying "I want to let you know I am gay". Dude, we don't care. We don't want to know. Duke Nukem never actually *told* us how maby orgies he had before breakfast (but you could infer that it was at least 4)

I don't stick my heterosexuality in anyone's face (unless she asks :) and I think it's only fair that you don't do the same. But if you DO put that label into the game, then you have already pigeon-holed yourself. So either way, you are stuck.

Of course you are free to make any kind of mod or game you like, but my advice is that if you want to make a game where a character's being gay **is an integral part of the story**, then go for it, and make it work, because you will have made a very valid and hopefully very engaging tale that, you never know, might help to change the way some people think about your sexuality.

Otherwise, don't mention it at all, and let people put two and two together themselves. Let them imagine what the male (or female, oh yeah baby) leads got up to when the credits roll, but don't force them to watch it.

Just two things
1. I thought it was an interesting article, I've never considered that perspective before.
2. Your article made me angry, not because of anything to do with homosexuality but because you said that simply because you can't escape from reality in video games no one else should be able to. Personally I don't care if you are gay or as devout as the pope but your lack of enjoyment shouldn't stop anyone else, and if you can say that then why couldn't someone say that they dislike gays so no games should be made about them.

There've been a few other gay gamer type articles that I've read, but this one has really eloquently discussed the topic. The online world sees so much as horrendous taboo while those same people would probably be mostly non-vocal on the issue (at least in company). Almost anything is liable for attack and the slightest comment that the protagonist is gay completely overrides everything else. It's pretty ridiculous. It's good to see games with different perspectives getting made (I'm equally bored of tedious space marines).

I'm sorry your subtle approach was bashed and Dragon Age 2 is taking a lot of heat for Anders's bisexuality, but I must say the only way for gay characters to be accurately portrayed is for gay people like yoourself to make them. Up til now, gays in games were put in by straight people from the perspective of straight people. That entropy will probably last at least another decade. My personal preference is that games should leave sexuality out altogether unless it serves a character development or plot enhancement role. I like how BioWare handles things overall, making sex a perk of developing a meaningful relationship with an ally instead of a minigame for points. Even in God of War, Kratos's rampant sexual sprees were said to be a way of him trying to hide his grief and shame under the sweat and musk, so that was character development. Now there is a place for Duke Nukem, but can anyone really argue the Duke himself isn't just there to be a funny parody of our American culture? He should be the exception, not the rule.

ben---neb:

Angerwing:

ben---neb:

Ho hum, if those rules even exist they'll be in the Old Testament cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death did not overthrow his commands on the scantity of marriage therefore it did not overrule the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

So how's that religious buffet? The "homosexuality is evil" came from Leviticus. The book that, you know, also spawned the laws I mentioned. Also, if your woman is having her period, she is unclean. It is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord if you are to touch her during this event.

Not just Leviticus also references in Romans, Timothy, and Jude (http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective) And as marriage between a man and woman and sex only in marriage is a constant commandment throughout the whole Bible then it still stands today.

In general the technique used for working out which cermonial laws were overthrown and which weren't goes: is it specifically rejected in the NT (such as the sacrifrice of animals)? Or is it still supported? Also a certain degree of common sense should be applied like in the case of Shrimp and mixed fibres.

And of course it should be remembered that Christianity is not about a list of rules people have to keep. No one can earn salvation through works. We all sin whether that be homosexulaity or some other thing. We all deserve to go to hell, we all need to repent and ask for the salvation granted to us by Jesus's death on the cross.

And to continue on this, as all sin is condemnable, TECHNICALLY a little white lie earns us the same condemnation as murder. Honestly, everything we do has a tinge of greed, envy, lust, or what have you. So being gay is equally as bad as absolutely everything else we do, but everything we ever do is as bad as homosexuality. I know I repeated myself, but the nature of sin is something that escapes our culture. We rate sin from harmless to bad, we claim some are forgivable while some aren't, and turn a blind eye to our own faults. Sure it's bad to be gay. But if you want to get technical it's also bad to be straight.

I think the author gets my sentiment here with the one line: straight people can better identify with straight people. This is one thing that always gets me when I'm watching a show, playing a game, etc., and my favorite character turns out to be gay -- while I have no beef with the principle of them being gay, on the other hand, I can now not identify with their romantic preferences, and if this is a big part of the book's theme or something, I suddenly drop off the map. What's it like to be in love with another girl? You got me. I have no idea. And now I'm confused, rather than immersed. Should gay people be in games? Absolutely. Am I going to lose touch with the character? Yes, if being gay is that important to the plot. I'm not sure how one gets around that.

Also, wow, we can't have *one* thread about this kind of thing without my religion coming up. I guess I should just accept that it's the Internet and I can't do anything about it. At least I've stopped trying to convince anyone that we can be good/tolerant people, because there are so many who just aren't going to buy it.

Robert Yang:
Not That There's Anything Wrong With That

For straight gamers, video games can often be an escape from a painful reality. But for gay gamers, video games offer little respite from prejudice and homophobia. Robert Yang recalls his experience developing a Half-Life 2 mod featuring gay characters and the response it provoked.

Read Full Article

I have a minor question. Is 'partner' a bad word to use, or homophobic? You mentioned 'partner' being in there with 'faggot' as examples of homophobic words that distance you from everybody else, but I had the impression that 'wife and husband' did the same thing by implying that one has to be one and the other has to be the other.

And obviously if two men get in a relationship or marry, one's not 'the woman' while the other is 'the man'.

Which word is better then, than 'partner' or 'spouse'?

I'm honestly asking this as a question, and I know it has little to do with the article as a whole (which honestly I thought was a pretty good article as a whole).

Aurora Firestorm:
I think the author gets my sentiment here with the one line: straight people can better identify with straight people. This is one thing that always gets me when I'm watching a show, playing a game, etc., and my favorite character turns out to be gay -- while I have no beef with the principle of them being gay, on the other hand, I can now not identify with their romantic preferences, and if this is a big part of the book's theme or something, I suddenly drop off the map. What's it like to be in love with another girl? You got me. I have no idea. And now I'm confused, rather than immersed. Should gay people be in games? Absolutely. Am I going to lose touch with the character? Yes, if being gay is that important to the plot. I'm not sure how one gets around that.

Also, wow, we can't have *one* thread about this kind of thing without my religion coming up. I guess I should just accept that it's the Internet and I can't do anything about it. At least I've stopped trying to convince anyone that we can be good/tolerant people, because there are so many who just aren't going to buy it.

"What's it like being in love with another girl"; it's really pretty much the same as being in love with a guy, except they have different parts that you're not attracted to. The only real time that somebody should completely lose disconnect over what it's like to love somebody is if the game is completely about the physical relationship (at which point you're playing a pornographic game and yeah, it's probably the wrong game for you) or if you have no frame of reference to romantic love at all (this is where asexual/aromantic gamers might be left in the cold I'm afraid, but that's true whether or not the game is about a gay or straight couple).

 Pages PREV 1 2 3

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here