On Nazis

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Romans totally killed non-combatants and there are games about McDonalds food being bad.

crimsonshrouds:

8-Bit_Jack:
snip

first, I never said anything about the writing being the best. I admit the writing is not the greatest.

Second No need to call the series a load of tripe you aren't causing me to like it any less you are just showing how much of an ass you are.

Third the series is quite obvious about where hirano got his ideas from.

Fourth i only brought up hellsing because it uses Nazis as the villian in an interesting way unlike a lot of other things with nazis as villians.

Fifth quoting me just so you could say bad things of Hellsing tells me you are just a very sad individual whose head is lodged up their own anus.

On the contrary, my head is placed quite squarely upon my shoulders. You claimed that Hellsing was a god example of Nazis being an interesting set of villains. That is a statement on the writing. The writing is poor. The Nazis in Hellsing are just as one-dimensional as they are anywhere else. The main villain's motivation is "Muahahaha evil is fun, let's be mean to everybody!"

Now, I will admit, you mentioned Hellsing and I immediately jumped to the conclusion that you are a raving moron, as EVERYONE I know that likes Hellsing is. You, on the other hand, Seem to be of acceptable intelligence and I apologize for lumping you into the group with which I normally associate Hellsing fans. As such, I lost track of my orignial point and went on about the terrible vampire cartoon in question.
We have a difference in taste, sir, and until such time as we can duel each other with nohz or chain or britvah, we shall simply have to disagree.

Grahav:
And I am really glad that WWII finished before nukeswere all the rage (this started on last days of war).

Little problem there, the V2s produced by Germany were the start of them, and Project Paperclip lead almost directly to The Manhattan Project.

Personally, the Nazi's are less evil when you compare them to say...
Stalin's Communist Regime which killed more people the Hitler would have if he'd killed every Jewish human in Europe..Had more work camps then Hitler, work camps where we still have no idea how the inhabitants die. One of the most spread out Intelligence agencies in the World, if you wanted someone dead they were dead.

As for them being half baked story elements, I could not agree more. Honestly it's getting annoying having to wade through all the Nazi's that eat babies and rape puppies, and kill old grandmas with babies tied to puppies.

This and everything discussing hitler being evil should be titled "Hitler, he's evil because he lost!" because really that's the truth. When compared to someone who did similarly horrible things (Alexander the Great) Hitler's not that bad, except he didnt succeed in what he set out to do, so history is written by the guys he was trying to kill, painting him as evil. Just think, Alexander the Great, wiped out whole cities women and children included simply because they didn't move away from a couple horrible people living there, he invaded and decimated the leadership of over 100 nations, he even oppressed his people, making his generals kiss his hand, a thing considered horribly humiliating to the Macedonians. Inspight of all that, he's Alexander the Great, why? Because, Alexander succeeded in what he set out to do, and his people got to write the history on it.

Hitler wasn't the worst person to have ever lived, he just landed on the wrong side of the win/loss equation.

Are you seriously trying to claim that all the European imperialists were trying to do was spread their idea of civilization to "less-advanced" places, rather than abuse people who were not able to fight back very well in order to take their resources? Sure, spreading civilization had a part in imperialism, but it was rather minor compared to the main goal of "take shit." In fact, one might think it was actually used more as a way to legitimize imperialism than to help other civilizations advance ("advance", of course, being seen in a 19th century European point of view).

Of course there are no video games where you play as a Native American killing those evil invading white European settlers in what is now the U.S.A. and Canada. However I do believe there are a few "western" video games where you can blow away Indians (Native Americans). History (and video games) is written by the victors.

I agree with absolutely every post on this thread, even the ones I disagree with.

Nazis are overdone, and they're an easy escape. We are in the middle of a postmodernist revolution in which the hero is dead, the antihero is rising, morality is gray, and evil looks good. There's no character less realistic than the one that does evil for evil's sake. Even being evil for money's or power's sake is a better choice.

But what about the Fascists? They were the perfect JRPG villains: extremelly evil, flamboyantly well-dressed and completely incompetent. I want more games with Fascists.

SteveBurger:
Meh, I like killing Nazis.
Lazy writing? Sure.
Fun? For me, at least.
Worth criticizing? Not really, but at least Yahtzee is entertaining.

What's the difference between killing Nazi soldiers and other "normal" german soldiers. Hell, the only difference I see in killing different soldiers is that they only have different uniforms and weaponry.

"The food at McDonalds is pretty bad"
I know, right! Why is everyone always so eager to eat there?
and on a related note, yeah theres always two sides to one story, but rather than trying to see someone elses side, it's much easier prejudge.

and Nazi have gotten rather Cliche

I like the thought behind the DLC there. But how is getting DLC any different to an adult going and buying something at a shop? Granted there's the whole credit card thing which makes it much harder for the kiddies, but if they include a free voucher for it then it's the same as the shop clerk not recognising if someone is a minor.

"the modern-day United States gets away with two, one, all three an irresponsible lack of support from the liberal media"

Hear those helicopter noises over your house man ? Thats your taxi cab to Guantanamo calling. Send us a postcard you commie bastard!!

SuperMse:
Are you seriously trying to claim that all the European imperialists were trying to do was spread their idea of civilization to "less-advanced" places, rather than abuse people who were not able to fight back very well in order to take their resources? Sure, spreading civilization had a part in imperialism, but it was rather minor compared to the main goal of "take shit." In fact, one might think it was actually used more as a way to legitimize imperialism than to help other civilizations advance ("advance", of course, being seen in a 19th century European point of view).

Spot on.... Back then some leaders were smart enough to look at the map and realise they had a limited amount of time to grab as much real estate as possible then try and hold onto it. The 18th and 19th century were just then first 20 mins of most RTS's, now we are in the turtle down phase, you know what comes next.

or nazi mummies!

wondering about a german soldier's family and if he really follows Hitler or just loves his country is all very nice but it doesn't change the fact that National Socialist Germany was intent on, and did, slaughter millions upon millions of people, most countries can afford the luxury to evolve into a better society (step by step like the US after the civil rights movement, its still far from perfect but it improved without millions dying) but Nazi Germany was like a house of termites and had to go. Besides modern Germany isn't half-bad, I'm Jewish and heading there this summer, plus my cousin is living in Heidelberg with her two twins fathered by a German man who is really an outstanding fellow.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Like, say, a patch for Cooking Mama, so that when you let the soup boil over, Mama rends her garments and cuts your arsehole out with a fish slice.

American McGee's Cooking Mama.

Kinda rolls of the tongue, no?

I would like to say that a WWII game where you kill Nazis, BUT also goes out of it's way to portray the Nazis as everyday people committing evil acts because of manipulation and circumstances, with emphasis on how such actions could happen in any country, yet you still had to kill them anyways for the sake of the greater good, would be pretty amazing.

I don't know why it came to mind but I am reminded of a story...

After the great escape, and if you don't know what that is then educate yourself, they hunted down the SS officers responsible to bring to justice. The more the team assigned to the rounding up of these men investigated the more they realised the whole thing was a 'grey topic' and the more they felt sorry for the SS officers involved. Well most of the people involved, there where more then enough psychopaths that loved the freedom to kill the SS badge gave them.

Yes, these are officers that killed POW in cold blood and the investigators where feeling bad for them. It was so clear to them that the SS officers where just as much of a victim to this unlawful and hideous order. They had no choice but to obey, it was a death sentence to not do so and would of been carried out on the spot. Too many only just wanted to get back to their families alive and where eaten alive inside by what they had to do just to make it so.

Oh and the icing of this cake. One such officer did NOT kill the POW he was told to kill. He didn't want to do it and 'fumbled' with his weapon, probably trying to find a way out of the order. Being cursed out by his superior the weapon was ripped from his hands and the POW killed with it. This story was confirmed, when they caught his superior who was very proud of the crimes he commited and willing to curse this act of 'cowardice,' lamenting that he should of killed both of them.

Still the Brits hanged the guy! Even though he had commited no murder and was disgusted at what he was ordered to do all the Brits cared about was the illusion of 'justice.' He was SS and that was good enough for them.

On the matter of the illusion of justice, the saying 'victor writes history' is fact. If you look back to what the tactics the allied used you can see they where no different to what the Germans where being prosecuted for. Deliberate targeting of civilians was ordered, and carried out, by many branches of the Allied military! For example failing to bomb German factories due to the limitation of the weapons of the era, it was blind luck if you hit one, the British and US forces decided they needed to blow up the innocent citizens to 'break their moral' and commited themselves to carpet bombing cities even if there was no direct tactical advantage to doing so.

It isn't the fact murder is wrong and should be punished, if that was the case many Allied leaders would of been standing beside the German ones on trial. No, murder is well and good... as long as you win the war.

The actual reason why all this Nazis are bad crap is always coming out is because its important to keep the Germans feeling guilty about their past so that bs amount of reperations can be leeched from the German Government.

The most recent is
Israel to seek another 1b euros Holocaust in reparations from Germany
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html

The reality is the Nazis kicked ass, even Edward VIII the King of England thought so, until he decided to Marry an American hooker and was abdicated.

ZeroDotZero:
Have you ever considered going into Game Development?

The thought has crossed my mind every now and then, yes.

I think that the Nazi`s still get used in games a lot because they have funny accents and don`t come with copywrite

The Nazis were demonised after the way, quite a few people agreed with them until they lost.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
...responsible human beings, as alien a concept as that might be to the Australian government.

I thought this concept was also alien to Yahtzee himself, but whatever. I guess he just spouts nihilistic bile because it makes him popular.

There are games where you can play as WW2 German combatants - off the top of my head, the Silent Hunter submarine sims, and Il-2 Sturmovik where you can fly most of the Luftwaffe's aircraft (and everyone else's too)

Yes, the Third Reich is overplayed. But there are alternatives. How about a game where Hitler is averted and the Nazi party never rises, and Germany rebuilds and defies the harsh Versailles treaty peacefully and without much blind ideology, and then Bulgaria invades Yugoslavia to recover the Southern Dobrudja region it lost at Versailles?

Or how about a WW2 game where you play the flag-waving Allied troops as normal, but you're fighting Hungarians or Italians or Romanians somewhere in eastern Europe?

A universal opt in system, my God that would actually work assuming we can get enough R18 backers to block a bill that would require DLC be rated.

It would be the video game version of 'this DVD contains the unrated version' (I wonder if Yahtzee gets those down there in Australia).

I can't believe that an attempt to appeal to a lusty denominator has resulted in something great the rest of the industry can use. Now they just have to use it.

Kollega:

Yahtzee Croshaw:
...responsible human beings, as alien a concept as that might be to the Australian government.

I thought this concept was also alien to Yahtzee himself, but whatever. I guess he just spouts nihilistic bile because it makes him popular.

The Australian government deserves all the bile it gets for their attempts at Chinese style internet censorship and for no R18 (admittedly that last one is mostly Atkinson but still).

Father Time:

Kollega:

Yahtzee Croshaw:
...responsible human beings, as alien a concept as that might be to the Australian government.

I thought this concept was also alien to Yahtzee himself, but whatever. I guess he just spouts nihilistic bile because it makes him popular.

The Australian government deserves all the bile it gets for their attempts at Chinese style internet censorship and for no R18 (admittedly that last one is mostly Atkinson but still).

You misinterpreted me.

I meant Yahtzees's constant "OMG PEOPLE ARE SHIT I HATE THEM" projectile vomiting.

Well, Yahtzee bashing aside, the article makes a fair point that many videogames set in the Second World War go the easy route, setting Nazis up as the villains and just having done with it.

But that aside, the Second World War is also one of the most powerful storytelling backdrops in history, and Nazism is a fundamental part of it. The trick with Nazis, if you ask me, is unlike - as Yahtzee put it - having to actually portray them as bad guys, you have to deploy them very carefully as part of a larger setting.

I think a very compelling game set during the war would be one that focusses on something entirely other than the Nazis, and merely lets their sheer, overwhelming influence, power and control during that period of history speak for itself. There was very little at that time 'could be done without the Nazis being involved in some way after all. Then they'd go from a cheap badguy to another part of the flavour.

I guess an example might be Indiana Jones.. at least sort of. In those films, it was less a case of 'Nazis are badguys because Nazis are evil' and more a case of 'Nazis are badguys because during the period when pulp-style archaeological adventuring was even vaguely possible, they were all over the freaking planet and interfering with everyone and everything'. Or of course, there's 'Allo 'Allo, where the Nazis were everywhere, but the story never shot one of them, ever - it was a simple fact that, comedy though the series may be, should the character ever go one step too far on their oppressors, they'd all be dead, end of story, and that was a necessary part of the setting and the series' success.

What kills me about Nazi's...
Back when "Toy Story" yes toy story was made on ps1. The Mexican population of America had a fit when you had to defeat a toy "Bandito" with sumbrao and all with nerf darts. And they called it "Virtual Genocide"

Yet we allow generation after generation pretty much the AOK to kill a german because of Nazis 60 years ago.

You know that in it's own right disturbs me the most. The ultimate murdered enemy, and it's ok because a long long time ago they did bad things to people. So we need to keep a steady history of killing them back...

This was an excellent little essay on Nazis.

Especially liked "I'd say they were pretty flat characters, if they hadn't actually been real."

Yep. Games need depth, games need less Nazis. I always liked Gal Civ 2 for providing that. Questioning of actions and motives along with the course of galactic conquest. Seeing two cultures bleed into one-another's air space and then inevitably into conflict. Trying to secure peace and stability without killing billions. Asking those questions of am I doing the right thing by spreading the culture of my peadophile federation to multiple star systems, and causing civil war and hostility. Big questions.

Kollega:

Father Time:

Kollega:

Yahtzee Croshaw:
...responsible human beings, as alien a concept as that might be to the Australian government.

I thought this concept was also alien to Yahtzee himself, but whatever. I guess he just spouts nihilistic bile because it makes him popular.

The Australian government deserves all the bile it gets for their attempts at Chinese style internet censorship and for no R18 (admittedly that last one is mostly Atkinson but still).

You misinterpreted me.

I meant Yahtzees's constant "OMG PEOPLE ARE SHIT I HATE THEM" projectile vomiting.

Well that quote you are using isn't an example of that. That quote is basically saying 'the Australian government thinks we're all irresponsible idiots who will go big rampages at the slightest inclination.

Am i the only one who thinks it is weird to label the entire German Army as Nazis"?
No one goes around labeling the Americans by thier current Government group.

(if something similiar has been already said, my bad.)

Censors can't complain about corrupting the children because installing the adult content becomes a choice made by responsible human beings, as alien a concept as that might be to the Australian government.

Instead of choosing it install "adult" DLC into a game. How about people choose to not buy the 18 rated game for their underage childern.

instead of blaming things on the game why not jail the smacktard parents who bought the ineproprit game for their spawn?

Or is this just wishful thinking on my part?

Nunny:
Am i the only one who thinks it is weird to label the entire German Army as Nazis"?
No one goes around labeling the Americans by thier current Government group.

(if something similiar has been already said, my bad.)

I actually read the entire thread to make sure it didn't, and you beat me to it. One thing people forget is Nazi was a political party. It's like calling all American soldiers democrats. Not every German soldier was a member of the nazi party, and for all you people who didn't know, Charles Lindberg, yes the great American hero famous for being the first man to fly across the Atlantic, praised Hitler for his manufacturing techniques and economic policies.

rs2000:
If anyone has ever watched the Mitchell & Webb show then you may find this funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsNLbK8_rBY

This is exactly what I thought when I read this.. a small amount of plagourism in this editorial perhaps?

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