On Nazis

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6
 

Angerwing:
I think Nazis are the go-to-guys for baddies, because it's socially acceptable to murder them by the bucketload.

Socially acceptable murder on the bucketload level was precisely the line of thinking of the nazi sympathizers back in the day.

I don't know what that entails, but it was worth the comment.

GrinningManiac:
I'm sick and tired of all media assuming that, by the time of Normandy, every single German soldier was a diehard, xenophobic sociopath

Most of them, towards the end, were disillusioned veterans, slightly unhinged antisematists, poor men down on their luck, or, the most COMMON background of all, a conscripted farmboy.

That's very true. I remember in the Band of Brothers special special in which there were interveiews with the actual vets from Easy Company, they said time and time again that most german soldiers were just that, soldiers.

Not like the SS and Gestapo, monsters who would kill their own countrymen under orders from the third reich.

The Random One:
I agree with absolutely every post on this thread, even the ones I disagree with.

That's a brain twister right there.

SimGrave:
The Nazis are to shooters what the medieval era is to RPGs. What can we do about it?

Stop giving so much money to them would be a good start.

Ericb:

Angerwing:
I think Nazis are the go-to-guys for baddies, because it's socially acceptable to murder them by the bucketload.

Socially acceptable murder on the bucketload level was precisely the line of thinking of the nazi sympathizers back in the day.

I didn't think about it like that, but you know that's not what I meant. They're like zombies in this scenario.

Angerwing:

Ericb:

Angerwing:
I think Nazis are the go-to-guys for baddies, because it's socially acceptable to murder them by the bucketload.

Socially acceptable murder on the bucketload level was precisely the line of thinking of the nazi sympathizers back in the day.

I didn't think about it like that, but you know that's not what I meant. They're like zombies in this scenario.

Of course, I wasn't implying anything in that sense.

But yeah, the status they share with zombies as the guys to look for generic cathartic killing really throws away good character and context exploration in regards to gameplay narrative.

Come to think of it, nazis in games actualy share something of a creativity status with wooden crates in FPSs.

You know why Der Untergang was a good film? Because it accepted that the Nazis were humans. I really think that doing that would quite quickly make Nazis interesting again. There's few things more fascinating than how widespread movements can convince people do to just about anything, and all we get is "LOL EVIL LOOK HOW HE LIKES TORTURE". It would take twenty seconds to have a decent story that still managed to bring up Hitler and his gang.

On the other hand, that's probably not what they're going for; they're trying to get a way for you to shoot human beings in a game with the obvious feeling that you're doing the right thing and to remove guilt to make a simpler (and, though I personally disagree with this conclusion, more fun) game, and it's a piece of piss to do that once he's got a swastika around his arm.

Yahtzee: ... and the modern-day United States gets away with two, one, all three an irresponsible lack of support from the liberal media.

haha I see what you did there. 'cept that's OUR joke. And it's an OLD fucking joke.

If you want to make a big drawn-out point of unoriginal animosity in the industry, why don't you try to make it a paragraph or so without digging on America?

SnootyEnglishman:
I think anyone who has ever paid attention in history class knows about the Nazi's and their actions it's not old news. Putting them in every WW2 style game does get a little boring after defeating them oh say 10 times. Mix it up a little eh?

Yes. Nazi...ZOMBIES! Two cultural cliche mixed together.

http://www.mcvideogame.com/ if you want a video on McDonalds.

On that last note, what about people who don't have online access?

Sometimes I think the worst thing that happened to America in the 20th century was winning WWII.

Now before you instinctively reach for the reply button, load your flame thrower, and start the Godwin's law countdown (which would strain the definition of irony with this post); hear me out.

We have been told by our leaders, our generals and warmongers for the last 2,000 years that war was necessary because the enemy was evil. And for 2,000 years we shook our heads, sighed, picked up out swords and got ready for a fight. We didn't do it because we really though they were evil, we did it because our leaders wanted a war, and if they didn't get their war they were gonna take it out on us.

No competent history teacher would call the French government "evil" any more than he would the peasants who propagated unspeakable atrocities "evil". They were just two groups of thugs who decided to throw down.

And then we had a war in which the Nazis were ACTUALLY guilty of truly evil things.

Now we see every conflict as another World War, and our leaders have managed to convince us that there really are evil leaders. That another Hitler could be lurking in the shadows of a nefarious government. And the therm Holocaust has its meaning ground into dust with overuse.

And we believe them, because it's already happened.

The DLC opt in idea sounds like a good one to me.

the WWII era german soldiers weren't all ardent Nazis the movie Das boot was a prime example of this. the Government of Nazi Germany was the Evil part

This is so wrong... if you believe in God and all that Hell 2.0 was actually developed for Communists and not the Nazis.

For all you far away from were the communist plague hit :

http://www.jurnaltv.ro/video/The_Soviet_Story_Povestea_sovietelor_incredibil

PS:It`s a documentary in English don`t worry.

This reminds me off a story:
A jewish mother and her son were in a bad situation (I don't remeber the details so I'll improvise) and a Nazi soldier pointed his gun at them, then a Nazi officer came and had him lower his gun
now this is something i'll never forget, his reason "One day history will judge us"
the mother and son suvived the war and told the story and I read it in a book somewhere.

effilctar:
I personally believe that Nazis believed that what they did would earn them the title of "hero" or "freedom fighter" in their respective culture, much like a religious extremist may believe when they attempt some manner of suicide mission.

no, what you said is utter bullshit, google it

there's no "believing", WW2 is documented well enough to justify statements with proofs

DTWolfwood:
On the other hand, the german ppl did put Hitler in power so accountability is still there.

it's tad more complicated than that, hitler got to power by supporting lower class, during the big economical problems it got him votes, then it took political play, like convincing hindenburg to make him the cancellor, he had much power, then it took murdering of the SA opposition to take full control, despite this i agree on accountability, it's a sociological problem tho, shouldn't be discussed on the basis of singular minds

http://www.streetnewsservice.org/uploads/images/SNS%20Pictures/RealChange_A%20dogged%20voice_cartoon%202.jpg

Bill Mauldin's cartoon of a U.S. soldier taking German prisoners toward the end of the war.... notice how they look the same...

Hitler was put in power b/c the German people were "dying" as it were they had no where else 2 turn... he promised a better life.... in the start he did and made great advances in science and technology.... but once he was done, the German people saw him as a great man... leading 2 the wrongs the wld later b committed...

Ph0t0n1c Ph34r:

Corporal Yakob:

Sylias:
The thing I find the most interesting is that somehow almost no one person on earth ever seems to consider that Nazi soldiers were just that... soldiers. Doing what they where told to do, either believing it to be right or not thinking at all.
It's like blaming an US Soldier, stationed in Iraq, for all the bad things the Bush administration has done to civil rights or economy or whatever...
These people had nothing to do with all the stuff the higher ups decided. Hell, I'm convinced that not even all the higher ups had their minds set on eradicating all those other, lesser races. They probably had the same thing in mind that every form of military has in mind to this day. Win...
But 70 years past all that, the whole world has pretty much accepted that every single soldier who has ever fought for the Germans between 1939 and 1945 ate babies for breakfast and praised Satan in between daily sessions of genocide.

Ever played any first person shooter that had Nazis in it and thought to yourself : "I wonder if this guy has a family. Maybe he's doing this to feed his kids. Maybe it's his last day because tomorrow he'll have enough of this mindless fighting and BOOOOM there goes his head..."

I couldn't agree more. "And maybe this guy is doing this for the exact same reason I'm doing mine: patriotism and belief in a cause."

Screw shooting Russian civilians in airports, if games want to be more mature and intelligent then just "Call of America: Kill America's enemies) we should have a WW2 game set from the German point of view.

Funny thing is, the last couple of levels is killing just American soldiers. But I think that is a great idea. It would be interesting to see the war from the German point of view.

Ah but the Shadow Company are a bunch of diabolical bastards led by a traitorous scumbag so it doesn't count.

Requi3m:

Corporal Yakob:

Rodger:
Nazis? Yeah, by our math, all nazis are evil. Problem is, you're rarely actually killing nazis in video games, or on the WWII battlefield. You're killing the soldiers out fighting for their country, which happens to be controlled by nazis. On a related note, if I've got my history right here, then if you happened to ask one of said soldiers what their opinion of the Allies were, the term 'baby boiling bastards' would have likely come up. Pretty sure that's what the German propaganda going around at the time was. Or maybe that was North American propaganda...

The worst nazi soldiers were likely the ones raised from children to fight for Hitler. They had a specific name but I can't remember what it was. They were his elite troops though and pretty sure they're the ones that ran the concentration camps and what not.

You're thinking of the SS (Shutzstaffel/protection force), they were the ones who ran the concentration camps and committed the worst atrocities. Not to be mistaken with the Waffen SS (Weapon protection/ force) which were Germany's military elite indoctrinated with SS views.

Actually, I think he's talking about the Hitlerjugend. They were all young children being prepared to be the next generation of Nazi Party members. Hook 'm while they're young.

As for the German army, I agree with the people defending the common German soldier. They were mostly scared something would happen to them or their families, so they did what they were trained to do. The propaganda put out by Goebbels and his crew helped keep people in the dark. Goebbels is seen as one of the most intelligent members of the Nazi Party. And don't forget a lot of Germans were still pretty pissed about how they were exploited to ruin by other European countries after WW1. Hitler was one of them.

Also, the German army didn't consist of only Germans, not by a long shot. They drafted a lot of soldiers from the countries they conquered. My grandfather was one of them. He was 18 when Germany invaded Poland and got put in the army by force. When the Allies invaded France he was there with a lot of soldiers forced to serve. They shot their commanders and defected to the Allies. He came back in a tank! True story :).

Ah well the Hitlerjugend were raised to join the SS so same thing :D

Exactly. Hell even a lot of people in Britain felt that the Treaty of Versallies had been way too harsh (which it had) on Germany and were prepared to be more sympathetic when they started rebuilding their empire.

Yes Ostbattleions, units made of conscripts from occupied countries, which shows you how desperate OKW had become, relying on so called "subhumans" to fight for the people who had subjagted them. CAN'T SPELL (sobs)

Finally, cool!

GrinningManiac:

Corporal Yakob:

GrinningManiac:
I'm sick and tired of all media assuming that, by the time of Normandy, every single German soldier was a diehard, xenophobic sociopath

Most of them, towards the end, were disillusioned veterans, slightly unhinged antisematists, poor men down on their luck, or, the most COMMON background of all, a conscripted farmboy.

To say that their lack of general bloodlust can be absolved (in villany terms) by the fact they were defending a very loudly antisemite nation proves jack. hardly anyone knew about the death camps, people were too scared to disagree with the government, most of Europe at the time was antisemite anyway, and had been since, oh, ZERO ANNO DOMINI

I would give ANYTHING for a game on the German side. Starts as a farmboy, conscripted against his family's will right after D-Day, and taken to the frontlines of the German retreat, before he is either killed in Berlin in an emotional and terrifying climax, or he runs away (much like the current Pope) and returns to his family

I completely agree.
Or perhaps it could be volunteer for the Wehrmact in the heady early days, Blitzkrieg through Poland and France before spending the next 4 years of living hell on the Eastern Front before being killed in Berlin.

THAT WOULD BE EPIC

Even better if there was a contreversial scene where, in first person, you partake in the swearing of alligence to Der Fuher after Nacht der Langer Messer (sp?)

Sadly it will probably never happen.
Definitely!

ZeroDotZero:
Yes, Hitler made those moustaches unpopular, but managed to get them into the media.

Hey!
You're taking away Charlie Chaplin's rightful seat on the throne of that 'stache. He got it into the media and popularised it. Then Hitler had to go and copy him and ruin it for everybdy.

Dudemeister:

ZeroDotZero:
Yes, Hitler made those moustaches unpopular, but managed to get them into the media.

Hey!
You're taking away Charlie Chaplin's rightful seat on the throne of that 'stache. He got it into the media and popularised it. Then Hitler had to go and copy him and ruin it for everybdy.

Oh yeah, Charlie made it popular for sure, but Hitler then unpopularized them later.

You know, I really agree with all the points Yahtzee brings up here except one: Killzone 2. I don't know if Yahtzee's played it or not, but I'm guessing he hasn't. The story does go a fair amount more in-depth than he seems to be giving it credit for. While it's far from being an amazing grade A story, I think that they purposefully made the assault questionable. And I'd imagine Yahtzee of all people could get past a poor storyline and realize the game was really well done... meh, maybe I'm just being a bit too much of a fan, it's true it's not that great, but I think he's really underrating it.

As for the Nazi's, indeed, I find it's really thing when you reach for the folks in history who would shoot people in the crotch rather than make your own folks who shoot people in the crotch. There have been a few instances where it turned out at least decent, but yeh. Zombies can fill the role too, and you can choose far more landscapes to put them in. No big surprise then that CoD: World at War had Nazi Zombies.
You know what I'd like to see one of these days? A WWI game or a WWII game that takes place in a country other than Germany, France, Britain, or Russia. Bonus points if it's not Poland either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there has ever been a game with that storyline.

What about Commie-Nazis?
Surely they are the penultimate evil!
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=E2CDL0P1

Nazis and zombies-you can do pretty much what you like to them and the Daily Mail won't throw a wobbly. Put Nazi zombies and your definatly backing a winner...

the obvious solution to the problem of having an interesting bad guy, while simultaneosly solving the problem of having a good guy that isnt a prissy annoying idiot, is simply to have the player take the place of the bad guy.

it also explains all the meaningless violence to any npc you come across. especially in sandbox style games. plus being the bad guy is fun.

Yeah. Even in supernatural games you can stick Nazis in. They were not only and Evil army of Evilness. They were also Evil wielders of scientific Black magic. But, i got to admit that it never gets old of killing a Nazi and cursing them out without feeling any whince of regret. Lol

Overall, I'm going to agree with the general consensus, and state that the problem with "Nazis" in popular media is not being able to tell the difference between actual, genocide-worshipping Nazis (Hitler and his fellow members, the SS, some of the crazier soldiers) and people who didn't know about the genocide part, were too scared to defy the Nazi regime, and/or got screwed over by the Nazis for rubbing them the wrong way (most of the proper generals in the German army got screwed over when Hitler decided he could do a better job leading than them, which only served to unravel Germany even further at the end of WWII).

The only game that I think depicted the attitude of the German forces with some accuracy was the Russian campaign in Call of Duty: World at War - the Germans and Russians were equally brutal during their offensives, as both Hitler and Stalin fed propaganda that the other side was full of inhuman monsters (and on top of that, weren't really much different except for Stalin ultimately being more competent than Hitler), and it actually showed the Germans having human emotions (like fear, trying to surrender, etc.) when hounded by the Soviets in the big "push to Berlin" series of missions. Hell, the final level, where the Red Army storms the Reichstag, is the ONLY Call of Duty level dedicated to fighting the Waffen-SS, who are probably the only military units in Germany that have the excuse of acting like the stereotypical Nazis people associate with WWII Germany as a whole, rather than believe some Germans were forced to fight against their will, or were fighting for the pride of their country more than their Fuhrer's nutty ideas of Social Darwinism.

Also, I think the idea of playing the German group trying to assassinate Hitler (i.e. Operation Valkyrie) would be a perfect video game plot: The first act would be to kill or arrest Hitler and the rest of the Nazi Party (Himmler, Goebbels, Goering, etc.), then the second act is to force the Anglo-American offensive of Western Europe to a treaty, then the final act is to take on the tide of the Soviet Union. It would allow a perspective of how a lot of Germans weren't actually into the whole "Nazi-ism" fad as Hitler and his cronies, and show a morally-gray view of the war from the traditionally heroic Anglo-Americans (the Brits in particular doing a lot to accidentally spark Nazism with ruining WWI Germany's economy) and to splash some reality onto the increasingly romanticized WWII-era Soviet Union (as Stalin was without a doubt the most brutal dictator of the USSR's entire history, and was as morally heinous as Hitler - he's only not as reviled for being more pragmatic, and ultimately more successful)

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here