235: Riot Grrrls Wanted

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Hope Chest:

My point is that what you were talking about was a game where a girl uses stuff identified with girls like "social skills, networking and street-smarts" instead of the "violence" associated with men. That...that's not how riot grrl came across to me. Riot grrl came across as 'we can sing rock & roll words and play loud electric guitars--we don't have to be a singer-songwriter who plays the piano' so in game terms, why wouldn't a riot grrl game have her wielding a BFG?

Because it's such a typically male way to have power and to solve problems. It's also an overused cliche fantasy, and a way for the mainstream media to choreograph Riot Grrl values into the system without actually changing the core values of that system. It's tokenistic. Kathleen Hanna sums up the prevailing attitude:

Bikini Kill - Tony Randall:

Robotic nation
False history
Spit out another picture of a girl with a gun
To bore me

Riot Grrl was indeed very much a social movement. It wasn't a movement that endorsed violence (The Escapist gets it horribly wrong and sadly plays right into this stereotype with the picture of the girl treading on the guy's head) and slogans used about "fighting" are more about fighting the patriachal system politically and self-defence from rapists. The whole "tough" thing as a general value was often seen as "assimilatory", because the Riot Girl movement saw "toughness" and the idea of being the aloof hard-ass bitch as a male cultural value, and something to be challenged rather than emulated:

image

Hope Chest:

Bonsaik:
But the "tough guy" female characters I see in most games these days, they're not really genuinely female at all. They're just what some nerdy game designers imagine females to be, so they tend to fall into the stereotypes that those sort of people hold dear.

Well there you go--maybe the problem isn't the "tough guy" female characters, it's that they're "what some nerdy game designers imagine females to be." Maybe we could have a really great "tough guy" female character if we had better designers on the job.

Tough women do of course exist in real life, but they never get it right in the computer games. Alyx in Half Life 2 is as close as anyone has ever gotten to doing it right, and even that's a fairly shallow characterisation. Maybe one day. Give it 20 years or so.

Maybe its just me, but the fact that 40% of gamers are girls, and they haven't been making many titles aimed exclusively at the female market indicates that these girls like the games made for men.

Riot Grrrls can bugger off. The industry doesn't need some assinine "revolution" it needs people of all creeds to make the games they want to make if they have the passion for it. Anything else will come off preachy and conceited. Also 40% of gamers are girls yet cooking mama is aimed at girls and sells wonderfully. Therefore girls enjoy games that may not enforce any positive cultural message or any of that bullshit.

If girls want to get into the highflying world of coding, compiling and error checking more power to them. But in two decades of vidja games the vast majority of devs are male not because doors are closed, but because girls just don't wanna.

Maybe next we can get some affirmative action forcing women through the door so they can influence this male dominated profession, won't that be good for the industry.

squid5580:

Hulyen:
I have to say that it IS depressing to see any mention of female gamers tends to have one of two reactions: "Female gamers are all attention whores" or "Female gamers are mostly women who play casual games or their husband's games once in a while" with very little middle ground.

What other reaction are we allowed at this point? Women don't want our "manly" games (well according to the media anyways) with our big manly chest beating characters. And of course the female characters are all triple D wearing a piece of string so no woman wants to see that. So until they create special games catering specifically to women these are the types of reactions we are allowed. Gaming isn't one size fits all gender, race or religious views afterall. And never will be while these stereotypes exist. And no matter what a game has to offer women it really doesn't matter since this is an unwinnable battle. Even if someone created the perfect "female" game people will still point at X-Blades or Ivy's outfit to prove that games are sexist.

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

Not necessarily, Mr. Gompers. First of all, the 40% number I believe comes from a survey of simply gamers. Not how much, not what games, just if people played games.

This means that "casual" games like Bejeweled, The Sims, or Wii Sports are treated as equivalent to Halo, Madden, or Need for Speed. The gaming press and many hardcore gamers (who are most likely to read or comment on game articles on the internets) tend to treat the latter far more seriously than they treat the former.

The bulk of game-related attention goes to little boy-based games - cars, guns, and sports. It doesn't have much to do with the players - The Sims is the best-selling PC game of all time.

At its best, a riot grrl-style movement in the game industry or amongst a few game studios would demand attention for other games, and subvert the little boy orientation of game press and so-called "hardcore" gamers.

The hell are you talking about? So you basically got paid this week for making an article about how a game no one would care about should be made.

BonsaiK:

Hope Chest:

My point is that what you were talking about was a game where a girl uses stuff identified with girls like "social skills, networking and street-smarts" instead of the "violence" associated with men. That...that's not how riot grrl came across to me. Riot grrl came across as 'we can sing rock & roll words and play loud electric guitars--we don't have to be a singer-songwriter who plays the piano' so in game terms, why wouldn't a riot grrl game have her wielding a BFG?

Because it's such a typically male way to have power and to solve problems. It's also an overused cliche fantasy,

So are loud guitars in rock music, but Riot Grrl didn't turn away from them: it embraced them.

and a way for the mainstream media to choreograph Riot Grrl values into the system without actually changing the core values of that system. It's tokenistic. Kathleen Hanna sums up the prevailing attitude:

Bikini Kill - Tony Randall:

Robotic nation
False history
Spit out another picture of a girl with a gun
To bore me

Well then give her an ax like in Brutal Legend! If the problem is guns, then the problem is guns: that doesn't mean the problem is *all* violence just because guns are for violence.

Riot Grrl was indeed very much a social movement. It wasn't a movement that endorsed violence (The Escapist gets it horribly wrong and sadly plays right into this stereotype with the picture of the girl treading on the guy's head) and slogans used about "fighting" are more about fighting the patriachal system politically and self-defence from rapists. The whole "tough" thing as a general value was often seen as "assimilatory", because the Riot Girl movement saw "toughness" and the idea of being the aloof hard-ass bitch as a male cultural value, and something to be challenged rather than emulated:

*image snip*

Why not a game where the fighting is about self-defence? Why not a soft-spoken type like John-117 from Halo? There's a difference between being tough and being bad ass.

Oh, and I do agree: the image chosen could have been a lot more accurate.

Oh (again), that game about surviving a warzone? Crazily enough, it might be brought to you buy this guy:

image
Next up was Bleszinski, whose "Empathy" concept was built around the idea that people could learn to better understand war by putting themselves in the position of the victims of military conflict.

Players would take on the role of the father of a family of five and become responsible for everyone's well-being as war drums sound and a full-blown battle is joined.

To win, players must keep their families alive until war ends. If the family dies, then the players lose.

Bleszinksi said his fantasy was that the game would help world leaders avoid war through better understanding of the consequences of their political actions.

"There should be a U.N. resolution passed," he said, "that those making the call to war must log time in this program."
http://news.cnet.com/Game-designers-aim-for-Nobel-Peace-Prize---page-2/2100-1043_3-6052353-2.html

Great. Another femminist "we're better than men, because we're women" campaign. The reason we don't make a game about a woman's life, or a man's life for that instance, is because that it would be so fucking boring, Desert Bus would look like the pinnacle of gaming achievement.

Heres the thing you ladies need to get into your head: No one gives a shit if you're under represented, you know why? Because you're not! You just aren't out there doing the stuff you want to be represented in! You're too busy making groups and pissing on about it!

HappyDD:

The Lizard of Odd:
I find it amusing how every 'girl power in gaming' article is always slathered in pink. Somehow seems contradictory.

I know what you're saying, but I think the view is that the articles are "taking back pink" from the girly girls. I guess pink is so girly that associating it with a picture of a woman face stomping some man is the juxtaposition they are using to "shock the system." See: Clerks 2, when Randall takes back a phrase of his own...

Black Cop: "PORCH MONKEY?!"
Randall: "Its cool, I'm takin' it back!"

squid5580:

What other reaction are we allowed at this point? Women don't want our "manly" games (well according to the media anyways) with our big manly chest beating characters. And of course the female characters are all triple D wearing a piece of string so no woman wants to see that. So until they create special games catering specifically to women these are the types of reactions we are allowed. Gaming isn't one size fits all gender, race or religious views afterall. And never will be while these stereotypes exist. And no matter what a game has to offer women it really doesn't matter since this is an unwinnable battle. Even if someone created the perfect "female" game people will still point at X-Blades or Ivy's outfit to prove that games are sexist.

I don't think this is the right way to conceptualize games. Producers shouldn't sit down and design games 'targeting' either males or females; they should just make a good game. Tell a story! Or just let us do cool stuff! You say "gaming isn't one size fits all gender, race or religious views;" I think that could be said of individual games, but video games as a medium are capable of a lot more than the massive churn of "manly chest-beating characters" and "triple D-wearing" female characters.

I suppose I'm mostly taking issue with your assertion that "women don't want our 'manly' games." I'm a girl, and while I avoid games like GTA and Gears of War, I love games like Fire Emblem, Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy, Zelda. I don't think these games were designed to cater to a target audience; I would these games art, designed for the sake of making a really beautiful balance of narrative and gameplay.

So I don't think it's fair to call all video games "manly" like they're all testosterone-charged male-oriented blood orgies. And I also don't think it's fair to assert that "women don't like video games."

Whistler777:
Alright, it's offical: The Escapist is whoring itself out for hits. There's no other explanation for why you'd publish three or four self-righteous articles about girl gamers within 24 hours. I'd lost much respect for your News section when Michael Thomsen's article was published, but now I'm wondering if it's even worth the time to come back here anymore.

Wait a second here. How is publishing three articles that creates (for a while at least, and by some people only) intelligent debates and discussions whoring out. They did not publish three articles that were filled with images of boobs. Other websites (you know who you are) will do this routinely to get more hits but if one website has stayed away from this for and has always provided me with good, thoughtful articles, it was the Escapist.

If you are so afraid of having adult discussions then please go to those other websites.

ShadowKirby:

Whistler777:
Alright, it's offical: The Escapist is whoring itself out for hits. There's no other explanation for why you'd publish three or four self-righteous articles about girl gamers within 24 hours. I'd lost much respect for your News section when Michael Thomsen's article was published, but now I'm wondering if it's even worth the time to come back here anymore.

Wait a second here. How is publishing three articles that creates (for a while at least, and by some people only) intelligent debates and discussions whoring out. They did not publish three articles that were filled with images of boobs. Other websites (you know who you are) will do this routinely to get more hits but if one website has stayed away from this for and has always provided me with good, thoughtful articles, it was the Escapist.

If you are so afraid of having adult discussions then please go to those other websites.

I'm not so sure that lots of children insulting me and telling me I'm afraid of women is an adult discussion. You obviously don't know who you're talking to, or you wouldn't have insinuated such things.

Whistler777:

ShadowKirby:

Whistler777:
Alright, it's offical: The Escapist is whoring itself out for hits. There's no other explanation for why you'd publish three or four self-righteous articles about girl gamers within 24 hours. I'd lost much respect for your News section when Michael Thomsen's article was published, but now I'm wondering if it's even worth the time to come back here anymore.

Wait a second here. How is publishing three articles that creates (for a while at least, and by some people only) intelligent debates and discussions whoring out. They did not publish three articles that were filled with images of boobs. Other websites (you know who you are) will do this routinely to get more hits but if one website has stayed away from this for and has always provided me with good, thoughtful articles, it was the Escapist.

If you are so afraid of having adult discussions then please go to those other websites.

I'm not so sure that lots of children insulting me and telling me I'm afraid of women is an adult discussion. You obviously don't know who you're talking to, or you wouldn't have insinuated such things.

You do realize this isn't anything new for The Escapist:

image

image

Whistler777:

I'm not so sure that lots of children insulting me and telling me I'm afraid of women is an adult discussion. You obviously don't know who you're talking to, or you wouldn't have insinuated such things.

Oh! I don't know who you are! And based on your "contributions" to this discussion, I'm happy with that!

Girl gamers are a minority, "real" girl gamers (the kind that enjoy zombie guts on their chainsaw) are a small part of this minority. Why ? Because most girls don`t play what we call video games, most girls that consume this form of media play Dinner Dash and Farm Mania and after half an hour in Plants vs Zombies their brains start hurting. This is not a misogynistic comment only the truth. Girls gaming are like men knitting, it is fun for a very small number of individuals.

So why do we need games created by women that will naturally appeal to women and have a possible chance to fail with the male audience that is king ? Or do people wanna see Dinner Dash clones made with "heart"?

This hole discussion here seems bullshit to me. The hole gaming "thing" was designed by men with men in mind and it works. If girls like the concepts from this scene they can join the fun, no problem, but asking them to actually produce sounds to me like a person contemplating the coolness and utility of having another hand growing out of their ass.

[quote="Kojiro ftt" post="6.165845.4384436"] If you have the ability and the passion, other professionals will take notice and be happy to work with you.[/quote>

Thanks for replying Kojiro. I'm sorry but I'm going to take this quote with a pinch of salt, because this sounds like a feelgood film tagline, and not realism.

I left out the details of my trials and tryings in my post. I'd say the last 10 years that I've been trying to network, learn and show enthusiasm. I've been studying and making dozens of RP (live-meshed-with-computers) games for free (for local Finns) while working for ten years. And I feel like I have only backpedalled in this entire time. My "passion" has only brought me a burnout and a very empty feeling.

Since the global finance party started, I've been looking critically at what I want to be doing, and I think Michael Samyn sums the problem of games industry too well in his blog post yesterday: http://tale-of-tales.com/blog/2010/01/06/my-new-years-resolutions/ I see myself as a player from the same vantage point as ToT and I think they have just the angle that game design generally needs: Designing games for people, not target audiences or target genders.

-

britterly:
[quote="Kojiro ftt" post="6.165845.4384436"] If you have the ability and the passion, other professionals will take notice and be happy to work with you.[/quote>

Thanks for replying Kojiro. I'm sorry but I'm going to take this quote with a pinch of salt, because this sounds like a feelgood film tagline, and not realism.

I left out the details of my trials and tryings in my post. I'd say the last 10 years that I've been trying to network, learn and show enthusiasm. I've been studying and making dozens of RP (live-meshed-with-computers) games for free (for local Finns) while working for ten years. And I feel like I have only backpedalled in this entire time. My "passion" has only brought me a burnout and a very empty feeling.

Please don't think that this is all because of your gender.

Shit happens, regardless, and I'm sure that this has happened to anyone in the industry with the right amount of luck (or unluck, I suppose).

Erin Hoffman:
Social conservatives, meanwhile, disdained both game's and rock music's rising popularity, even going so far as to legislate against them in various parts of the world.

Just want to point out real quick that most of the politicians going against vidija games are Democrats, the foe of the Social Conservative.

Each side is always trying to pin the blame on the other...

We know that there are women playing games. We need more women making games, and we need them to create from their hearts, not from what they're told by publishers or anyone else. We need a girl riot, and we need it now.

What gets me is there seems to be some sense that it is the industry that is making bald claims about what women can and cannot do. While this may be true in some cases (haven't lived long enough to witness that aspect of the business world), the root of the problem is ignored. How are men and women raised?

From the day my niece was born my parents and relatives were buying her things colored in pink, featuring princesses that need to be saved and kitchen tea-sets. Everyone finds it adorable and appropriate because she is "a girly-girl". I've always felt there was a tomboy potential to her, and there still is (age 4, seriously has no qualms picking her nose and eating the discovered contents while people are watching). However, it's hard to uncover. I've managed to get her to enjoy the 1987 Transformers film, the old live action Ninja Turtles flicks and so on. But she only uses the Ninja Turtles toy as the monster that the prince must save the princess from.

No matter how the media portrays women or how big corporate executives feel of them, they will only react based on how society has taught them, be it from childhood or what they observed. I've observed most women finding it cute that my niece wants to be a Princess, a figure that is pampered and born into wealth instead of earning it. They also find it perfectly acceptable for her to have a kitchen play set. What is considered strange is for me to try and get her into Mega Man and Legend of Zelda, where she plays the hero willing to sacrifice what he can of himself for the greater good.

So is it really any wonder why males have heroic power fantasies? Or why males tend to dominate new industries striving for the top while women, seemingly oppressed, also tend to choose roles that are artistic yet not ambitious, or even completely domestic ones? (I feel it may be important to note, to avoid looking like a mysogynist or whatnot, that I'd actually love to be a stay-at-home Dad myself, so I'm all for empowered women with ambition)

If the games industry is against the inclusion of females, I think it's only part of a greater problem in society as a whole. I say women are welcome to become game designers, programmers, whatever they want, but there has to be a large enough population interested in that direction. As it is, going to a Tech school myself flooded with nerds and geeks, women insist on other things. Even if they are geeks and nerds themselves they rarely want to be something like a game designer.

Whistler777:

ShadowKirby:

Whistler777:
Alright, it's offical: The Escapist is whoring itself out for hits. There's no other explanation for why you'd publish three or four self-righteous articles about girl gamers within 24 hours. I'd lost much respect for your News section when Michael Thomsen's article was published, but now I'm wondering if it's even worth the time to come back here anymore.

Wait a second here. How is publishing three articles that creates (for a while at least, and by some people only) intelligent debates and discussions whoring out. They did not publish three articles that were filled with images of boobs. Other websites (you know who you are) will do this routinely to get more hits but if one website has stayed away from this for and has always provided me with good, thoughtful articles, it was the Escapist.

If you are so afraid of having adult discussions then please go to those other websites.

I'm not so sure that lots of children insulting me and telling me I'm afraid of women is an adult discussion. You obviously don't know who you're talking to, or you wouldn't have insinuated such things.

Kindly point out all these phantom posts of children insulting you.

Also I'm not entirely sure if you fully comprehend how that last sentence of yours sounds. You do realize that at present all we have to go by is your posts in this thread, correct? Any assumption being made of your character is fully informed by what you've given us to go by.

AgentNein:

Whistler777:

ShadowKirby:

Whistler777:
Alright, it's offical: The Escapist is whoring itself out for hits. There's no other explanation for why you'd publish three or four self-righteous articles about girl gamers within 24 hours. I'd lost much respect for your News section when Michael Thomsen's article was published, but now I'm wondering if it's even worth the time to come back here anymore.

Wait a second here. How is publishing three articles that creates (for a while at least, and by some people only) intelligent debates and discussions whoring out. They did not publish three articles that were filled with images of boobs. Other websites (you know who you are) will do this routinely to get more hits but if one website has stayed away from this for and has always provided me with good, thoughtful articles, it was the Escapist.

If you are so afraid of having adult discussions then please go to those other websites.

I'm not so sure that lots of children insulting me and telling me I'm afraid of women is an adult discussion. You obviously don't know who you're talking to, or you wouldn't have insinuated such things.

Kindly point out all these phantom posts of children insulting you.

Also I'm not entirely sure if you fully comprehend how that last sentence of yours sounds. You do realize that at present all we have to go by is your posts in this thread, correct? Any assumption being made of your character is fully informed by what you've given us to go by.

I just ignore him.
I don't have the time or the energy to get into a flame war with someone like that.

Hulyen:

squid5580:

Hulyen:
I have to say that it IS depressing to see any mention of female gamers tends to have one of two reactions: "Female gamers are all attention whores" or "Female gamers are mostly women who play casual games or their husband's games once in a while" with very little middle ground.

What other reaction are we allowed at this point? Women don't want our "manly" games (well according to the media anyways) with our big manly chest beating characters. And of course the female characters are all triple D wearing a piece of string so no woman wants to see that. So until they create special games catering specifically to women these are the types of reactions we are allowed. Gaming isn't one size fits all gender, race or religious views afterall. And never will be while these stereotypes exist. And no matter what a game has to offer women it really doesn't matter since this is an unwinnable battle. Even if someone created the perfect "female" game people will still point at X-Blades or Ivy's outfit to prove that games are sexist.

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

ccesarano:

Erin Hoffman:
Social conservatives, meanwhile, disdained both game's and rock music's rising popularity, even going so far as to legislate against them in various parts of the world.

Just want to point out real quick that most of the politicians going against vidija games are Democrats, the foe of the Social Conservative.

Each side is always trying to pin the blame on the other...

Plenty of Democrats are social conservatives. Democrats may be the foe of the people who call themselves 'Social Conservatives', but that doesn't mean Democrats aren't capable of being social conservatives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Democrat

I mean, the two people I hear talk the most about video games from the Democratic party are Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman. The Clintons turned out to be social conservatives (remember DOMA) and Lieberman actually lost the Democratic primary for his incumbent seat for being too conservative.

squid5580:

Hulyen:

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

Every creative endeavor has a target audience of some kind, including games. Not making games to appeal to certain people and instead making some kind of Platonic ideal of a "good game" is so vague as to be essentially meaningless. Setting, abstractness, difficulty, density, all of these things are going to make some gamers want to play more and some gamers want to play less.

There is a kind of default cultural expectation amongst many gamers that a "normal," "good," or god help me, "real" game is one which happens to be aimed squarely at 14-year-old boys' love of cars, guns, and sports. Thus Plants vs Zombies is less "real" than Left For Dead 2.

Actually, I was kind of on the fence about riot grrl games, but seeing the idiotic responses by the adolescents in this thread, I'm totally on board with it now. Let's see a Dame Castrate'Em. I'm a straight guy, I'd be uncomfortable playing it, but the reactions of some of these little boys would be hilariously worth it.

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

That doesn't even make sense. Asking for a game you'll like is somehow wrong? We should just passively sit around and hope someone makes a game we like?

Rowan Kaiser:
Actually, I was kind of on the fence about riot grrl games, but seeing the idiotic responses by the adolescents in this thread, I'm totally on board with it now. Let's see a Dame Castrate'Em. I'm a straight guy, I'd be uncomfortable playing it, but the reactions of some of these little boys would be hilariously worth it.

/knucklebump

haha preach on, bro! We'll swing in like on a vine and totally save the women from their predicament with a game glorifying sexual violence! I bet we can score with some of them after, they'll be so grateful.

I'm hardly an expert but isn't that actually close to the opposite of what it would take to empower women working in the games industry, and maybe the exact opposite of a game that would actually appeal to females?

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

That doesn't even make sense. Asking for a game you'll like is somehow wrong? We should just passively sit around and hope someone makes a game we like?

Do you like every game on the market? Should we expect them to make a game that appeals to everyone? Sure it would be great but it is also impossible. Gamers have different tastes. No matter what sex we happen to be we all like different games. It isn't about you. It is about us. All of us.

NamesAreHardToPick:

Rowan Kaiser:
Actually, I was kind of on the fence about riot grrl games, but seeing the idiotic responses by the adolescents in this thread, I'm totally on board with it now. Let's see a Dame Castrate'Em. I'm a straight guy, I'd be uncomfortable playing it, but the reactions of some of these little boys would be hilariously worth it.

/knucklebump

haha preach on, bro! We'll swing in like on a vine and totally save the women from their predicament with a game glorifying sexual violence! I bet we can score with some of them after, they'll be so grateful.

I'm hardly an expert but isn't that actually close to the opposite of what it would take to empower women working in the games industry, and maybe the exact opposite of a game that would actually appeal to females?

Depends. That particular example might be a little excessive. Or it might not. But when dealing with social protest, extreme events tend to cause large initial backlash. The good ones are as reviled as the bad. Satire is treated as polemic. Supposed pro-civil rights politician Bobby Kennedy declared that the unhappy effects of the Freedom Rides were due to extremists on "both sides." Anyone who attempts to rock the power structure at all will get depicted terribly - look at half the messages in this thread.

So take the riot grrls. Here is probably the most anthemic riot grrl song of the bunch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZxxhxjgnC0

Can this aesthetic be translated to a game? How should it be?

To be honest, while I like this song, I don't really like a lot of riot grrl music, or even the aesthetic. But I do like its aftereffects. I think the Kill Rock Stars catalog of the late 90's and early 2000's is some of my favorite music, especially Sleater-Kinney. They weren't really riot grrls as Sleater-Kinney (barring their first album), but they got their musical start in that movement, and they kicked ass.

And here's the kicker - how many other all-female bands have had a major impact in the last 15 years? I'll put Sleater-Kinney and Le Tigre up against any of them for impact as well as quality. Regardless of how much disdain the supposed "immature" riot grrls got in the mainstream music press, they did more for women in rock and roll than not being a riot grrl did.

Rowan Kaiser:

NamesAreHardToPick:
I'm hardly an expert but isn't that actually close to the opposite of what it would take to empower women working in the games industry, and maybe the exact opposite of a game that would actually appeal to females?

Depends. That particular example might be a little excessive. Or it might not. But when dealing with social protest, extreme events tend to cause large initial backlash. The good ones are as reviled as the bad. Satire is treated as polemic. Supposed pro-civil rights politician Bobby Kennedy declared that the unhappy effects of the Freedom Rides were due to extremists on "both sides." Anyone who attempts to rock the power structure at all will get depicted terribly - look at half the messages in this thread.

My point was how chauvinistic the entire idea was... I don't think a bunch of men throwing their manly ideas around and depending on appeal to or money from the male audience is going to be part of the solution for getting more women in the industry and accurate depictions of women in games.

You're right in that games about stabbing a dude in the nuts might be totally up some (or all!) girls' alley... but it comes back to the point of "how would some random guy know that?"

Oh, I didn't suggest Dame Castrate'em as any kind of game that would definitely appeal to a female audience or any kind of audience. I chose it as a title that would be pretty much guaranteed to get a reaction from the boys who view video games as a pissing contest and have been all over this thread. Not that I expect it to be made, not that I expect it to be any good if it were made, but as a provocation.

It was attached to the other things I said not as an example of them, but just cause I didn't want to double-post.

And here you are, getting huffy about THAT and not this: "Because most girls don`t play what we call video games, most girls that consume this form of media play Dinner Dash and Farm Mania and after half an hour in Plants vs Zombies their brains start hurting."

Why is that?

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

That doesn't even make sense. Asking for a game you'll like is somehow wrong? We should just passively sit around and hope someone makes a game we like?

Do you like every game on the market? Should we expect them to make a game that appeals to everyone? Sure it would be great but it is also impossible. Gamers have different tastes. No matter what sex we happen to be we all like different games. It isn't about you. It is about us. All of us.

What does any of that have to do with what you wrote? You said: "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender" not "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make every game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender"

You said the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female' was about demanding "A" game, and now you're talking about someone demanding "ALL" games. Like I said: It sounds nice that phrase, but what does it actually mean? I still don't know, and considering you can't explain it, why do you think it's the "logical solution"?

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

How about just being seen as a gamer first and gender second? Some days it feels like even that's too much to ask for.

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

That doesn't even make sense. Asking for a game you'll like is somehow wrong? We should just passively sit around and hope someone makes a game we like?

Do you like every game on the market? Should we expect them to make a game that appeals to everyone? Sure it would be great but it is also impossible. Gamers have different tastes. No matter what sex we happen to be we all like different games. It isn't about you. It is about us. All of us.

What does any of that have to do with what you wrote? You said: "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender" not "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make every game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender"

You said the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female' was about demanding "A" game, and now you're talking about someone demanding "ALL" games. Like I said: It sounds nice that phrase, but what does it actually mean? I still don't know, and considering you can't explain it, why do you think it's the "logical solution"?

I did explain it and you explained it right back. Demanding one or all is still the same thing. You are still expecting the industry to bow down to you and your wants while telling the rest of us to kiss your shiny metal ass. Sure it may be the game you want but is it the game we want? Do you think real gamers care about what sex the protagonist happens to be? Or what clothes this female character is wearing? Should this be more important than gameplay or story or graphics? The one arguement I have heard that is relevant to the whole issue is characters need to be written better. The problem is that it becomes female characters need to be written better when the truth of the matter is all characters need better writing (with a few exceptions).

Yes, actually. The industry does care about the gender of the main characters. Look at the stellar No One Lives Forever games - how much did they sell? As long as everything defaults back to White Male Protagonist and nobody complains, any deviation from that is going to be viewed askance.

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Do you like every game on the market? Should we expect them to make a game that appeals to everyone? Sure it would be great but it is also impossible. Gamers have different tastes. No matter what sex we happen to be we all like different games. It isn't about you. It is about us. All of us.

What does any of that have to do with what you wrote? You said: "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender" not "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make every game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender"

You said the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female' was about demanding "A" game, and now you're talking about someone demanding "ALL" games. Like I said: It sounds nice that phrase, but what does it actually mean? I still don't know, and considering you can't explain it, why do you think it's the "logical solution"?

I did explain it and you explained it right back. Demanding one or all is still the same thing. You are still expecting the industry to bow down to you and your wants while telling the rest of us to kiss your shiny metal ass.

How? There's a difference between asking for a game that appeals to you and a game that appeals to ONLY you. No one's asking for games that appeal ONLY to girl gamers.

Sure it may be the game you want but is it the game we want? Do you think real gamers care about what sex the protagonist happens to be? Or what clothes this female character is wearing?

If you don't care about the sex of the protagonist or the clothes the female character is wearing, how would a game that caters to 'Girl Gamers' not be the kind of game you want? If you are being honest and you really don't care about these things, why does it bother you that people are asking for them? It won't affect your enjoyment of the game any if you care as little about those things as you say you do.

Should this be more important than gameplay or story or graphics?

No matter how great the gameplay or story or graphics are in Rapelay or Ethnic Cleansing, I don't think I'll enjoy them. Maybe that disqualifies me from being a TROO GAMER in your eyes, but hey--I'll have to live with that. Maybe you'd enjoy SimConcentrationCamp and 19thCenturyCongoRubberFarmVille, but I don't think I would.

In short, you forgot another part of what makes a good game: atmosphere/theme/whatever you want to call the stuff that's like 'story' but isn't exactly 'plot'. How does the game make you *feel* when you play it.

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