235: Riot Grrrls Wanted

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Hope Chest:

In short, you forgot another part of what makes a good game: atmosphere/theme/whatever you want to call the stuff that's like 'story' but isn't exactly 'plot'. How does the game make you *feel* when you play it.

I'm coming to like the term "concept" for the non-gameplay-oriented aspects of the game. Though that includes plot. If you take plot out, "style" would work perfectly.

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Do you like every game on the market? Should we expect them to make a game that appeals to everyone? Sure it would be great but it is also impossible. Gamers have different tastes. No matter what sex we happen to be we all like different games. It isn't about you. It is about us. All of us.

What does any of that have to do with what you wrote? You said: "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender" not "I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make every game that is tailor made to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender"

You said the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female' was about demanding "A" game, and now you're talking about someone demanding "ALL" games. Like I said: It sounds nice that phrase, but what does it actually mean? I still don't know, and considering you can't explain it, why do you think it's the "logical solution"?

I did explain it and you explained it right back. Demanding one or all is still the same thing. You are still expecting the industry to bow down to you and your wants while telling the rest of us to kiss your shiny metal ass.

How? There's a difference between asking for a game that appeals to you and a game that appeals to ONLY you. No one's asking for games that appeal ONLY to girl gamers.

Sure it may be the game you want but is it the game we want? Do you think real gamers care about what sex the protagonist happens to be? Or what clothes this female character is wearing?

If you don't care about the sex of the protagonist or the clothes the female character is wearing, how would a game that caters to 'Girl Gamers' not be the kind of game you want? If you are being honest and you really don't care about these things, why does it bother you that people are asking for them? It won't affect your enjoyment of the game any if you care as little about those things as you say you do.

Should this be more important than gameplay or story or graphics?

No matter how great the gameplay or story or graphics are in Rapelay or Ethnic Cleansing, I don't think I'll enjoy them. Maybe that disqualifies me from being a TROO GAMER in your eyes, but hey--I'll have to live with that. Maybe you'd enjoy SimConcentrationCamp and 19thCenturyCongoRubberFarmVille, but I don't think I would.

In short, you forgot another part of what makes a good game: atmosphere/theme/whatever you want to call the stuff that's like 'story' but isn't exactly 'plot'. How does the game make you *feel* when you play it.

Oh where oh where to begin. You expect developers to invest millions into a niche game that is meant to cater to a part of a whole community? One that can't figure out what the hell it wants in the first place. And one they can't please anyways because they are paying for the sins of others. As for the clothes or the sex I don't care. I have played well dressed females, well dressed males, scantily clad aliens, armored ? sexed folks and the list goes on and on. And yet this debate still rages. Why? Because you can't please everyone. And once again I must point out it doesn't matter if you don't like Rapelay or Ethnic Cleansing. It doesn't matter that I don't like realistic shooters and won't play a COD game. Because once again your or my opinion doesn't matter when it is stacked against the thousands or millions that do (though I do appreciate being judged like that). And I didn't forget what makes a game good. Story covers more than just plot. If I had meant plot I would have said plot. Where do you think atmosphere or theme comes from if not from the story? Or should I not give you the benefit of the doubt in thinking that you can use your brain and read what is being said without me having to explain it word to word like I would to a 3 year old?

Bottom line is there is tons of games out there that are not sexist, do not portray women as sex symbols. And some even make the heroine the star of the show. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be enough though since the heroine is usually somewhat attractive even in frumpy clothes and thats all it takes.

so was this article about revolution in the game industry by using an all female team who makes up their own idea/ creation and then tries to sell it to the world?
That good go very very good, if the public receives their idea/creation well enough, but I have a feeling that if it goes even slightly wrong than the public will tear apart women like a bomb dropping on Beaver-Cleaver ville.

squid5580:
Oh where oh where to begin. You expect developers to invest millions into a niche game that is meant to cater to a part of a whole community? One that can't figure out what the hell it wants in the first place. And one they can't please anyways because they are paying for the sins of others. As for the clothes or the sex I don't care. I have played well dressed females, well dressed males, scantily clad aliens, armored ? sexed folks and the list goes on and on. And yet this debate still rages. Why? Because you can't please everyone.

image

Why not? Make a *good* game--no matter how niche--and people will play it (as long as you market it well and you're not Tim Schafer), whether it's aimed at their niche or not. I would think you'd be the first to agree with that sentiment.

And once again I must point out it doesn't matter if you don't like Rapelay or Ethnic Cleansing. It doesn't matter that I don't like realistic shooters and won't play a COD game. Because once again your or my opinion doesn't matter when it is stacked against the thousands or millions that do (though I do appreciate being judged like that).

Maybe, maybe not: isn't relevant to my point that there are some things about a game that can be more important than gameplay or story or graphics.

And I didn't forget what makes a game good. Story covers more than just plot. If I had meant plot I would have said plot. Where do you think atmosphere or theme comes from if not from the story?

image

Bottom line is there is tons of games out there that are not sexist, do not portray women as sex symbols. And some even make the heroine the star of the show. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be enough though since the heroine is usually somewhat attractive even in frumpy clothes and thats all it takes.

I don't doubt it seems that way to you; however, the way things seem to you and reality...it's becoming clear those are two very different things.

You're just way too oversensitive when it comes to this issue. You shouldn't get so upset over the things people say, taking them so personally like this that you invent some fake distinction between 'Girl Gamers' and 'Gamers Who Are Girls' that you can't even express without attacking a strawoman. You just need to toughen up, grow a thicker skin, and this issue won't bother you.

LOL, stawoman...I get it, she helps me drink from the bottom of the glass without making me raise it to my lips....o0

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Oh where oh where to begin. You expect developers to invest millions into a niche game that is meant to cater to a part of a whole community? One that can't figure out what the hell it wants in the first place. And one they can't please anyways because they are paying for the sins of others. As for the clothes or the sex I don't care. I have played well dressed females, well dressed males, scantily clad aliens, armored ? sexed folks and the list goes on and on. And yet this debate still rages. Why? Because you can't please everyone.

image

Why not? Make a *good* game--no matter how niche--and people will play it (as long as you market it well and you're not Tim Schafer), whether it's aimed at their niche or not. I would think you'd be the first to agree with that sentiment.

And once again I must point out it doesn't matter if you don't like Rapelay or Ethnic Cleansing. It doesn't matter that I don't like realistic shooters and won't play a COD game. Because once again your or my opinion doesn't matter when it is stacked against the thousands or millions that do (though I do appreciate being judged like that).

Maybe, maybe not: isn't relevant to my point that there are some things about a game that can be more important than gameplay or story or graphics.

And I didn't forget what makes a game good. Story covers more than just plot. If I had meant plot I would have said plot. Where do you think atmosphere or theme comes from if not from the story?

image

Bottom line is there is tons of games out there that are not sexist, do not portray women as sex symbols. And some even make the heroine the star of the show. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be enough though since the heroine is usually somewhat attractive even in frumpy clothes and thats all it takes.

I don't doubt it seems that way to you; however, the way things seem to you and reality...it's becoming clear those are two very different things.

You're just way too oversensitive when it comes to this issue. You shouldn't get so upset over the things people say, taking them so personally like this that you invent some fake distinction between 'Girl Gamers' and 'Gamers Who Are Girls' that you can't even express without attacking a strawoman. You just need to toughen up, grow a thicker skin, and this issue won't bother you.

Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes. Woman want equality well they got it in the industry. Most female characters are dressed and written just as well as thier male counterparts. But that is not what they want now is it? No they want special treatment. That is what pisses me off.

squid5580:
Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes.

Granting that for the sake of argument, why would giving into a double standard be a problem if it wouldn't lower the quality of the "gameplay or story or graphics" of a title? Why are you complaining about an issue of gender politics that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of games?

Wouldn't that make you a 'Boy Gamer' instead of just a 'Gamer Who Is A Boy'?

ThirdPrize:

spiritslayr:
Unfortunately this article compares something as cool as being in a band to something as drab as designing a video game. Music idolises the band members while game designers are virtually unheard of.

It is also a bit trickier creating games. You just need 3 mates to start a band and possibly a few hundred to record a CD. Compare that to putting out even a small indie game.

Yeah, but then you have the small hurdle of actually WRITING MUSIC TO GO ON THE CD.

Bellerophone:
I feel like I bond with male protagonists, like FFVII's Cloud, or Legend of Zelda's Link, or--most recently--Wander from Shadow of the Colossus.

Do you think it's a coincidence that these particular examples of male protagonists you bond with actually possess feminine qualities?

Although I don't think it is at all, this is actually not a rethorical question.

Bellerophone:
I think articles like this one are important, even if we don't entirely agree with them, because they make us criticize video games as a medium in order to improve it.

Bellerophone:
I'm a girl, and while I avoid games like GTA and Gears of War, I love games like Fire Emblem, Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy, Zelda. I don't think these games were designed to cater to a target audience; I would these games art, designed for the sake of making a really beautiful balance of narrative and gameplay.

Hear, hear.

dasUnbekannte:
Honestly, a game where I do nothing but run around (at a reasonable pace) and apparently manipulate people into doing what I want sounds really boring.

I tend to agree with the running part, but the potential in a game where you manipulate and trick people into doing what you want is huge.

Rowan Kaiser:

Hope Chest:

In short, you forgot another part of what makes a good game: atmosphere/theme/whatever you want to call the stuff that's like 'story' but isn't exactly 'plot'. How does the game make you *feel* when you play it.

I'm coming to like the term "concept" for the non-gameplay-oriented aspects of the game. Though that includes plot. If you take plot out, "style" would work perfectly.

"Style" is overly vague, though it does emcompass the concept. But the idea that it is inherently separate from gameplay kinda sucks.

Hope Chest:
You're just way too oversensitive when it comes to this issue.

From reading a few articles relating to gender topics in games, I'm coming to realize that a lot of guys are way too insecure about it.

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes.

Granting that for the sake of argument, why would giving into a double standard be a problem if it wouldn't lower the quality of the "gameplay or story or graphics" of a title? Why are you complaining about an issue of gender politics that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of games?

Wouldn't that make you a 'Boy Gamer' instead of just a 'Gamer Who Is A Boy'?

It isn't a matter of the politics effecting me on a personal level. You believe what you believe and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. What bothers me is when a good game gets bad publicity because it doesn't cater towards a specific group and offer special treatment to those who are calling for equality. "OMG this game is horrible because the protagonist is male or straight or white. Quick we must form a boycott group! And force our beliefs down everyone elses throats while we are at it. No way is any white male playing this without a twinge of guilt after we are done."

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes.

Granting that for the sake of argument, why would giving into a double standard be a problem if it wouldn't lower the quality of the "gameplay or story or graphics" of a title? Why are you complaining about an issue of gender politics that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of games?

Wouldn't that make you a 'Boy Gamer' instead of just a 'Gamer Who Is A Boy'?

It isn't a matter of the politics effecting me on a personal level. You believe what you believe and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. What bothers me is when a good game gets bad publicity because it doesn't cater towards a specific group and offer special treatment to those who are calling for equality. "OMG this game is horrible because the protagonist is male or straight or white. Quick we must form a boycott group! And force our beliefs down everyone elses throats while we are at it. No way is any white male playing this without a twinge of guilt after we are done."

Can you list some of these boycott groups for me?

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes.

Granting that for the sake of argument, why would giving into a double standard be a problem if it wouldn't lower the quality of the "gameplay or story or graphics" of a title? Why are you complaining about an issue of gender politics that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of games?

Wouldn't that make you a 'Boy Gamer' instead of just a 'Gamer Who Is A Boy'?

It isn't a matter of the politics effecting me on a personal level. You believe what you believe and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. What bothers me is when a good game gets bad publicity because it doesn't cater towards a specific group and offer special treatment to those who are calling for equality. "OMG this game is horrible because the protagonist is male or straight or white. Quick we must form a boycott group! And force our beliefs down everyone elses throats while we are at it. No way is any white male playing this without a twinge of guilt after we are done."

Can you list some of these boycott groups for me?

Last one that actually got some publicity was Shadow Complex and the anti gay writer. The RE5 debaukle. Frag Dolls being sexist and the list just goes on and on. Luckily for gamers most online boycott groups don't mean jack.

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes.

Granting that for the sake of argument, why would giving into a double standard be a problem if it wouldn't lower the quality of the "gameplay or story or graphics" of a title? Why are you complaining about an issue of gender politics that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of games?

Wouldn't that make you a 'Boy Gamer' instead of just a 'Gamer Who Is A Boy'?

It isn't a matter of the politics effecting me on a personal level. You believe what you believe and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. What bothers me is when a good game gets bad publicity because it doesn't cater towards a specific group and offer special treatment to those who are calling for equality. "OMG this game is horrible because the protagonist is male or straight or white. Quick we must form a boycott group! And force our beliefs down everyone elses throats while we are at it. No way is any white male playing this without a twinge of guilt after we are done."

Can you list some of these boycott groups for me?

Last one that actually got some publicity was Shadow Complex and the anti gay writer. The RE5 debaukle. Frag Dolls being sexist and the list just goes on and on. Luckily for gamers most online boycott groups don't mean jack.

What does a boycott over Orson Scott Card's beliefs on homosexuality have to do with the line between 'Girl Gamers' and 'Gamers who happen to be Girls'?

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Upset? No! Pissed at the stupidity of a double standard? Yes.

Granting that for the sake of argument, why would giving into a double standard be a problem if it wouldn't lower the quality of the "gameplay or story or graphics" of a title? Why are you complaining about an issue of gender politics that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of games?

Wouldn't that make you a 'Boy Gamer' instead of just a 'Gamer Who Is A Boy'?

It isn't a matter of the politics effecting me on a personal level. You believe what you believe and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. What bothers me is when a good game gets bad publicity because it doesn't cater towards a specific group and offer special treatment to those who are calling for equality. "OMG this game is horrible because the protagonist is male or straight or white. Quick we must form a boycott group! And force our beliefs down everyone elses throats while we are at it. No way is any white male playing this without a twinge of guilt after we are done."

Can you list some of these boycott groups for me?

Last one that actually got some publicity was Shadow Complex and the anti gay writer. The RE5 debaukle. Frag Dolls being sexist and the list just goes on and on. Luckily for gamers most online boycott groups don't mean jack.

What does a boycott over Orson Scott Card's beliefs on homosexuality have to do with the line between 'Girl Gamers' and 'Gamers who happen to be Girls'?

Everything. It is the politics of it. What is happening is you are using something unrelated to the actual game to push your agenda. Let me ask you this what does a girl gamer want that no game has ever done before?

You see it isn't that I think the industry is perfect or isn't in need of a major overhaul. I just don't think that attempting to make gender specific games is the way to go about the change that is needed. We need stronger characters period. Not stronger female characters. Just look at our 2 major male heroes. Master Chief and Gordon Freeman. Are they well rounded characters? No because they don't say a word. They don't have a personality. They are just hands holding guns for the majority of the game. Now would adding a coat of fingernail polish to those hands make any difference? The girl gamer arguement is yes. My arguement is no. Give them a voice and some well written dialogue and that will attract more gamers of both genders. And then no one should get all up in arms that they were of this sex or that because it won't matter. Well at least in theory anyways. There will always be some who can't appreciate a good game because the PC is of a different race,sex or sexual orientation and there is no way the industry can make them happy other than with a character creator system.

squid5580:

Everything. It is the politics of it. What is happening is you are using something unrelated to the actual game to push your agenda. Let me ask you this what does a girl gamer want that no game has ever done before?

You see it isn't that I think the industry is perfect or isn't in need of a major overhaul. I just don't think that attempting to make gender specific games is the way to go about the change that is needed. We need stronger characters period. Not stronger female characters.

How is a call for a game to have stronger female characters something unrelated to the actual game?

Ericb:
"Style" is overly vague, though it does emcompass the concept. But the idea that it is inherently separate from gameplay kinda sucks.

There are aspects of games that aren't directly related to gameplay. Unless you're saying "style of gameplay" and think that might be confusing, saying it "kinda sucks" doesn't really make much sense.

Rowan Kaiser:

Ericb:
"Style" is overly vague, though it does emcompass the concept. But the idea that it is inherently separate from gameplay kinda sucks.

There are aspects of games that aren't directly related to gameplay. Unless you're saying "style of gameplay" and think that might be confusing, saying it "kinda sucks" doesn't really make much sense.

I think it's one of those things where if style and gameplay can coincide, that's great: I'm thinking of Ico here, and how the rumble/taking her hand/etc. was both gameplay and style, or how people who love the survival horror genre have defended the control, um, 'issues' by saying it adds to the anxiety of the overall experience.

Doesn't mean though that every piece of style has to be seamlessly merged with gameplay--as long as the style and gameplay don't get in each other's way, I'd say that's great. It's good for designers to try and tie gameplay with style together as much as possible, but, just like not every film has to be an art house flick where the camera tells as much of the story as the characters, a game can accomplish style through things that aren't pure gameplay.

Hope Chest:

Rowan Kaiser:

Ericb:
"Style" is overly vague, though it does emcompass the concept. But the idea that it is inherently separate from gameplay kinda sucks.

There are aspects of games that aren't directly related to gameplay. Unless you're saying "style of gameplay" and think that might be confusing, saying it "kinda sucks" doesn't really make much sense.

I think it's one of those things where if style and gameplay can coincide, that's great: I'm thinking of Ico here, and how the rumble/taking her hand/etc. was both gameplay and style, or how people who love the survival horror genre have defended the control, um, 'issues' by saying it adds to the anxiety of the overall experience.

That's what I meant by saying this separation sucks. Not because gameplay has to be merged with narrative and atmosphere every single time, but because it so rarely is.

A lot on the subject is pointed out in the article Gameplay And Story Segregation.

About survival horrors, I actually think the tank controls are not at all necessary as the fans claim it to be, event though I'm a fan myself. Atmosphere is key, though.

To stay on topic, here's a link to an article called The Top 7... Tasteful Game Heroines.

Ah, I understand a bit more. I disagree, though. It's just one of those things where there's always going to be some kind of border. Like in comics, there's art and there are words. Sometimes the two can interact, and when they do in an interesting fashion, it's really cool. But I think there's always going to be a separation.

Aaargh. I realised it was Erin only at the third page, and stopped reading.

Admittedly, I was checking who wrote it because it seemed familiarly retarded..

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Everything. It is the politics of it. What is happening is you are using something unrelated to the actual game to push your agenda. Let me ask you this what does a girl gamer want that no game has ever done before?

You see it isn't that I think the industry is perfect or isn't in need of a major overhaul. I just don't think that attempting to make gender specific games is the way to go about the change that is needed. We need stronger characters period. Not stronger female characters.

How is a call for a game to have stronger female characters something unrelated to the actual game?

Did you just read the last sentence? Try reading the sentence right before it. SInce I am a gentleman I will even bold it for you.

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Everything. It is the politics of it. What is happening is you are using something unrelated to the actual game to push your agenda. Let me ask you this what does a girl gamer want that no game has ever done before?

You see it isn't that I think the industry is perfect or isn't in need of a major overhaul. I just don't think that attempting to make gender specific games is the way to go about the change that is needed. We need stronger characters period. Not stronger female characters.

How is a call for a game to have stronger female characters something unrelated to the actual game?

Did you just read the last sentence? Try reading the sentence right before it. SInce I am a gentleman I will even bold it for you.

How will a call for stronger female characters not get us closer to "stronger characters period"?

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Everything. It is the politics of it. What is happening is you are using something unrelated to the actual game to push your agenda. Let me ask you this what does a girl gamer want that no game has ever done before?

You see it isn't that I think the industry is perfect or isn't in need of a major overhaul. I just don't think that attempting to make gender specific games is the way to go about the change that is needed. We need stronger characters period. Not stronger female characters.

How is a call for a game to have stronger female characters something unrelated to the actual game?

Did you just read the last sentence? Try reading the sentence right before it. SInce I am a gentleman I will even bold it for you.

How will a call for stronger female characters not get us closer to "stronger characters period"?

Because then the perception becomes a feminist movement wanting special treatment that is easily ignored. Asking for all characters to be made stronger puts us all on a level playing field and doesn't put the developers in the position of offending one group to appease another. Unless of course my theory is correct and that when ever a "minority group" requests something like this it isn't for equality but superiority.

squid5580:

Because then the perception becomes a feminist movement wanting special treatment that is easily ignored. Asking for all characters to be made stronger puts us all on a level playing field and doesn't put the developers in the position of offending one group to appease another. Unless of course my theory is correct and that when ever a "minority group" requests something like this it isn't for equality but superiority.

Do you realize how circular this is? You're trying to convince people there's a difference between women and bitches Girls who happen to Game and Girl Gamers so they will perceive the call for stronger female characters as something to be ignored...because you are concerned that people will have the very same perception you're arguing they should have.

image

You didn't like Bayonetta? Seriously?

Has anyone in this entire thread ever heard of indie games?

What's all this talk about getting into the industry and making AAA games? That's the last thing anyone who actually wants to be in charge of making their own game would want to do. At least if they don't want to wait ten years climbing the corporate ladder.

Granted, I haven't heard of many female indie game developers either, but I'm sure they're out there.

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Because then the perception becomes a feminist movement wanting special treatment that is easily ignored. Asking for all characters to be made stronger puts us all on a level playing field and doesn't put the developers in the position of offending one group to appease another. Unless of course my theory is correct and that when ever a "minority group" requests something like this it isn't for equality but superiority.

Do you realize how circular this is? You're trying to convince people there's a difference between women and bitches Girls who happen to Game and Girl Gamers so they will perceive the call for stronger female characters as something to be ignored...because you are concerned that people will have the very same perception you're arguing they should have.

image

Ok fine lets make stronger female characters and the male ones can just let be. Obviously you won't be happy unless you get superiority so you can feel equal. Now you tell me how that is fair? Oh thats right you can't because it isn't. If calling for equally strong roles for characters of all gender roles makes me a troll so be it. Better that than a raging feminst with feeling of inadequecy that you must overcompensate when someone calls for equality in the industry (A.K.A. girl gamer) such as yourself.

Although I did quite enjoy watching you completely avoid the post and dredging up a post from a couple pages back. Anything to make your point huh? I guess desperate times call for desperate measures. Too bad my words are immortalized here and as much as you try and make me look bad the only thing you managed to accomplish was making yourself look the fool.

squid5580:
Ok fine lets make stronger female characters and the male ones can just let be.

Why when you read "lets make stronger female characters" do you tack on "the male ones can just let be"?

Although I did quite enjoy watching you completely avoid the post and dredging up a post from a couple pages back. Anything to make your point huh?

Yes--believe it or not, when you make a post like this:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

And someone asks you a simple question like this:

Hope Chest:

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

it's your fault it took you pages to answer--or in this case, fail to answer--that simple question.

All you've been asked to do is explain the difference between 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female': if it's the "logical solution" why can't you without becoming Concern Troll and attacking strawomen by reading the call for stronger female characters as an order to let male characters be?

Hope Chest:

squid5580:
Ok fine lets make stronger female characters and the male ones can just let be.

Why when you read "lets make stronger female characters" do you tack on "the male ones can just let be"?

Although I did quite enjoy watching you completely avoid the post and dredging up a post from a couple pages back. Anything to make your point huh?

Yes--believe it or not, when you make a post like this:

squid5580:

Hulyen:

Too much emphasis on 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female.'

And there is it. The logical solution. Let them make games they want to make and let the people who enjoy them enjoy them. Win/win except for the conspiracy theorists who will constantly bring up this old debate.

When exactly did equality equal special priviledges?

And someone asks you a simple question like this:

Hope Chest:

Where exactly is the line between 'Female Gamers' and 'Gamers that happen to be female'? It sounds nice, but what does it actually mean? If it's the logical solution, what does that solution look like?

it's your fault it took you pages to answer--or in this case, fail to answer--that simple question.

All you've been asked to do is explain the difference between 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female': why can't you if it's the "logical solution"?

Ahh but if you had been paying attention I did repeatedly. But since you need it dumbed down I will oblige. A girl gamer wants only females to be portrayed better. To have better dialogue for only female characters. To have only female characters be better written and for lack of a better word portrayed.

A female who is a gamer wants all those things as well but doesn't limit to just female characters. Instead wanting all characters (male, female, alien transvestite) to be treated with more respect. Unfortunately that is a problem for girl gamers.

I have answered your questions time and time again (which I can't say the same about any of mine) you just don't like the answer because you think you should be treated better not equal.

squid5580:

Hope Chest:
All you've been asked to do is explain the difference between 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female': why can't you if it's the "logical solution"?

Ahh but if you had been paying attention I did repeatedly. But since you need it dumbed down I will oblige. A girl gamer wants only females to be portrayed better. To have better dialogue for only female characters. To have only female characters be better written and for lack of a better word portrayed.

A female who is a gamer wants all those things as well but doesn't limit to just female characters. Instead wanting all characters (male, female, alien transvestite) to be treated with more respect. Unfortunately that is a problem for girl gamers.

That's not what you said before:

squid5580:

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

What about a gamer that wants both the male and the female characters to be written better as part of making a game that caters to her tastes as a woman?

It seems to me this whole 'difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers"' is a meaningless phrase at best, and more likely a piece of rhetoric for people who want to shut down the conversation about how to make better games because of an outside agenda.

I have answered your questions time and time again (which I can't say the same about any of mine) you just don't like the answer because you think you should be treated better not equal.

Why do you keep projecting on people? Why if someone says "we need better female characters" you take it as "we should let male characters be"? Why do you take me asking you as simple a question as "what does that phrase you said is the 'logical solution' really mean" as proof I think I should be treated better and not equal?

Which...I don't even understand considering I'm a guy.

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

Hope Chest:
All you've been asked to do is explain the difference between 'Female Gamers' and not just 'Gamers that happen to be female': why can't you if it's the "logical solution"?

Ahh but if you had been paying attention I did repeatedly. But since you need it dumbed down I will oblige. A girl gamer wants only females to be portrayed better. To have better dialogue for only female characters. To have only female characters be better written and for lack of a better word portrayed.

A female who is a gamer wants all those things as well but doesn't limit to just female characters. Instead wanting all characters (male, female, alien transvestite) to be treated with more respect. Unfortunately that is a problem for girl gamers.

That's not what you said before:

squid5580:

I think the line is hey they made a game I like vs they must make a game that is tailor made
to to cater to my tastes, beliefs and gender. That is where I believe the difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers" lies.

What about a gamer that wants both the male and the female characters to be written better as part of making a game that caters to her tastes as a woman?

It seems to me this whole 'difference between gamers of the female persuasion and "girl gamers"' is a meaningless phrase at best, and more likely a piece of rhetoric for people who want to shut down the conversation about how to make better games because of an outside agenda.

I have answered your questions time and time again (which I can't say the same about any of mine) you just don't like the answer because you think you should be treated better not equal.

Why do you keep projecting on people? Why if someone says "we need better female characters" you take it as "we should let male characters be"? Why do you take me asking you as simple a question as "what does that phrase you said is the 'logical solution' really mean" as proof I think I should be treated better and not equal?

Which...I don't even understand considering I'm a guy.

So what do you think the reaction would be if the Escapist posted an article calling for better treatment of specifically male charaters. Fuck the female characters we need better male characters. So they can appeal to more male gamers. Oh it doesn't look so good when it is put like that does it? Got a bit of a sexist vibe to it doesn't it? Mmmm tastes like double standard.

squid5580:

So what do you think the reaction would be if the Escapist posted an article calling for better treatment of specifically male charaters.

People like you would complain about Girl Gamers/Feminists/other imaginary foes always showing men in a bad light.

The devs and their ideas come first, games come second, the gamer comes last of all. But if you don't like the dev's ideas and their characters - don't buy their games.

It's much like politics, if you don't like the party's policies - you can vote for another party who's policies are more in line with your own.

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

So what do you think the reaction would be if the Escapist posted an article calling for better treatment of specifically male charaters.

People like you would complain about Girl Gamers/Feminists/other imaginary foes always showing men in a bad light.

People like you would defend the hypocrisy of it. People like you looking for a fight where there isn't one cuz guess what in games when are represented as equally as men in most games. Poorly!

squid5580:

Hope Chest:

squid5580:

So what do you think the reaction would be if the Escapist posted an article calling for better treatment of specifically male charaters.

People like you would complain about Girl Gamers/Feminists/other imaginary foes always showing men in a bad light.

People like you would defend the hypocrisy of it.

You realize you've just said that I'm the kind of person who will defend both the call for better treatment of specifically male characters AND the call for better treatment of specifically female characters, right?

How exactly is that a bad thing?

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