A View From The Road: Fail to the King

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A View From The Road: Fail to the King

Last week, top WoW raiders killed the Lich King - but at what cost?

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Nice to see people who cheat get in trouble for it. They had it coming.

This was a great article! I cannot stand WoW but I was thoroughly entertained and genuinely interested in what was being said. Great article!

How do these kinds of bugs exist? How badly would the programming be that a aoe attack heals the destructable floor(at least, that's how I interpretted it)?
It's people like that that ruined Guild Wars. They keep using cheap tactics and bugs to farm everything so that everyone else's real achievements look worse by comparison. That guild deserved it.

Much ado about nothing indeed. Why care if you are not in Ensidia or Paragon?
Good article.

AvsJoe:
This was a great article! I cannot stand WoW but I was thoroughly entertained and genuinely interested in what was being said. Great article!

Same here, its nice to see someone is as angry at this kind of stuff as I am

I had read about this a while ago and checked out their guild site in curiosity. For progression runs you have to be available all the time. No ifs ands or buts, or you're out. This is why I quit WoW and later learned to resent it. The ridiculous demand for you to meet your guild's schedule, which can very well be absurd hours, no matter what.

Interesting

I have always hated MMORPGs, but the political/scandelous stuff that happens on them (particularly EVE) fascinates me

Well the siege damage came from using a bomb that was used on all other encounters by rogues for max dps, but I really don't care about Ensidia.

oppp7:
How do these kinds of bugs exist? How badly would the programming be that a aoe attack heals the destructable floor(at least, that's how I interpretted it)?
It's people like that that ruined Guild Wars. They keep using cheap tactics and bugs to farm everything so that everyone else's real achievements look worse by comparison. That guild deserved it.

Siege Damage is something that's intended for use in PvP siege warfare, for example the battle in Wintergrasp, and it's usually caused by piloting one of the siege vehicles (or, in this case, the Engineer-crafted bombs). I don't know if it's just not something that they thought of testing or what.

Honestly, the code in WoW is so convoluted and snarled after five years of fixes, patches, hotfixes, and the like that it's almost not surprising. I would not be surprised if Cataclysm included some severe streamlining of the code.

ItsAPaul:
Well the siege damage came from using a bomb that was used on all other encounters by rogues for max dps, but I really don't care about Ensidia.

It's 16.6 extra DPS. The Lich King had 75 million HP, and their rogues were already flirting with 10k DPS here. Hardly essential.

If it had been, say, an extra 300 DPS like the poison-swapping thing? Then sure, I could have understood that, but this was such a trivial increase in damage.

You're not alone on being stuck on Festergut, I hate that fight!

OT: Seems so trivial, but going for a record first on such a legendary boss and thinking of cheating is... well... dirty. It cheapens the race to be number one! I find it hard to believe that they couldn't possibly foresee some kind of punishment for their actions.

I want to know why blizzard started being so anal about the exploits to make the fights easier. I remember doing bugs back in the day for bosses like Geddon, Shazz, Onyxia, and even in BC for Prince, Vashj, and many many others. I haven't played in a while so correct me if I am wrong, but all the way through BC and into the first part of lich the Mag fight and the Prince fight still had incredible exploits that were used by many with no such consequences.

John Funk:

It's 16.6 extra DPS. The Lich King had 75 million HP, and their rogues were already flirting with 10k DPS here. Hardly essential.

If it had been, say, an extra 300 DPS like the poison-swapping thing? Then sure, I could have understood that, but this was such a trivial increase in damage.

Well I think the more damning fact is that they continued to use it after they discovered the side effects. I wouldn't doubt they they discovered it by the rogues using them, as a prior raiding rogue I used to make changes, adjust rotations and use items that contributed tiny amounts of DPS, especially on a progression fight.

And while you should certainly make every effort to find and fix all the bugs before launching such a fight, I don't see it being that big a deal that Blizzard missed this. As someone who has worked and played both sides of experiencing, documenting, reproducing, fixing, etc - bugs. It's no surprise to me that of the millions of items and effects in even your standard MMO, let along one that's been running for years, that a few are going to interact in unforeseen ways. It happens and guess what, it will happen again too I guarantee it. It's just the nature of having that much content.

CoverYourHead:
You're not alone on being stuck on Festergut, I hate that fight!

OT: Seems so trivial, but going for a record first on such a legendary boss and thinking of cheating is... well... dirty. It cheapens the race to be number one! I find it hard to believe that they couldn't possibly foresee some kind of punishment for their actions.

They've had some acts on past first kills (either as nihilum or ensidia) that have been questionable by some in the community. I'm not commenting on whether these were right or not but just saying it isn't the first time something has come up. Their guild leader is the same person that, when the guild he mentioned about Yogg exploited, could send an email directly to the developer to complain about it. They have an increased level of communication compared to a standard group of players and have received no warnings in the past for similar activities.

I think the reason some people care is it can be fun to follow it like a race just like any other competition. I play some but no where near enough (nor do I want to) to be competing for a world first. It can be fun to cheer for your favorite guild.

AvsJoe:
This was a great article! I cannot stand WoW but I was thoroughly entertained and genuinely interested in what was being said. Great article!

Yeah it was real well done! I've never even played WoW and I read it!

oppp7:
How do these kinds of bugs exist? How badly would the programming be that a aoe attack heals the destructable floor(at least, that's how I interpretted it)?
It's people like that that ruined Guild Wars. They keep using cheap tactics and bugs to farm everything so that everyone else's real achievements look worse by comparison. That guild deserved it.

It's hard to understand if you've never messed with programming before.

What happens when these edges are destroyed is that their HP is set to 0. IE, the edges "die" and fall off from the rest of the platform. When the Saronite bombs are used by the rogue they put out aoe Siege damage. This Siege damage hits the edges even though they are dead, effectively sending the HP of the ledges into the negative. Since you obviously can't have something with negative HP the game effectively resets the destroyed edges back to 100% HP, which "ressurects" them and brings them back up to the rest of the platform.

In other words the bombs doing siege damage and pushing the edges into negative HP screws with the game and the only response the game has to that is to put the HP of the edges back at 100%.

OT: I find this whole situation laughable ironic. Ensidia has been known to bash other guilds (Exodus was NOT the first) for exploiting and they finally get caught with their hands in the cookie jar. The most damning evidence in all this is that they KNEW it was a bugged kill (they admit it on their personal blogs) and yet they still posted on their website that they got the World First with no mention whatsoever of the bug.

They never acknowledged they killed him on a bugged attempt until AFTER the the bug was hotfixed by Blizzard. If Ensidia had at least posted the fact that they had killed him on a bugged attempt then I would believe them when they say they didn't know what was causing it, but hiding that fact and only coming clean once they got caught makes them guilty in my eyes.

Edit: Whats also funny is that this type of bug existed back in ToC. Saronite Bombs would reset the floor of the collisuem and it was Ensidia that discovered this bug. So you're telling me they could tell it was Saronite bombs resetting the floor in ToC, but they couldn't figure out it was the bombs resetting the edges in the LK encounter? Gimme a break.

reminds me of DnD 3.5 edition, with the way some players could create broken characters (like pun pun).. and that some bragged about killing gods. Because if it have stats, we can kill it.

Once you have beaten a god/ultimate boss (like the lich king), what is the point in trying to continue a game? Nothing can be stronger or more challenging.

Careful, I hear Lana'thel is a real killer.

My guild is right there with yours Mr. Funk

So the glitch made it so that the minions weren't nearly as dangerous. That's not very fair then.

Bigeyez:
It's hard to understand if you've never messed with programming before.

What happens when these edges are destroyed is that their HP is set to 0. IE, the edges "die" and fall off from the rest of the platform. When the Saronite bombs are used by the rogue they put out aoe Siege damage. This Siege damage hits the edges even though they are dead, effectively sending the HP of the ledges into the negative. Since you obviously can't have something with negative HP the game effectively resets the destroyed edges back to 100% HP, which "ressurects" them and brings them back up to the rest of the platform.

In other words the bombs doing siege damage and pushing the edges into negative HP screws with the game and the only response the game has to that is to put the HP of the edges back at 100%.

I doubt this is the case. If Blizzard has to program every. piece. of. landscape. individually. to not come back after taking damage below 0 health, they are doing it wrong.

Then again, with how many bugs that show up in that game that are just plain weird, maybe they are setting attributes like this individually. That's some serious bloat, though.

Don't worry John my guild is still stuck on Rotface and Festergut too, well Rotface we finally downed Festergut.

Now, I don't know anything about the guild, seeing as I quit a while back, but this kind of thing bugs me. If they had gimped themselves and not used the glitch, someone else would have used the glitch and gotten the fame. It's not like they were the only ones using it. Punishing them for utilizing a tool is silly.

Meh I don't see the problem if you can find a way on your own to manipulate the game then you earned the right to use it until blizzard fixes it. It's not there fault that blizzard missed such a big bug although who would have thought a siege device would spawn floors instead of destroy them faster. This doesn't really effect anyone as it doesn't make the game unfair to other players because they killed a boss faster.

I always say if you can find a bug you earned the right to use it, it's the companies fault for not fixing it before release.

Randvek:

Bigeyez:
It's hard to understand if you've never messed with programming before.

What happens when these edges are destroyed is that their HP is set to 0. IE, the edges "die" and fall off from the rest of the platform. When the Saronite bombs are used by the rogue they put out aoe Siege damage. This Siege damage hits the edges even though they are dead, effectively sending the HP of the ledges into the negative. Since you obviously can't have something with negative HP the game effectively resets the destroyed edges back to 100% HP, which "ressurects" them and brings them back up to the rest of the platform.

In other words the bombs doing siege damage and pushing the edges into negative HP screws with the game and the only response the game has to that is to put the HP of the edges back at 100%.

I doubt this is the case. If Blizzard has to program every. piece. of. landscape. individually. to not come back after taking damage below 0 health, they are doing it wrong.

Then again, with how many bugs that show up in that game that are just plain weird, maybe they are setting attributes like this individually. That's some serious bloat, though.

No no no this doesn't happen to every piece of landscape, just specific destructible environments in raids. The same bug occured to the colliseum floor in ToC. These are environments where normally you shouldn't really be seeing any siege damage done at all, so Blizzard designed these 2 raids with destructible environments that are script driven. The Saronite Bombs just fudges that up by allowing payers to deal siege damager when they shouldn't be able too. Honestly it's an oversight by Blizzard. After the ToC bug happened they should have planned ahead for the Lich King fight and caught the same bug before it went live.

Edit: I forgot to mention that apparently since these things were script driven and designed to "die" on cue they have to be coded differently then the destructible environments you find in BGs or in Wintergrasp. All this information comes from Blue posts/MMO Champion by the way.

snowman6251:
I had read about this a while ago and checked out their guild site in curiosity. For progression runs you have to be available all the time. No ifs ands or buts, or you're out. This is why I quit WoW and later learned to resent it. The ridiculous demand for you to meet your guild's schedule, which can very well be absurd hours, no matter what.

That's only if you join the elitest twat guilds who can go suck one. There are plenty of other people like you (myself included) he have other things to do besides WoW, lives that are more important. that's why you find weekend guilds, people who do the raids at reasonable times and know when it's gone on too late and pick it back up again at another time. you might never get a "world first", as if that stuff actually matters, but you still get to go have fun.

I don't play WoW but these people sound like they're no better than the modders and glitchers in any online game and it ruins the game for everyone else. I see lots of "What's the big deal" comments about Blizzard overreacting, but I'd like to see other online game companies punishing people for exploiting glitches (Javelin or carepackage glitch in MW2 are the most recent examples where people are getting away with glitching)

oppp7:
How do these kinds of bugs exist? How badly would the programming be that a aoe attack heals the destructable floor(at least, that's how I interpretted it)?
It's people like that that ruined Guild Wars. They keep using cheap tactics and bugs to farm everything so that everyone else's real achievements look worse by comparison. That guild deserved it.

Blizzard doesnt let people test the final bosses of raids on the PTR, but they do allow people like Ensidia to test it, so god only knows how long they have actually known about this bug or not. And yes, having read the statement of their guild leader announcing their suspension, they are total douchebags.

snowman6251:
For progression runs you have to be available all the time. No ifs ands or buts, or you're out. This is why I quit WoW ...The ridiculous demand for you to meet your guild's schedule, which can very well be absurd hours, no matter what.

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's entirely possible to raid ICC on your own schedule. The trick is this: don't join a hardcore guild! Find a casual one and you can still see Arthas, eventually, while dedicating only 4-5 hours a week, and if you can't make it one week, you don't have to come.

One relatively new feature is the ability to extend raid lockouts. This means that even really long instances, like Ulduar or ICC, can be cleared over the course of several weeks instead of having to start fresh every Tuesday. I've used it a few times in Ulduar and it's been a great help in seeing later fights, once we had all the gear we wanted from earlier ones.

Of course, if you attitude is that you must be in a "progression" guild and that if you don't see it first, then its not worth seeing, then you're SOL.

Wait a minute. There's another article on the escapist saying that "Blood Legion" was the first guild to bear Arthas. I are confused nao?

Twad:

Once you have beaten a god/ultimate boss (like the lich king), what is the point in trying to continue a game? Nothing can be stronger or more challenging.

Neltharion disagrees with you.

I thought world first went to Blood Legion?

JaredXE:
I thought world first went to Blood Legion?

As I understand it, they beat the easy mode 10 man version of the boss first. Ensidia "beat" the hard mode 25 man version.

oneplus999:

snowman6251:
For progression runs you have to be available all the time. No ifs ands or buts, or you're out. This is why I quit WoW ...The ridiculous demand for you to meet your guild's schedule, which can very well be absurd hours, no matter what.

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's entirely possible to raid ICC on your own schedule. The trick is this: don't join a hardcore guild! Find a casual one and you can still see Arthas, eventually, while dedicating only 4-5 hours a week, and if you can't make it one week, you don't have to come.

One relatively new feature is the ability to extend raid lockouts. This means that even really long instances, like Ulduar or ICC, can be cleared over the course of several weeks instead of having to start fresh every Tuesday. I've used it a few times in Ulduar and it's been a great help in seeing later fights, once we had all the gear we wanted from earlier ones.

Of course, if you attitude is that you must be in a "progression" guild and that if you don't see it first, then its not worth seeing, then you're SOL.

I quit pre-Ulduar so I was unaware of that feature which I must say I am a fan of.

The problem was I could never really find much middle ground in my time playing. It was either "you will be on from 3-12 every weekday and all day weekends and you will like it bitch" or "aw dammit. Our healers aren't on today. Sorry guys no raid :( "

I actually managed to find a decent guild where I got to be pretty active raids and they had a relatively lenient schedule but it blew up over guild drama (I believe it started with us giving some big tier piece to a relatively new resto druid because that was best for the guild then he quit the next day leading to rage). After that I couldn't find any balance. It was either "be the best" or "wanna do another heroic dungeon".

The reason I quit was I did arena matches trying to get really pro for an entire weekend then Sunday came around and I was kinda like "fuck I am bored of this I'm going to go do something else" and I never logged in again.

This article is incredibly misinformed.

There was absolutely no way that Ensidia knew Saronite bombs from a single rogue were doing ANYTHING to change the fight. They knew that there was a bug. That's not very uncommon in a fight that was never released to the public before.

Making Ensidia look like the big bad criminals is really easy to do when you don't bother to state that there was no siege health bar on the Frozen Throne, so it could have easily just been an environmental effect from Ensidia's perspective, instead of bugged siege health bars.

Furthermore, the rogue who committed the "offense", Naihiko, uses Saronite Bombs during every possible encounter. Why? They're free damage. An additional 1k damage off the global cooldown every forty seconds is what makes Engineering the best profession for a rogue. It's not like he decided to throw Saronite Bombs just because, in whatever possible scenario this can occur, Ensidia hypothetically figured out that Saronite Bombs prevented the Frozen Throne from reconstructing. Parses on several other fights (http://ensidia.com/media/upload/saronitebomblogs/wol_rotface.jpg) (http://ensidia.com/media/upload/saronitebomblogs/wol_putricide.jpg) from that raid also indicate that the rogue uses bombs frequently in his rotation, adding to the evidence that Ensidia shouldn't be held accountable for something Blizzard should have forseen and prevented.

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