The Needles: "Crowd Contributed" Game Development: A Grim Dawn Breaks

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

The Needles: "Crowd Contributed" Game Development: A Grim Dawn Breaks

The makers of Titan Quest were surprised that so many fans were interested in funding their new game, Grim Dawn.

Read Full Article

Pre-ordering for indie games is getting bigger.

Unknown Worlds' Natural Selection 2, and Wolfire Games Overgrowth recently had a pre-order special on where if you bought one you also got the other. Neither is complete yet, but pre-orders will get access to the Alpha as well as access to mod tools for both games. (Unknown Worlds' SPARK editor is amazing)

Also, Hazardous Software's Achron, the RTS with time-travel, is also in an Alpha state and can be pre-ordered (And gets you access to the alpha. I bought into this one a couple of days ago and talk about a mind-twister. I haven't even been able to beat the tutorial levels yet..)

I just find it interesting they're all getting on the same bandwagon now.

So while I don't know whether I can really justify paying for yet another game that I won't be getting until some point in the future.. I'll certainly check it out.

I'm still debating Grim Dawn. I'm leaning towards it, though, because I like me some Titan Quest.

Kwil:
Also, Hazardous Software's Achron, the RTS with time-travel, is also in an Alpha state and can be pre-ordered (And gets you access to the alpha. I bought into this one a couple of days ago and talk about a mind-twister. I haven't even been able to beat the tutorial levels yet..)

I remember watching the demo/info videos for that a few months ago. It looks like a really neat idea, but it also looks like it's going to take a good deal of work to figure out the right way to present everything so it'll actually turn out well, whether it's a better way to hide/manage the complexity of it or a more intuitive/understandable way to display/interact with it. Having worked on some weird ideas like that before, I know how much of a pain that can be to sort out (and have had to at least temporarily give up on some), but I'm still hoping it works out in the end, because I like the idea, and they've made a decent amount of progress so far from just a good idea towards something actually workable as a game.

It is pretty amazing what a community can do when it bands together. Ir jus goes to prove the power of the fans does exist out there if you get the right people

Aye, I think it could be an excellent way for indie developers to make ends meet during, er, development. Indie games require a metric buttload less money to work, and there's also at least 22.7 metric buttloads less sallaries to pay (not sure I did the math right, there).

It's always saddened me that for all the real polish and quality that Titan Quest delivered, there were always jackasses saying that the game was shit because they'd played the cracked version, or heard from people who had.

I never had a SINGLE bug problem with Titan Quest. Sure, it was just a Diablo ripoff but it was fun and completely unpretentious, so I've no idea why it was considered to be such a failure. It's good to see a community continuing to thrive and get behind the developers in their next project.

Titan's quest fatal fault, IMO, was not having randomized levels. After one playthrough I didn't want to go back through again.

I had been thinking about buying Titan Quest for awhile when I saw it up for sale on steam. It's been said before, and I agree, that it's no diablo. However, I experienced no bugs or glitches, and found it a generally enjoyable game. If you're just looking for some mindless dungeon-crawling and loot-whoring, you can do a lot worse than Titan Quest.

Titan Quest was still pretty awesome, and its good to see a group of people getting together to help the smaller devs.

Good article :)

-JB

Grim Dawn sounds awesome.

I'm gonna buy it!

I'm seriously amazed there's no Wikipedia entries for Grim Dawn, Crate Entertainment, or Arthur Bruno. I usually rely on Wiki much more than the flashy game sites; much easier to get to the pertinent information and avoid the hype machine.

The site isn't too flashy though, and the game sounds interesting.

I loved Titan's Quest and Immortal Throne, but I've never heard of Grim Dawn.

Gonna put in my pre-order as soon as I get home.

I actually stayed away from Titan Quest for a stupid reason: the name. Seriously, it was such a bland, generic name that I figured the game had to be some bland, generic RPG or something. When I actually played it it quickly became one of the funnest PC games I've played in recent years.

Anyway, glad to see that Grim Dawn is full speed ahead.

The Random One:
Aye, I think it could be an excellent way for indie developers to make ends meet during, er, development. Indie games require a metric buttload less money to work, and there's also at least 22.7 metric buttloads less sallaries to pay (not sure I did the math right, there).

My math comes to 18.5 metric buttloads less salary to pay, but it could have been due to differences in calculation. Did you include payroll tax? And did you include benefits like healthcare in salary? That may be where we differed.

In my utopia in which everyone pirates 100% and the entertainment industry no longer exists, this is basically how new culture would be made, along with funding from foundations and other such things.

dochmbi:
In my utopia in which everyone pirates 100% and the entertainment industry no longer exists, this is basically how new culture would be made, along with funding from foundations and other such things.

To think, somewhere out there Mark Helprin is looking for you.

Honestly, your utopia isn't feasible, at all. If everyone stole everything then there would be no innovation at all. We would be in a cultural backslide. No one would have any incentive to learn to program because you couldn't make a living at it. Hell, if everyone stole THIS system wouldn't work. They would simply wait for this to be released and then steal it.

Now, I'm not saying you're trolling, but posting your advocacy of this in a thread where theft fucking killed these guy's jobs once before is in incredibly poor taste. Incredibly poor taste.

I'd love to see "crowd support" become a more common phenomenon among game developers, but as Bruno pointed out, the likelihood of a fully crowd-funded game is very slim. There's just too much money required, even for a small-scale project, and for a completely unknown start-up with no history, it's going to be magnitudes of order more difficult to bring in any preorders at all. Take away the Grim Day preorders placed by the Titan Quest community and what have you got? (I honestly don't know, but I bet it ain't much.)

Speaking of Titan Quest, it didn't "bomb" in the classic sense - combined, TQ and the expansion sold more than a million copies and according to Bruno actually turned a bit of a profit for THQ. In most conventional measure it was actually something of a success and the fact that Iron Lore failed anyway is a real indictment of the studio system. But that's a tory for another day.

Starke:
It's always saddened me that for all the real polish and quality that Titan Quest delivered, there were always jackasses saying that the game was shit because they'd played the cracked version, or heard from people who had.

Imo it proves that the "download before buying" group that everybody denies that exists at all because "all" pirates never pay for "anything" represents a sizeable target demographic, if you at least show them a product worth buying. They get the game, they see the game is shit, they cancel their preorders. Simple as that. That's not their fault for being "jackasses" for not wanting to get ripped off by false promises, that's the developer's fault for not realizing showing half your potential customers that the game is shit will obviously deter the other half from buying it.

I pre-ordered a while back, when they first put the option up.

One of the other great things about this project is that you get the impression they are really listening to our ideas on the development so far. I can't wait to get my hands on the alpha/beta.

Could be interesting, but the story is "Slash 'n' Loot 101" cliche fodder and I'm still playing Torchlight.

Titan Quest and its expansion i think can be bought now for like $10 each or $10 total on steam. Its a good place holder if you really need to get your diablo style gameplay fix. This game or Torchlight XD

I love the game and actually started with a cracked copy. even then i didnt get many bugs. so really have no idea where all the negative press came from. When steam had their package sales over the holiday i picked up the 'whole' game \o/

p.s. So basically you have effectively turned players into investors!

I think I would only really be interested in this if the option were given to have more input on the content of the game itself. Then, it would be worth offering up some shekels.

Asehujiko:

Starke:
It's always saddened me that for all the real polish and quality that Titan Quest delivered, there were always jackasses saying that the game was shit because they'd played the cracked version, or heard from people who had.

Imo it proves that the "download before buying" group that everybody denies that exists at all because "all" pirates never pay for "anything" represents a sizable target demographic, if you at least show them a product worth buying. They get the game, they see the game is shit, they cancel their preorders. Simple as that. That's not their fault for being "jackasses" for not wanting to get ripped off by false promises, that's the developer's fault for not realizing showing half your potential customers that the game is shit will obviously deter the other half from buying it.

Er, what? There's a part of your post that makes sense, and then there's the part you wrote. This proves the "download before you buy" group are full of shit. They cracked the game poorly, and then took out their frustrations on the poor crack instead of the code, killing the game. So it's completely their fault for being "jackasses" because no one else is being one.

As for not wanting to get ripped off by false promises, I could respect that except for one minor detail. THERE WAS A GODDAMN DEMO. All of those individuals who say "I'm going to download this first, and see if I like it, and if I don't I'm just not going to give them my money." Well, here's where we prove they're all completely full of shit. The game was available to them, for free, from the developers, and they chose instead to download a cracked version. To what end? Because they never had any intention of buying the game. They didn't want a taste, they wanted the whole thing. Maybe later they might have realized they were feeling guilty. But in the mean time they're hypocritical little whiny bastards who want everything right now, because, at heart, they're two year olds.

This is a lot like jacking a car from someone, wrecking it, and then saying it's the car company's fault for not making their car available to you to test, when you can (in theory) test drive the damn thing. (And before you start, don't even begin to get into the piracy isn't theft bullshit, or my theft won't affect these big corporate types. This bullshit cost them their jobs and their company. This wasn't a victim-less crime, THESE PEOPLE were the victims. And you are at least an enabler if not one of the perpetrators.)

DTWolfwood:
Titan Quest and its expansion i think can be bought now for like $10 each or $10 total on steam. Its a good place holder if you really need to get your diablo style gameplay fix. This game or Torchlight XD

I love the game and actually started with a cracked copy. even then i didnt get many bugs. so really have no idea where all the negative press came from. When steam had their package sales over the holiday i picked up the 'whole' game \o/

p.s. So basically you have effectively turned players into investors!

The bad press comes from the initial prerelease crack. (There may have been more refined versions later.) This initial crack sucessfully bypassed the initial diskcheck, and partially bypassed the internal periodic security checks. Except, it didn't do the second correctly. So the game would get to a checkpoint in game, and the security check would fail, and (as I understand it) the game would try to call to the DRM, which was gone, resulting in a CTD. Ironically this system seems to be gone from the STEAM version, because it could result in some ruberbanding in the retail releases.

So here's a question: Given that Titan Quest suffered as a result of piracy as Starke explained, what do we think about the prospects of Grim Dawn? Will people show it, and Crate, a little more consideration because it's a small, self-financed (with a heapin' helpin' of community support, of course) indie game?

Andy Chalk:
So here's a question: Given that Titan Quest suffered as a result of piracy as Starke explained, what do we think about the prospects of Grim Dawn? Will people show it, and Crate, a little more consideration because it's a small, self-financed (with a heapin' helpin' of community support, of course) indie game?

Personally, I hope so. Titan Quest had enough press attention at launch that the game could have done very well, and then the pirates. In this case, the lack of widespread attention should keep piracy at low levels until after release, preventing them from shaping the general perception of the game's quality.

It could go horribly wrong, somebody could get a build from an early beta, post it out there, and tank the game before it gets released, but I really hope that doesn't happen.

I am working off an assumption here:

The piracy in the case of Titan Quest kicked in before release, so (as I mentioned) the pirates started shaping perceptions of the game before legitimate players could get their hands on it. They spewed vitriolic comments as frequently as they could and by the time genuine players could play the game (a couple days later), a huge chunk of their user base had been scared off (myself included).

My assumption is that the specific danger that Grim Dawn faces is identical, a prerelease s***storm derailing legitimate consumers. If the game gets released before we start seeing forum posts about a sub-par version floating around they'll be fine. If we do see a repeat, I'm not sure anything can salvage it.

I'm sorry I'm having a hard time extracting the piracy issues from Grim Dawn's chances. A lot of that is because of how it has become integral to the debate frame of Titan Quest.

Starke:
The piracy in the case of Titan Quest kicked in before release, so (as I mentioned) the pirates started shaping perceptions of the game before legitimate players could get their hands on it. They spewed vitriolic comments as frequently as they could and by the time genuine players could play the game (a couple days later), a huge chunk of their user base had been scared off (myself included).

My assumption is that the specific danger that Grim Dawn faces is identical, a prerelease s***storm derailing legitimate consumers. If the game gets released before we start seeing forum posts about a sub-par version floating around they'll be fine. If we do see a repeat, I'm not sure anything can salvage it.

One little tiny detail that you missed in your accusatory rant against me: There was hidden DRM on TQ that INTENTIONALLY made the game crash when played by anybody unlucky to have it trigger on them(and that's quite a few legal customers, judging by the amount of posts on the tech support that show people holding up their game boxes next to a screen with the drm induced error on it), apparently in the belief that pirates have no vocal outlet about their findings. Personally, I trust day 0 reviews from pirates more then the "professional" ones because the average pirate isn't being bribed by a publisher to lie about how good a product is.

TQ wasn't killed by pirates, TQ was killed by retarded decisions regarding pirates by the developers who spent more time pissing off non or potential customers then pleasing their current customers.

Asehujiko:

Starke:
The piracy in the case of Titan Quest kicked in before release, so (as I mentioned) the pirates started shaping perceptions of the game before legitimate players could get their hands on it. They spewed vitriolic comments as frequently as they could and by the time genuine players could play the game (a couple days later), a huge chunk of their user base had been scared off (myself included).

My assumption is that the specific danger that Grim Dawn faces is identical, a prerelease s***storm derailing legitimate consumers. If the game gets released before we start seeing forum posts about a sub-par version floating around they'll be fine. If we do see a repeat, I'm not sure anything can salvage it.

One little tiny detail that you missed in your accusatory rant against me: There was hidden DRM on TQ that INTENTIONALLY made the game crash when played by anybody unlucky to have it trigger on them(and that's quite a few legal customers, judging by the amount of posts on the tech support that show people holding up their game boxes next to a screen with the drm induced error on it), apparently in the belief that pirates have no vocal outlet about their findings. Personally, I trust day 0 reviews from pirates more then the "professional" ones because the average pirate isn't being bribed by a publisher to lie about how good a product is.

TQ wasn't killed by pirates, TQ was killed by retarded decisions regarding pirates by the developers who spent more time pissing off non or potential customers then pleasing their current customers.

Yes, I do know there were false positives. I'm willing to seriously bet that there weren't many false positives before day 1.(While we're on the subject, I have serious doubts as to the veracity of your claim about loads of threads of people with boxed copies standing in front of the monitor.) Which is when the word of mouth got started. Or, you can read what the creative director wrote. I'm willing to bet that said developer is actually better versed on the effects of piracy on the industry than you are.

Michael Finch:
One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of shit on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.

One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

The entire post is here.

Starke:

Asehujiko:

Starke:
The piracy in the case of Titan Quest kicked in before release, so (as I mentioned) the pirates started shaping perceptions of the game before legitimate players could get their hands on it. They spewed vitriolic comments as frequently as they could and by the time genuine players could play the game (a couple days later), a huge chunk of their user base had been scared off (myself included).

My assumption is that the specific danger that Grim Dawn faces is identical, a prerelease s***storm derailing legitimate consumers. If the game gets released before we start seeing forum posts about a sub-par version floating around they'll be fine. If we do see a repeat, I'm not sure anything can salvage it.

One little tiny detail that you missed in your accusatory rant against me: There was hidden DRM on TQ that INTENTIONALLY made the game crash when played by anybody unlucky to have it trigger on them(and that's quite a few legal customers, judging by the amount of posts on the tech support that show people holding up their game boxes next to a screen with the drm induced error on it), apparently in the belief that pirates have no vocal outlet about their findings. Personally, I trust day 0 reviews from pirates more then the "professional" ones because the average pirate isn't being bribed by a publisher to lie about how good a product is.

TQ wasn't killed by pirates, TQ was killed by retarded decisions regarding pirates by the developers who spent more time pissing off non or potential customers then pleasing their current customers.

Yes, I do know there were false positives. I'm willing to seriously bet that there weren't many false positives before day 1.(While we're on the subject, I have serious doubts as to the veracity of your claim about loads of threads of people with boxed copies standing in front of the monitor.) Which is when the word of mouth got started. Or, you can read what the creative director wrote. I'm willing to bet that said developer is actually better versed on the effects of piracy on the industry than you are.

Michael Finch:
One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of shit on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.

One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

The entire post is here.

I am aware of what the developers say, that doesn't change the fact that their "strategy" of deterring piracy(which is something COMPLETELY different then promoting buying) is retarded. Pirates get to play the game first, pirates see that the game doesn't work, they tell everybody that the game doesn't work and the game sells the same as every other game that doesn't work. The fact that the game is only broken for pirates doesn't change anything. I didn't buy TQ because i disagree with retarded DRM schemes that may or may not backfire on me and I can't get any support over because if that happens, I'm obviously a pirate and from the looks of how few people bought it after IL revealed that the game sucking was the result of DRM, I am not the only person with the same concerns.

You can prevent bank robbers by putting land mines around your building and they might stop one of them the night before the grand opening but if your potential customers find a bloody corpse in front of your door the following day, they still won't go to that bank anymore. And the person to blame for that is the idiot who put the land mines there. Without them, the bank might be robbed, which doesn't matter since it doesn't hold any money yet anyway. And announcing later that the mines only target people wearing balaclava's does not make the idea of mining the place any less stupid. Especially not if the mines keep exploding under some of your few remaining customers because their style of facial hair resembles a mask too much while every single criminal in town can freely walk in and out of the vault by taking the back door.

Asehujiko:
I am aware of what the developers say, that doesn't change the fact that their "strategy" of deterring piracy(which is something COMPLETELY different then promoting buying) is retarded. Pirates get to play the game first, pirates see that the game doesn't work, they tell everybody that the game doesn't work and the game sells the same as every other game that doesn't work. The fact that the game is only broken for pirates doesn't change anything. I didn't buy TQ because i disagree with retarded DRM schemes that may or may not backfire on me and I can't get any support over because if that happens, I'm obviously a pirate and from the looks of how few people bought it after IL revealed that the game sucking was the result of DRM, I am not the only person with the same concerns.

You can prevent bank robbers by putting land mines around your building and they might stop one of them the night before the grand opening but if your potential customers find a bloody corpse in front of your door the following day, they still won't go to that bank anymore. And the person to blame for that is the idiot who put the land mines there. Without them, the bank might be robbed, which doesn't matter since it doesn't hold any money yet anyway. And announcing later that the mines only target people wearing balaclava's does not make the idea of mining the place any less stupid. Especially not if the mines keep exploding under some of your few remaining customers because their style of facial hair resembles a mask too much while every single criminal in town can freely walk in and out of the vault by taking the back door.

I started to compose a response, but, it boils down to one thing. Please, don't use the term "retarded" as a prejorative. It's insenstivive, and it's a good way to get yourself banned on here.

But please, don't come back to this thread. You already admitted you're part of the reason that Iron Lore went down the tubes. And I honestly don't give a shit what moral high ground you try to generate for yourself. You stole these people's hard work out from under them once before, and you don't even have the decency to admit "yeah, I fucked these people's lives up." Instead you're stuck on a whole "it's their fault that I didn't buy it."

Asehujiko:
Imo it proves that the "download before buying" group that everybody denies that exists at all because "all" pirates never pay for "anything" represents a sizeable target demographic, if you at least show them a product worth buying. They get the game, they see the game is shit, they cancel their preorders. Simple as that. That's not their fault for being "jackasses" for not wanting to get ripped off by false promises, that's the developer's fault for not realizing showing half your potential customers that the game is shit will obviously deter the other half from buying it.

Except that the only people that said Titan Quest was shit BEFORE THE GAME WAS RELEASED were the people who had pirated it and used a poorly made crack for it. I heard on the PC Gamer Podcast that people had the balls to post these CTD problem on the official forums weeks before the game was even available. When asked by Iron Lore devs for permission to examine their systems to find the problem the people complaining quickly shut up and stopped posting, if they had nothing to hide...like say a no DVD crack they weren't supposed to be using on game they shouldn't have even had then what would be wrong with letting the devs take a quick peek at their machine to see what could be causing these problems?

Oh, oh! I have the answer, they pirated the game and were talking shit about it being buggy because their poorly written crack didn't disable all the DRM. So again it's nothing to do with Iron Lore having been bad developers and making a bad game. It's about cheap people trying to get something for free and bitching when their theft gets thwarted because they didn't do their research properly.

Starke:
I started to compose a response, but, it boils down to one thing. Please, don't use the term "retarded" as a prejorative. It's insenstivive, and it's a good way to get yourself banned on here.

But please, don't come back to this thread. You already admitted you're part of the reason that Iron Lore went down the tubes. And I honestly don't give a shit what moral high ground you try to generate for yourself. You stole these people's hard work out from under them once before, and you don't even have the decency to admit "yeah, I fucked these people's lives up." Instead you're stuck on a whole "it's their fault that I didn't buy it."

So your entire defense comes down to pulling facts out of your ass and deciding that based on those facts I am inherently wrong and unfit to discuss this? I didn't pirate the game before release, in fact I only heard about it when IL got in trouble over their gross mismanagement of their DRM and public relations and made a mental note to add TQ to my list of games i refuse to buy because of the DRM. If that somehow ruins somebody's life, they shouldn't have based their entire livelihood on me living under a rock when it comes to knowledge of DRM.

tkaStryc9:
Except that the only people that said Titan Quest was shit BEFORE THE GAME WAS RELEASED were the people who had pirated it and used a poorly made crack for it. I heard on the PC Gamer Podcast that people had the balls to post these CTD problem on the official forums weeks before the game was even available. When asked by Iron Lore devs for permission to examine their systems to find the problem the people complaining quickly shut up and stopped posting, if they had nothing to hide...like say a no DVD crack they weren't supposed to be using on game they shouldn't have even had then what would be wrong with letting the devs take a quick peek at their machine to see what could be causing these problems?

Oh, oh! I have the answer, they pirated the game and were talking shit about it being buggy because their poorly written crack didn't disable all the DRM. So again it's nothing to do with Iron Lore having been bad developers and making a bad game. It's about cheap people trying to get something for free and bitching when their theft gets thwarted because they didn't do their research properly.

The average person doesn't think "hey, this game is a buggy piece of shit, that's definitely the result of a cracking group screwing up completely despite flawlessly cracking and day 0 ing hundreds of games, some of them even using starforce and not caused by a completely unheard of studio putting out a bad game despite that being a very common problem". Instead, they think "Man I'm glad I pirated this game before buying it because that would have been a ripoff, better warn everybody who has this on preorder".

To use some numbers:
You have 100.000 potential pirates and 10.000 preorders. The game ships with secret drm that makes the game appear to suck. 10.000 of those pirates have good enough internet to warrant a day 0 download. They play the game, they find out that the game sucks(and have no way of knowing that this is because of the drm and not the game itself because the drm is still a secret and thus have to assume that it's the game itself), they warn the rest and uninstall the game. This has the effect of making the remaining 90.000 pirates value their up/down ratios more then having a (to their knowledge) broken game and causes 9.000 legal customers to cancel their preorders based on the reports from (to their knowledge) people who got it shipped early or are in a different time zone. In the end, only 1.000 people buy the game. None of the pirates buy it at a later date because 1. They played the game and it sucked. 2. the developer antagonized them by deliberately pissing them off with no benefit whatsoever to either themselves or the legal customers, apparently just for the sake of being a dick. Developer throws a hissy fit over how it's all somebody elses fault while another cracking group fixes the mistakes of their predecessor and releases a working crack. Everybody who checks the game in the future downloads that instead of risking the drm giving them a false positive.

SD method
You have 100.000 potential pirates and 10.000 preorders. The game ships without any form of DRM. 10.000 of those pirates have good enough internet to warrant a day 0 download. They play the game, they find out that the game is awesome and tell the rest. The remaining 90.000 pirates download the game too and the amount of preorders increases to 15.000, which may be from the additional word of mouth generated by the pirates or actual pirates buying the game, impossible to tell. Game gets released, 15.000 people buy the game. Constant patches are released, customers stay and convert more non buyers into buyers. Game sells about 20.000 cases total. Some pirates convert at a later date because they want the patches too. Developer now has an established fanbase and the entire pirate community acting as a giant advertising machine.

The same pirates, the same customers, different drm, radically different outcomes.

Asehujiko:

Starke:
I started to compose a response, but, it boils down to one thing. Please, don't use the term "retarded" as a prejorative. It's insenstivive, and it's a good way to get yourself banned on here.

But please, don't come back to this thread. You already admitted you're part of the reason that Iron Lore went down the tubes. And I honestly don't give a shit what moral high ground you try to generate for yourself. You stole these people's hard work out from under them once before, and you don't even have the decency to admit "yeah, I fucked these people's lives up." Instead you're stuck on a whole "it's their fault that I didn't buy it."

So your entire defense comes down to pulling facts out of your ass and deciding that based on those facts I am inherently wrong and unfit to discuss this? I didn't pirate the game before release, in fact I only heard about it when IL got in trouble over their gross mismanagement of their DRM and public relations and made a mental note to add TQ to my list of games i refuse to buy because of the DRM. If that somehow ruins somebody's life, they shouldn't have based their entire livelihood on me living under a rock when it comes to knowledge of DRM.

No, it's because, according to your own statements you're a pirate. Except you're not, and it was poor word choice on your part. Normally I'd appologize, but you're own attitude has ensure'd I'll make an exception. You're not a pirate, you're an appologist.

Asehujiko:

The average person doesn't think "hey, this game is a buggy piece of shit, that's definitely the result of a cracking group screwing up completely despite flawlessly cracking and day 0 ing hundreds of games, some of them even using starforce and not caused by a completely unheard of studio putting out a bad game despite that being a very common problem". Instead, they think "Man I'm glad I pirated this game before buying it because that would have been a ripoff, better warn everybody who has this on preorder".

To use some numbers:
You have 100.000 potential pirates and 10.000 preorders. The game ships with secret drm that makes the game appear to suck. 10.000 of those pirates have good enough internet to warrant a day 0 download. They play the game, they find out that the game sucks(and have no way of knowing that this is because of the drm and not the game itself because the drm is still a secret and thus have to assume that it's the game itself), they warn the rest and uninstall the game. This has the effect of making the remaining 90.000 pirates value their up/down ratios more then having a (to their knowledge) broken game and causes 9.000 legal customers to cancel their preorders based on the reports from (to their knowledge) people who got it shipped early or are in a different time zone. In the end, only 1.000 people buy the game. None of the pirates buy it at a later date because 1. They played the game and it sucked. 2. the developer antagonized them by deliberately pissing them off with no benefit whatsoever to either themselves or the legal customers, apparently just for the sake of being a dick. Developer throws a hissy fit over how it's all somebody elses fault while another cracking group fixes the mistakes of their predecessor and releases a working crack. Everybody who checks the game in the future downloads that instead of risking the drm giving them a false positive.

SD method
You have 100.000 potential pirates and 10.000 preorders. The game ships without any form of DRM. 10.000 of those pirates have good enough internet to warrant a day 0 download. They play the game, they find out that the game is awesome and tell the rest. The remaining 90.000 pirates download the game too and the amount of preorders increases to 15.000, which may be from the additional word of mouth generated by the pirates or actual pirates buying the game, impossible to tell. Game gets released, 15.000 people buy the game. Constant patches are released, customers stay and convert more non buyers into buyers. Game sells about 20.000 cases total. Some pirates convert at a later date because they want the patches too. Developer now has an established fanbase and the entire pirate community acting as a giant advertising machine.

The same pirates, the same customers, different drm, radically different outcomes.

You're right the average person doesn't think, "Hey, this game is a buggy piece of shit, that's definitely the result of a cracking group screwing up." because the people that pirated the game and then wrote negative reviews because their defective crack triggered DRM that wouldn't have done anything had they purchased the game and played it legally didn't bother to mention they pirated the game and used a crack in their negative review of the game.

So again, the whole crux of your argument comes down to saying that the game sucks not based on it having bad gameplay or bad story or poor level design. Your argument is that the game sucks because it has DRM programmed into it that can only be triggered by using crack to get around the disc check, which you wouldn't have to do if you had purchased a copy of the game legally. Again I point to the story from the Iron Lore devs about people bitching about the game being buggy weeks before it was even released...you know, before it was on store shelves, so obviously the people bitching were people who had pirated and cracked the game.

Using StarForce in your argument doesn't really help all that much because StarForce isn't hidden DRM, you know it's there because it installs the drivers right in front of your face, makes you reboot, then checks the disc every time you start the game. Yes StarForce is horrible DRM, I've had more experience with it than I care for. StarForce has been proven to physically damage hardware, cause OS problems, prevent games from being played\installed. The DRM in Titan Quest was never linked to any such things, if triggered it simply caused the game crash out, which if you had purchased the game in the first place wouldn't have happened.

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here