Goth Mercenaries

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I don't think there's really any reason to complain that he doesn't pay attention to multiplayer, because the list of things Yahtzee does not review is colossal. He reviews the single-player components of a game, and that's fair enough. He's always upfront about that when it's relevant (like with Borderlands), and it's not like he's ever pretended to give any kind of objective opinion. He reviews a game and says what he likes (or, sometimes, dislikes) about it.

/snicker
YOU HAVEN'T ACTUALLY PLAYER!?

=D

What I find is that MMO's actually break immersion more than anything else; while the world is indeed living and breathing, it's not so much a world as a sort of meta-world. A meta-world where everyone runs as fast as they can at all times, speaks only in acronyms, and does all the same things you're doing (even though you were under the impression you had received an exclusive request to retrieve the Amber Starstone from the Harpy Nest for that fellow back in town). Nations, settlements, even the very citizens of the world are all completely static, and no matter what you do, you have this niggling awareness that nothing will ever, ever change in this world for better or worse.

Personally I'd prefer MMO's with more realistic restrictions on player movement - enforced walking and no willy nilly hopping - but usually that results in agonizingly slow travel. Perhaps if MMO worlds were designed a little more content-dense?

"If a game is only fun when you and your friends do it together then that's a review of your friends, not the game." <-- exactly the point I was making in the Borderlands review comments.

@A1: making a long-lasting impression doesn't make something great, it makes it memorable. Something can be memorable for being terrible just as easily as for being great, or, as in FF7's case, for being a sort of landmark: not great, not bad, but a breakthrough into RPG-ville for enough players to change the playing field in a dramatic fashion. It's a gateway game. Or was. I dunno if new players are still picking that up to get an introduction to RPGs these days. Somehow I doubt it but I suppose it's possible.

A curious parallel between MMOGs and TF2, which, while an MMOG doesn't seem like one to me.

I suppose that should I ever play an MMOG (which seems unlikely) I would likely loop in under the lone wolf style player. I'd much rather just play oblivion.

Yeah, I never got anti-social people on MMOs...its like, what is the point?

Borderlands has a cheat gun, it is the revolver that shoots 7 shots every trigger pull and does 60-80 damage per shot. It is extra cheap in the hands of the sniper dude with all his crit and pistol powers. It is a nearly a 1 hit kill on any non-badass monster.

You can easily kill the boss with that. And yes the borderlands end boss sucks butt, but just pretend the Rakk hive is the real boss.

Well, Borderlands was an interesting game to start with. But As I played on It looked like many games I knew, but combined. Logically, I thought it should be equally as good as those games, if so. But unfortunately it wasn't. It did have the replayability factor inline with an obsessive man playing tetris but after one time, it just ceased to be fun.

Games that I believe done the replayability factor right are Left4Dead, and Team Fortress 2. I went through all the developer commentary that I was given, Valve learn from their mistakes, and listen to the consumers just as much as any other game developer would, or should.

If you go through the borderlands DLC, they try to fix a few problems. Such as giving you a bank.

It's funny how you have perfect grammar throughout your entire rant, and then the one word you misspelled (played, not player) is bolded.

I loved the mention of goths, it's so true.

Shjade:
"If a game is only fun when you and your friends do it together then that's a review of your friends, not the game." <-- exactly the point I was making in the Borderlands review comments.

That's not true. There's no fun in playing hockey single-player... poker, settlers, chess, monopoly... and to be honest there are better or worse games to play with friends. Some aren't enjoyable at all because the mechanics just suck the fun out of doing anything with 'em.

Jaredin:
Yeah, I never got anti-social people on MMOs...its like, what is the point?

lol some people actually like MMO-style gameplay on its own merits, regardless of if it's in a MMO or not.

Yahtzee Croshaw:

Because as angsty loners it's important that you pay attention to us.

Actually, I just enjoy the humor of your reviews. I don't mind if you make fun of games I enjoy; I prefer you trash every game rather than rave about a game that is very poorly made. However, Borderlands is a good deal better crafted than some of the games you have raved about.
Hey, at least there weren't any QTEs right?

I love "Fairy Feller's Last Stroke" but I always end up looking for Waldo when I'm viewing it.

You can honestly say whatever you want about borderlands. The only people still acting like borderlands is good are are the same people who think 40/25 man raiding is fun in wow. The right group of people will make even the dullest activity fun.

The fact of borderlands is there is nothing you can do (beyond extensive modding) to make that game even the slightest bit challenging. I finally gave up on it after plugging four instances of it into a lan game and finding solo-play even less challenging.

rembrandtqeinstein:
Borderlands has a cheat gun, it is the revolver that shoots 7 shots every trigger pull and does 60-80 damage per shot. It is extra cheap in the hands of the sniper dude with all his crit and pistol powers. It is a nearly a 1 hit kill on any non-badass monster.

You can easily kill the boss with that. And yes the borderlands end boss sucks butt, but just pretend the Rakk hive is the real boss.

Pretty much anything with an orange name is a cheat gun. The exceptions being the ammo-regen or extended clip weapons.

When I finally quit I had a max level hellfire smg that did so much over time damage, I only had to actually shoot normals down to 75% health and badasses to 40%. With a full game.

Not to mention the boss is pretty easy once you realize you can shoot off it's tentacles to stop the cheap attacks... and that the massive eye damage is a lie.

Yes, Valve do come off as obsessive artists, in a fashion.
Still fun to play their "masterpiece" or one of the many, anyway.

Shame that the updates have turned you off of it so much, though, Yahtzee.

"Valve's work with Team Fortress 2 reminds me of a patricidal Victorian fuckhead."-Yathzee

best line ever

The wanting to play alone but around other people is pretty much my take on the singleplayer/multiplayer dichotomy. I enjoy hearing the chatter and seeing other players move about, but I don't necessarily want to play with them. I like my singleplayer experiences.

Fable 2 was neat in that regard because I could see other players moving about, and I could hear their voices over the game chat, but I was on my own quests just passing through town. I didn't really enjoy the game overall, but that aspect of it was really interesting for me.

Did they do the updates on the 360 version? I don't think they did- Yahtzee, if you can get over console controls, you could try playing there. And if that doesn't work, you could try the PS3 version, though I'm not sure if the community would be as large there.

Note: Even though Yahtzee is actually Anglo-Australian, he reminds me of the Sniper.

I can't really add anything to this conversation. I've never played Borderlanders and don't intend to. I also have not played TF2, which I'd heard was good, but never got around to playing. A shame what happened to it with the updates, though. It's kind of like what George Lucas did with the Star Wars Special Edition, only Valve didn't make tons of money reselling the game to people (so, at least Valve is a step above Mr. Franchisacide).

I play Guild Wars and 2moons as single player. It's not really that I like playing alone; it's a combination of impatience to find a group, fear of looking like a noob in front of people, and a hatred of metagamers.
But I like the MMO part because it does feel more alive, at least in the outposts. And besides, what's the point of getting prestigous stuff when no one else can see it?

Just to repeat myself (again), all games must stand up on its single-player.

This presupposes that the primary purpose of every game is to entertain a single person. This is demonstrably false. Many games cannot be played meaningfully with a single person. For example, most card games, board games, pen and paper RPGs, and even sports would all be impossible to play as designed without other people. If judged as a single-player experience, they would not even qualify as valid games. Why should video games be any different?

If a game is only fun when you and your friends do it together then that's a review of your friends, not the game.

Certainly there's a subjective nature to enjoyment of a game. In a single-player experience, you're the only variable, and your bias is presumed to be a major contributing factor in your opinion. In a multiplayer experience, every other player is a variable as well and can change the final impression. In that sense, you are correct. But the game plays the same role in the formula regardless of the number of players. If judging a multiplayer game was *only* judging your friends, then we would like all multiplayer games equally from Smash Bros to Poker to D&D.

EDIT: reworded second response

Abedeus:
"Complain, complain, no nerdrage is bad, complain, TF2 complains, CONTENT IS BAD COMPLAINS".

Seriously? You complain that they've kept the game healthy and fresh after over two years? That they keep giving players new, fun maps, new weapons to promote different styles and roles for classes?

Have you seen TF2 after one of these updates? It's much better now as you can just get the weapons randomly through normal gameplay, as any class, or join an achievement server, but it was horrible before.

ForgottenPr0digy:
"Valve's work with Team Fortress 2 reminds me of a patricidal Victorian fuckhead."-Yathzee

best line ever

Yahtzee makes a good point... With so many mods and updates out there, I personally no longer find some games enjoyable.

If Valve wants to do something... why not create a TF3 or Portal 2?

the one time i tryed tf2 almost everyone was a sniper or a demoman

And I couldn't play as Medic then because I didn't want to seem like some conformist
I can totally relate.
It's Kinda like how when I started playing SF I barely touched characters like Ryu and Ken. But favoured stranger, less commonly used characters, like Zangief & Dhalsim.

I always want to have some defining characteristic that makes me stand out from the crowd, and so do alot of other people.
...
fuck.

At least diablo 1\2 had an interesting story. good npcs to talk when you returned from the slaughter. same thing happened to me in dungean siege, and borderlands, its just empty.

I guess there's some amount of fanboy-ism in me since I'm registering here just to comment about the Borderlands review. I bought Borderlands and 3 of my friends did too, and we played it all the way through to the end and had a lot of fun the whole way. Yes there were annoyances, like too many quests and crummy menus, but the ability for the 4 of us to play together outweighed all that. I should also add that I am not really an FPS fan, and my friends aren't really RPG fans, yet we all found something to enjoy in the game that kept us at it.

I guess my point is that when you don't play a game on its terms, then you shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't satisfy you. And when you say things like "a game must stand up in single player", then it may not be the best idea for your credibility to mention in the same article that you love a game like TF2. A game that has NO single player component!

I completely agree with Yahtzee on TF2 updates, I played two games against a Scout who used the sandman bat to knock me woozy and I haven't played the game since, that knocks you unconscious for way too long, unless they fixed that, I doubt I'll play the game again either

xscoot:

Abedeus:
"Complain, complain, no nerdrage is bad, complain, TF2 complains, CONTENT IS BAD COMPLAINS".

Seriously? You complain that they've kept the game healthy and fresh after over two years? That they keep giving players new, fun maps, new weapons to promote different styles and roles for classes?

Have you seen TF2 after one of these updates? It's much better now as you can just get the weapons randomly through normal gameplay, as any class, or join an achievement server, but it was horrible before.

Yes, in fact I've been with every update since the... Heavy update. So I've seen Scouts, Snipers, Spies, Soldiers, Demomen... and it was over after a week or two, TOPS.

flabslapper:
I completely agree with Yahtzee on TF2 updates, I played two games against a Scout who used the sandman bat to knock me woozy and I haven't played the game since, that knocks you unconscious for way too long, unless they fixed that, I doubt I'll play the game again either

Sandman was nerfed to oblivion and basically nobody uses it. In fact, I just crafted all my scout weapons because I didn't need them - the basic setup was better.

I have to say, I agree; I've always been an advocate of games being predominantly single-player oriented, and find that when games have both components, the single player campaign often feels diluted due to the amount of focus placed on multiplayer (prime examples of this are Halo 3 and Modern Warfare 2). Some people simply don't want to play multiplayer. I avoid multiplayer on Xbox Live like it's the plague; if it's not twelve year old boys with unbroken voices sqealing in your ear about how much you suck, it's the racists and bigots spouting crap through their microphones (and there's evidence of it on YouTube). I do play on TF2 on PC quite often, simply because the community's generally more pleasant, the gameplay isn't always frustrating, and it seems like the only FPS multiplayer game to not take itself too seriously.

Getting into any established multiplayer game can seem like trying to break into an exclusive club, or the Stonecutters; having a low level to your name can essentially make you look like you've escaped from a leper colony and no one dare come near you, so you find yourself on a solitary trudge wondering "where is this experience everyone was talking about?".

Unfortunately, the fact is that multiplayer the vast majority of the time isn't spoiled by the gameplay, but the people you PLAY with; and it's even more crushing when you find out one of your closest friend plays like a giant wanker when they're online.

dudeman0001:

It's Kinda like how when I started playing SF I barely touched characters like Ryu and Ken. But favoured stranger, less commonly used characters, like Zangief & Dhalsim.

I always want to have some defining characteristic that makes me stand out from the crowd, and so do alot of other people.

I can relate to this... though the flipside of it is that you are therefore allowing the crowd to influence your choice. If you would have more fun playing Ryu, but choose not to due to his popularity, you are handicapping your game experience for the sake of noncomformity. Depending on the situation, I waffle on this one.

Wow.

Reading a Yahtzee piece after listening to a MovieBob piece meant I had the latter's voice reading out the former's words in my head.

It was oddly surreal.

Now I'm interested in what would happen if they switched spots and did each others video's for a week.

PS: Typo's are pretty noticable when you bold them; how that kind of thing slips by both the writer and the editor is beyond me.

"I was medic before it was cool"
oh my god thats hilarious XD. As for the update dislike, people who liked TF2 before all the extraneous weapons should try it on console or play on a vanilla server, I do this every once in a while to remind me of how good i was with scout, I was literally untouchable.

300lb. Samoan:
So Borderlands is mediocre because it doesn't give you the opportunity to show off what a non-conformist loner you are? Sounding more like a precious brat than a game reviewer here, regardless of how many people agree with you.

well if you put it that way. lol

OT: when i used to play wow i was the same way. i gave my rogue a backround as a brooding loner who sometimes has to partner up with others to take down a tyrant. it was a fun time because i only had two consistent friends and me and them worked together real well. once i got to level 70 (this was before wrath of the lich king) there was nothing else i felt i needed to do, and thus i beat the game in my head.

Hehe, thanks for responding to my question, Yahtzee. Shame to hear that you've given up playing TF2 (understandable given your busy schedule) but I'm glad to hear that you at least read the blog and actually follow every thing that's going on very closely. Honestly, the balance has been a little upset with all these items and there are many people who long for the old days before all this craziness was released, I believe there are even a few servers where you can only use the stock weapons (though all the tweaks to them still apply). It's funny though, the Medic weapons pack was arguably the best and most balanced (since the tweaks to it anyways), especially in the case of the medigun unlock: the kritzkrieg.

Also, in my question I accidentally spelled "fair" as "far", so I'm just gonna say that our typos balance each other out :P

I played TF classic for years and I definitely salivated at TF2 when it came out. It was my beloved game, redone, a bit silly, but it had style.

...Then the bullshit came in. And I went back to TF Classic.

I want my option to take out all the stupid retarded bullshit and let the level up kiddies have their fun. I just want my TF back... Sigh.

A1:
I guess that's what makes a good game different from a great game. Namely the ability to make a long-lasting impression. I guess one such example of a great game by this token is Final Fantasy VII.

I think FFVII lasts not by any particular qualities of its own (because let's face it, it does turn-based RPG combat well, but it's nothing we hadn't seen before -- in fact, the major points are aping its immediate predecessor), but by the circumstances. it popularized the angsty loser hero type which has become so dreaded over the last decade, and manages to keep itself in the public eye by continuous and alternating attacks between those who love to buy into hype and those who hate anything to do with it.

I know challenging FFVII's superiority is a good way to get eyebrows singed basically anywhere on the internet, but I'm not; I'm just saying that its quality isn't what's kept it alive this long. it's more a combination of hype, counterhype, and memetics.

as for the actual review, I gotta agree with the "alone, but not by myself" bit, or whatever the exact quote was. I don't really play MMOs, but with all the ones I've tried and later ditched, the baseline chatter and random appearances of other players lent something to the experience, even if they're all morons. kept me interested longer that I would have been otherwise, at least, and I guess it's nice to have a knowledge base to tap into when you're wondering how to find X or which is the best method for getting past Y.

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