Zero Punctuation: Dante's Inferno

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Traumaward313:
No not every hack 'n' slash is trying to be God of War.

Sure thing .. nobody said that ... but you know what ... Dante's inferno is trying that ... see .. that's the whole point .. it is a blatant rip-off.

In other words.

"Devil May Cry" .... is different
"Ninja Gaiden" ... is different
"Dead Rising" ... is different
"No more Heroes" ... is different
"Heavenly Sword" ... is different
"God Hand" ... is different
"Mad World" ... is different

On the other hand ... Dante's inferno .. blatantly rips-off GoW .. it is so damn obvious .. and not only does it rip-it-off .. but it does it badly ... now that's just one sad-excuse-for-game.

geldonyetich:

A1:

geldonyetich:
Maybe I would wait for God of War III if I wasn't already pretty bored of the Devil May Cry formula.

Developers are cutting mighty close to the quick here in terms of, "its time to stop milking that cash cow and do something original again." Ah, who I am kidding? Big game developers avoid doing that like it'll give them leprosy.

Regarding the humor of the review: a tad wank heavy, but what can I say? At this point, it seems Wednesdays shoddy incomplete works without a Yahtzee review, and this one was certainly up to snuff. A divine comedy about a God of War knockoff of the divine comedy.

I'm going to assume that you haven't seen the latest trailer for God of War III, because if you have then your first comment doesn't seem to reflect particularly well on you. I think it's safe to say that when God of War 3 is released most, if not all, of the people who are genuinely willing to give the game a chance (as opposed to you apparently) aren't going to be pointing at it and saying Devil May Cry. Especially not after the release of Devil May Cry 4. Please refer to Yahtzee's review of Devil May Cry 4 for a bit more on that point.

Me: This gameplay seems mighty derivative seeing how there's so many Devil May Cry/God Of War-like games these days.

You: OMG! GOW-III IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DEVIL MAY CRY! I'M GOING TO NAME MY FIRST BORN SON KRATOS AND CAST YOU DOWN INTO A PIT OF DESPAIR FOR DARING TO SLANDER THE GOD OF WAR NAME.

Me: ...

Except that isn't what you said. What you said is that you are getting tired of the Devil May cry formula which isn't the same as saying that the gameplay of Dante's Inferno seems derivative in light of the existence of many Devil May Cry/God of War type games. You are actually changing the argument. Factually the God of War/Devil May Cry comparisons end at their being in the same genre and therefore possessing certain similarities. Anything beyond that would be like saying Blazblue is a Street Fighter clone because you punch, kick, throw, and shoot projectiles in both games.

geldonyetich:

A1:
As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't bother no matter how many times I repeat myself.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first.

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Devil May Cry was not the first game in the genre. Kung Fu Master was. The original usage of Hack and Slash had to do with games like Diablo rather than Brawlers like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry. Ninja Gaiden is a far older franchise than Devil May Cry mind you.

shadow skill:

geldonyetich:
[Original message:]
Maybe I would wait for God of War III if I wasn't already pretty bored of the Devil May Cry formula.

Developers are cutting mighty close to the quick here in terms of, "its time to stop milking that cash cow and do something original again." Ah, who I am kidding? Big game developers avoid doing that like it'll give them leprosy.

Except that isn't what you said. What you said is that you are getting tired of the Devil May cry formula which isn't the same as saying that the gameplay of Dante's Inferno seems derivative in light of the existence of many Devil May Cry/God of War type games. You are actually changing the argument.

So, let me get this straight:

You think I changed the argument because I first said I was tired of a type of game and then said I felt it was derivative?

It would seem to me that it's not that hard to connect these two things as being part of the same idea: I'm tired of it because it's overly derivative.

Factually the God of War/Devil May Cry comparisons end at their being in the same genre and therefore possessing certain similarities. Anything beyond that would be like saying Blazblue is a Street Fighter clone because you punch, kick, throw, and shoot projectiles in both games.

The way I see it, when I'm tired of Street Fighter, I'm not going to get all that much more enjoyment out of BlazBlue. When I'm tired of Devil May Cry, I'm not going to get all that much more enjoyment out of God Of War or Dante's Inferno.

If they made a lot of radical deviations of gameplay, I'd change my tune. They did not. (Unless maybe you think the inclusion of quick time events has a whole lot of substance - personally, I look at them as being a barely interactive cinematic.)

shadow skill:
Devil May Cry was not the first game in the genre. Kung Fu Master was.

?!

Is the same type of game as

To you?

Yeah - how about you get a real perspective on games before you start trying to pick an argument?

The original usage of Hack and Slash had to do with games like Diablo rather than Brawlers like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry.

I'm not even going to touch this one. You just keep digging yourself deeper.

For the record, I never wrote the word genre even once. I'm talking about derivative gameplay experiences. You can throw crude categorizations such as genres at me all day, you'll just continue to miss the finer detail in which my point was made.

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Devil May Cry was not the first game in the genre. Kung Fu Master was.

?!

Is the same type of game as

To you?

Yeah - how about you get a real perspective on games before you start trying to pick an argument?

Yes actually they are the same type of game, in the same way that Street Fighter is the same type of game as Soul Calibur. The fact that one is a 2D side scroller and the other is 3d does not change the genre. How about you use your brain for five seconds instead of having to wait for someone to state the obvious?

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:

geldonyetich:
[Original message:]
Maybe I would wait for God of War III if I wasn't already pretty bored of the Devil May Cry formula.

Developers are cutting mighty close to the quick here in terms of, "its time to stop milking that cash cow and do something original again." Ah, who I am kidding? Big game developers avoid doing that like it'll give them leprosy.

Except that isn't what you said. What you said is that you are getting tired of the Devil May cry formula which isn't the same as saying that the gameplay of Dante's Inferno seems derivative in light of the existence of many Devil May Cry/God of War type games. You are actually changing the argument.

So, let me get this straight:

You think I changed the argument because I first said I was tired of a type of game and then said I felt it was derivative?

It would seem to me that it's not that hard to connect these two things as being part of the same idea: I'm tired of it because it's overly derivative.

Factually the God of War/Devil May Cry comparisons end at their being in the same genre and therefore possessing certain similarities. Anything beyond that would be like saying Blazblue is a Street Fighter clone because you punch, kick, throw, and shoot projectiles in both games.

The way I see it, when I'm tired of Street Fighter, I'm not going to get all that much more enjoyment out of BlazBlue. When I'm tired of Devil May Cry, I'm not going to get all that much more enjoyment out of God Of War or Dante's Inferno.

If they made a lot of radical deviations of gameplay, I'd change my tune. They did not.

Yes in fact it does change the argument because what you argue originally is that you are bored of Devil May Cry mechanics. You then proceed to change your argument to "I am tired of the genre itself."

It's the difference between saying that you are bored with the Lord of the Rings formula, vs. being bored with the fantasy genre itself. One implies boredom with items that seem to be derived from the tropes that Lord of the Rings created whereas the other says that you are bored of the tropes that make a given work a part of the genre itself.

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Devil May Cry was not the first game in the genre. Kung Fu Master was.

?!

Is the same type of game as

To you?

Yeah - how about you get a real perspective on games before you start trying to pick an argument?

The original usage of Hack and Slash had to do with games like Diablo rather than Brawlers like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry.

I'm not even going to touch this one. You just keep digging yourself deeper.

For the record, I never wrote the word genre even once. I'm talking about derivative gameplay experiences. You can throw crude categorizations such as genres at me all day, you'll just continue to miss the finer detail in which my point was made.

Changing the argument and then claiming victory doesn't really mean much of anything. Let me guess you figured out how stupid your original comment was and decided to alter your argument to try and fail miserably at making it even more nebulous than before? Ironically all this game experience stuff actually falls under the word genre, since genre however broad denotes the type of experience to be had in a game.

Nemu:
Loved it. :D

Sure, it's a knockoff of GoW et al, but you know, GoW was a rip-off of games I played 20 years ago. (Doom anyone? Okay, how about Diablo?) It was still kinda fun and it satisfied my "GOD, I hated Catholic school" twitches for a few hours.

You were joking, right?

Also, called the "Like God of War-" joke about two weeks ago. Yay for me.

dstryfe:

Brotherofwill:
I can't recall a single positive thing he said about it, it was about as negative as they get.

Oh, it was rife with negativity, but for some reason, it felt like they were all small complaints, or like the filler (mostly wank jokes) somehow made them less severe...compare with Borderlands, which I think was *much* worse.

Very true, it all depends on the way he's saying it and the tone of his voice. Wet was probably the harshest one I can remember.

shadow skill:
Yes in fact it does change the argument because what you argue originally is that you are bored of Devil May Cry mechanics. You then proceed to change your argument to "I am tired of the genre itself."

Guess what? You don't get to decide what I was thinking when I wrote a message. If you didn't pick up on it, that was a failure to communicate.

While it is possible I could have wrote things clearer, judging by what I've seen so far, it was mostly you who was unwilling or unable to commit the effort to communicate successfully.

When I clarified, this was a service to help you understand what you misunderstood, which you wrongfully interpreted as being an argument.

Changing the argument and then claiming victory doesn't really mean much of anything. Let me guess you figured out how stupid your original comment was and decided to alter your argument to make it even more nebulous than before?

I already explained how I changed nothing. You're wasting considerable quote space in re-quoting an entire message where all I did was add a clarifying paragraph at the end.

This message was much heavier revised. You could interpret this as me seeing something wrong with what I'm saying, but again you would miss the point that all I'm doing is clarifying. I reserve the right to clarify my points all I want, if you don't like it: tough.

I also explained how I argued about nothing. Your continued belief that this is occurring nonetheless only establishes how deeply deluded and/or unable to read you are.

I particularly find it amusing about how you believe I'm "claiming victory." It offers a window into your mind that there's an epic debate going on here. There is not.

Furthermore, even if there was a debate going on here, it seems you don't know how to have one. You ignored everything I told you and tried to shift gears to something that has nothing to do with what I said. To take a phrase out of your quote: "let me guess." You were so abysmally in the dark you couldn't even begin to address what I said, and so decided to try to discredit me instead?

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Changing the argument and then claiming victory doesn't really mean much of anything. Let me guess you figured out how stupid your original comment was and decided to alter your argument to make it even more nebulous than before?

I already explained how I changed nothing. You're wasting considerable quote space in re-quoting an entire message where all I did was add a clarifying paragraph at the end. I reserve the right to clarify my points all I want, if you don't like it: tough.

I also explained how I argued about nothing. Your continued belief that this is occurring nonetheless only establishes how deeply deluded and/or unable to read you are.

I particularly find it amusing about how you believe I'm "claiming victory." It offers a window into your mind that there's an epic debate going on here. There is not.

Furthermore, even if there was a debate going on here, it seems you don't know how to have one. You ignored everything I told you and tried to shift gears to something that has nothing to do with what I said. To take a phrase out of your quote: "let me guess." You were so abysmally in the dark you couldn't even begin to address what I said, and so decided to try to discredit me instead?

What's this then? image

The text if you don't feel like clicking the picture:

geldonyetich:

A1:
As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't bother no matter how many times I repeat myself.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first.

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

You clearly mention genre and then claim you didn't. When called on it you suggest that you are talking about game experiences when you clearly state that your reasoning has everything to do with the fact (According to you.) that DMC was the first in it's genre. You don't get to change your argument the moment someone calls you on it and declare victory.

At best you are disingenuous at worst you genuinely have no idea what you are even saying.

shadow skill:

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Changing the argument and then claiming victory doesn't really mean much of anything. Let me guess you figured out how stupid your original comment was and decided to alter your argument to make it even more nebulous than before?

I already explained how I changed nothing. You're wasting considerable quote space in re-quoting an entire message where all I did was add a clarifying paragraph at the end. I reserve the right to clarify my points all I want, if you don't like it: tough.

I also explained how I argued about nothing. Your continued belief that this is occurring nonetheless only establishes how deeply deluded and/or unable to read you are.

I particularly find it amusing about how you believe I'm "claiming victory." It offers a window into your mind that there's an epic debate going on here. There is not.

Furthermore, even if there was a debate going on here, it seems you don't know how to have one. You ignored everything I told you and tried to shift gears to something that has nothing to do with what I said. To take a phrase out of your quote: "let me guess." You were so abysmally in the dark you couldn't even begin to address what I said, and so decided to try to discredit me instead?

What's this then? image

It's a screenshot of a message you failed to understand.

The text if you don't feel like clicking the picture:

geldonyetich:

A1:
As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't bother no matter how many times I repeat myself.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first.

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

You clearly mention genre and then claim you didn't. When called on it you suggest that you are talking about game experiences when you clearly state that your reasoning has everything to do with the fact (According to you.) that DMC was the first in it's genre. You don't get to change your argument the moment someone calls you on it and declare victory.

You're right, I did use the word "genre."

I'm sorry that the word mislead you so heavily. I didn't expect to run into anyone so dense as to hear "genre" and immediately think "well, because people might apply some of the same words towards the genre of Kung Fu Master and Devil May Cry then Geldonyetich is obviously unaware of the differences between God of War and Devil May Cry and thus has no right to be bored them."

There you go with your "declare victory" nonsense again.

What are you? 16? Stop trying to picking intellectual debates with people twice your age. You may have a sharp enough mind, but are lacking in the wisdom to understand what's really going on here.

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Changing the argument and then claiming victory doesn't really mean much of anything. Let me guess you figured out how stupid your original comment was and decided to alter your argument to make it even more nebulous than before?

I already explained how I changed nothing. You're wasting considerable quote space in re-quoting an entire message where all I did was add a clarifying paragraph at the end. I reserve the right to clarify my points all I want, if you don't like it: tough.

I also explained how I argued about nothing. Your continued belief that this is occurring nonetheless only establishes how deeply deluded and/or unable to read you are.

I particularly find it amusing about how you believe I'm "claiming victory." It offers a window into your mind that there's an epic debate going on here. There is not.

Furthermore, even if there was a debate going on here, it seems you don't know how to have one. You ignored everything I told you and tried to shift gears to something that has nothing to do with what I said. To take a phrase out of your quote: "let me guess." You were so abysmally in the dark you couldn't even begin to address what I said, and so decided to try to discredit me instead?

What's this then? image

It's a screenshot of a message you failed to understand.

The text if you don't feel like clicking the picture:

geldonyetich:

A1:
As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't bother no matter how many times I repeat myself.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first.

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

You clearly mention genre and then claim you didn't. When called on it you suggest that you are talking about game experiences when you clearly state that your reasoning has everything to do with the fact (According to you.) that DMC was the first in it's genre. You don't get to change your argument the moment someone calls you on it and declare victory.

You're right, I did use the word "genre."

I'm sorry that the word mislead you so heavily. I didn't expect to run into anyone so dense as to hear "genre" and immediately think "Kung Fu Master is the same kind of game as Devil May Cry."

There you go with your "declare victory" nonsense again.

What are you? 16? Stop debating with people twice your age. You lack the wisdom to understand what's going on.

Awwww trying to pull age because you have been caught either lying or woefully unaware of the words you type? How cute. You presume to talk to me about wisdom while you are seemingly unaware of the words you are using? That is rich!

shadow skill:
Awwww trying to pull age because you have been caught either lying or woefully unaware of the words you type? How cute. You presume to talk to me about wisdom while you are seemingly unaware of the words you are using? That is rich!

Nailed it, I see.

Go bother somebody else, kid, I'm tired of having you biting at my ankles because you thought I was implying things I wasn't.

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Awwww trying to pull age because you have been caught either lying or woefully unaware of the words you type? How cute. You presume to talk to me about wisdom while you are seemingly unaware of the words you are using? That is rich!

Nailed it, I see.

Go bother somebody else, kid, I'm tired of having you biting at my ankles because you thought I was implying things I wasn't.

You keep telling yourself that I'm just a kid. (Notice how I have only used what you have posted here rather than to try and guess your age?) It doesn't explain how you apparently can't even remember that you expressly claimed that Devil May Cry was the first game in the beat em up genre when it is factually not so. You were the one who decided to go from your expressly stated reasoning towards the nebulous gaming experience (which is still defined by genre.) You are the one unable to grasp that there is in fact a difference between saying you are tired of a specific game's formula vs the genre it belongs to.

shadow skill:
You keep telling yourself that I'm just a kid. It doesn't explain how you apparently can't even remember that you expressly claimed that Devil May Cry was the first game in the beat em up genre when it factually is not so.

LOL! Oh, my sides, you are SO deluded right now.

Frankly, I question my own wisdom that I've wasted so many minutes of my life talking to someone who believes they can tell a writer what they wrote. That is a little piece of insanity that only you can cure yourself of.

You're on ignore. You can interpret this as me running away if you like. Truth of the matter is I am a dreadful procrastinator and I've wasted far too much time on you.

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
You keep telling yourself that I'm just a kid. It doesn't explain how you apparently can't even remember that you expressly claimed that Devil May Cry was the first game in the beat em up genre when it factually is not so.

LOL! Oh, my sides, you are SO deluded right now.

Frankly, I question my own wisdom that I've wasted so many minutes of my life talking to someone who believes they can tell a writer what they wrote. That is a little piece of insanity that only you can cure yourself of.

You're on ignore. You can interpret this as me running away if you like. Truth of the matter is I am a dreadful procrastinator and I've wasted far too much time on you.

How about you explain to all of us here how Street Fighter and Soul Calibur are not fighting games based on the same logic you use to claim that Kung Fu Master and Devil May Cry are not beat em ups/hack and slash games.

I find it kind of funny that I checked to see if there was a new ZP right after playing Dante's Inferno on a friend's 360, and lo and behold, ZP was on DI. o.O

This game seems to me to be what would happen if God of War and Devil May Cry got together and had a mentally-handicapped child. It's not a bad game, but it's rip-off readings are off the chart. What's worse is - and I'm sure Yahtzee said this but I simply didn't catch it while I was watching - that it doesn't even feel like they really read the poem this is supposed to be based off of, they just read the cliff-notes or something.

I actually think the fact that this game was so expertly cloned is a testament to Visceral's technical skill. Ironically this makes the fact that Dante's Inferno is such a blatant clone even sadder because Visceral's skill has been wasted on a game that is going to be all but forgotten in about four weeks.

shadow skill:
How about you explain to all of us here how Street Fighter and Soul Calibur are not fighting games based on the same logic you use to claim that Kung Fu Master and Devil May Cry are not beat em ups/hack and slash games.

Wow, once you're on my ignore list, you're stuck on it. I've removed you from my ignore list but you're still ignored. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature. If I didn't have a quote from you in my buffer I couldn't reply to you anymore.

In any case, I'll drop you what's (I hope) one last message just to clarify the situation to you.

I used the word genre, once, but "genre" is an abstract term. When I say "tree" am I referring to a Hawthorne tree or an Evergreen tree? When I said "genre" you decided this meant "beat'em'ups" when what I was actually referring to was something far more specific to games such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and God of War.

You held on to the idea that I must have meant "beat'em'ups" when I said genre even after I explained this was not the case a few times. Maybe it's because you're bad at reading, or maybe it's because you felt that if you could insist that's what I meant you would be "right" and "win" this argument you thought we were having. Which is absolutely adorable, but a wrong-minded approach to any serious discussion.

However, to take the whole thing into consideration, all I really meant to say was that I'm bored of games similar to Devil May Cry and God of War and I wish developers would innovate more. If you've chosen to misinterpret that as being a wild tangent of something worth arguing with, that's your problem, not mine.

I've largely chosen to ignore you simply because this nonsense has gone on long enough. It all could have been avoided if you were capable of acknowledging the value of a word is as a tool of communication. As tools to convey ideas, they can be used to build the foundations of worthy discussion. However, in this case, you misused a single one of those tools to build yourself a great cage that separated you from the truth for an extended period of time. Herein is how you are lacking in wisdom, young grasshopper.

ForgottenPr0digy:

axle 19:
Another in the long cavalcade of God of War knockoffs. God of War did it first and better so please stop making them and maybe focus on making a good game.

Devil May Cry was first (2001) and God of War came out second(2005) so I'm sorry GOW copied DMC

Sorry poor choice of words. What I meant to say was that God of War was the first game to combine the fantastic story with the amazing combat. Nothing against Dante's Inferno, I mean from what Ive seen the game is at least playable, but it takes way to many liberties and ruins the fantastic story of the Divine Comedy

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
How about you explain to all of us here how Street Fighter and Soul Calibur are not fighting games based on the same logic you use to claim that Kung Fu Master and Devil May Cry are not beat em ups/hack and slash games.

Wow, once you're on my ignore list, you're stuck on it. I've removed you from my ignore list but you're still ignored. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature. If I didn't have a quote from you in my buffer I couldn't reply to you anymore.

In any case, I'll drop you what's (I hope) one last message just to clarify the situation to you.

I used the word genre, once, but "genre" is an abstract term. When I say "tree" am I referring to a Hawthorne tree or an Evergreen tree? When I said "genre" you decided this meant "beat'em'ups" when what I was actually referring to was something far more specific to games such as Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and God of War.

You held on to the idea that I must have meant "beat'em'ups" when I said genre even after I explained this was not the case a few times. Maybe it's because you're bad at reading, or maybe it's because you felt that if you could insist that's what I meant you would be "right" and "win" this argument you thought we were having. Which is absolutely adorable, but a wrong-minded approach to any serious discussion.

However, to take the whole thing into consideration, all I really meant to say was that I'm bored of games similar to Devil May Cry and God of War and I wish developers would innovate more. If you've chosen to misinterpret that as being a wild tangent of something worth arguing with, that's your problem, not mine.

I've largely chosen to ignore you simply because this nonsense has gone on long enough. It all could have been avoided if you were capable of acknowledging the value of a word is as a tool of communication. As tools to convey ideas, they can be used to build the foundations of worthy discussion. However, in this case, you misused a single one of those tools to build yourself a great cage that separated you from the truth for an extended period of time.

Oh please you use a word wrong and I am the one who doesn't understand how words are tools of communication? I'm not trying to "win" an argument, I'm telling you that you changed your argument more than once. Are wrong when you assert that Devil May Cry was the first in it's class (genre), and are wrong now that you try to continue saying that you are not talking about genre tropes that these three games share. You haven't explained what those specific things that these three games you now bring up all posses. (Which is the very essence of any kind of classification.) You haven't explained how these qualities allow you to say that these games are not part of the brawler (beat em up) genre.) All in all you haven't actually said anything at all while you mock other users of the site. No one will understand what you mean when you don't even realize that you are changing your arguments, and misusing words.

It's a lot like "Too Human" in that it takes a crap on historical figures, isn't it?

shadow skill:
Oh please you use a word wrong and I am the one who doesn't understand how words are tools of communication?

That you believe that I used a word wrong is why you continue to delude yourself.

I never said "beat'em'up." I said "genre" once, it wasn't the best word to use because of the ambiguity, but the choice to misinterpret the way it you did was your decision, and it was dead wrong.

You will either take responsibility for your wrong decision or delude yourself.

The rest of your message is more of the same spineless quibbling over your complete immaturity in this matter. I'm disgusted to read it and ashamed I had anything to do with you today. I now know that I was right to ignore you the first time.

geldonyetich:

shadow skill:
Oh please you use a word wrong and I am the one who doesn't understand how words are tools of communication?

That you believe that I used a word wrong is why you continue to delude yourself.

I never said "beat'em'up." I said "genre" once, it wasn't the best word to use because of the ambiguity, but the choice to misinterpret the way it you did was your decision, and it was dead wrong.

You will either take responsibility for your wrong decision or delude yourself.

The rest of your message is more of the same spineless quibbling over your complete immaturity in this matter. I was right to ignore you the first time.

I know you did not say beat em up. But I did because Devil May Cry is a part of that genre. Now you are saying you did not mean to use genre but you haven't made any real effort to say what you actually meant in relationship to what I have said. You still haven't told me what qualities you were talking about which is what you were getting at when you said Devil May Cry did the genre first. You ignore all of this while saying that I am immature, a child, deluded, etc. No one knows what the heck you meant. The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

It is your responsibility to tell people what qualities you are talking about, it is not our responsibility to know your mind. I'll ask you again what qualities are you talking about?

The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

I've done all of that and more, several times.

That you can't see it is proof positive that you're too immature to read what was presented.

It really should not be at all surprising that I've lost all motivation to even try anymore.

If you want me to explain this to you, pay me. It has become a laborious chore worthy of $20/hr.

geldonyetich:

The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

I've done all of that and more, several times.

That you can't see it is proof positive that you're too immature to read what was presented.

It really should not be at all surprising that I've lost all motivation to even try anymore.

If you want me to explain this to you, pay me. It has become a laborious chore worthy of $20/hr.

Still nothing I see. Wow you are so mature, admit to misusing a term say you are referring to something else and then when asked to define just what that something else is you refuse.

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition. Yet I and anyone else reading any of what you have said here is supposed to just accept whatever it is you throw out there. You claim I don't know how to have a debate but you refuse to actually say what qualities Devil May Cry, God of War, and Bayonetta all posses. You want people to not take your use of the word genre by the word's intended meaning but you have yet to provide a supplemental meaning for the purposes of this discussion. I read all your posts before I replied and not once did you actually mention the qualities you speak of here on this page. (Unless of course you have edited your posts to add all that in.) I have to question what business you have mocking me or A1 when you still have not actually said what you mean, and only that my reading of the words you have been using is wrong? You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case. However we are all to accept this as truth without any reason (definition) for the argument you are making. When I say that all games are RPG's I don't expect people to take that as gospel without either linking them to the definition of roleplay or using some other device to explain my assertion.

geldonyetich:

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out of this word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

So deal with it.

You don't seem to get that you have been implicitly talking about genres the entire time. Any classification is based on the qualities a group of items possesses. You may think you are not, but you are.

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out the misuse of a word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case.

Because it's self-evident to anyone with enough world knowledge to know that "genre" in the context you are using it in is wholly applies to some poor schmuck categorizing games, and has next to no bearing on what I was really talking about.

geldonyetich:

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out the misuse of a word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case.

Because it's self-evident to anyone with enough world knowledge to know that "genre" in the context you are using it in is wholly applies to some poor schmuck categorizing games, and has next to no bearing on what I was really talking about.

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

The trouble is that when you saw me use the word "genre," you believed it was referring specifically to this crude classification definition of the word.

According to Webster's Dictionary, I was not really in the wrong to use the word. However, I meant something more specific than you decided I meant: a genre to which the typical crude words would not encapsulate, which referred specifically to God Of War/Devil May Cry like games.

If you had paid appropriate attention to the context of my original message, this should have been self-evident, because these are the only games I mentioned and it's mentioned in the context of a third similar game Dante's Inferno. Even Yahtzee himself expresses that "Dante's Inferno is God Of War" and as far as I'm concerned Devil May Cry isn't distinct enough to matter.

That you are so completely dead-set on believing the wholly incorrect misinterpretation you have made must have been what I meant from the start indicates that you are completely insane because you apparently believe you are capable of reading my mind.

It thus fills me with revulsion that things have dragged on over this simple matter. I actually missed a second semester Spanish class today because I allowed myself to get occupied on this thread at a bad time. But, at the same time, it's human nature to delude ourselves thusly. It's fostering awareness these built-in slippery slopes that bring about wisdom.

geldonyetich:

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

The trouble is that when you saw me use the word "genre," you believed it was referring specifically to this crude classification definition of the word.

I meant something slightly more specific. A genre to which the typical crude words would not encapsulate, which referred specifically to God Of War/Devil May Cry like games.

If you had paid appropriate attention to the context of my original message, this should have been self-evident, because these are the only games I mentioned and it's mentioned in teh context of a third similar game Dante's Inferno.

That you are so completely revoltingly dead-set on believing the wholly incorrect misinterpretation you have made must have been what I meant from the start indicates that you are completely insane because you apparently believe you are capable of reading my mind.

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me? I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo That is why I asked you what elements you are talking about because there are lots of common elements to these games which is why they are a part of the same genre.

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me?

Hey, go ahead and interpret words based on their definition. According to Webster's Dictionary I was fully in my rights to use the word "genre" the way I did.

When I say there was "ambiguity" I just meant that there was room for a wrong-minded twit to misunderstand if they applied themselves.

Which you did. Congrats.

It seems my temper is flaring again. Some poster boy of wisdom I am. I do have to hand it to you - though I believe you a wrong-minded fool in many respects, at least you keep your temper better than I have.

I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo

Not even close.

Listen. To. Me. A GENRE SPECIFIC TO THE GAMES DEVIL MAY CRY, BAYONETTA, GOD OF WAR, AND DANTE'S INFERNO. If you leave what those three games have in common, you are wrong, no matter what crude label you believe they all fit under.

The key phase is: the context in which the word was applied. Context is actually a cornerstone of the English language. If you do not pay attention to the context, you are failing to communicate.

Can I make it any simpler? I don't think I can. Ima gunna go boot up X-Com: Apocolypse and kill some goddamn Anthropods until my caffeine fueled rage subsides.

I think maybe it was being 'molested' by the wind, or some shit like that, and then they throw Joan of Arc in there for some reason or another.

I LOVE when Yahtzee starts running out of breath. In his effort to get the whole sentence out before complete lack of oxygen, he sounds angry and sarcastic, and it makes me laugh every time.

Meh. One of my friends at work is completely obsessed with Dante's Inferno, he really won't shut up about how good it is. He uses the phrase "like God of War," too when describing it to customers.

geldonyetich:

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me?

Hey, go ahead and interpret words based on their definition. According to Webster's Dictionary I was fully in my rights to use the word "genre" the way I did.

When I say there was "ambiguity" I just meant that there was room for a wrong-minded twit to misunderstand if they applied themselves.

Which you did. Congrats.

It seems my temper is flaring again. Some poster boy of wisdom I am. I do have to hand it to you - though I believe you a wrong-minded fool in many respects, at least you keep your temper better than I have.

I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo

Not even close.

Listen. To. Me. A GENRE SPECIFIC TO THE GAMES DEVIL MAY CRY, BAYONETTA, GOD OF WAR, AND DANTE'S INFERNO. If you leave what those three games have in common, you are wrong, no matter what crude label you believe they all fit under.

The key phase is: the context in which the word was applied. Context is actually a cornerstone of the English language. If you do not pay attention to the context, you are failing to communicate.

Can I make it any simpler? I don't think I can. Ima gunna go boot up X-Com: Apocolypse and kill some goddamn Anthropods until my caffeine fueled rage subsides.

You were the one who said you had misused the term. When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant. This fact means that claiming that Devil May Cry was the first of it's kind factually untrue period. Secondly it seems to me that you are arguing that DMC, Bayonetta, God of War, and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves without actually defining that genre. So many other games have commonality with these games that trying to separate them into a new category makes no sense whatsoever. The things that Devil May Cry did mechanically where already done by older games, so how in the hell could Devil May Cry logically be called the first in a new genre?

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