Stolen Pixels #172: Gotham's Latest Superhero

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Stolen Pixels #172: Gotham's Latest Superhero

Do you ever wonder if maybe Batman needs to rethink his approach to things?

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Batman should start letting people with guns help, even if he won't use them himself.

Onyx Oblivion:
Batman should start letting people with guns help, even if he won't use them himself.

Yeah, make his life so much easier!

Onyx Oblivion:
Batman should start letting people with guns help, even if he won't use them himself.

Have to agree with this. They don't even need to shoot to kill, one hit to the legs would incapacitate Joker and indeed most of the villains.

Also, once again a hilarious comic.

Silly Batman with his silly morality. If Wayne didn't have Batman he'd probably go nuts himself, though. Wayne's addicted to Batman; he won't change his heroic image for anyone but himself.

It's like Joker (in The Dark Knight) said: "You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is close proximity to a large body of mass with a high density capable of producing a gravitational field strong enough to overcome other forces such as magnetism or friction (the former of which may or may not be a moot point if you consider the human being which is mostly carbonic and dihydrogen monoxygenic in nature and the latter of which would only come into play as air resistance) or even the effects of other gravitational fields that are acting upon a given body!"

I'm not sure those are Ledger's exact words... I may be paraphrasing.

It would have been a short series though. Probably ending in the 40's when they ran out of living, un-kneecapped villains.

So willing suspension of reality? We need more of that I think.

I question his inability to kill the Joker as well. I'm a big Batman and I love the Joker, but realistically (I do realize were talking about comics) Joker should be dead. He's has killed more people than any of Batman's other villains and has killed or maimed so many people close to Batman.

Vrex360:

Onyx Oblivion:
Batman should start letting people with guns help, even if he won't use them himself.

Have to agree with this. They don't even need to shoot to kill, one hit to the legs would incapacitate Joker and indeed most of the villains.

Also, once again a hilarious comic.

Indeed. Although in Joker's case, I think 103,242 million escapes kinda proves he needs to be shoot repeated in the head. And then a few more times to be certain.

Good day gentlemen.I'm here to say:Welcome back "Superman at world End" flashback.Have a good day.
And now that i know why batman doesn't use guns totally explains his behavior

I'm on the camp that says Batman shouldn't kill anyway. It's an easy way out, and easy ways out have a tendency to make people not take an issue as seriously as they should. Sure, one may posit the Joker is beyond redeeming and is better off dead, but that assertion isn't valid for every bat-villain. And who gets to draw the line on which villain should be shot and which shouldn't? Riddler? Scarecrow? Two-Face? The Blob? Penguin?

Batman media keep making references to the Abyss staring back at you; this exactly that.

You know what? Batman may be against killing people, but i think it would be good to injure Joker in some way once in a while or something. So he will, you know, have a harder time breaking out of prison. It wouldn't be as quick-n-easy for him if his hands or legs were broken.

Darkwolf9:
I'm a big Batman and I love the Joker, but realistically (I do realize were talking about comics) Joker should be dead.

Y'know who else should be dead? Professor X. (Yeah, wrong universe, but come with me, here.) Anyone with the ability to kill the entire human race (ref: the second X-Men movie) should not be walking around breathing. Even if he says he's a nice guy. Even if he says he only started to do it that one time, and it was an accident. I think such a person, in reality, would quickly meet with an unfortunate accident.

DaveMc:

Darkwolf9:
I'm a big Batman and I love the Joker, but realistically (I do realize were talking about comics) Joker should be dead.

Y'know who else should be dead? Professor X. (Yeah, wrong universe, but come with me, here.) Anyone with the ability to kill the entire human race (ref: the second X-Men movie) should not be walking around breathing. Even if he says he's a nice guy. Even if he says he only started to do it that one time, and it was an accident. I think such a person, in reality, would quickly meet with an unfortunate accident.

If it makes you feel any better in the Ultimate Universe Magneto snaps his neck. I'm not sure if its ethical to kill someone because they have the potential to harm or kill the entire human race. At least with killing the Joker you know you're really making the world a better place. He's killed a lot of innocent people out of the sheer joy of killing people. He has no desire or hope for rehabilitation. Not only has he killed many people, he plans on killing more. I value life and I think killing the Joker would uphold that value more than it would go against it.

I'm sure Shamus already knows this, but to you less... nerdy fans in the crowd:

Batman actually did use guns back in 1939-40. No, not the grapple gun, I'm talking an actual gun. That shot bullets. And killed people.

Batman fucking killed people in his early years. With guns. The very same instruments that, well... you already know that part.

---

DaveMc:

Darkwolf9:
I'm a big Batman and I love the Joker, but realistically (I do realize were talking about comics) Joker should be dead.

Y'know who else should be dead? Professor X. (Yeah, wrong universe, but come with me, here.) Anyone with the ability to kill the entire human race (ref: the second X-Men movie) should not be walking around breathing. Even if he says he's a nice guy. Even if he says he only started to do it that one time, and it was an accident. I think such a person, in reality, would quickly meet with an unfortunate accident.

To further this point, why the hell is the Scarlet Witch still alive? Maybe my memory is a bit shoddy, but didn't she singlehanded murder about 99% of the entire mutant population? And they just let her go?

Or is there some kind of retcon of House of M and Decimation that I'm not aware of?

If real world values applied, Gotham would have become a "Death Penalty" city after the second or third costumed nut wiped out a busload of nuns. Joker would be a needle jockey by now, Batman or no.

Just give joker some pills and he will die.

I've always wondered about the morality of letting all the crooks live, on one hand we keep getting more comics with recuring villians, on the other hand a bunch of made up people get killed in aweful ways...

I'll side with the comics on this one, never kill off a good villian.

Batman carried a gun during his first few appearences back in "Detective Comics".

/nerd.

Shamus Young:
Stolen Pixels #172: Gotham's Latest Superhero

Do you ever wonder if maybe Batman needs to rethink his approach to things?

Read Full Article

Actually in the very first comics of Batman he DID carry around a gun, thats when in the 60s and what not it got all silly

Amarok:
Batman carried a gun during his first few appearences back in "Detective Comics".

/nerd.

NNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRD!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, I'm suprised one of the normal people hasn't shot him yet. All they seem to do is aim at him and try to talk to him.

If talking the first 20 times didn't freaking work, and he killed people afterwords, I think its time to get the Joker aquainted with good ol' fasion bullets.

you should consult grant morrison on this very subject shamus

i liked the batman that took over when bruce was handicapped. rubber bullets and blood. no wonder azrael kicked ass

I personally find Batman's morality to be pretty stupid. In a game like Arkham Asylum he has no problem pretty much breaking every other bone in the inmate's bodies (I mean seriously look at some of the take downs, there is no way some of those goons aren't bleeding internally or having skull fractures. And because he doesn't kill you pretty much find a slew a asylum personnel and guards dead throughout the island. You know what you don't find? The convicts, because they all get up after a while and go to cheer/taunt you on while wearing party hats before you fight the Joker. Seriously wtf kind of logic is that?
If I was a guard on the island I'd be like to hell with the batman I'm going with shoot the bad guy in the face man.

See, this is why I thought the idea behind Marvel's "Civil War" was so stupid.

Your problem isn't unregistered superheroes, dickweeds, it's that you keep letting lunatic mass murderers back onto the street after they've been captured by those unregistered superheroes two-three hundred times.

The real solution in Civil War would have been an automatic death penalty for any act of supervillany.

When Joker was first introduced, he got stabbed in the chest and died.

Then he got "Phoenix Down'd" and became the famous villain everyone loves.

So yes, Joker can even escape death.

Batman whipped up some dart-firing machine guns for "The Cult" so he and Robin could tackle the Deacon Blackfire's crazed masses.

Non-lethal, sure, but they got the job done (though I can imagine even a non-lethal dart could kill if it hit in the right spot.)

He built a badass monster truck Batmobile but that's beside the point.

I can accept that Batman is psychologically an eight year old in a grown up body and has a pathological need to never see anyone die again, thus his inability to kill, and the only reason anyone doesn't realise that he's a mental case is that there's a bunch of other silly bastards in tights running around.

Where I have difficulty is the notion that no one else has killed the Joker. Serriously, even if all the heroes in the DCU are constrained by the simple-minded moral code that Superman and Batman seem to share, what about all the other crazies running around Gotham? Surely if some new villian was to roll into town and wanted to make his bones, killing the Joker and leaving his head jammed on a piece of rebar stuck outside police headquarters would be a good way to mark their territory. Nothing says, "Don't fuck with me," like decapitating the psychotic clown that makes everyone in town piss their pants.

To say nothing of all the average Joes and Joesphinas running around Gotham. Surely not every one of the Joker's victims has been a friendless loner with no family. If Arkham has the revolving door it's depicted as having, then how hard could it be for someone to bribe a gaurd to let them in to the Joker's cell in the middle of the night to cut his throat, or to posion his food?

PiercedMonk:
I can accept that Batman is psychologically an eight year old in a grown up body and has a pathological need to never see anyone die again, thus his inability to kill, and the only reason anyone doesn't realise that he's a mental case is that there's a bunch of other silly bastards in tights running around.

Where I have difficulty is the notion that no one else has killed the Joker. Serriously, even if all the heroes in the DCU are constrained by the simple-minded moral code that Superman and Batman seem to share, what about all the other crazies running around Gotham? Surely if some new villian was to roll into town and wanted to make his bones, killing the Joker and leaving his head jammed on a piece of rebar stuck outside police headquarters would be a good way to mark their territory. Nothing says, "Don't fuck with me," like decapitating the psychotic clown that makes everyone in town piss their pants.

To say nothing of all the average Joes and Joesphinas running around Gotham. Surely not every one of the Joker's victims has been a friendless loner with no family. If Arkham has the revolving door it's depicted as having, then how hard could it be for someone to bribe a gaurd to let them in to the Joker's cell in the middle of the night to cut his throat, or to posion his food?

the iconic characters never die.

being cynical - it's bad for business.
being critical - some douche like jeph loeb would just them back for kicks

for those of you that like jeph loeb, please read Ultimatum. I wouldn't wipe my ass with that comic book.

I suspect it has much to do with the Comics Code Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority). Basically, in order to survive the censorship of the 50s superhero comics in the US moved away from realistic depictions of violence (i.e. men in tights). Before that, when you had your war comics and detective comics there was no such inhibition of course.

By the time the 70s and 80s rolled along and people were willing to accept that comics were not corrupting the young, the rules of the superhero genre had been ingrained in the audience. And so something that appears as non-sensical as "Batman doesn't just buy himself an army and take over the city in a staged coup which he is more than rich enough to afford" becomes the status quo.

Anyone looking for common sense in superhero comic books is bound to come up empty handed, if entertained.

I want that guard's superpowers! I would vow to protect the innocent, bring justice to the world, and make the bad guys dead. Or I would do what I'm doing now except have a gun in my possession.

See, this is why I like the Punisher.
If there is a bad guy, Punisher shoots them in the face. No questions asked.

This thread finally encouraged me to make an account. I was in a small discussion thread about this on the Steam forums. Here's the gist of my point from there.

If Batman kills, Batman loses his argument. It's not a simple matter of what is pragmatic versus what is ideal: pragmatists in the Batman setting are nearly always thwarted and out-manoeuvred by the larger characters that symbolise things. Gary Oldman kind of sums it up vaguely at the end of Batman Begins- "escalation: we buy semi-automatics, they buy automatics. We wear kevlar, they start using armour piercing rounds.." . The symbolic, idealist characters are thinking with a lot more foresight than the short-term pragmatists.

If the Joker is right about everything, killing him is futile. If Batman is right, killing him is unnecessary. If Rah'as Al'Ghul is right: killing men like the Joker is not only necessary; it's insufficient, one must be prepared to do all that is necessary and even innocent people must die. Execution serves no defensible long-term purpose.

Batfred:
It would have been a short series though. Probably ending in the 40's when they ran out of living, un-kneecapped villains.

So willing suspension of reality? We need more of that I think.

I think in the 40's he used to shoot people. And then they thought it would be better if he spared them. The Punisher would have Gotham cleaned up in 1 night (probably a birthday party)
At least Frank Miller's Batman cripples people.

(Ahhh! DaMunky had the same idear)

Darkwolf9:

DaveMc:
Y'know who else should be dead? Professor X.

If it makes you feel any better in the Ultimate Universe Magneto snaps his neck. I'm not sure if its ethical to kill someone because they have the potential to harm or kill the entire human race.

I'm not at all sure about that, either, which is what makes it interesting to me. To simplify it further: you're presented with a person (Person X, let's say), and you know nothing about them except that they have the capacity to kill the entire human race in a way that nobody can prevent. I don't know what that person could ever say or do that would convince me that they would *never* use that power. Could they convince the authorities that they were safe to have around?

I can imagine some gut-wrenching comics about this: A young mutant discovers that their one and only power is to destroy all the oxygen around them when they get upset, and if they get mad enough they'll destroy all the O2 in the entire atmosphere. They're a cute young kid, never done anything to anybody ... but they could destroy the world. What to do? What would the military or the government want to do? (Given the sheer number of comics out there, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that such stories already exist.)

Shoots-People-In-The-Face-Man proves the best justice is the justice of the grave.

In the golden age Batman did use guns, then again in the golden age The Joker beat Batman by outliving him.

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