243: The Thin Red Line

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT
 

The Thin Red Line

The line between a clever use of game mechanics and a blatant abuse of a programming error isn't always clear-cut. But many developers could be doing more to help police their games' communities. Murray Chu takes a closer look at how Valve has responded to exploits in Left 4 Dead and Team Fortress 2.

Read Full Article

If there's one thing that doesn't exist in nearly every avenue of competitive online gaming, it's sportsmanship; even if they have problems with it, no one will tell you its more fun to lose fairly than win underhandedly.

I'm rarther into a mod Eternal silence and we do exactly that an exploit was discovered by a clan mate of mine (jamming remote turrets in walls making them invulnerable) this was declared an exploit and players don't do it simple as that if the exploit isn't unbalanced in any way the decision is taken to declare its not a bug its a feature (example seat hopping in a bomber)

I don't think it should be the responsibility of the gamer to know how the game is supposed to be played, therefore I believe people shouldn't be banned for using exploits, even if they are obvious.

You know, I have never played TF2, even though I love all the marketing stuff for it. That said, it does sound like a fascinating game. I have always enjoyed the cat and mouse of exploitation - even though I am almost always on the "I don't exploit" read "losing" side in games like that.

Halo 2's superjumping comes to mind when I read this.

People were always heavily divided by it. Either it was ok, or it wasn't, there was no in-between.

It's a simple thing. Valve essentially has an open channel to gamers via Steam, Steam updates, the Tf2 blog, and many other methods. All it takes is: "The exploit discovered to reach the RED rooftop as an Engineer on map Name should be considered an exploit. We are working on a patch to eliminate it now. In the interests of balanced gameplay and enjoyable experiences for all players, please redistribute this message on your servers and warn/remove any offending players."

That's all it takes. The gap between an exploit being discovered and closed is systematically reduced by "official stigma", enforcement by server-owners, and separation into servers that care about balance and servers that don't care. Once the exploit is patched, the servers re-mingle as they become indistinguishable again. Simple, quick, clean, effective.

Of course, notifying players that an exploit exists for class on map may cause a temporary upswing, but I think it'd balance out in the common player's favour.

It's not like people who had items removed for idling can really claim innocence. The only ones affected were those who used an external program to fake that they were ingame.

mechanixis:
If there's one thing that doesn't exist in nearly every avenue of competitive online gaming, it's sportsmanship; even if they have problems with it, no one will tell you its more fun to lose fairly than win underhandedly.

I would. But only for things that are clearly exploits. Using a weapon/attack/technique that seems unbalanced doesn't count as exploiting, in my book.

My current peeve is the exploit to slide around while incapacitated in L4D2 (not sure if it was also in the first one, didn't play enough Vs to notice). It's not game breaking or anything, just annoying.

The problem with making an announcement about an exploit is that it ensures that everyone knows about it.

Exploits are secretive things that most only learn of first-hand, because those using them don't want them to be popular, simply because the more popular is becomes the more likely the developers are going to fix it.

I know that in the case of eve online, they are constantly fixing exploits, but even when an exploit is fixed, they don't publicly say what it was that was fixed.

I agree. Developers should actually talk to their community regarding these problems. It wouldn't prevent all the problems but it would certainty help.

Valve made a terrible system that randomly handed out items, annoying those who felt they had earned an item which people who "did less than them" got instead.
They then punished everyone who felt bitter about this system, those who tried to get the items they felt they had earned by playing just as much as the people who happened to get hats.

Valve didn't try to correct their broken system, it seems like they just punished everyone who dared to be insulted by chaos.
They could've talked to the players instead, made a better system, simply stop idle-programs from working and move on like nothing happened.

I think Valve have got a lot to learn in public relations.

Never got the problem with "exploits" - if you can do it without modifying the game its perfectly legitimate, because someone else can do it to you just as easily as you can do it to them.

Playing creativly is playing smart - doing something the opposition doesn't expect is likley to leave them blind sided and vulnerable. If they're decent players they'll know better next time. Failing to use a tool that enhances your chance of victory is playing dumb - online gaming is inherently competitive and so that is, in its simplest form our goal - victory. Failure to do everything you can to win within the game is playing the game incorrectly in the most essential way.

In left 4 dead, tanks hitting cars into survivors is a part of the game -- not an exploit.

The car (or dumptster or forklift etc.) lights up red when you're the tank, letting you know it's a hittable object. Furthermore, some cars are supposed to be hittable while others are "glued" to the ground and cannot be hit.

It's all part of the game mechanic.

Stat padding in Bf2 is certainly pisses me off. The upgrades in that game are few and far between, so it can get a bit annoying when you really want the next gun unlock. That being said, I hate padders. Occasionally you'll see a passworded server with 1 team with 4 people at 0-17 and one guy on the other team at 68-0. That's just lame. I was in another server where 3 guys were working together, killing and then reviving one other guy over and over, getting several regular rounds worth of points in a few minutes.

I don't really care if thats technically allowed, that's just totally lame. Clearly there wasn't intended to be any "point farming" in an fps. I don't really have a good solution for something like that though. Admins need to pay more attention I guess.

In my opinion any game with consistent stats had better try hard to make sure that those stats were acquired on a fair playing field. Someone who has a k:d of 5 in bf2 from just being amazing should be recognized as better than people who don't don't actually play the damn game.

A lot of the rationalization that anything that can be done in the game should be done in the name of winning, comes from a book by sirlin. I'm not a fan of his book, at all. It's as if he doesn't recognize the complexity of actually making a game, and that problems like that are actual problems with the coding that need to be fixed. It's not an eight by eight chessboard, where the rules are specific, the rules for the games are in the code. If the code is broken, it has a different impact than someone putting their piece down where they want it, as opposed to where it can go. The obviousness of a rule violation in chess is different than an exploit in a game, because it can go under the radar in a more substantial way. But people think this isn't a problem if it helps them win, Which is the thrust of his book. Whatever methods help you win are okay, since that's the only thing of value in games.

The entire idea of me not being able to do what I want with software I have legitimately bought bothers me no end. For me it is obvious I'm allowed to use any in-game glitch I can find. Using an external tool is obviously cheating if it is an online game. I'm a computer scientist, so my area of expertise is correctness of programs. For a software developer to put the responsibility of correct programs on the customer is flat out silly.

Especially when said customers have to guess what "correct" means. All that responsibility lies with the producer, not the consumers. If gamers need to be told how to play their games, something is wrong with the games and not the gamers.

That's my opinion anyway, but I don't play online regularly. Frag mayhems or cheesy grinding doesn't attract me.

i think the difference lies in whether you're playing the game as it was intended.

example: L4D survival mode
- if we're running around a L4D level and one guy walks through a wall - ok, funny whatever. weird. we're still playing.
- but if you tell everyone to stop fighting and climb along this pipe so we one person can jump to a window so we can all twiddle our thumbs for 10 minutes and get a gold medal: that's clearly just cheating. (i felt roped into just such a situation, and ended up leaving the server before the time was up, because i didn't want to have to explain how i'd gotten a gold medal on that map).

I don't think it's up to Valve to tell the community not to pursue that 2nd example. That's CLEARLY not how the game was meant to be played.

- i stopped playing TF2 when the medic pack came out (though my brain is saying it was really settled when the pyro flare gun came out. when was that?).

I was excited to start pursuing the unlocks, and then saw everyone already had them. I was invited to one of those cheat servers by a friend, and it just felt dirty. it was like "say, Valve guys- i see you've set this up to take a few months. well we just raped it out over night! whattaya think?!?!?" . that's not a message i want to send.

I paid for the game so that I could have fun with it, and see what treats the developer designed into it. not so that i could cheat and have all the rewards overnight.

This reminds me of an MMORPG, Perfect World. Character customization is a significant selling point for the game, and works by one using the in-game program to create a Notepad text document, which is uploaded into the game server upon character creation or editing.
This leaves users with an opportunity to play around with the clearly labeled integers, and make the character's features significantly more or less than what is available by the in-game program. (Surprisingly, large heads are more common than digital macromastomy) The official stance is that any editing of these files is considered altering the game's files- which is against the Terms of Service, and thus a bannable offense.
On one hand, I can understand not wanting hideously proportioned visual monstrosities, but what I would consider more reasonable illegal character editing itself does occur. The Werefox class, for example, has mandatory animal appendages, and for some reason the color of the standard-issue bushy fox tail can be edited by this method. Simply a color change- no size hacks, no texture changes, nothing else. If one moves the hairstyle files from one race's files to another, an elf or human could have the hair of the tideborn, which is far more intricate and rendered with more care than those for the other races.
There is a cash-shop item that allows you to access certain features normally unavailable in the character creation, but a blue tail and an elf with a seashell headdress are not, and have not been available (without exploits) in the half-decade of the game's availability, and after all this fuss, I doubt it never will. I still do not see why it is considered a bannable offence- it is purely a cosmetic matter; if done in good taste, should it be so harshly condemned?
Yes, I played around with this feature myself for a while, but I did not want to make a move that would get me banned thirty or so levels down the road. No seashell hair for my elf. I must admit, however, that all my characters boast physiques larger than what the sliders have to offer- though not a single person has yet to notice the fact that my characters have a healthy BMI, rather than the otherwise mandatory fashion-doll physique.

warrenEBB:
i think the difference lies in whether you're playing the game as it was intended.

example: L4D survival mode
- if we're running around a L4D level and one guy walks through a wall - ok, funny whatever. weird. we're still playing.
- but if you tell everyone to stop fighting and climb along this pipe so we one person can jump to a window so we can all twiddle our thumbs for 10 minutes and get a gold medal: that's clearly just cheating. (i felt roped into just such a situation, and ended up leaving the server before the time was up, because i didn't want to have to explain how i'd gotten a gold medal on that map).

I don't think it's up to Valve to tell the community not to pursue that 2nd example. That's CLEARLY not how the game was meant to be played.

- i stopped playing TF2 when the medic pack came out (though my brain is saying it was really settled when the pyro flare gun came out. when was that?).

I was excited to start pursuing the unlocks, and then saw everyone already had them. I was invited to one of those cheat servers by a friend, and it just felt dirty. it was like "say, Valve guys- i see you've set this up to take a few months. well we just raped it out over night! whattaya think?!?!?" . that's not a message i want to send.

I paid for the game so that I could have fun with it, and see what treats the developer designed into it. not so that i could cheat and have all the rewards overnight.

Pretty much ohw I feel. If it's something that doesn't damage gameplay, it's not bad, but as soon as people take advantage of it, the fun dribbles away, and it should be fixed. Good article.

Absolutely developers need to have a rapport with players about the proper use of game mechanics. Valve's example is a good one for how more discussion would have solved the problems earlier, or at least made most players less angry about it. If you want to see the best example I know of where developers are working hand-in-hand with players, check out EVE's system, whereby an elected group of players is in constant communication with the developers about events in their world. Since they have only one instance of the game-world, and everything in it relies on the proper functioning of their fairly realistic economy, it is crucial that bugs and exploits be discovered and eliminated early, but it is also important that the players understand what they are and why the changes are being made.

Case in point: a few years ago a small number of corporations figured out an exploit for item creation which allowed them to manufacture high-end materials at zero cost. They kept this quiet for months, but the devs finally caught on. They fixed the problem, destroyed any factories that had been using the exploit, and permabanned the involved players. Then they produced a report which they first discussed with the Council for Stellar Management (the aforementioned group of elected players) before refining and releasing to the general user-base. As you can see if you look through it, this report is highly detailed, and discusses the economic impact of the exploit (charts upon charts!), why it was obvious that these players knew what they were doing was wrong, and their justifications for the actions they took. Furthermore, the devs discussed why they missed the exploit for so long, and what they were doing to refine their bug-reporting system in order to catch future such occurrences long before they become systemic problems.

This is the kind of model that other online games, especially those which tout themselves as "massively multi-player" should adopt for community management. It may require more time, effort, and staff, but it makes for a stronger community, and thus a stronger game.

Idling is neither cheating nor disallowed. Using external programs to fake stats IS disallowed, and is what was punished.

Here's a counter-example: Capcom vs SNK 2.

Early on in the game's lifespan, an enormous "roll cancel" bug was discovered allowing characters to turn their special moves invulnerable. Players whined and called for a ban.
A couple years later, everybody was doing it, and the game actually ended up just as interesting as it was without roll cancels. It didn't even change the balance that much, because everybody could do it.

warrenEBB:
example: L4D survival mode
- if we're running around a L4D level and one guy walks through a wall - ok, funny whatever. weird. we're still playing.
- but if you tell everyone to stop fighting and climb along this pipe so we one person can jump to a window so we can all twiddle our thumbs for 10 minutes and get a gold medal: that's clearly just cheating. (i felt roped into just such a situation, and ended up leaving the server before the time was up, because i didn't want to have to explain how i'd gotten a gold medal on that map).

On one hand, i'm inclined to agree with you. On the other, isn't hiding in contrived places the best way to survive a zombie apocalypse anyway and thus completely in character.

I know one game that was practically designed to be played with cheats, can't remember the name.

Only a few iems were reachable by jumping, the rest required more and more advanced degrees of jumping on proximity mines(deus ex style) or direct wallrunning, doors were especially thin pieces of wall that were easier to crouch glitch through and if somebody had the skill to get past the regular ones, he deserved the ability to be Davy Jones on his ship. Enemy got aimbot? Code a more efficient one that requires less cpu cycles before it fires. Enemy got wallhack? Make one that also gives you firing solutions for your arcing grenades and lob a couple over that wall while he's confused as to why you are messing around in your invertory instead of running headlong into his ambush. Enemy under the map? Glitch a few attack drones into a wall and laugh as he can't escape them due to a lack of things to jump on.

Robyrt:
Here's a counter-example: Capcom vs SNK 2.

Early on in the game's lifespan, an enormous "roll cancel" bug was discovered allowing characters to turn their special moves invulnerable. Players whined and called for a ban.
A couple years later, everybody was doing it, and the game actually ended up just as interesting as it was without roll cancels. It didn't even change the balance that much, because everybody could do it.

That sounds a lot like wave dashing in Smash Brothers Melee, which can lead to beautiful and exciting fights at high level competition, but introduces an incredibly steep learning curve that alienates a vast majority of players.

Great article. It is very similar to a poll question I put up two days ago:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.178110-Poll-Hacking-in-Online-Multiplayer-Games

If you haven't voted yet, please do so.

I knew that my actions were not entirely innocent, but I was following the school of thought that said it was better than the alternative (i.e. playing at a disadvantage because I didn't have access to the new weapons).

In Team Fortress 2, I personally think those who play with the original weapons are generally better than those who use the new ones, because they're skilled enough with them to use them without being at a disadvantage. Being mainstream in-game is, in my opinion, a failure.

Take the Demoman for example, and his new play styles after the War update. Anyone who plays TF2 knows that two of the unlockable weapons for the Demo are the Eyelander and the Chargin' Targe, a sword that allows for instant decapitations, and a small shield that enables the Demo to rush at the enemy, allowing them to deal a guaranteed critical hit at the high point of the charge. This gives the Demo a new role in the team; offense. Now I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, but Valve needs to take the noobs, lazy players and achievement farmers into account in future.

Since the release of the Soldier/Demo update, almost everyone instantly hit the grinding servers to grab the blade and the shield. Then they all rushed back into the regular servers, once they had the few achievements needed to unlock the two items, and started charging around the place decapitating the other team and getting into a 10-on-10 Demo-fest. Now, I played Demoman before the update, and played reasonably well. These days I've practically given up on the Scottish cyclops on account of being called a noob because I don't have the "cheap kill combo" as I put it. Instead, I stick to the old, tried-and-true sticky bomb launcher and scrumpy bottle, and they work far better than a sword and shield. The Demoman was originally designed for a defensive role. The weapons are also why I fought for the Soldier in the War; because I genuinely thought his new items were better than the Demo's.

While I'm on a roll, this one goes out to achievement grinders: uninstall the game. As soon as a new class update is released, the grinders will hit the achievement servers to, you guessed it, grind for achievements. This makes the server lists ridiculously populated with achievement servers, and little to no people play on a real server.
I have never used a grinder server, and I never will. I enjoy getting achievements. Sometimes I'll go out of my way just to get one that I find amusing at the time. The "Have a Plan" achievement for the Sniper made me laugh. A Sniper doesn't normally go round capturing the intelligence, so I did it for the lulz, completely ignoring the fact that Scouts can do the job three times as fast. And hey, I won the match for the team.

Back on topic: those people who grind for achievements, and subsequently new weapons, should have their items removed. An ironic punishment, but it works, although I have no idea how it would be enforced. Achievements should be for things that aren't planned ahead, such as using Jarate to extinguish a burning teammate, or notable accomplishments in the heat of battle, like taking out five enemies in a row without letting go of your trigger as a Heavy.

And with that, my rant of the day is complete, and I believe I've made my point(s). Enjoy. =D

I Eventually had to stop playing L4D for awhile due to exploiters. It always happened the same way, my team is up several thousand points and the other team can't possibly win. Instead of playing it out, or conceding, the opposing team would somehow managed to throw their Tank off the roof of mercy hospital. I never did figure out how they did it, but the end result was a tank that never died, could not be shot at and the helicopter never shows up.

CounterAttack:

I knew that my actions were not entirely innocent, but I was following the school of thought that said it was better than the alternative (i.e. playing at a disadvantage because I didn't have access to the new weapons).

In Team Fortress 2, I personally think those who play with the original weapons are generally better than those who use the new ones, because they're skilled enough with them to use them without being at a disadvantage. Being mainstream in-game is, in my opinion, a failure.

Take the Demoman for example, and his new play styles after the War update. Anyone who plays TF2 knows that two of the unlockable weapons for the Demo are the Eyelander and the Chargin' Targe, a sword that allows for instant decapitations, and a small shield that enables the Demo to rush at the enemy, allowing them to deal a guaranteed critical hit at the high point of the charge. This gives the Demo a new role in the team; offense. Now I'm not saying it's a bad idea in theory, but Valve needs to take the noobs, lazy players and achievement farmers into account in future.

Since the release of the Soldier/Demo update, almost everyone instantly hit the grinding servers to grab the blade and the shield. Then they all rushed back into the regular servers, once they had the few achievements needed to unlock the two items, and started charging around the place decapitating the other team and getting into a 10-on-10 Demo-fest. Now, I played Demoman before the update, and played reasonably well. These days I've practically given up on the Scottish cyclops on account of being called a noob because I don't have the "cheap kill combo" as I put it. Instead, I stick to the old, tried-and-true sticky bomb launcher and scrumpy bottle, and they work far better than a sword and shield. The Demoman was originally designed for a defensive role. The weapons are also why I fought for the Soldier in the War; because I genuinely thought his new items were better than the Demo's.

While I'm on a roll, this one goes out to achievement grinders: uninstall the game. As soon as a new class update is released, the grinders will hit the achievement servers to, you guessed it, grind for achievements. This makes the server lists ridiculously populated with achievement servers, and little to no people play on a real server.
I have never used a grinder server, and I never will. I enjoy getting achievements. Sometimes I'll go out of my way just to get one that I find amusing at the time. The "Have a Plan" achievement for the Sniper made me laugh. A Sniper doesn't normally go round capturing the intelligence, so I did it for the lulz, completely ignoring the fact that Scouts can do the job three times as fast. And hey, I won the match for the team.

Back on topic: those people who grind for achievements, and subsequently new weapons, should have their items removed. An ironic punishment, but it works, although I have no idea how it would be enforced. Achievements should be for things that aren't planned ahead, such as using Jarate to extinguish a burning teammate, or notable accomplishments in the heat of battle, like taking out five enemies in a row without letting go of your trigger as a Heavy.

And with that, my rant of the day is complete, and I believe I've made my point(s). Enjoy. =D

Valid points for sure. I definitely agree that sticky demo is superior to eyelander demo, but eyelander can be a force to reckon with and is pretty fun to play as well.

In the article, I was referencing to only the Medic achievements and the Medic weapons at that time, which was the only time I grinded for achievements. At that time, the Blautsauger and Ubersaw were blantant upgrades of the base weapons. Since the nerfs and tweaks, I have since gone back to the classic weapons for medic, but I do use Kritzkreig now and then (it's healing taunt has saved me more than once).

The other alternative that isn't mentioned in the article is the class spam and achievement farmers in pub servers, which I feel is infinitely worse. I've seen people give ubers to a scout when a demo is more appropriate for the job just to try for an achievement. Random drops and other things have lessen this to a certain degree but I can tell you that I see a lot more sollies these days than I'd prefer. Back when only achievements unlocked new items, it was handy for admins to tell people to go to an achievement server if their attempts were ruining the "team" aspect of the game. Similarly, you would tell someone to go to a 24/7 Two Fort server if they keep begging for a map change.

I'm still on the fence for achievement servers and I'm sure Valve was as well. However, idle servers did tip the scale towards the unsavoury and that is when they took action. My rationale is that you can excuse achievement servers for being the lesser evil (rather than deal with class spam, etc) but there really is no excuse for idling servers. Just play the damn game :p

I do think that developers should clearly state there stance on the use of certain practice but I also know that all gamers are assholes. For many gamers if you specifically tell them to not do something they will go out of there way to do it. On top of that, many will simply ignore developers because the exploit was an advantage they aren't willing to give up. Having a dialogue will help to solve some problems but its only going to put a dent in the problem since many already know its wrong and are still doing it anyways in the first placer and aren't going to change until its impossible.

Murray Chu:

Valid points for sure. I definitely agree that sticky demo is superior to eyelander demo, but eyelander can be a force to reckon with and is pretty fun to play as well.

In the article, I was referencing to only the Medic achievements and the Medic weapons at that time, which was the only time I grinded for achievements. At that time, the Blautsauger and Ubersaw were blantant upgrades of the base weapons. Since the nerfs and tweaks, I have since gone back to the classic weapons for medic, but I do use Kritzkreig now and then (it's healing taunt has saved me more than once).

The other alternative that isn't mentioned in the article is the class spam and achievement farmers in pub servers, which I feel is infinitely worse. I've seen people give ubers to a scout when a demo is more appropriate for the job just to try for an achievement. Random drops and other things have lessen this to a certain degree but I can tell you that I see a lot more sollies these days than I'd prefer. Back when only achievements unlocked new items, it was handy for admins to tell people to go to an achievement server if their attempts were ruining the "team" aspect of the game. Similarly, you would tell someone to go to a 24/7 Two Fort server if they keep begging for a map change.

I'm still on the fence for achievement servers and I'm sure Valve was as well. However, idle servers did tip the scale towards the unsavoury and that is when they took action. My rationale is that you can excuse achievement servers for being the lesser evil (rather than deal with class spam, etc) but there really is no excuse for idling servers. Just play the damn game :p

I understand your line of thinking. I just don't like sheeple in games; those who go with the flow of the uneducated masses to grinders or picking the same class as everyone else because apparently "it's better". No single class is better than any other, it's just that everyone has their advantages and disadvantages against each other class.

Some of the TF2 updates I am okay with. I mainly play Heavy, so the sandvich is a godsend for me. I use the shotgun once in a while, but it just isn't worth it if you have a much more powerful close range gun as your primary.

The War updates were rather disappointing. The eyelander is overpowered, and makes them even more deadly to heavies. It should make them more vulnerable, seeing as they are far closer to the heavies threat range.

CounterAttack:
[quote]Back on topic: those people who grind for achievements, and subsequently new weapons, should have their items removed. An ironic punishment, but it works, although I have no idea how it would be enforced. Achievements should be for things that aren't planned ahead, such as using Jarate to extinguish a burning teammate, or notable accomplishments in the heat of battle, like taking out five enemies in a row without letting go of your trigger as a Heavy.

As someone with 85,000 achievement points, I strongly disagree with this; the problem is more complex. Some of us get achievements solely to get achievements; by setting up weird achievements, the developers are encouraging sometimes nonsensical playstyles. I've played in boosting games (on legitimate servers) where I ran headfirst into turrets for 15 minutes to help engineers get kills, PGR3 games where we spend 10 minutes doing donuts and stunts before rolling across the finish line in tandem, and sillier things. It didn't bother anyone who wanted to play "legitimately."

The problems are 1) the devaluation of achievements and 2) griefing non-cheaters/boosters/exploiters.

The devaluation of achievements is, IMO, something brought on by the designers and other gamers themselves. Whether or not achievements "matter" is solely up to the individual... I mean, really, does getting "Nothing Special" on L4D really make you a better person? Everyone I know who glitched it freely admits to it, and the couple of people who got it legitimately get the respect that they've fairly earned. All the existence of the glitch means is that rather than judging someone by an icon on their gamercard you need to actually talk to them or, heaven forbid, play the game with them to see if they are any good.

The other problem is a lot trickier but has an equally simple solution: if someone is making sky turrets in TF2, blocking the elevators in L4D, doing air jumps in skate, whatever, and you aren't having fun playing with them then DON'T PLAY WITH THEM. I know how to do tons of things that the devs obviously never intended but I don't because the main purpose of multiplayer games isn't to win, despite what some people think... it's to HAVE FUN. And if you can have fun AND help others to have fun, that's a win for everyone.

Twilight_guy:
I do think that developers should clearly state there stance on the use of certain practice but I also know that all gamers are assholes. For many gamers if you specifically tell them to not do something they will go out of there way to do it. On top of that, many will simply ignore developers because the exploit was an advantage they aren't willing to give up. Having a dialogue will help to solve some problems but its only going to put a dent in the problem since many already know its wrong and are still doing it anyways in the first placer and aren't going to change until its impossible.

This is where the hints of punishment and rewards come in handy. It gives people a bigger incentive than just their feeble morals

CounterAttack:
I understand your line of thinking. I just don't like sheeple in games; those who go with the flow of the uneducated masses to grinders or picking the same class as everyone else because apparently "it's better". No single class is better than any other, it's just that everyone has their advantages and disadvantages against each other class.

By class spam I simply meant everyone playing Medic or Pyro after the update came out because everyone wanted to try for achievements and get their weapons. This was a huge problem for the first two updates and achievement servers really did help to reduce it to a certain extent.

This is one of the main problem, and a massive deterrance if you want to play online games. How much it pisses people off to hear devs say "working as intended".

The main reason i stopped playing wow is cause the classes were constantly being changed, this made them more or less homogenous... that and i realised it was noting but a grind fest.

95% of the time anything that even raises the question "Is this legitimate?" guarantees the answer "No." Human beings have a persistent habit of desperately trying to justify their behavior.

I cry foul on the concept of "The developers should tell us what's cheating." If it becomes de rigor to have all cheats pointed out then all cheats not pointed out are de facto legitimate. This is baaaaad. Ethical review is entirely lifted from the gamer and burdened to the developer such that even extremely obvious cheating guilelessly OK because it is not expected for the gamer to make his own moral reviews.

Achievements are one of the worst things to happen to gaming. Distinction has been lost between the physical accomplishment and the indicator of that accomplishment. There is also a terribly unhealthy sense of entitlement. Unlocks, achievements are now things that people need and deserve.

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here