Zero Punctuation: Heavy Rain

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The "Higurashi no Naku Koro ni" games are interesting in that the murderer is a different person in each ending. In at least one of them, YOU are the murderer (or at least become the murderer). However, the games are Japanese with no 'official' english translations. This makes them a little difficult to do a Zero Punctuation on.

For me, what totally shattered the sense of immersion was Norman Jayden's super detective powers. They were ridiculously cool, but zero-percent believable. If technology really worked like that, an episode of CSI would only take 15 minutes.

That was a good review quite funny but I think yahtzee is wrong, Heavy Rain may be slow placed but that is the point of it, it makes you get into the character's, and just to say this is every decission you make does make a difference there are over 7 endings. Also this is the only review that thinks it's a bad game this was a fail yahtzee.

BloodSquirrel:
Calling something mediocre and saying nothing good about it is giving it a bad review. He's given much worse, but it's still a bad review.

Are you disagreeing that Halo 3 is mediocre?

BloodSquirrel:
There are plenty of games/movies/music that it's cool to hate that, nonetheless, sell very well. Somebody must like them.

It doesn't follow that there's any actual worth in those things. Shit is popular all the time.

BloodSquirrel:
Never giving something higher praise than the nearest gaming forum will give it means that you're either incapable of developing your own opinions or just not being honest about them.

You're jumping to a conclusion there. Maybe all the cool-to-hate games Yahtzee hates are actually bad? Most games are.

If you don't have a problem with a specific review, aren't you just condemning Yahtzee based on this perception that it's likely an honest person will disagree with the majority?

Speaking of which, what about his bad reviews of popular games like Smash Brothers and Metal Gear Solid 4? There was a lot of disagreement over his asessment of Drake's Fortune 2, as well.

Insisting he like something most hate in order to deserve being taken seriously doesn't strike me as reasonable.

WHAT THE....NO ONE GOT BANHAMMERED IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES...

OT: I just wish I had a PS3. Or a lockpick...

1:43 = Cabury Cream Egg THank you Yahtzee. And the TARDIS isn't half bad either.

Thank christ I'm not the only person on earth who thought this "game" was a pile of shite!

Pure genius...

I like these preview because they are extremlly hilarious, once I literely fell out off my chair. I don't take them very seriously, because I really love RPG, but they always seem to have a point, something that we miss when we play a game and after we pay attention everything proves it right.

Just keep up good work Yahtzee.

Wow, all this criticism on quick time events, and they make an entire game out of it....

Agreed 100%. I liked everything BUT the ending. Lame as hell.

Frequen-Z:
Can someone who has completed Heavy Rain please tell me if there's any real spoilers in this? I wanna watch it like every other week but I don't want to have it spoiled.

There are some references which you wont get unless you've played the game. Nothing major is spoilt. I thought the review was quite well done. I disagree on a few points, but to each his own. I personally loved the game but have to agree that its a game meant to be experienced only once. The second play-through, just isn't the same. I tried, and gave up.

LordCuthberton:
WHAT THE....NO ONE GOT BANHAMMERED IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES...

OT: I just wish I had a PS3. Or a lockpick...

It's because the video was an hour early! The first-posters weren't prepared for the early release. I think random release times would silence them for good.

Awesome review as always Yahtzee.
Wank
Wank
Wank
LOL!!!

I actually thought I would be raving mad after this review, but this was excellent, funny and really spot-on. Except the "every time the killer is the same part", that I feel was really a nitpick.

Hey! Yahtzee is reviewing games again!

Intriguingly amusing it was too.

I often find myself in a rather awkward position when Zero Punctuation decides to review a game I personally enjoyed. Here I see Croshaw hitting pretty much all of the negative points and several of the positive ones I would bring up if I were writing the review, but presenting them in more or less the mirror opposite of the way my experience with the game went. To wit- I agree with the pacing- slow to begin yet developing greater momentum as the story unfolds. I agree with the interface- hard to get used to, but aiding in the immersion. The difference here is that I found the flaws to be minor sticking points far outweighed by the incredibly visceral moments, which I found occuring far more frequently than Yahtzee mentions here. Which forces me to ask- is Yahtzee harping on the flaws purely for comedic effect (the way he alludes to way back in his Bioshock review) or did his experience really just veer sharply left when mine went right?

I found the characters very sympathetic. The opening, for me, while not the most well paced (which is admittedly difficult to accomplish when the player is both getting used to the control scheme and allowed to accomplish the various tasks meant to move the plot in their own time- much like a point and click adventure game, the action early on essentially depends on hunting down the right items and actions to progress the storyline) also provided a snap shot of our protagonist's life. Its a hard thing to create empathy for a main character. Here Quantic Dreams is trying to do so through a series of familiar tasks- day to day routines that serve a mini-tutorial (you'll notice most of the frustratingly simple tasks like brushing your teeth or setting a kitchen table use the same control scheme as much more time critical and dangerous challeges later down the line) and attempt to create a sense of the familiar. As Yahtzee mentions, this serves as a way to juxatapose the introduction with the rest of the game (the color scheme is bright and cheerful, the actions are mundane and simple, and Ethan Mar's life is pretty much everything you can ask for if your a upper middle class American- successful job, nice home, beautiful wife, and two boys to love deerly). But even though I saw the tragedy coming a mile away, that didn't lessen the gut punch the game delivers one bit when the axe came down. I couldn't help but FEEL Ethan's loss.

I suspect that's the chief difference in my opinion of the game. I was there with the characters. I wanted to solve the mystery as much as they did, and consequently I ended up becoming invested in what happened to them. I'll admit, its been a long time since last I got that deeply invested in a game's plotline, and its a welcome reemergence.

In short, the flaws ZP focuses on here I considered minor compared to what the game brought to the table. Sure, it has a number of frustrations and annoyances to bring to the table, but for my part I found the overall game gripping, suspenseful, and engaging. I enjoyed unraveling the mystery, whether its chasing the clues as an investigator or being subjected to the games the killer wants to play as a desperate father trying to save his lost son. Meeting the challenges the game sets for you (whether its moving through some electrified booby traps or finding the right words to talk your way out of an intense hostage situation) is very tense and gives you a real sense that your decisions matter. That might be a bit of smoke and mirrors on the game's part- only a replay will let me see exactly which actions change the outcome of the storyline and which do not- but in any event the result remains a suspenseful and gripping experience.

So its an interactive story with QTE, like watching a badly paced film that shouts at you to press X.

I'd maybe try it if it was 10 instead of 40. Thats about what I'd pay for a film or book.

As it is Id have to buy a PS3 as well. At that price I'll read a book.

C'mon, Yahtzee when are you going to roast FFXIII??

Did anyone actually buy this game WITHOUT having the ending spoiled for them? I watched a few vids, walthroughs, and reviews for the game on youtube, (IGN gave it a 9 but then again, they give EVERYTHING a nine. It seemed like every I went some jackhole wrote "DASDAKILLA right der it's da guy! see him!? HE DID IT! HE DID IT, I hope I didn't spoil the game for you!"

"A critic offers criticism of something, in this instance, a game. If you are criticizing him for not giving Quantic Dream a lavish bouquet filled with praise, then you are not a legitimate critic in any sense of the word."

Actually, I feel Zero Punctuation doesn't fit your definition of a critic for very much the opposite reason. Croshaw focuses on the negative for the majority of his reviews. He often mentions positive aspects, which is good, but you'll rarely hear much in a game's favor unless it absolutely blew him away ala Portal or Silent Hill 2. I've begun to think of him as more a 'game comedian' than a critic- if what your looking for is a funny characterization of a game's flaws, look no further. If what you want is some bottom line, balanced opinions about whether to get the game or not, your better off looking elsewhere. Where I to base my choice in game based solely on ZP, I'd avoid most titles. Besides, I've found the funniest bits in most of his videos work best if I know which moments in game he's referencing. So, my advice is to decide whether to get the game BEFORE watching ZP, and just come to Yahtzee for the laughs.

"What characters were in this game exactly? Between the four protagonists, you could maybe muster up two dimensions between them."

The goal of a game like this one, in which a good deal of the story hangs on the perceived peril of some of the characters, is to try to get the player to empathize with those characters. In this case, the developers tried to do that by giving you a sense of the familiar- the daily routine of the main character will, one hopes, let the player get inside his head a bit and be there with him as he goes through the tragedy. There not really no way at all to FORCE the player to have this experience, though. All I can say for sure is it worked for me- I got invested in the characters, and the story was intensely gripping because of that. If the game can't grab you, all I can do is assume the experience is going to be much less visceral and engaging. I do wish everyone could enjoy the game as much as I did, but in the end its completely a matter of subjectivity.

"Personally, I'd rather have bonded with the character because they had some interesting quirk or were funny, or had some good cameraderie with the people around them, or were mysterious in some way, but I suppose that will have to do. I have seen the light!"

Sarcasm aside, I'd personally argue that lots of the characters do demonstrate many of these traits, depending on your choices as a player. Shelby is pretty friendly when he asks questions, Jayden has a drug addiction somehow related to this weird high tech equipment he uses, your left to wonder about the state of Ethan's sanity, and so on. As above, its entirely subjective as to how much or little depth the characters offer the player.

"it's hardly an either/or scenario between "emotionally immersive" vs. "heads blown off for no reason", as there are numerous games that can get the former without being pretentious swipes from bad films (see: Silent Hill 2, Psychonauts, Ico, Shenmue, Assassin's Creed, hell you can argue GTAIV, the Metal Gear series, or the Final Fantasy series all do this)."

Two things there- first, there is quite a lot of action and violence in Heavy Rain. The fight sequences are pretty intense in my experience, for instance. Secondly, most of the games you mention draw their material from other sources- Silent Hill 2 uses stories from Steven King and concepts like Dante's Inferno (notice how the game is constantly 'descending' as you progress), venturing into mindscapes was hardly an original concept when Psychonauts came out, Ico uses one of the oldest plot devices ever told (save girl from castle) to drive its narrative, Shenmue follows the same plot of a dozen kung fu movies (those set in the modern day, at any rate), and Assassin's Creed is essentially Prince of Persia in a sandbox world with a clumsy Davinci Code storyline that mixes in about a dozen conspiracy theories. Most games are trying to emulate a genre told in other mediums. What matters is if it was executed well and if it offers surprises despite taking elements from other media. In my opinion, Heavy Rain does those things and does them well.

I had to stop the video half way through I am laughin so hard XD

Ok, give me a sec and I will be able to continue . . . Ok Im ready, pressin play again

-M

Ok, that was a fun video // So what I have learned from it is that if you can buy the game with a preloaded save game which is about 2hours into it, skipping all the boring bit, you will have something good on your hands

But as an after thought, my guess is all the slow, boring, bits at the start are so you can just get use to the controls for the later parts of the game were every second counts when it comes to pressing the right button at the right time

-M

I really liked this game, but like he said the game starts reeeeealy slow.
But once the game picks up, u wont be able to put it down.

I'm glad I'm not the only one refusing to refer to HR as "game". Still, it's not a bad movie, even if it is plagued with QTEs..

You were getting dull and repetitive Mr. Yahtzee, its nice to finally see you enjoy writing and reading this review.

good laughing

i agree with the wankers bit... but, i am surprised you did not make a comment on the referential "excuse" of the game being so goddamn slow/shit at the beginning: It's to immerse you!, to make you feel something for the dudes... or the dude's kid.. <--- it's a nice, overplayed excuse ain't it?

either way... i was just WAITING for this to be reviewed... do you ever fucking disappoint? (wii owners don't count...)

no spoiler here :)

DAMN dude, you should write "spoiler aler" or else you`ll get 1000th of hate e-mails, luckily for me im finished with the game!

Nothri, you sly dog you, quoting me without the quote function, so I won't know you've done it and try to reply to you. ;)

nothri:
"What characters were in this game exactly? Between the four protagonists, you could maybe muster up two dimensions between them."

The goal of a game like this one, in which a good deal of the story hangs on the perceived peril of some of the characters, is to try to get the player to empathize with those characters. In this case, the developers tried to do that by giving you a sense of the familiar- the daily routine of the main character will, one hopes, let the player get inside his head a bit and be there with him as he goes through the tragedy. There not really no way at all to FORCE the player to have this experience, though. All I can say for sure is it worked for me- I got invested in the characters, and the story was intensely gripping because of that. If the game can't grab you, all I can do is assume the experience is going to be much less visceral and engaging. I do wish everyone could enjoy the game as much as I did, but in the end its completely a matter of subjectivity.

"Personally, I'd rather have bonded with the character because they had some interesting quirk or were funny, or had some good cameraderie with the people around them, or were mysterious in some way, but I suppose that will have to do. I have seen the light!"

Sarcasm aside, I'd personally argue that lots of the characters do demonstrate many of these traits, depending on your choices as a player. Shelby is pretty friendly when he asks questions, Jayden has a drug addiction somehow related to this weird high tech equipment he uses, your left to wonder about the state of Ethan's sanity, and so on. As above, its entirely subjective as to how much or little depth the characters offer the player.

You know what? That's a fair point. I still find a lot of it to be one-dimensional, but you make a couple good points. I guess my main problem is that most of their quirks and functions only exist when the plot requires them to, and are quickly forgotten. Ethan's sanity might be in question, but all the signs that actually show it are gone by the time his son is kidnapped (would have been a lot better if he kept suffering visions and blackouts throughout the game), FBI Guy's addiction doesn't really resemble addiction at all (the real thing's more grotesque and unpleasant). Shelby, like I said, approaches interesting, but the part that I thought was worth noting about him was his asthma, and that gets forgotten. Perhaps he prefers to talk his way out of scenarios because he knows that a brawl might trigger an attack? Nope, it's just there, as when he brawls, he still moves like an action hero, despite being middle-aged, asthmatic, and paunchy. But, like you said, subjectivity.

"it's hardly an either/or scenario between "emotionally immersive" vs. "heads blown off for no reason", as there are numerous games that can get the former without being pretentious swipes from bad films (see: Silent Hill 2, Psychonauts, Ico, Shenmue, Assassin's Creed, hell you can argue GTAIV, the Metal Gear series, or the Final Fantasy series all do this)."

Two things there- first, there is quite a lot of action and violence in Heavy Rain. The fight sequences are pretty intense in my experience, for instance. Secondly, most of the games you mention draw their material from other sources- Silent Hill 2 uses stories from Steven King and concepts like Dante's Inferno (notice how the game is constantly 'descending' as you progress), venturing into mindscapes was hardly an original concept when Psychonauts came out, Ico uses one of the oldest plot devices ever told (save girl from castle) to drive its narrative, Shenmue follows the same plot of a dozen kung fu movies (those set in the modern day, at any rate), and Assassin's Creed is essentially Prince of Persia in a sandbox world with a clumsy Davinci Code storyline that mixes in about a dozen conspiracy theories. Most games are trying to emulate a genre told in other mediums. What matters is if it was executed well and if it offers surprises despite taking elements from other media. In my opinion, Heavy Rain does those things and does them well.

I didn't say "Heavy Rain" had no action, in fact the action's pretty damn ludicrous and over-the-top in spots. What I was saying was that it wasn't one vs. the other. And yes, my examples do borrow on very time-worn storylines (especially Ico), but they offer surprises. Silent Hill 2 might be similar to the Inferno, but it offered up the idea of a whole town as a convergent point for multiple realities distorted by the psychological problems of its victims; Psychonauts turns similar problems into a wacky carnival funhouse that borders on parody; Shenmue has the hero balancing his kung-fu ass-kicking with far more mundane tasks, like Heavy Rain attempts to, but does it with a mild bit of humor; and Assassin's Creed might have that derivative conspiracy thriller thing going on, but the real meat of that story was Altair's spiritual awakening, and went for a more Zen approach to gameplay (try that game when you're absolutely calm and collected, and it's a completely different experience than if you approach it with the usual button-mashing flurry that most other games offer, it's weird). Ico also offers up it's own twist, by making the two main characters unable to communicate, except through hand gestures. The relationship between them takes on a completely different dynamic as a result.

The thing is, I didn't really get that with Heavy Rain, it just seemed to me that David Cage was sticking one cliche to another cliche and calling it 'emotional,' but all I could see were the movies it took from. "Oh, there's 'Saw,' and that's that crappy 'Righteous Kill' movie." The only difference is that the characters were able to fritter about a bit (I was especially annoyed at the "Saw" bits, since I find the whole 'self-righteous killer making his victims appreciate life/family/whatever' angle to be insulting and stupid).

I will give one thing to Heavy Rain, as much as I hated it: it's the first game since Shenmue to really try and fit everyday living into a workable game. That at least counts for something.

Fronzel:

Are you disagreeing that Halo 3 is mediocre?

Yes.

It doesn't follow that there's any actual worth in those things. Shit is popular all the time.

You're jumping to a conclusion there. Maybe all the cool-to-hate games Yahtzee hates are actually bad? Most games are.

If you don't have a problem with a specific review, aren't you just condemning Yahtzee based on this perception that it's likely an honest person will disagree with the majority?

Speaking of which, what about his bad reviews of popular games like Smash Brothers and Metal Gear Solid 4? There was a lot of disagreement over his asessment of Drake's Fortune 2, as well.

Insisting he like something most hate in order to deserve being taken seriously doesn't strike me as reasonable.

You seem to have a funademntal inability to understand this whole "independent thought" thing. Just because the crowd tells you that something is shit doesn't mean that it's shit, and there's a difference between agreeing with the majority sometimes and always agreeing with them (and, right now, the majority agrees that it's cool to bash popular things). Do you have any idea how many 'classic' works today weren't that popular when first created? Did you know that Shakespeare wasn't considered anything special until well after his death? If you can't get your head around that basic concept, then you simply lack the potential to understand what a real critic is.

Do you even realize that you're engaging in the same behavior that makes it impossible for me to take Yahtzee seriously?

Huh... less comments than usual considering this game was pretty touted and thus invites discussion.

PxDn Ninja:
Of course it was, the game never really hid that it was anything other than that.

I felt the game was fantastic. Excellent story and beautiful characterization.

I felt the same way, especially after the first time I beat it.

Great endings (though not always for the characters).

You killed a man?

This was the most clever review in a long time. So well written and such catchy metaphors. THIS is why I watch Zero Punctuation. You would think Yahtzee would run out of clever similies and metaphors, but he just keeps coming up with new ones. I love it and feel like it makes me a better writer for being exposed to it. I've played maybe three games that Yahtzee has reviewed, but I doubt anyone watches these things to see if they should get the game or not.

grimlockfly:

A1:

VGFreak1225:
I'm surprised he went through the review without touching all the plot holes. Easily a prime opportunity for Yahtzee to do what he does best, and it was one of Heavy Rain's most damning flaws.

It seems to me that all the plot hole accusations that have been directed at Heavy Rain are largely misguided and overblown. I've argued this before but Heavy Rain is a game that frequently pushes against the boundaries of plausibility but never actually crosses the line in the way that some other games have such as Indigo Prophecy or Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.

Most, if not all, of the alleged plot holes (or oddities or inconsistencies within the plot of the game) can be easily explained away. And Yahtzee has strongly indicated that he has no problem with explaining things away. This is evident with his review of Condemned 2 and with his latest extra punctuation piece on Audio logs.

SPOILEREST SPOILER ALERT THAT EVER SPOILERED EVER!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

1)What the hell is the deal with the black outs? OKAY, sure they started after the accident, but what did they serve up, other than a contrived excuse to seperate you from your son and make you think Ethan's the killer? it's completely forgotten about another hour in. I thought i'd be struggling with black outs (even getting better) through the game. OR if this game was really awesome, Ethan witnessed a murder during a black out. That would explain being mister mumbles about drowned kids. and why that street? is it because what's his face lived there? why is he going to that specific street?

2)if i'm the killer, why did i shut the window? why wouldn't i think, "huh, the killer must have escaped through there..." and went about my business...

3) the hell happened to red herring killer?

4) why couldn't they at least tell me why he did it? what set him off? what is the reasoning to kill? why wait until his twilight years to get started on this nonsense. (and i love the twist, in theory) the moment where he was burning the evidence, THAT is when the 'read the thoughts' mechanic should have been used. I don't need him standing around in a bullshit monologue, have him monologue in thought, and thus it would have matched up with your game choices: did he feel guilt? or was he a cold operator? I thought the only reason you CAN"T read his thoughts at that point was because he was protecting the ACTUAL killer.

5) the fact that Blake isn't facing down you vs. the actual killer is the most INCREDIBLE missed opportunity. depending on how well you treated him, he'll choose between shooting you or his best friend...

6) i'll have to play again to double check, but the murders started 3 years ago. Ethan's accident/tragedy happened 2 years ago. he almost certainly has an alibi for at least the first year this nonsense started.

7) Dr. who guy has no personal stakes in the matter. I was imagining that he was Ethan's estranged brother, getting too close to the case. it's kinda crap that Ethan's not taking the fight to the guy that started all this.

8) the sex scene was fine by me. dude's at the end of his rope, prepared to die, and pretty much dead certain he'd never see his kid alive again, or survive. not to mention the past two years. let the man have some respite. (i was also pretty sure that no matter how quickly i found the son, he'd be 'almost drowning.')

9) to another destructoid article, Ethan and I were sick of playing by second rate jigsaw's antics. I didn't come all this way to die! I'll figure out how to save my kid on my own. (and i did, yay)

10) In the clock fixer's I'm certain I didn't have enough time to murder that old man, and i'm almost certain they cheated that last bit. that's probably the hole that pissed me off most.

11) the motives/past for Ethan is pretty straight forward. it's just that no one else's is quite so clear. and i have the unfortunate suspicion that that is what Heavy Rain Chronicles DLC is for. Worst of all, this is what's going to happen, give David Cage 20 more dollars for the backstory you need for the game to make sense.

First of all I would like to make it clear that I'm very sorry if what I'm about to write comes off as rude at any time but I'm have some things which I believe need to be said. I'm sorry to say this but I'm not quite sure if it's clear to you what plot holes actually are. Unanswered questions and plot holes are not the same thing. An unanswered question is simply an unanswered question. But a plot hole happens when such an unanswered question is actually essential with regard to the progression and outcome of the story, hence the "plot" part.

In light of this the only instance on your list that actually constitutes a plot hole is number one.

As for the other ones:

2) You're being a bit too vague.

3) Irrelevant. There are actually numerous characters that can be referred to as "red herring killers" but what happens to them doesn't matter because it's not important to the overall story.

4) Okay, this one isn't making all that much sense. Throughout the course of the story it's made rather abundantly clear exactly what the motivation of the Origami killer is. Certain details such as the timing don't constitute a plot hole because they are not relevant to the progression or outcome of the story. They're just answered questions. The important thing is the motivation of the killer, and that is revealed over the course of the game. Although admittedly some people may have trouble understanding it. And I'm also not sure if the Origami Killer is as old as you seem to think he/she is.

5) A missed opportunity doesn't constitute a plot hole. Or in other words just because one would have preferred that something happen a different way doesn't make it a plot hole.

6) I noticed that too. But on the other hand Ethan for most of the game obviously isn't thinking clearly, which is perfectly understandable considering the circumstances and especially with regard to the blackouts and nightmares (please refer to what I said about the first thing you listed). And the alibi really isn't all that tight. No one would have actually been able to definitively establish beyond any doubt that the tragedy that happened 2 years ago was actually the cause of everything.

7) I assume that you're referring to Jayden. It doesn't matter if he doesn't have any personal stake in the case. He's involved because it's his job. And he takes his job very seriously. That's his motivation.

8) Okay now this one I find a bit confusing. There really doesn't seem to be any actual complaint listed here. But I will say this about the sex scene. When emotions and stress are running high then there are many things that can happen. Human behavior in general is often unpredictable and illogical. I think history has shown that human beings can be and often are unpredictable and illogical beings. Therefore for the sex scene in this game is plausible enough. I think this may also apply to the second thing on your list and possibly the ninth. Anyway, I assume then that you're referring to the rain issue. As far as the story is concerned nobody is ever able to definitively and accurately predict how the weather and rain will behave exactly. Therefore there's no actual plot hole. The rain serves as an essential plot device that may very well constitute something resembling Deus Ex Machina. But there's no plot hole.

9) This doesn't constitute any plot hole either. If you're wondering why Ethan would want to go through all those trials it may have something to do with the fact that it's what the killer wants and that defying the killer's will before Shaun was safe would have been very dangerous and risky.

10) I can actually understand why you or anyone would feel cheated by this instance. But this kind of thing has been known to happen before. I guess you could say that this is Heavy Rain's version of the literary technique known as the unreliable narrator. I can readily remember at least one instance when Anne Rice did the same thing. Still, it's exactly because of this "cheating" that your original perception of the timing of this event is rendered irrelevant.

11) Ethan without a doubt has the strongest motivation. But the other character's also have theirs. As I already mentioned Jayden's motivation is that it's his job and he takes his job very seriously. That is made clear pretty much from the start. Madison's motivation is made clear when she explains herself to Ethan shortly after the sex scene. And Scott's motivation is made abundantly clear in the second half of the game.

Once again sorry if this comes off as rude but it seems to me that you are confusing the idea of plot holes with stuff that simply didn't suit your own personal tastes. I also fear that you may have gotten tripped up by your own perception. Just because one wasn't able to see something doesn't me that it's not there. One may have simply missed it for one reason or another.

I think you might also want to get a look at the review of the game on Gametrailers.com because it seems to have at least some relevance with regard to this particular topic:

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/review-heavy-rain/61846

The first thing you list does indeed seem to constitute a plot hole. Why is this? Because it's a question that is important to the overall progression and outcome of the story and yet the answer does by all accounts seems to be conspicuously absent from the game. I could think of at least a few different possible explanations but the information doesn't seem to be present in the game.

But even so I don't think this really constitutes a deal breaker.

If you would like to continue this debate I will gladly accommodate you. However, I strongly urge you to simply send me a personal message as opposed to posting on this thread. Let us please stop with the the posting of the spoilers on the forums. I don't think it's fair to other people.

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