Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

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As much as I agree with Yahtzee, I find that FFVII and VIII were the best Final Fantasy games.

Caiti Voltaire:

I believe his point was that you can say they're over 16 all you want, it doesn't really change the fact that Vanille looks like puberty hasn't quite finished with 'em.

Because god forbid, with 3 characters being adults and one being actually middle age, it's a [/i]carnal sin[/i] to have a girl that looks younger.

beecause you know, childish ladies don't exist in reality.

Please...

Jbird:
I think I'm about to give up on this game. It's getting really, really, really intolerable. And I'm finally at the half-way point, too.

I mean, spending up to 20+ minutes at a time with certain enemies and bosses, in addition to repeating the fights upon failure for the same length? Constantly switching between Paradigms, so as to hope I can beat up the enemies quicker? Desperately waiting for that f*cking Stagger meter-bullsh*t to fill up, but never will because it doesn't feel like it? F*ck that noise.

If it takes you 20+ minutes to beat ANY boss before chapter 11 you're seriously doing something wrong.

Abriael:
]
Because god forbid, with 3 characters being adults and one being actually middle age, it's a [/i]carnal sin[/i] to have a girl that looks younger.

beecause you know, childish ladies don't exist in reality.

Please...

They don't generally, at least not in a physical sense, outside of hormone deficiencies or medical ailments. People age and hit puberty differently, this is a well established fact, but also a well established fact is that the Japanese hentai crowd has this tendency to animate schoolgirls that are supposed to be barely legal and look like they definitely aren't legal. Now, in fairness, we do this in our pornography too, but that doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

1000 year door is the only RPG i would put in my top ten games of all time (around number 6 in my book.) But it was entertaining and had a simple story.Also what was with the shower scenes?

Caiti Voltaire:
-snip-

If you could come down to the level of us common "fanboys" for a moment and realize that a story doesn't have to be wildly complex or introspectively prophetic to be considered "good" or even "entertaining." Just because stories don't stimulate your intellectual erogenous zone and are simple by nature doesn't make them awful or poorly written. That being said, I'd be wasting internet to try and make you see outside yourself for just a moment and realize that your definition of good does not equate to "good" in general. Planscape: Torment was indeed a fantastic game, but that doesn't mean that Final Fantasy VI or Earthbound were not equally fantastic for different reasons. While you may feel I'm part of the "mindless" mainstream because I value different facets of storytelling, I can easily out debate you on the merits of what it means to craft a good cohesive story using examples you feel are contrite, shallow or mindless; and I can do that without insulting your intelligence or coming off like an arrogant prick. Believe me, it's quite possible to have a good debate without making yourself seem like you have a chip on your shoulder equating in size to your superiority complex. Try it.

If you want to bring semantics into the foray and say that in order to have the moniker of RPG on the (PC only apparently) box art, that's fine; but I'll have to play my linguistics card and say that things like genre's are defined by the ebb and flow of the art they pertain to; just try and define what "metal" music is... go ahead. The fact that the idea of "role playing" is so ambiguous by the very definition of its contained words would automatically lend itself to having more than one set definition by nature. It's obvious that you like what you like and if something doesn't appeal to that sense of your personal preference then it's written off as "bad" before it even has a chance, that's fine... but seriously...

chill the 'eff out. You just sound bitter and mean.

Caiti Voltaire:

They don't generally, at least not in a physical sense, outside of hormone deficiencies or medical ailments. People age and hit puberty differently, this is a well established fact, but also a well established fact is that the Japanese hentai crowd has this tendency to animate schoolgirls that are supposed to be barely legal and look like they definitely aren't legal. Now, in fairness, we do this in our pornography too, but that doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Ladies in their early twenties can easily look like they're in their late teens. Our whole "barely legal" porn industry (not to mention actual people out in the street, i know quite a few girls that look much younger than they are) is proof of that.

In any case, it's TWO young characters, compared to 3 adults and one in his middle age. How comes I'm not surprised that stereotype-mongers like Yatzhee put the accent on the younger ones? No matter if they're the minority.

Scroll up to read the rest of her post.

Caiti Voltaire:

It's really, really hard not to come off as an elitist snob here, because it really is the difference between night and day here. We have shallow, poorly written set pieces which like some sort of manifestation of the Twilight series somehow capture the imagination of the mindless mainstream, and then we have actual thoughtfully-designed and -written games which have well-designed gameplay and compelling stories.

It's the same story throughout history. A minority believes one thing and the masses believe another. Who's right? It all comes down to the definition of greatness. What makes something great? Does it stand up on its own, against time, despite not being appreciated? Or is it great because the majority of the world believe it to be?

The problem here is human nature. No one can work fast enough to produce games on the level they're expected (Graphically, of course) in time to pay the bills. A game company that takes too long to make a game finds itself not making the game anymore, no matter how much was completed. -See DUKE NUKEM FOREVER- We know the 'Why' to producing a good game, and it's not just a simple because. The 'How' 'Who' 'What' and even the 'Where' are all unanswered. It's mathematical.

How* much can I* (Any Game Company) get away with in order to make a profit in X*(Where) country? = The Why, shortened to fit those variables.
You notice I left out the what, which is because the What ends up being anything an all.

Then, let us not forget being familiar with something for so long you ignore the flaws. I'd like to see more demos as a means of beta testing, not simply as a tool to sell a final product.

Well, before I do anything else, I have to say that I hope Mr. Croshaw has a nice miniskirt on hand.
Vanille is 519 years old.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Vanille
So, yeah. The next video should be highly entertaining.
(Vanille's character's actually one of the best in the game. There's tons of character development. The whole damn game is based on the motivations of the characters.)

First, I don't get how you can complain about the uncanny valley in XIII, when you had no complaints about them in, say Silent Hill 2. I played SH2 and found the realistic movements of the characters in the Full Motion Videos to be... unnerving. In XIII they look natural and flow. A character freaking out looks like a character freaking out. Though, that was in hour 10, and you didn't get that far.

I really want to attack your view on the character designs, but I'm inclined to agree. To a point. FFIX, XII, and XIII all have reasonable designs.

I honestly don't know what most people on this site have against JRPGs. Sure, you go into a game expecting to hate it, you'll hate it (I barely made it through the tutorial of The Darkness, not even getting the titular beast). I have a friend who is, in his own words, slogging through Fallout 3, what was called "Game of the Year".

I want to say more, I really do. I just can't get myself in that gear since I'm in the middle of doing an English paper, but I will get back to this.

Abriael:

Ladies in their early twenties can easily look like they're in their late teens. Our whole "barely legal" porn industry (not to mention actual people out in the street, i know quite a few girls that look much younger than they are) is proof of that.

In any case, it's TWO young characters, compared to 3 adults and one in his middle age. How comes I'm not surprised that stereotype-mongers like Yatzhee put the accent on the younger ones? No matter if they're the minority.

If you have a difficult time telling the difference, attempt thinking with the brain in your head at some time instead of the one in you pants, there are marked physical differences which really aren't that difficult to discern. Wikipedia it sometime, you may find it educational.

Branston Pickle, fantasy world Dizzy, Thief, Valve and Portal. Be appeased of great Olympian.

Brain_Cleanser:
Well, before I do anything else, I have to say that I hope Mr. Croshaw has a nice miniskirt on hand.
Vanille is 519 years old.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Vanille
So, yeah. The next video should be highly entertaining.
(Vanille's character's actually one of the best in the game. There's tons of character development. The whole damn game is based on the motivations of the characters.)

If she is 519, when did she stop aging? 15?

mjc0961:

The Critic:
Granted, I still play Pokemon games, for some inexplicable reason (see my avatar). Probably nostalgia, but I could be missing something.

Probably because that Pokémon is one of the few (maybe only even, I don't know) JRPGs that actually allows for customization. Sure, you're always the same kid doing the same thing every time if you keep restarting the game... But you have 493 different monsters to choose from to be on your team (AKA party to those who aren't familar with Pokémon), and of the many various moves they can learn, you can only get 4 per monster. There are so many different combination to come up with there, it's frightening. And that's even BEFORE you toss that EV stuff into the mix!

So, yeah. Pokémon isn't just another ho-hum watch a lot of boring cutscenes of people with stupid outfits like a lot of other JRPGs are.

Good points.

Abriael:

Jbird:
I think I'm about to give up on this game. It's getting really, really, really intolerable. And I'm finally at the half-way point, too.

I mean, spending up to 20+ minutes at a time with certain enemies and bosses, in addition to repeating the fights upon failure for the same length? Constantly switching between Paradigms, so as to hope I can beat up the enemies quicker? Desperately waiting for that f*cking Stagger meter-bullsh*t to fill up, but never will because it doesn't feel like it? F*ck that noise.

If it takes you 20+ minutes to beat ANY boss before chapter 11 you're seriously doing something wrong.

That's usually the case with these games, for me. I tend to do a lot of things different than other people because I don't read into something or ignore it all together.

Jbird:
That's usually the case with these games, for me. I tend to do a lot of things different than other people because I don't read into something or ignore it all together.

Do you use libra on the bosses (or librascope with those that have multiple targets)?

Hexami:

If she is 519, when did she stop aging? 15?

I'd say 15 or 14.

Hexami:
Scroll up to read the rest of her post.

Caiti Voltaire:

It's really, really hard not to come off as an elitist snob here, because it really is the difference between night and day here. We have shallow, poorly written set pieces which like some sort of manifestation of the Twilight series somehow capture the imagination of the mindless mainstream, and then we have actual thoughtfully-designed and -written games which have well-designed gameplay and compelling stories.

It's the same story throughout history. A minority believes one thing and the masses believe another. Who's right? It all comes down to the definition of greatness. What makes something great? Does it stand up on its own, against time, despite not being appreciated? Or is it great because the majority of the world believe it to be?

The problem here is human nature. No one can work fast enough to produce games on the level they're expected (Graphically, of course) in time to pay the bills. A game company that takes too long to make a game finds itself not making the game anymore, no matter how much was completed. -See DUKE NUKEM FOREVER- We know the 'Why' to producing a good game, and it's not just a simple because. The 'How' 'Who' 'What' and even the 'Where' are all unanswered. It's mathematical.

How* much can I* (Any Game Company) get away with in order to make a profit in X*(Where) country? = The Why, shortened to fit those variables.
You notice I left out the what, which is because the What ends up being anything an all.

Then, let us not forget being familiar with something for so long you ignore the flaws. I'd like to see more demos as a means of beta testing, not simply as a tool to sell a final product.

I'm not sure it's worth arguing dear, they're pretty convinced they're right and not going to listen, and that the games they like are decent games that have no flaws and shit rainbows. While there is a certain degree of lateral interpretation for taste it doesn't really change the fact that expecting reasonable argument over a Yahtzee thread which fanboys are filling with drool and spunk is kind of like trying to bash down an iron door with your bare hands, you might actually accomplish it, but when you have to bandage up your bloodied stumps and take a good look at what you're doing, you come to realise that whilst you may have accomplished something, you really aren't much better for it in fact you're worse off.

With that in mind I think I'm bowing out of this thread before I lose my marbles.

Abriael:
snip

And yet you have a japanese art style character as your avatar, which makes you way, way more biased. Same way a bias I and many others share with Yahtzee (inb4 another post about yahtzee bandwagon) makes us notice those dumb, dumb things characters do, among other things, your bias towards the japanese culture makes you overlook all that.

It amuses me when yahtzee pretends to know what he's talking about ^^

In Close i don't really care if I'm not 'playing' it, it's mysteriousness and it's "what the funk is really going on" storytelling has left me confused and determined to finish it and I'm liking it; even i admit a cutscene every 5 steps is a bit much but i don't care
Cutscenes these days are a lot like Random Battles there's many of them and eventually they end >.>

Now excuse me while i go catch that funkin Groudon in SoulSilver >.<

Caiti Voltaire:

If you have a difficult time telling the difference, attempt thinking with the brain in your head at some time instead of the one in you pants, there are marked physical differences which really aren't that difficult to discern. Wikipedia it sometime, you may find it educational.

And of course it takes less than three posts to see someone around this kind of discussion starting to move to personal attacks :D

I'm sorry if I don't make a complete physical exam to all the girls I come across, and if that mean "thinking with the brain in my pants" (not really, and I'm not sorry, but yanno...). But I'm sorry to say, despite your "market physical differences" ladies that look younger than they age exist, and aren't even that uncommon, expecially in the early twenties.

Next time I come across one, I'll be sure to ask her to let me examine her growth in detail. Maybe it'll work as a pickup line :D Scratch that, since we're at it, care to volunteer?

ciortas1:
And yet you have a japanese art style character as your avatar, which makes you way, way more biased. Same way a bias I and many others share with Yahtzee (inb4 another post about yahtzee bandwagon) makes us notice those dumb, dumb things characters do, among other things, your bias towards the japanese culture makes you overlook all that.

LOL!

Of course having an anime styled character in my avatar makes me biased uh? I wonder what having crackers in yours makes you.
For your information, my friendly neighborhood smartie, I play both Japanese and Western games, RPG or not, i move with uncanny agility between Bioware's RPGs, Bethesda's RPGs (I've been a very active Oblivion modder), The Witcher, Drakensang and various JRPGs both new and old, love Silent Hunter 5 and Dawn of War 2 just as much as Yakuza 3, appreciate Assassin's Creed as much as Ninja Gaiden and have fun on Il-2 Sturmovik as much as on Ace Combat.
Ultimately, I was probably already playing Hillsfar, Pool of Radiance and the other AD&D based RPGs by SSI while quite a few people around here (Yathzee included) were busy crawling out of their mother's womb.

So I'm afraid not, the fact that I lived in Japan and know their culture enough to appreciate it as much as my native Italian culture (as opposed to some people here, again Yathzee included, that go into a cultural shock as soon as they see a pair of almond-shaped eyes), and that I happened to chose a drawing I liked more than others, doesn't make me biased.

The only bias here is that against Japanese games, that some western gamers (and wannabe journalists that turn into stereotype-mongers) seem to have. It's always sad that diversity tends to cause that much fear and hatred.

Hexami:

Brain_Cleanser:
Well, before I do anything else, I have to say that I hope Mr. Croshaw has a nice miniskirt on hand.
Vanille is 519 years old.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Vanille
So, yeah. The next video should be highly entertaining.
(Vanille's character's actually one of the best in the game. There's tons of character development. The whole damn game is based on the motivations of the characters.)

If she is 519, when did she stop aging? 15?

19, when she was basically dropped into Cryostasis.
Long story.

You have simplified RPGs with "un convoluted" game mechanics and even questionable story coherency, of which most JRPGs and actiony western RPGs like mass effect and dragon age fall into ,then there are the ultra RPG game thats really a film and not a game RPG game like FF13,and then you have an RPG that have something more in their level designs,something more in their character classes, something more in their play mechanics, something more in their writing and are just well made flaws and all like Fallout 1-2,Arcanume,Golden Sun 1-2,FF4,FF6 and FF9 even FFmystic quest,CHrono trigger,Breath of fire 1,2,and 4,Grandia 1-2, Wild arms 1 and 2,Dragon Warroir 2,3,4 and even 8,ect,ect,ect,ect we don't get many games like these made these days..........

Ahh Yahtzee. Half the fun of anything he does is watching the reaction of the fanboys. You can argue your point all you like the fact your putting in all this effort to defend a gods damn video game makes you a fanboy, or girl, gotta stay PC and such.

FFXIII has been particularly delicious in collecting the whiners. In this thread alone there's been some over the top melodrama from a fair few individuals (you know who you are) and one has to wonder why they get so worked up over what is essentially just software. Surely if you enjoyed it that much what Yahtzee says wouldn't bother you.

He's bagged out plenty of games I've liked and I still haven't shoe horned in a wall of text complaining how he's a "hack" or how he should "stop defending his review". Makes you think they don't like the game as much as they say they do. Are you trying to drown out that niggling voice in the back of your head by whining at the reviewer? I'm not sure, thats the only reason I can think of to explain why these people are so pissy.

But of course I'm trying to talk reason to the slavering fanboy hordes, which is like trying to drink the ocean through a straw. Oh well.

NickCooely:
Ahh Yahtzee. Half the fun of anything he does is watching the reaction of the fanboys. You can argue your point all you like the fact your putting in all this effort to defend a gods damn video game makes you a fanboy, or girl, gotta stay PC and such.

Actually the other half of the fun is seeing the reaction of HIS fanboys to the ones that dare criticize his rants. You know, you can argue your point all you like, but the fact that you're putting all this effort to defend a pseudo-journalist makes you a fanboy, or girl. Gotta stay PC and such :D

PS: Don't follow too closely the example of your Idol. Punctuation is important :D

NickCooely:
Ahh Yahtzee. Half the fun of anything he does is watching the reaction of the fanboys. You can argue your point all you like the fact your putting in all this effort to defend a gods damn video game makes you a fanboy, or girl, gotta stay PC and such.

FFXIII has been particularly delicious in collecting the whiners. In this thread alone there's been some over the top melodrama from a fair few individuals (you know who you are) and one has to wonder why they get so worked up over what is essentially just software. Surely if you enjoyed it that much what Yahtzee says wouldn't bother you.

He's bagged out plenty of games I've liked and I still haven't shoe horned in a wall of text complaining how he's a "hack" or how he should "stop defending his review". Makes you think they don't like the game as much as they say they do. Are you trying to drown out that niggling voice in the back of your head by whining at the reviewer? I'm not sure, thats the only reason I can think of to explain why these people are so pissy.

But of course I'm trying to talk reason to the slavering fanboy hordes, which is like trying to drink the ocean through a straw. Oh well.

I gave up trying to reason with fan boys 10 years ago...and their insanity has only gotten worse....

I'm still waiting for some reviewer/humorist to point out how silly it is that a game with "Final" in the title is now on (at least) its twelfth sequel with no sign of stopping.

I know it's a really obvious joke, but...it's so obvious that it seems unfair to ignore it.

Abriael:

Jbird:
That's usually the case with these games, for me. I tend to do a lot of things different than other people because I don't read into something or ignore it all together.

Do you use libra on the bosses (or librascope with those that have multiple targets)?

I do, but it doesn't really matter half the time when the enemy takes magical damage normally and physical damage is halved, plus the fact that they'll have stupid-high HP.

Brain_Cleanser:
19, when she was basically dropped into Cryostasis.
Long story.

Haha yes! I love this. Best use of subtle (possibly unintentional) humor in the thread.

It is a LONG story. I find that people who refuse to play through a game (or really anything in life) and judge it on it's own merits tend to label the fans of said game as "fanboys" without actually thinking... "wow... some people actually enjoy this. This is fun to some people," and leave it at that. You can draw analogies that Final Fantasy XIII is like a hand on a stove, or a needle in the leg... but to the people who say "It gets better," they didn't hate it at first and then not hate it as much later. They probably liked it at first and then it got better later. I liked it fine at first... it grabbed me far more than Final Fantasy VIII & X ever did... and yes, it's getting better. There are quite a number of flaws and while I don't advocate postmortem developer chats as justifications for bad game design, the dev's at Squeenix thought the game would have been too hard and inaccessible to open up a lot of the battle mechanics that I feel are too tied down (being able to position your character, etc.). So... sad, but whatever... it's still fun.

Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

In a world were Bioware can make me empathise so deeply with Thane or the crushing paranoia of GSC gameworld's zone can creep so subtly into my head the disconnected, overbown, melodramatic, colour-vomit of games like FF13 seem so very outmoded.

Brain_Cleanser:

Hexami:

Brain_Cleanser:
Well, before I do anything else, I have to say that I hope Mr. Croshaw has a nice miniskirt on hand.
Vanille is 519 years old.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Vanille
So, yeah. The next video should be highly entertaining.
(Vanille's character's actually one of the best in the game. There's tons of character development. The whole damn game is based on the motivations of the characters.)

If she is 519, when did she stop aging? 15?

19, when she was basically dropped into Cryostasis.
Long story.

Well, I'll get the mini-skirt...

Damn I knew Yahtzee loved Earthbound (he said so in his Super Paper Mario review) but Chrono Trigger? It surprised me even though it shouldn't. BTW, Yahtzee never finished CT? What did he stuck on the Black Tyranno or something? It's not that hard of a boss.

BTW Yahtzee, Japan didn't "horde" Mother 3 for themselves. Reggie just won't localize it here in the states. I don't blame him either. It's hard to believe such a well told story about the themes of nature vs. technology can contain magical guardians that take the form of cross dressing males and involve trading shit to dung beetles for EXP. (And that's only the tip of the iceberg) It probably also didn't help that it was a GBA game released at the very end of that specific handheld's lifespan.

Abriael:

NickCooely:
Ahh Yahtzee. Half the fun of anything he does is watching the reaction of the fanboys. You can argue your point all you like the fact your putting in all this effort to defend a gods damn video game makes you a fanboy, or girl, gotta stay PC and such.

Actually the other half of the fun is seeing the reaction of HIS fanboys to the ones that dare criticize his rants. You know, you can argue your point all you like, but the fact that you're putting all this effort to defend a pseudo-journalist makes you a fanboy, or girl. Gotta stay PC and such :D

PS: Don't follow too closely the example of your Idol. Punctuation is important :D

Ahh. Touche. I could go on to say I've posted only once whereas others are refuting all over the site constantly but to be honest I lost interest just after hitting quote. So yeah... Not sure where to go from here. Want a pineapple?

PS: Idol? Please I have some style. If the stuff that came out of his mouth wasn't funny I'd probably hate the arrogant burke. But that's neither here or there.

Yatzhee:
I'd like to see more games have the balls to have an apocalypse half-way through.

I have always advocated this statement about 6 (3?). If you got the balls to end the world and show some failure on YOUR team, you got some steel running in your veins.

That, and I no longer watch for JRPGs, because all too often I can't tell if I should give a damn or not. Are the evil guys really evil, or just running an empire and not pleasing everyone?

Am I really getting stronger or more experienced, or are they just giving me moves that just kill stuff faster?

Perhaps I'm looking at these games the wrong way. However, sometimes it just seems that the characters are far too weak and stupid to stand up and figure things out on their own.

That, and it seems JRPGs are turning into 50 hr. slug throughs. I understand leveling up and all, and getting cooler stuff, but I really don't have a good month or so to play a video game, damnit.

Scrumpmonkey:
Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

I balme Final Fantasy VIII as well... but that being said, while Final Fantasy XIII has its share of spectacle, it's definitely a step above Final Fantasy VIII & X in many respects. I just have a problem with people that enjoy this game being labeled as "Japanophile Fantards." It's not a "great" game, but it is good... better than most of the drivel out there today. It's kind of like the Halo of Final Fantasy's, good, even enjoyable, but nothing revolutionary or truly great.

I guess I'll never understand the complaints about JRPGs

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