Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

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Abriael:
Of course having an anime styled character in my avatar makes me biased uh? I wonder what having crackers in yours makes you.

What makes me reinforce my opinion is the fact that you've been defending your beloved japanese culture with probably more than 10 posts in this thread alone, which really is saying something. And having a picture of Cracker ass Crackers makes me someone who doesn't push their preferred art style to other people with their avatar (because everyone who has an anime character as their avatar is shouting I LOVE ANIME), but rather a picture that represents what I am in a way, a cracker ass cracker.

Abriael:
LOL!

See, that's one way I am a cracker - I crack people up. You're welcome.

Abriael:
For your information, my friendly neighborhood smartie, I play both Japanese and Western games, RPG or not, i move with uncanny agility between Bioware RPGs, Bethesda RPGs (I've been a very active Oblivion modder), The Witcher, Drakensang and various JRPGs both new and old, love Silent Hunter 5 and Dawn of War 2 just as much as Yakuza 3, appreciate Assassin's Creed as much as Ninja Gaiden and have fun on Il-2 Sturmovik as much as on Ace Combat.

So? Should you playing western games as well as their japanese counterparts somehow outweigh your obvious bias? And I'm not saying bias in a way that makes you prefer, let's call them asian games (sick of saying japanese), over western ones. I mean it makes you overlook their flaws, which is what we're arguing about here, aren't we?

Abriael:
So I'm afraid not, the fact that I lived in Japan and know their culture enough to appreciate it as much as my native Italian culture (as opposed to some people here that go into a cultural shock as soon as they see a pair of almond-shaped eyes), and that I happened to chose a drawing I liked more than others, doesn't make me biased.

Now this is where you begin to sound misguided to me. Do you really think you need to actually live in Japan to understand the culture of the japanese? No, I do not to see cosplayers walking around on the streets to know that they exist, and no, nothing that I experience for myself in Japan, or anywhere else for that matter, that I saw people do, will somehow make me appreciate it. It's like saying you have to experience a life in a concentration camp to know how hard it was for people to get by in there.

Abriael:
The only bias here is that against Japanese games, that some western gamers (and wannabe journalists that turn into stereotype-mongers) seem to have. It's always sad that diversity tends to cause that much fear and hatred.

Your fear of these stereotype mongers makes your opinion all the more credible, because last I looked, people who side with the Japan lovers far outnumber those who don't. Also, don't act like you haven't seen anything else Yahtzee reviewed. He tears ANYTHING apart, and in this case, it was a JRPG, which he tore apart like the rest while explaining you what reinforces his hate towards JRPGs in general.
P.S. And in my opinion, most JRPGs greatly live up to their stereotypes. Otherwise there would be no reason to use them while 'stereotype-mongering', as you put it.

Scrumpmonkey:
Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

In a world were Bioware can make me empathise so deeply with Thane or the crushing paranoia of GSC gameworld's zone can creep so subtly into my head the disconnected, overbown, melodramatic, colour-vomit of games like FF13 seem so very outmoded.

God forbid someone actually loving BOTH final fantasy XIII AND Mass Effect 2. What an outlandish theory!

You know, appreciating a genre doesn't autimatically mean having to hate the other, as much as some people here seem to think that they need to be MARRIED to one cultural approach to gaming and one only.

of course insulting everyone that happens to think differently from you ("japanophile fantards"? Just lol, grow up, please) reeeeeeally adds credibility to your argument,

Reeeeeally.

Abriael:

NickCooely:
Ahh Yahtzee. Half the fun of anything he does is watching the reaction of the fanboys. You can argue your point all you like the fact your putting in all this effort to defend a gods damn video game makes you a fanboy, or girl, gotta stay PC and such.

Actually the other half of the fun is seeing the reaction of HIS fanboys to the ones that dare criticize his rants. You know, you can argue your point all you like, but the fact that you're putting all this effort to defend a pseudo-journalist makes you a fanboy, or girl. Gotta stay PC and such :D

PS: Don't follow too closely the example of your Idol. Punctuation is important :D

Call me a yahtzee fanboy (cause i am a huge fan) But ive never cared about yahtzee's opinions on games as much as i do his ability to make good points about gaming in general while making me crack up laughing.

That said I have been a JRPG fan since being formally introduced to the genre with FFX in college. FFX/12 Tales Vesperia, Lost Planet, Blue dragon etc i have played the "best" of JRPGs in this gen and loved them despite (gasp!) not having Yahtzee's approval.

When i bought played and subsequently traded in FF13 over the course of 72 hours the first thing I thought was "God I hope Yahtzee rips this game apart" cause it would be the best way to have my frustrations about such disappointingly bad game. I wont go as far as to say that no one can have fun "playing" it. But it takes a true fan of FF if not a crazy/uber nerd beyond my comprehension to really like this game. The flaws in this game are insane

-The incredibly linear/repetative gameplay (yes i know that most games are linear in reality but few rpgs literaly set you on straight line corridors for 20 hours non stop)

-The unoriginal/cliche/annoying characters

-The lack of gameplay depth,control,variety

-The story that requires you to read backlogs in order to understand it (I vividly remember searching through trying to figure what the hell a Fal'C was)

Regardless of opinions of yahtzee as viable source for game criticism, you (and none of the other anti yahtzee trolls for that matter) have not actually pointed out any valid point that conflicts with his synopsis (hence the troll accusation). The game sucked somethin awful and made me go back to dragon age to get my RPG fix.

SavingPrincess:

Brain_Cleanser:
19, when she was basically dropped into Cryostasis.
Long story.

Haha yes! I love this. Best use of subtle (possibly unintentional) humor in the thread.

It is a LONG story. I find that people who refuse to play through a game (or really anything in life) and judge it on it's own merits tend to label the fans of said game as "fanboys" without actually thinking... "wow... some people actually enjoy this. This is fun to some people," and leave it at that. You can draw analogies that Final Fantasy XIII is like a hand on a stove, or a needle in the leg... but to the people who say "It gets better," they didn't hate it at first and then not hate it as much later. They probably liked it at first and then it got better later. I liked it fine at first... it grabbed me far more than Final Fantasy VIII & X ever did... and yes, it's getting better. There are quite a number of flaws and while I don't advocate postmortem developer chats as justifications for bad game design, the dev's at Squeenix thought the game would have been too hard and inaccessible to open up a lot of the battle mechanics that I feel are too tied down (being able to position your character, etc.). So... sad, but whatever... it's still fun.

Uhg its not better than 6,9 or 7 they were fun and had a story that was not incoherent as much as cheap, FF8,X,12 and 13 is not only cheap but incoherent..... sure FF8,X and even 12 has some high points in their stories well FF8 mostly. When the game play goes to pot any flaw in the story or characters is that much worse. FF13 is on the same scale as FFX2 its not a real FF game...more a throw together quicky.... even japan is not that enamored with it an that says something right their.....

Abriael:

Scrumpmonkey:
Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

In a world were Bioware can make me empathise so deeply with Thane or the crushing paranoia of GSC gameworld's zone can creep so subtly into my head the disconnected, overbown, melodramatic, colour-vomit of games like FF13 seem so very outmoded.

God forbid someone actually loving BOTH final fantasy XIII AND Mass Effect 2. What an outlandish theory!

You know, appreciating a genre doesn't autimatically mean having to hate the other, as much as some people here seem to think that they need to be MARRIED to one cultural approach to gaming and one only.

of course insulting everyone that happens to think differently from you ("japanophile fantards"? Just lol, grow up, please) reeeeeeally adds credibility to your argument,

Reeeeeally.

I am not afraid to say if you like and buy watered down,shallow "popy" games you are helping the industry water down content and sell less of it for more money.

SavingPrincess:

Scrumpmonkey:
Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

I balme Final Fantasy VIII as well... but that being said, while Final Fantasy XIII has its share of spectacle, it's definitely a step above Final Fantasy VIII & X in many respects. I just have a problem with people that enjoy this game being labeled as "Japanophile Fantards." It's not a "great" game, but it is good... better than most of the drivel out there today. It's kind of like the Halo of Final Fantasy's, good, even enjoyable, but nothing revolutionary or truly great.

Im fine with people enjoying it, its just every time i mention criticims of this game or the genre at large i get pounded (it's better here but elsewhere it can be insane). I don't enjoy FF and im not sure i ever will again in its current form.

I constantly whish that the JRPG genre could improve itself and move past this rut it seems to be in at the moment.

Hearing he liked Chrono Trigger (until boss fights started wearing) was a bit of a surprise.

If gameplay is enough to beat out his distaste of story, I'm almost curious as to what he'd think of Tales of the Abyss.

Regiment:

awesomeClaw:
Isnīt "Beat it to the rush to give me money" simpsons joke?

Yes, it's "Be the first on your block to give me money!" I believe. I don't remember the episode or context, although I think it's Homer advertising the chance to catch chicken pox from Maggie.

EDIT: Now I remember- it's the story about Mozart (Bart), and after he dies, Mozart's father (Homer) runs grieving into the street and tries to sell death masks.

On topic: Starting a story in medias res is a good way to confuse me. I'd like a game that starts with your character... starting the story. This also goes for amnesia stories. I want to start out before anything game-plot-affecting occurs.

Yeah, I agree with this. It slightly bothered me about System Shock 2 (for about five minutes before The Many started speaking directly into my brain), and pretty much had me put Bioshock on hold for the best part of half a year before a certain major twist was "spoiled" for me and I decided I wanted to see how it would play out.

Abriael:

Yes, it sounds like you hyperbolically overstating things for controversy effect.
Or more because you're bent over so many people calling you on the fact that your "review" of FFXIII was misinformative on so many levels, that I'd define it more of a disjointed rant than anything else.

So be it, i will cave in and respond to your plea for attention.

*rubs eyes*

Am I reading this right? You're mad because he's doing his job? The man who's more or less demonstrated that there's maybe three or four games he's ever really liked?

I enjoyed and Enjoy Final Fantasy XIII, at the moment i'm savoring the open endedness that's chapter 11 fully, on my 117th hour of gameplay. And mind you, you're no one to say that I'm "wrong".

I never once felt, during the game, as I wasn't in control. Maybe because I wasn't so biased against it and I actually took the few minutes necessary to read the tutorials (you look like you didn't) and master the Paradigm Shift system, that is very complex, tactical, and requires a good deal of tactic and forward-thinking to use to it's full extent.

117 hours of game play? Didn't the game just come out a few weeks ago? I've played games in their entirety and not logged that much time after multiple beatings. The only game that's actually trumped this trend in my own gaming is one were that'd be expected after years of playing it.

Yet you want to accuse him of bias? Ok, shoot me. We're all biased. Trying to claim you're not means you're lying and for him to try to be unbiased would just lead to poor journalism.

And that's exactly it- tutorials. If you have to sit someone down and demonstrate something for them you've already done something wrong. The best games in the industry have very simple combat systems that you can effectively pick up and play without having to consult walls of text or simply be sat down and shown what to do. It's the difference between a game treating you like a child or treating you like you're there to experience something.

You say you're not in control? Really? What is "being in control" like? In games it normally means that the game puts a problem in front of you, and you have to solve such problem through input.
Even during the most linear parts, Final Fantasy XIII puts enemies in front of you, and you have to decide how to kill them. That's the very definition of being "in control".

FF13 is completely linear. They don't make any bones about it. There's no dungeon exploration, there's no pit stops in town, there's nothing really. It's more like it's a rail shooter except that it's in RPG format.

Yes, you can argue endlessly that "free roaming" RPG's merely let you have the illusion of choice, but even having the option to thinking you've done something trumps FF13. In all honesty if I wanted to play a game that treated me like I was reading a book or watching a movie I'd go do that.

And by the way, God forbid a game not forcing the gamer to mindlessly mash buttons randomly over and over! Tactical approach is the devil! I seriously wonder what you thought of Battle Chess...

I'd explain what "doing more with less" means but I have the feeling, and just from judging you in general I know it'd fall of deaf ears.

Funny, though, that you continue to rant about the alleged "fashion sense" of Final Fantasy characters, given that not counting Vanille's skirt, the characters in Final Fantasy XIII all wear some fairly normal and practical outfits. Makes me wonder if you paid actually paid attention during those meager 5 hours.
To be further honest, I've been wonder if you DID play those 5 hours, or simply mashed together a few misinformed opinions read somewhere.

Its more the fact that everyone has the style trends. Everyone has to have an extra belt. Everyone has to have hair style X, and wear shirt Y. There's a distinct Final Fantasy style out there. You typically see it creep up in games, but it effectively died in FF6. Now it's all pretty boys, brusque black men and "moee" women.

Seriously, do yourself a favor, Yatzhee, don't defend your "review" further. You're just digging yourself in deeper.
Your personal fanboys will like you anyway, though, don't worry. Now that you're feeling reassured and validated again you can move on to the next game you'll bash.

Isn't the person who's logged 117 hours already mocking someone (who's getting paid for what they do no less) on general literary hacker y and bias an effective case of the pot calling the kettle black?

TheMadDoctorsCat:

Regiment:

awesomeClaw:
Isnīt "Beat it to the rush to give me money" simpsons joke?

Yes, it's "Be the first on your block to give me money!" I believe. I don't remember the episode or context, although I think it's Homer advertising the chance to catch chicken pox from Maggie.

EDIT: Now I remember- it's the story about Mozart (Bart), and after he dies, Mozart's father (Homer) runs grieving into the street and tries to sell death masks.

On topic: Starting a story in medias res is a good way to confuse me. I'd like a game that starts with your character... starting the story. This also goes for amnesia stories. I want to start out before anything game-plot-affecting occurs.

Yeah, I agree with this. It slightly bothered me about System Shock 2 (for about five minutes before The Many started speaking directly into my brain), and pretty much had me put Bioshock on hold for the best part of half a year before a certain major twist was "spoiled" for me and I decided I wanted to see how it would play out.

Mmmmmm medias res dose not bother me as much as crappy plots,sub plots and poorly done stories.... whch of corse I can ignore if the game is fun to play and for it to be fun to play I need alot of customization and neat things to toy with the less fun and solid equipment,skills,combat system,ect the less fun I have have.....

I get such a kick out the people who come here and are surprised when Yahtzee rips a game apart. That's his schtick/job/gimmick... whatever you want to call it, and that is why people come to watch the reviews. Just as it is Leonard Maltin's job to love every movie he sees and give them glorious reviews an no fewer than 4 stars, it is Yahtzee's job to hate every game he plays (even if in reality he liked it).

As for FFXIII, I cant shake the realization that the Anime/JRPG cultures have become caricatures of themselves. It seems like as a genre, anime will never break the mold it created with highly stylized stereotypes. As it is, you can't have an anime/JRPG without the following cast:

1: Self-loathing main character whose snarky sense of humor is about as frequent as the blue moon.

2: Hyper-masculine urban warrior

3: Giddy schoolgirl who is proficient in hacking, spells, or some other arcane art.

4: Tough-girl rogue with a chip on her shoulder and a mysterious past.

Now I know that not all anime has this lineup, but WAY more do than do not. And this isn't even a BAD lineup as they characters usually interact in complex ways. Sadly, the formula gets real old very quickly and is such a staple in the genre that all developers and directors have done to modify it over time is to make the main character even MORE snarky or the giddy schoolgirl even MORE obnoxious. FFXIII is epochal in this trend, and I really hope for the sake of all Eastern animation and game design that we will see a new trend sooner rather than later.

Dilapsor:
I get such a kick out the people who come here and are surprised when Yahtzee rips a game apart. That's his schtick/job/gimmick... whatever you want to call it, and that is why people come to watch the reviews. Just as it is Leonard Maltin's job to love every movie he sees and give them glorious reviews an no fewer than 4 stars, it is Yahtzee's job to hate every game he plays (even if in reality he liked it).

As for FFXIII, I cant shake the realization that the Anime/JRPG cultures have become caricatures of themselves. It seems like as a genre, anime will never break the mold it created with highly stylized stereotypes. As it is, you can't have an anime/JRPG without the following cast:

1: Self-loathing main character whose snarky sense of humor is about as frequent as the blue moon.

2: Hyper-masculine urban warrior

3: Giddy schoolgirl who is proficient in hacking, spells, or some other arcane art.

4: Tough-girl rogue with a chip on her shoulder and a mysterious past.

Now I know that not all anime has this lineup, but WAY more do than do not. And this isn't even a BAD lineup as they characters usually interact in complex ways. Sadly, the formula gets real old very quickly and is such a staple in the genre that all developers and directors have done to modify it over time is to make the main character even MORE snarky or the giddy schoolgirl even MORE obnoxious. FFXIII is epochal in this trend, and I really hope for the sake of all Eastern animation and game design that we will see a new trend sooner rather than later.

thats not so much the problem as the game, as in the game mechanics and how it plays and how its built is utter BS.They would have been better off doing a movie......

Abriael:

Scrumpmonkey:
Urgg... threads like this always bring out the Japanophile fantards. I've even had people tell me with a stright face the "The bouncer" was a REALLY good game. When JRPGs statred being more a about spectacle, CGI, nonsenseical characters and insane plots (i balme you FF8!!) i ducked out of the genre almost entirely.

In a world were Bioware can make me empathise so deeply with Thane or the crushing paranoia of GSC gameworld's zone can creep so subtly into my head the disconnected, overbown, melodramatic, colour-vomit of games like FF13 seem so very outmoded.

God forbid someone actually loving BOTH final fantasy XIII AND Mass Effect 2. What an outlandish theory!

You know, appreciating a genre doesn't autimatically mean having to hate the other, as much as some people here seem to think that they need to be MARRIED to one cultural approach to gaming and one only.

of course insulting everyone that happens to think differently from you ("japanophile fantards"? Just lol, grow up, please) reeeeeeally adds credibility to your argument,

Reeeeeally.

This was my point exactly. I think FF13 is horrible. I don't need another lecture about how "I don't get it" or "We don't get it" or how our arguments "Lack credibility". These type of threads do bring out the Weeaboos. It's like beating at the bushes wih pocky.

I don't need to 'grow up' i need to regress, i think i've outgrown FF more than anything.

Yes i don't like FF13. Yes i do find it's community pretty agressive in telling me just how much i suck. Every time i let my thoughts be know somone always pops out and reminds me of how "i don't get the culture". I DON'T LIKE IT. It's that simple. There are FAR better JRPGs but sadly most of those are in the past.

ciortas1:
What makes me reinforce my opinion is the fact that you've been defending your beloved japanese culture with probably more than 10 posts in this thread alone, which really is saying something.

Yep, and I defended Bioware games with more than 100 posts on the appropriate thread. So what? :D
I happen to have an opinion, that comes from experiencing both gaming culture to the fullest, that's the exact contrary of a bias.

And having a picture of Cracker ass Crackers makes me someone who doesn't push their preferred art style to other people with their avatar (because everyone who has an anime character as their avatar is shouting I LOVE ANIME), but rather a picture that represents what I am in a way, a cracker ass cracker.

Oh yeah, because chosing an avatar over another means "pushing one's preferred art styles to other people". Crap, me having my own Dragon Age character as an avatar on the Bioware forum must mean that I'm trying to hit on the girls around there with how damn handsome my virtual single player self is...
So, are you trying to make me fat, by pushing crackers to me?

PS: I love SOME anime, and some others (the one that most happen to love, like Dragonball, Pokemon, Naruto...) i hate to bits. You know, as a consumer I watch something and then make an informed choice on liking it or not, wherever it comes from. It's called having a brain and using it :D

SI mean it makes you overlook their flaws, which is what we're arguing about here, aren't we?

What you can perceive as flaws, others can perceive as strong points, or neutral points. It's called taste. There's no thing as an objective opinion over most of what you define flaws, because they are different styles that cater to different people.
There are very few things that can be objectively defined as quality or lack of thereof, and even then just partly. Graphics, Music (from a technical standpoint), animation, quality of texturing... And all those, mind you, are undeniably top notch in Final Fantasy XIII.

Now this is where you begin to sound misguided to me. Do you really think you need to actually live in Japan to understand the culture of the japanese? No, I do not to see cosplayers walking around on the streets to know that they exist, and no, nothing that I experience for myself in Japan, or anywhere else for that matter, that I saw people do, will somehow make me appreciate it. It's like saying you have to experience a life in a concentration camp to know how hard it was for people to get by in there.

I'm sorry, but understanding a completely different culture based on a completely different history and evolution takes a tad more than seeing a few things on TV. Even living there for a while it's still difficult to grasp all the nuances. Looking at how narrow minded and close minded you seem, you probably wouldn't understand even after 100 years of costant exposure, to be honest.

the Japan lovers far outnumber those who don't. Also, don't act like you haven't seen anything else Yahtzee reviewed. He tears ANYTHING apart

I've seen quite a bit. Most of the times he tries to, at least, make sense while still exaggerating. This time he gave his worst.

ZippyDSMlee:
Uhg its not better than 6,9 or 7 they were fun and had a story that was not incoherent as much as cheap, FF8,X,12 and 13 is not only cheap but incoherent..... sure FF8,X and even 12 has some high points in their stories well FF8 mostly. When the game play goes to pot any flaw in the story or characters is that much worse. FF13 is on the same scale as FFX2 its not a real FF game...more a throw together quicky.... even japan is not that enamored with it an that says something right their.....

I'm sorry, I didn't see the part of my post where I said it was better than Final Fantasy VI... considering that's quite literally my favorite game of all time, I doubt I would have said it... but I could be wrong. Been wrong before.

Looking at the production value alone and given it's the first game in the series on current gen consoles, on multiple platforms, and has been in production since they finished Final Fantasy X, I doubt that it was "thrown together at the last minute." We seem to be ignoring (which shows just how far things come) that Final Fantasy XIII is one of the most graphically advanced games ever created, but I could care less about that stuff... more just refuting a point.

I don't see how Japan's opinion on the subject (since Japan is now a single entity and not a collective of individuals with individual opinions) makes any difference on the enjoyment that I receive from a title? I love plenty of games that the mass populace hated and hated many games that the mass populace loved. It's a matter of personal taste.

I look at anti-fanboys the same as I do the fanboys themselves. Just the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing.

ZippyDSMlee:

I am not afraid to say if you like and buy watered down,shallow "popy" games you are helping the industry water down content and sell less of it for more money.

Given your avatar (Since people here are judging by avatars lol) and counting the difference in taste, i could say the same of you. For me the latest mario games were "shallow poopy games" and buying them helps Nintendo in dumbing down the industry further (omg! Wasn't I biased for Japanese games? Yet I really really dislike almost everything Nintendo! The space/time continuum is going to rip!).

yet, I won't say that, because I happen to understand that different people appreciate different things, and me personally finding mario games absolutely idiotic (and mario himself one of the most pathetic characters of the whole history of gaming) doesn't make everyone that plays and appreciate them an idiot.

TheRealCJ:

CyricZ:
Bioshock technically starts in media res, doesn't it? I suppose a good difference in this case is that you don't actually KNOW you're starting in media res. It's only after certain revelations that you realize you're in the middle of the story, which I suppose is a really good thing?

Well, to be fair, in Bioshock, you start in a plane doing nothing: Plane crashes, game starts.

In a game like FF VII: You're on the roof of a speeding train, on your way to perform an act of terrorism.

I don't think either of you know what in media res means at all.

Scrumpmonkey:

This was my point exactly. I think FF13 is horrible. I don't need another lecture about how "I don't get it" or "We don't get it" or how our arguments "Lack credibility". These type of threads do bring out the Weeaboos. It's like beating at the bushes wih pocky.

I don't need to 'grow up' i need to regress, i think i've outgrown FF more than anything.

Yes i don't like FF13. Yes i do find it's community pretty agressive in telling me just how much i suck. Every time i let my thoughts be know somone always pops out and reminds me of how "i don't get the culture". I DON'T LIKE IT. It's that simple. There are FAR better JRPGs but sadly most of those are in the past.

Maybe if you didn't charge into the cray calling everyone that thinks differently from you "japanophile fantards", you wouldn't be treated like a rude, close minded jerk? :D

See, humans are very fickle things. I withstood FFXIII, all 60 hours of it, and yes I was 'persistent' enough to pump that much wasted time into it. I also like FFVI, FFX, FFVII, FFI, FFIII, FFIV, Earthbound, Mother 3, Chrono Trigger, FF Tactics, Kingdom Hearts, FFXII, TWEWY, Dragon Quest VIII, Persona 4 (the best JRPG ever made). Speaking from experience as a JRPG twat I can safely say that FFXIII was played simply because I was fucking bored/waiting for BlazBlue to arrive. Yahtzee, I understand, I find FFXIII depressing as well. It saddened me every time I put the disc in. I'm just glad it's over. The most beautiful game ever created, and that is it.

And for the last time, we get it, Vanille is fucking annoying, but instead let's pile all of our hatred on Fang, the worst character in a game ever.

With the SNES and Paper Mario mentions I was kinda hoping for a mention of my first (and still one of my favorite) JRPGs of all time: Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Timed hits make the battles a bit more spicy and it has some tongue in cheek humor for all ages, especially the mute Mario pantomiming everything that he says, which I find hilarious.

Abriael:

Caiti Voltaire:

If you have a difficult time telling the difference, attempt thinking with the brain in your head at some time instead of the one in you pants, there are marked physical differences which really aren't that difficult to discern. Wikipedia it sometime, you may find it educational.

And of course it takes less than three posts to see someone around this kind of discussion starting to move to personal attacks :D

I'm sorry if I don't make a complete physical exam to all the girls I come across, and if that mean "thinking with the brain in my pants" (not really, and I'm not sorry, but yanno...). But I'm sorry to say, despite your "market physical differences" ladies that look younger than they age exist, and aren't even that uncommon, expecially in the early twenties.

Next time I come across one, I'll be sure to ask her to let me examine her growth in detail. Maybe it'll work as a pickup line :D Scratch that, since we're at it, care to volunteer?

Yeah you know...respecting opinion is great and all, but she really lost it for me there. Hell, my first real girlfriend (ie longterm) was 20 years old at the time. I went to see a pg-13 movie with her once and got carded to make sure I was old enough to escort a minor in to see the movie.

And no, I'm not kidding. Both of us found it fucking hilarious, especially since she was technically older than I was. Now that's an extreme example, but she was commonly mistaken for 15 ALL the time. She's 26 now, and even now I wouldn't put her into her 20's if I didn't know better. To say that everyone looks their age and no 20 year old woman can be mistaken for a teen is quite laughable.

But anyway, getting away from the more troll-like / fanboy (on both sides) comments, I love watching Zero Punctuation. But it's comedy to me. A spectacle. It is not taken as an actual review. Hell, even the games he likes he climbs aboard the nit-pick train and heads towards the stop of Bitter Junction. Why? Because it's bloody hilarious. The fact that so many people take up arms either in defence of the games he bludgeons or in the defence of his integrity as a critic are both missing the point. Just fucking relax and have a laugh, even if it's a self-deprecating one.

I'm a gamer. I've played at least a little bit of everything be it rpg, fps, rts, mmorpg. action/adventure, etc. I, like everyone else on this pathetic little planet, have an opinion. I am a huge Final Fantasy fan. But that's not to say I love EVERY single thing about EVERY final fantasy. Yes the Martian dressed angsty teen thing gets old at times, but their character development is quite varied and creative. I love some of their storylines, and give a half hearted "meh" at others. The storyline in FF tactics is still one of my favourite tales to this day, but on the other hand.....a gunblade? Are you fucking kidding me? And everyone talks about it like it's this great innovation in weaponry. Why don't I just pick up a nuclear warhead and start pummeling people with it as if it's a club. It's innovative!

FFXIII had some great moments, but it was the biggest letdown for me since FF X-2 (which I officially term Barbie Girl Dress-up Adventures). If you liked it in its entirety, then more power to you. If you hated it, then move on to something else. Going onto an internet forum to whine and bitch and declare something's utter crap as though people are supposed to give a toss about your opinion...it's really sad. Anyone who feels the need to nerd-ragingly insist that their subjective opinion is objective fact should have their brain replaced with a chinchilla. At least then they could marvel at how soft the inside of their cranium feels as they drool on themselves.

tl;dr version:
-Yahtzee is funny, but for God's sake treat it for the humour that it is and not as canonized law (or something pretending to be canonized law).
-I love FF, but FFXIII was a substantial disappointment for me. Now that I've finished it, I'll not likely play it again.
-Someone's opinion is just that, regardless of who you are. There is no absolute right or wrong. Nerdrage all you want, but in the end no one will end up giving a shit.

Only partially relevant, and shameless self-promotion, but I thought I'd spend a moment talking about something that might be of interest to many people in this thread: my own 'rebalance' of Final Fantasy 7, a free mod for both PSX and PC versions called 'Rebirth'. I believe that VII *is* a fun game, but in practice far from the model of perfection "certain fangroups" insist. Rather than simply whinge and snipe at the game, I've decided to but my money where my mouth is, and use the wealth of available modding tools to put theory into practice!

REBIRTH is my own attempt to improve the balance, difficulty level and battle mechanics of the original game. Vanilla VII can be excellent fun, but the experience is spoilt somewhat by the sameyness of the characters (who vary only in terms of limit breaks), unintuitive status vulnerabilities and unreliable debuffs (that mean you either spam status magic randomly, or just give up entirely), vapid enemies and few interesting equipment choices. REBIRTH will fix this, and more, adding

* Greater character individuation - radically different stats and equipment, to make party selection something actually worth thinking about
* Making status magic worth using - creating enemies with intuitive and significant vulnerabilities, but without affording gamebreaking combos on individual creatures (like mini and berserk together)
* Amplified materia stat boosts / penalties: REBIRTH will not only make you think about your loadout carefully, but also make your efforts to optimize pay off
* Vincent no longer makes spacktastic limit break choices (i.e. I've recoded his AI in limit form)
* Added Air, Water and Holy element materia. Made these elements more important, and added an easy-to-remember elemental class system, to reward players who engage their noggins.
* Radically altered enemy skills, adding double-edged spells, nerfing OP blue magic and making oft-neglected spells relevant again
* Making stealing actually worth doing
* Introducing new equipment, a 'defence break' mechanic (like Vit0), and more elemental / status inflicting weapons
* Eventually to rewrite large portions of the AI code (being in assembler, this will take a while)
* Rebalancing summons, disambiguating equipment names, and altering limit breaks with a modding tool I've programmed specifically for the project

Find out more about the mod here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/final-fantasy-7-rebirth

acosn:

Am I reading this right? You're mad because he's doing his job? The man who's more or less demonstrated that there's maybe three or four games he's ever really liked?

mad? now now. Aren't you exaggerating? When someone expresses criticism, it doesn't mean that he's mad.
I'm much more amused than mad.

117 hours of game play? Didn't the game just come out a few weeks ago? I've played games in their entirety and not logged that much time after multiple beatings. The only game that's actually trumped this trend in my own gaming is one were that'd be expected after years of playing it.

Aside the fact that I received the game 3 days before the street date because having a best friend that's a gamestop store manager always helps. There's a TON of stuff to be done in Final Fantasy XIII is you want to complete all the side quests. 117 hours aren't that outlandish. It depends if you want to go straight to the end, or see it all.
But if you go straight to the end, then don't complain that it's linear?

Yet you want to accuse him of bias? Ok, shoot me. We're all biased. Trying to claim you're not means you're lying and for him to try to be unbiased would just lead to poor journalism.

There's a difference between a bias and an opinion, made up from prolonged experience.

And that's exactly it- tutorials. If you have to sit someone down and demonstrate something for them you've already done something wrong. The best games in the industry have very simple combat systems that you can effectively pick up and play without having to consult walls of text or simply be sat down and shown what to do. It's the difference between a game treating you like a child or treating you like you're there to experience something.

"best" is a very subjective thing. Many people don't like oversimple games, and prefer games with a lots of options and tactical variation. It's called taste.

FF13 is completely linear. They don't make any bones about it. There's no dungeon exploration, there's no pit stops in town, there's nothing really. It's more like it's a rail shooter except that it's in RPG format.

Not really. It's linear until chapter 10. Chapter 11 is completely open ended, and it can be easily as long or longer than the rest, depending how much of the area you explore and how many of the missions you want to do.

Final Fantasy XIII effectively includes two different games. A linear experience and a free roaming one.

Its more the fact that everyone has the style trends. Everyone has to have an extra belt. Everyone has to have hair style X, and wear shirt Y. There's a distinct Final Fantasy style out there. You typically see it creep up in games, but it effectively died in FF6. Now it's all pretty boys, brusque black men and "moee" women.

Sazh isn't brusque at all, he's actually a quite tender, easy-going, caring man. Lightning is the total opposite of Moe, and Snow is everything, but not pretty.

Abriael:

Scrumpmonkey:

This was my point exactly. I think FF13 is horrible. I don't need another lecture about how "I don't get it" or "We don't get it" or how our arguments "Lack credibility". These type of threads do bring out the Weeaboos. It's like beating at the bushes wih pocky.

I don't need to 'grow up' i need to regress, i think i've outgrown FF more than anything.

Yes i don't like FF13. Yes i do find it's community pretty agressive in telling me just how much i suck. Every time i let my thoughts be know somone always pops out and reminds me of how "i don't get the culture". I DON'T LIKE IT. It's that simple. There are FAR better JRPGs but sadly most of those are in the past.

Maybe if you didn't charge into the cray calling everyone that thinks differently from you "japanophile fantards", you wouldn't be treated like a rude, close minded jerk? :D

On an unrelated subject, here is the best peice of dialog to ever take place! Yey for depth and totally unannoying characters! all hail FF!

And they wonder why i hate JRPGs....

BeholdMyGlory:
Have you ever played FFIX? It's kind of a throwback to pre-FFVII, and it's actually my favourite in the series. I never really liked FFVII, FFVIII or FFX and later, I prefer fantasy over sci-fi in Final Fantasy games.

Well I have to say it is a better reason than most give for not liking FFVII or FFVIII and FFX. Although VI one could argue was a bit futuristic for it's setting with the steampunk aspect to it.

OT: I have to completely disagree with the point made about FFVI's story. Yes the story was easy to follow until you got into the world of ruin which ruined the game(bad pun but still). As after the highly emotional scene you are plonked on the main land with no idea where to go and monsters that can petrify you and give you a game over with only 1 person in your party.

Also discounting all of the spin offs if you just count FFVII's story as it is it isn't that hard to follow. Heroes or Fringe is more complicated than any FF and even they aren't that bad. Well maybe Heroes is.

Scrumpmonkey:

On an unrelated subject, here is the best peice of dialog to ever take place! Yey for depth and totally unannoying characters! all hail FF!

And they wonder why i hate jrpgs

To add insult to injury, there's of course no way to skip through the cutscenes. I usually make a point of leaving to have a sandwich / do the dishes / shave the dog whenever that thing appears.

At least XII reduces the cringe factor by making everyone and everything (just) relentlessly bland.

Well as long as Yahtzee keeps being funny then I'll keep watching. His personal taste doesn't contain JRPGs but I can respect that. When it comes to FFXIII the story and characters kept me coming back to play more than the combat did since although it's still pretty fun it got repetitive battle after battle than say something like Tales of Vesperia did.

It'd take one hell of an awesome game to overcome my nostalgia factor in favor of FF7 and even a last generation game like Tales of Symphonia but I did enjoy playing through FFXIII. (I was really worried that Hope and Vanille were going to turn into the Vaan and Penelo of this game but luckily I was mistaken.)

Scrumpmonkey:

On an unrelated subject, here is the best peice of dialog to ever take place! Yey for depth and totally unannoying characters! all hail FF!

Looks like you're very easily annoyed. What about some chamomile? :D

Bosola:
To add insult to injury, there's of course no way to skip through the cutscenes. I usually make a point of leaving to have a sandwich / do the dishes / shave the dog whenever that thing appears.

Indeed... That's one thing that made Kingdom Hearts II much more bearable for me. I didn't have to listen to Sora talk like an 8-year-old, I could just go straight to the part of the game I cared about.

ciortas1:

Abriael:
Of course having an anime styled character in my avatar makes me biased uh? I wonder what having crackers in yours makes you.

What makes me reinforce my opinion is the fact that you've been defending your beloved japanese culture with probably more than 10 posts in this thread alone, which really is saying something. And having a picture of Cracker ass Crackers makes me someone who doesn't push their preferred art style to other people with their avatar (because everyone who has an anime character as their avatar is shouting I LOVE ANIME), but rather a picture that represents what I am in a way, a cracker ass cracker.

Abriael:
LOL!

See, that's one way I am a cracker - I crack people up. You're welcome.

Abriael:
For your information, my friendly neighborhood smartie, I play both Japanese and Western games, RPG or not, i move with uncanny agility between Bioware RPGs, Bethesda RPGs (I've been a very active Oblivion modder), The Witcher, Drakensang and various JRPGs both new and old, love Silent Hunter 5 and Dawn of War 2 just as much as Yakuza 3, appreciate Assassin's Creed as much as Ninja Gaiden and have fun on Il-2 Sturmovik as much as on Ace Combat.

So? Should you playing western games as well as their japanese counterparts somehow outweigh your obvious bias? And I'm not saying bias in a way that makes you prefer, let's call them asian games (sick of saying japanese), over western ones. I mean it makes you overlook their flaws, which is what we're arguing about here, aren't we?

Abriael:
So I'm afraid not, the fact that I lived in Japan and know their culture enough to appreciate it as much as my native Italian culture (as opposed to some people here that go into a cultural shock as soon as they see a pair of almond-shaped eyes), and that I happened to chose a drawing I liked more than others, doesn't make me biased.

Now this is where you begin to sound misguided to me. Do you really think you need to actually live in Japan to understand the culture of the japanese? No, I do not to see cosplayers walking around on the streets to know that they exist, and no, nothing that I experience for myself in Japan, or anywhere else for that matter, that I saw people do, will somehow make me appreciate it. It's like saying you have to experience a life in a concentration camp to know how hard it was for people to get by in there.

Abriael:
The only bias here is that against Japanese games, that some western gamers (and wannabe journalists that turn into stereotype-mongers) seem to have. It's always sad that diversity tends to cause that much fear and hatred.

Your fear of these stereotype mongers makes your opinion all the more credible, because last I looked, people who side with the Japan lovers far outnumber those who don't. Also, don't act like you haven't seen anything else Yahtzee reviewed. He tears ANYTHING apart, and in this case, it was a JRPG, which he tore apart like the rest while explaining you what reinforces his hate towards JRPGs in general.
P.S. And in my opinion, most JRPGs greatly live up to their stereotypes. Otherwise there would be no reason to use them while 'stereotype-mongering', as you put it.

Is there any reason you went line by line on his quote to just continually bash him?
In my eyes, there is no reason anyone should bash someone outside an actual debate...and your first point which seemed to start this so called, "Internet argument" was unfounded.
You said he had a bias towards Eastern, Japanese style games simply because he had an avatar that had Japanese art in it. Whoa, stop the presses, that makes me have a bias towards JRPGs as well.

Sorry, I guess my opinion is unfounded, and I also must be ignorant. If having a Japanese style Avatar makes my opinion unworthy of being posted on this thread, then I guess I should buck out now while I have the chance. Of course, we all have some sort of bias, so why should he not be allowed to post on this thread because he "cares too much"? From what I can tell he just has a strong opinon on the topic, and is making frequent replies to those he disagrees with.

However, because I disagree with your assumption, I will keep on posting. I have little to no opinion on Yahtzee's article that pretty much was "defending" his review. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say he was "reinforcing the points he made in his review along with offering multiple points of clarification" but I digress.

He wanted to make 2 main points, 1. he did not hate all JRPGs, and 2. Judging a game on the first five hours is not entirely unreasonable.
I don't entirely disagree with him either, a game that takes so long to open up might be classified by some as a waste of time, especially since there are a multitude of other RPGs that one can buy and enjoy. (I mean, this is a remarkably fruitful time to be a gamer that enjoys RPGs)

On the other hand, giving a game a chance and letting it open up to you is another option when you play FF XIII, and those that do are entitled to their opinion, and can voice it on this thread if they choose too.

It doesn't make anyone right or wrong, and it is needless to constantly put other people down based on arbitrary standards that you choose to place on other members of The Escapist.

Bosola:

At least XII reduces the cringe factor by making everyone and everything (just) relentlessly bland.

Relentlessly bland? Grarg! Such baseless hatred of 12!

My gauge of the writing and voice acting says different... it's Quote Time!

Don't know about you but this strikes me as anything but "bland". It has a unique flare to it, actual WRITING rather than simple translation.

Okay, this whole affair started off humorous, watching fanbies on both sides of this religious crusade sling mud at each other. However, now it's just gotten stupid, in my opinion. To both sides, I can only say grow-up and get over it. It's just a game; everyone's tastes are different. Not everyone has to like the things you like, and not everyone has to not like the things you don't like. This much energy and effort to validate one's personal preferences is just ludicrous. Happiness comes from within, not from without.

Also, I'm going to say this: contrary to Yahtzee's "divine dictum", I did PLAY the game, and I did ENJOY the game(this is because Yahtzee's opinions have no bearing on my own choices and preferences). There are some who feel the same, and there are some who feel quite differently. This is allowed to occur because it is a game, and people are different with different tastes.

This entire fight just needs to end, and people need to just get on with playing games they enjoy(be that FF13 or otherwise). Don't let one incendiary curmudgeon ruin life for you.

(I still like his ZP, though.)

EDIT: Just want to clarify something on my last statement. I look upon the persona Yahtzee as being different from the person Ben Croshaw. I don't know Mr. Croshaw; I'm only familiar with a character he portrays in ZP.

Well well well... If you want an emotional rollercoaster, read a heated thread in it's entirety while NOT adding. At this point, I'll drop some assertions and piss off.

I went to the wikipedia page for Vanille, to remind myself which character is under discussion, and to be honest, she looks (as frankly tends to be the case) like she could be anywhere between 14 and 24. And such people do exist in real life. Fair dos there.

Linearity vs. openness. One person's exploration is another person's aimless wandering. Maybe stealing the golden breadcrumbs from Fable II would be a good move? When it worked, it worked well, and I imagine it'd be even better in a game world large enough for there to be a point to it.

Clothing styles. To be honest, fashion these days is far too wide in scope to chalk it up to anything but personal style. Calm down.

Role Playing and Story. Let us not forget, people, that technically Diablo is an RPG. Personally I roleplay during strategy games, particularly the Civilization 4 mod, Fall From Heaven 2. There is a heck of a lot of backstory for those that want it, a variety of characters to choose from (your leaders) and the number of 'builds' for customisation is fantastic, considering research 'lines' that look like classes (religion-cleric, hunting-rogue, warfare-warrior). You have an established story and characters, and can then make them your own. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me. Dragon Age: Origins was attacking the problem from the same angle, but slipped a bit. I'd have preferred a straight-up choice of who I wanted to play as, rather than having to pick a race and class firstly and separately.

Golden Sun = Awesome.

Points to consider or ignore. I'm out.

Yahtzee does indeed have good taste for the classics I say. I feel like we've bonded that we share many of the same favorite JRPGs after all.

If I'm wrong, then I damn well ENJOY being wrong. FFXIII is a blast. It's not the best in the series, but it's far from the worst. In my opinion, it's an improvement on XII in that I actually had the motivation to beat it...

Basically, I enjoy the games I do because of my opinion. And if you say my opinion is wrong, so be it. I really don't give a damn about your opinion.

eatenbyagrue:

Zukonub:
But I don't think you can say that it is impossible to play FF13... You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system.

He mentioned why waiting to get to the best parts is not a good selling point, using Plan 9 and putting your hand on a stove as metaphors (both in different reviews).

That said, I want to know if he's ever played Persona 3 and/or 4, and what his thoughts on them were. I guess he really just can't be bothered to play them, given his apparently busy schedule.

Having played a little into Persona 3 FES (in my neverending quest to catch up to the general public), I'd have to second those recommendations. Which is strange, as in JRPG's I tend to want overworlds, growing parties, and multiple dungeons, but Persona 3 still managed to addict me.

Also, Yahtzee's claim of someone enjoying FFXIII being objectively wrong is arrogant even for him, and doesn't have the saving grace of being funny. On a similar note, don't cite FFVIII's plot (the thing about past and future being smashed together) as a problem with JRPG's in general, FFVIII is widely despised (see Spoony's review for details).

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