Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

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Rafe:

Brad Shepard:
Look, theres nothing wrong with JRPGs, i for one love them, if you cant tell by my avatar.

They have a certen feel to them, its not all about gameplay, its about story, and if ive learned anything about final fantasy, its they have story (10 2 doesent count, it will never count.) and anyone who says that all final fantasys are the same, you are wrong in so many ways, give me 2 final fantasy that are the same in a way besides combat, then i will shut up.

Ah great! I was looking for a comment that wasn't Final Fantasy bashing so I wouldn't be commenting alone against the FF hate. I agree with you completely; I have never played a game that has left me nearly as satisfied as completing a final Fantasy title. It is a certain feel to the story.

I half expected the first post someone quoted me on this to be bashing, thanks :D, 9 had the best story in my view, just frecking awesome!

How do you feel about Final Fantasy Tactics Yahtzee? Maybe that's your kind of JRPG.

Abriael:

Shamanic Rhythm:
Of course Yahtzee does tend to bait fans by saying hyperbolic things like "if you like it then you are provably wrong", hence some of the rage is brought upon himself, but he makes some fairly valid criticisms. Above all, the fact that you have to play the game for twenty hours before it gets good.

First of all, that's not a point he has the basis to make, because he played just 5 hours. That's not a review, That's hearsay.

Also, "you have to play 20 hours before it gets good" is an opinion, not a "valid point", and that's an opinion based on the possibility of the generic "you" to dislike linear gameplay.
Personally, the game got "good" as soon as I saw the first scenes, I don't mind linear gameplay, and I don't think that freedom of exploration is an indispensible trait of a quality game. If it was, my options to find good games would be radically narrowed.
There are plenty critically acclaimed games that are a whole X hours long on-rail adventure. Final Fantasy XIII won't be the first, nor the last, but lots of people seem to feel personally slighted by the fact it's linear. It's funny to see how the same people aren't as offended by other games that are equally straightforward.

Personally, I find that a big part of that disparity in judgement, expecially from the press, comes from the fact that Final Fantasy XIII is a Japanese game, and it's become "hip" to bash Japanese games. No matter the quality.

The fun part is that when we receive a JRPG that truly innovates the genre in many ways (White Knight Chronicles), they will find other excuses to bash it (and I did see reviews criticizing it for being too "confusing" in the explorative part. Damn you, you want linear or free exploration?).

Are you done putting words in my mouth? All I said was that I didn't have the patience to play something which took 20, or even 5 hours to become fun, and when I say fun I mean by my standards. I don't have any problem with games being linear, many of my favourite games are linear; I don't like to bash Japanese games, it's just a different culture, that's all.

Also, would you like to point out just where exactly the press has been bashing FFXIII? From my research it has a metacritic score of 85%. Since objectively the rest of the world is in your camp in agreeing that the game is good, why are you wasting your time on here trying to convince what must be a few nay-sayers? I'm starting to wonder if someone has a tiny bit of a persecution complex.

you better try out on NDS, Advance wars days of ruin...

I stopped playing FF7 at the point where a black hole sucked me into a parallel dimension and forced me to fight some sort of missle-firing shed that blew me up while I helplessly mashed the "kill the fucking shed" option in the combat menu. I'm glad that someone out there shares my pain.

Abriael:

Shamanic Rhythm:
Of course Yahtzee does tend to bait fans by saying hyperbolic things like "if you like it then you are provably wrong", hence some of the rage is brought upon himself, but he makes some fairly valid criticisms. Above all, the fact that you have to play the game for twenty hours before it gets good.

First of all, that's not a point he has the basis to make, because he played just 5 hours. That's not a review, That's hearsay.

Also, "you have to play 20 hours before it gets good" is an opinion, not a "valid point", and that's an opinion based on the possibility of the generic "you" to dislike linear gameplay.
Personally, the game got "good" as soon as I saw the first scenes, I don't mind linear gameplay, and I don't think that freedom of exploration is an indispensible trait of a quality game. If it was, my options to find good games would be radically narrowed.
There are plenty critically acclaimed games that are a whole X hours long on-rail adventure. Final Fantasy XIII won't be the first, nor the last, but lots of people seem to feel personally slighted by the fact it's linear. It's funny to see how the same people aren't as offended by other games that are equally straightforward.

Personally, I find that a big part of that disparity in judgement, expecially from the press, comes from the fact that Final Fantasy XIII is a Japanese game, and it's become "hip" to bash Japanese games. No matter the quality.

The fun part is that when we receive a JRPG that truly innovates the genre in many ways (White Knight Chronicles), they will find other excuses to bash it (and I did see reviews criticizing it for being too "confusing" in the explorative part. Damn you, you want linear or free exploration?).

ZippyDSMlee:

100 hours? FF13 is only 40 hours long and most of that is grueling :P

It's 40 hours if you whine about it being linear and then PURPOSEDLY play it linear :D

Chapter 11 can easily be over 60 hours long, depending on how you play it, if you do all the missions, hunt all the monsters, look for all the components to get your ultimate weapons and so forth.
FFXIII is 2 games in one, basically. You can chose to play one, and whine it's linear and shallow, or you can play both, and you'll have an extremely rich and deep game.

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

The enjoyment of video games is subjective. That means every person will enjoy them in their own unique way. It is impossible to categorize something like a video game by your own feelings, because everyone will experience it differently. No one is stupid because they like or dislike a certain game. I loved FF VII, I really like FF XIII. THEY ARE JUST GAMES. If you don't like them, don't play them. It is wrong to look down on others just because they like different things than you.

Alrighty, I can see why he would argue that there's no gameplay in XIII, but that's just not true. I'm not claiming that I'm a master of water while sitting in a river, I'm just claiming I'm having a good time. And really, when you've spent only five hours playing the game, and as it has been said many times the first part of the game is sadly the worst which is why it'll never be on a 'best game ever' list except one compiled by twats, that's no reason to condemn the whole damn game.

Anyhow, stupid fanboy ranting aside, I will add that Chrono Trigger did have an excellent narrative with well-crafted combat, the group techs being a great addition.

VGFreak1225:
I can respect that.

By the way, if you never did finish Chrono Trigger Yahtzee, you should try the DS remake. I know that that you hate remakes, but the New Game + mode makes it much faster to tackle the bosses for subsequent runs and to get the other endings, even if you still need to finish them the traditional way the first time.

New Game + was in the original as well.
He has to actually beat it first though.

Through New Game + and some clever theft in 12,000 BC my characters stats were all *** back on the SNES. Also killed Lavos in the "un-winnable" fight.

I agree with you Yatz, to a point, anyway. A lot of my fave JRPGs were in the SNES hayday. Many being the ones you listed. They were perfectly suited for that style of game. But modern JRPGs really bore me. Esspecially after playing games like Dragon Age, Oblivion, or Fallout 3.

Still, my fave JRPG of all time was FF7. After that, were clones trying to BE FF7.

Yahtzee,

If you want a list of good JRPGs, I can give it to you - but you're right, VII was a pile of stinky cheese, and VIII wasn't much better. About the only good ones since VI have been IX, X, X-2, and XI. (not counting strategy games and whatnot).

XIII gave me the same feeling XII did - it was so bad, I wanted to return it; the only reason I didn't, is that I'm a collector and I must have them all. The series has been taking some drastic turns since after X-2, and if you ask me they're on the road to fiduciary trouble if the dude responsible for XIII is allowed to make a game again.

No towns in the entire game, because it was "too hard"? Maybe it was "too hard" because you laid off half your staff, jackass.

But there are literally TONS of other companies who are making some really great games, and you unfortunately lump them all together because you dislike more modern character design and seem to hate anime or anything related to it.

And by doing so, I think you're cheating yourself out of some great experiences.

- Helba

P.S. - Vanille's english voice actress needs her vocal cords ripped out with a chainsaw and no anesthetic. I'm sure we can at least agree on that?

P.P.S. - There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for a PS3 version of the game not having dual audio. There's twice the amount of free space on that disc that would be required for it.

Apocalypse halfway through?

Try SMT Nocturne.

The world ends in the beginning of the game.

ZippyDSMlee:

Abriael:

Shamanic Rhythm:
Of course Yahtzee does tend to bait fans by saying hyperbolic things like "if you like it then you are provably wrong", hence some of the rage is brought upon himself, but he makes some fairly valid criticisms. Above all, the fact that you have to play the game for twenty hours before it gets good.

First of all, that's not a point he has the basis to make, because he played just 5 hours. That's not a review, That's hearsay.

Also, "you have to play 20 hours before it gets good" is an opinion, not a "valid point", and that's an opinion based on the possibility of the generic "you" to dislike linear gameplay.
Personally, the game got "good" as soon as I saw the first scenes, I don't mind linear gameplay, and I don't think that freedom of exploration is an indispensible trait of a quality game. If it was, my options to find good games would be radically narrowed.
There are plenty critically acclaimed games that are a whole X hours long on-rail adventure. Final Fantasy XIII won't be the first, nor the last, but lots of people seem to feel personally slighted by the fact it's linear. It's funny to see how the same people aren't as offended by other games that are equally straightforward.

Personally, I find that a big part of that disparity in judgement, expecially from the press, comes from the fact that Final Fantasy XIII is a Japanese game, and it's become "hip" to bash Japanese games. No matter the quality.

The fun part is that when we receive a JRPG that truly innovates the genre in many ways (White Knight Chronicles), they will find other excuses to bash it (and I did see reviews criticizing it for being too "confusing" in the explorative part. Damn you, you want linear or free exploration?).

ZippyDSMlee:

100 hours? FF13 is only 40 hours long and most of that is grueling :P

It's 40 hours if you whine about it being linear and then PURPOSEDLY play it linear :D

Chapter 11 can easily be over 60 hours long, depending on how you play it, if you do all the missions, hunt all the monsters, look for all the components to get your ultimate weapons and so forth.
FFXIII is 2 games in one, basically. You can chose to play one, and whine it's linear and shallow, or you can play both, and you'll have an extremely rich and deep game.

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

If you ask me, X was one of the best, if not THE best one in the series; and it has nothing to do with linearity, although I love the story - it has to do with the combat system, which IMHO, is tied for greatest battle system of all time right up there with Legend of Dragoon.

So, put those two together, and the "corridors" are tolerable.

XIII had to be their idea of a joke, though; you seen the interviews with the project lead? *headdesk*

X had a pretty bad story. The last FF I genuinely enjoyed was IX.

Hell, I like My Life As A Darklord more than FFX. It's fun to play, and the story doesn't drone on and on about characters I don't care about.

probably already mentioned, but Final Fantasy IX is definitely the best of FFVII-FFXIII. too bad it has been so overlooked. I'm just waiting for it to come up on PSN for PSP.

JRPGs aren't bad, the stories are great, characters are deep. The only problem is the whiney characters. If anything Watch the Unskippable for Last Remnant. That is a perfect example.

even worse than the whiney character: the horrible voice acting. There is always 2 annoying characters.

ZippyDSMlee:

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. There are NO corridors in the open ended part of the game. They aren't longer. It is, indeed, open ended. You can explore freely.

Misinformed post is misinformed.

I think it's about time we and Square all say good-bye to FF. Seriously, it's done, it has no purpose. Square only makes it to please the fans (which of course is unwise) and the fans only play it as a videogaming form of comfort food. VII changed things, VIII blew goats, IX and X were solid entries, XII was the stake in the heart, and XIII is the cheap, perverse voodoo resurrection. Square definitely has great talent in their company so it's about time they use it for games other than FF. Y'know, just like in their SNES/PS1 GOLDEN AGE.

I think I am just too lazy to read so.....can you make a video and say this whole thing over again. I'm just saying~ I will read......

NICE WORK AGAIN!

"smashing together past and future like pillowy breasts in a granite wonderbra"

That's the most hilarious description of FFVIII I've ever heard and made the whole article worthwhile! At least I assume it was FFVIII he was describing there.

I'm actually in the extreme minority group that has FFVIII as my favourite installment in the series. I dunno, it's hard to explain.

Not that surprised that Yahtzee at least appreciated Chrono Trigger, even if he didn't finish it. I just hope he got up to the particularly unexpected part of the game where


before he quit . At the time that bit just made my jaw drop so hard it put a hole in my floor.

CyricZ:
Bioshock technically starts in media res, doesn't it? I suppose a good difference in this case is that you don't actually KNOW you're starting in media res. It's only after certain revelations that you realize you're in the middle of the story, which I suppose is a really good thing?

I don't think so. Not for the character at least. For the character the start of the game is the start of his journey. The story in Rapture on the other hand, has long been told already but that's typical of most type of games and its also quite frankly one of its biggest failings. Without knowing what the city was like in its heyday there's no sense of loss, compare this to say Doom 3 or Half Life where the main protagonist is in the facility before the crap hits the fan and actually lives through and experiences the ordeal.

I don't know why Bioshock got so much praise myself. The enemies are all pretty samey, the big daddy fights are a joke, and for all the novelty of the environment its just a corridor crawl with a bubble rather than brick exterior. The hacking's sort of fun, but after I've hacked the 50th vending machine it gets tedious. And the ending was so . . . stupid. The ending is essentially black or white and when my character was for all intents and purposes a very light shade of gray by the end its really dumb and out of character that I get the "black" ending. There's a total disconnect with my experience.

Anyway, Bioshock is not inmedia res.

Well, I can't really say you opinion's entirely worthy of even being thought of, since you didn't even finish the game. I'd admit, though, it's like the first eleven chapters of the game was the INTRODUCTION and the rest of it being the entire story cramped in 12 hours; it's true if you think about it, since we don't really get any story other than flash backs to the 13 days section and every other scene is about the characters frolicking and not being effing together (and making me work with an incomplete battle system, with two party members) until they meet up again and crash land. To put an hypothetical analogy to it, you would be complaining about Final Fantasy 7 being just cutscenes and crappy gameplay when all you've seen is the bombing mission. Not that it's your fault, the pacing was shit, so was screenplay and story; I liked the ending a lot, though. And main story aside, I did like the compendium's notes; they make the main story seem slightly coherent, and the mythos behind the world is pretty fun to read (er...I'm not sure if it is in the English version).

On the issue of the games being art porn...well, that's probably because you already have a bad impression of the game. If you actually took the time to notice, FF13 actually takes a lot of innovation in to the maps of older renditions. If you played a bit without moving the (shitty ass) camera, you'd notice that sometimes it feels like how you move in FF7 (or RE, if you take it that way). The movements and map systems are improvements of older map systems, a bit more streamlined, though too simple and rigid. I liked the scenery; if you tried turning the old 2D games into 3D games I'm sure a lot of them would look darn weird, too; one complain I did have was that most of the game (the "introduction") was filled with glowing lasers and blinding lamps for no reason, and the scenery repeats way too often. It gets better once you move to the wild, but it sucked looking at the dull scenery.

In terms of character design, you're complaining that two out of six characters are kids physically? Lightning looks a bit like a twig, but Snow, Sazh, and Fang look nothing like adults, and Snow and Sazh look nothing like super models (bum and an afro guy), I don't see how you can complain about that unless you have that prejudice in the first place; I do admit that she was really sexualized: her stigma's on the side of her leg, and her skirt and top basically doesn't cover anything.

The game does actually feel like a "game" later on, so just because I'm downstream right now doesn't mean I can't go up stream and turn up my water control abilities to 11. There's actually a direct level of strategy and planning involved, along with the so-familiar-it's-like-we-are-relatives grinding.

At least watch the super awesome ending with fun fun friendship, deus-ex-machina, and pan-up into the sky. I make it sound really lame, but after beating the suddenly damn hard final chapter and final boss, you would think anything's awesome. You can always go back to it later rather than review another game, I mean, you get two reviews for the price of one game, that's like, double the opportunity, right.

or you could just ignore my wall of text, hey, it's a giant wall alright.

FBPH:

Caiti Voltaire:
I can abide the JRPG format when I find the story interesting and compelling. For all the shtick FF7 gets for kicking off the spectacle-fighter-ish trend of RPGs which really don't involve roleplaying or indeed really any game playing, the story really was compelling enough that the thinner gameplay didn't bother me. It comes to me as no surprise and a great disappointment that they have taken to the Nintendo method of game making by which I mean just basically releasing iterations of the same game.

That may be true, but at least Nintendo's iterations are consistently FUN.

Hu-HO!
We got a live one here...
...seriously though, that was funny.

...much like this article was funny.

FF6, Earthbound and Chrono Trigger are the superior JRPGs of the SNES generation, and sadly hasn't been topped since then.

However, Super Mario RPG for the SNES was better than any of the Paper Mario games.

Bleh, I had a great big long post I was writing, then I realized nobody would care.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that while the video review of FF XIII was funny and fairly accurate, the article here displays a lack of familiarity with the game that, while not surprising, does take away from the credibility of the point. I dunno, I guess I just expect more thought out of written articles. Silly me.

*sigh*

Neither argument will ever be successful. what a person likes is subjective, hence the endless bickering. it makes for an interesting read, though.

I was personally annoyed with Yahtzee FF XIII ZP, and i don't even have the game. I know his job is more or less to piss people off, but usually he's a little more informed.

what happened to the space game he was making tho'?

i wonder if yahtzee played super mario rpg for the snes. i loved that game, it was awesome. ff7 is still my favorite rpg despite understanding why ppl blame it on the fall of the series. whether you liked it or not it was original and shouldn't be held accountable for the rest of the series. the blame lies with square's blatant milking.

I used to like jRPGs.
Then I bought a nintendo DS.
With maybe three-four exceptions every RPG for the DS is an Jrpg.
I have come to hate JRPGs.
After a while they all sort of seem to blur together.Quirky name, spikey headed androgynous gobshite chosen one character,and the usual collection of 12 year old girls and annoying best mates as your "party", crappy wibbly background real time battles and incomprehensible plots.
I would KILL to get something like the old style hard as nails regular RPG on the DS like Eye of the Beholder ,Bloodwhych, ,Warriors of the eternal sun,Planescape torment ,or hell even B uck Rogers count down to doomsday.
But no , sadly on the few ds forums I frequent people get excited when the latest generic JRpg comes out (hey! "Final Tentacle Dragon Saucer eyed schoolgirl quest 4 is out" bin w8ting for dat lol!").There's been one or two regular RPG's (thank you ATLUS), which seem to have been pretty much ignored
Oh and the only remotely decent JRPG (other than chrono trigger which was great , but was basically a fancy SNES game)I've played on the system was Soma Bringer , which of course WAS NEVER RELEASED OUTSIDE JAPAN! doh!(so you need a flash cart a dodgy rom and a fan translation patch)
There is no God , or if there is he has a PSP.

Actually in retrospect Soma Bringer is basically Diablo dressed up to look like a JRPG , so yeah , JRPGS , I hates em all!

DaMan1500:
I stopped playing FF7 at the point where a black hole sucked me into a parallel dimension and forced me to fight some sort of missle-firing shed that blew me up while I helplessly mashed the "kill the fucking shed" option in the combat menu. I'm glad that someone out there shares my pain.

please tell me that you are joking with this post?!

Did you just say that you only played to where you first enter Sector 6 in Midgard, and where in your imagination did you pull the "dimension" from?

Abriael:

ZippyDSMlee:

Ah filler...... it didnt make FFX any better... and guess what..... its still a heavily linear game it just has a longer corridors than most....

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. There are NO corridors in the open ended part of the game. They aren't longer. It is, indeed, open ended. You can explore freely.

Misinformed post is misinformed.

i second that!
They did the same with FFX (a game that in my view have gotten WAY misjudged), linear trough a good chunk of it, and then it opened up to this large world that gave a lot of side quests and treasure hunting.

And while im on the subject...Everybody compares this to FF7, while i believe it to be a spiritual sequel to FFx.

If someone (im looking at you Mr.Croshaw) would like to try out some Really good jrpg titles i would wholeheartedly recommend the Shin Megami Tensai: Persona games (especially SMT: Persona 3 FES & Persona 4, both available for the PS2)

and just to remind people: If you dont like Japanese culture/storytelling and/or Anime/manga you should never try to review a JRPG.
that like i i where to review a Kanye West or Akon cd( and i hate Rap and hip hop with a passion).

I posted a lot.

awwww I was looking forward to you answering some of the stuff posted :(
Still, your mini review of FF6 makes my heart warm.

Caiti Voltaire:

Abriael:
]
Because god forbid, with 3 characters being adults and one being actually middle age, it's a [/i]carnal sin[/i] to have a girl that looks younger.

beecause you know, childish ladies don't exist in reality.

Please...

They don't generally, at least not in a physical sense, outside of hormone deficiencies or medical ailments. People age and hit puberty differently, this is a well established fact, but also a well established fact is that the Japanese hentai crowd has this tendency to animate schoolgirls that are supposed to be barely legal and look like they definitely aren't legal. Now, in fairness, we do this in our pornography too, but that doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Well, I don't have any deficiency or ailment (that I know of) but people have said I look as young as 15. Maybe Vanille just looks young? XD But knowing Japan...no.

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