Yahtzee vs. the JRPG

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Zukonub:
But I don't think you can say that it is impossible to play FF13... You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system. Though I do agree with you about the crystarium... We should have just gotten traditional leveling, and at the end, we choose which role we want to level up.

Jesus, you don't think there's a problem with that? Final Fantasy is the only series that can get away with "Oh you only played for five hours and therefore didn't get to play half of the system." No, that's bullshit. Even xenosaga with it's ridiculously long hour or more cut scenes gave you the full combat experience right off, every other JRPG will toss you right into the fray after short intros because they're not retarded enough to think "HMMM FIVE HOURS IS PERFECTLY FINE FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" anyone else who tried it would get slammed to hell and back, so why do we let one company who makes mediocre games at best that have been getting worse with each installment get away with this shit? Probably because the vast majority of JRPG fans are fools who wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the ass while they sit there screaming that their "bishie" is a paragon of awesome characterization and writing.

I don't care what any official media says, if Vanille is over 16 I will suffocate myself with a miniskirt

This is just racial ignorance. Have you ever watched one of those Japanese shows where moms are dressed up in their daughter's school uniform? Could be mistaken for a school girl themselves anyday. The lesson: they really can look way younger.

But don't suffocate yourself just yet. Aside from your flaming fanboys I love your videos every week =)

EDIT: of course you could also draw a lesson that confirms that blatant fetishism you're talking about there ;) But that's a chicken/egg

LordNue:

Jesus, you don't think there's a problem with that? Final Fantasy is the only series that can get away with "Oh you only played for five hours and therefore didn't get to play half of the system."

In a game that can easily last more than a 100 hours? You playeded 5% of the game and you're surprised if you didn't unlock more than half of the system?

Then I guess all the western RPGs in which you start with crappy equipment and very few skills must be horrible for you?

Not to mention those FPSs that, have you play the first 5% only with a crowbar? Those must really disgust you, I guess.

Abriael:

LordNue:

Jesus, you don't think there's a problem with that? Final Fantasy is the only series that can get away with "Oh you only played for five hours and therefore didn't get to play half of the system."

In a game that can easily last more than a 100 hours? You playeded 5% of the game and you're surprised if you didn't unlock more than half of the system?

Then I guess all the western RPGs in which you start with crappy equipment and very few skills must be horrible for you?

Not to mention those FPSs that, have you play the first 5% only with a crowbar? Those must really disgust you, I guess.

You shouldn't have to unlock the god damned system you're comparing the entire fucking battle systems to things that are completely different.
Lets stick with WRPGs here. You start with shitty equipment like in a JRPG, but oh hey, you can't attack or loot because *Gasp* you're only five hours into the game! You shouldn't have to unlock the fucking system of the game, that is just poor design. Starting with bad equipment is not the same as having entire segments of the system arbitrarily unavailable just because the game decides you have to play ten more hours before you're actually allowed to play because the developers are so terrible they mistake actually being able to play the game with variety.

LordNue:

Lets stick with WRPGs here. You start with shitty equipment like in a JRPG, but oh hey, you can't attack or loot because *Gasp* you're only five hours into the game! You shouldn't have to unlock the fucking system of the game, that is just poor design.

But you CAN attack and loot since the very beginning in Final Fantasy XIII. What you unlock with progression is the Paradigm Shift itself (very, very early), which is basically the ability to change class, and further paradigms for each character, which is no different than unlocking additional classes.

Sorry, but flawed and biased comparisons don't fly :D

As much as I love JRPGS, I do agree with some of the things Yahtzee says. Admittedly, I am currently enjoying FFXIII, however it doesn't feel as strong as FFVI, or FFVII, or hell, not even FFIV. These days I find that Atlus is the company that makes the best JRPGS out there, such as,
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
the Persona series
the Devil Summoner series
and even the Digital Devil Saga series
Even though I'm diehard Square fan, they have been disappointing me lately, with their only good titles in recent years in my opinion being, The World Ends With You, and FFXIII (again, that's just my opinion).

Abriael:

LordNue:

Lets stick with WRPGs here. You start with shitty equipment like in a JRPG, but oh hey, you can't attack or loot because *Gasp* you're only five hours into the game! You shouldn't have to unlock the fucking system of the game, that is just poor design.

But you CAN attack and loot since the very beginning in Final Fantasy XIII. What you unlock with progression is the Paradigm Shift itself (very, very early), which is basically the ability to change class, and further paradigms for each character, which is no different than unlocking additional classes.

Sorry, but flawed and biased comparisons don't fly :D

Given that you did a flawed and biased comparison yourself you shouldn't be talking. The point is that it is utterly retarded to have chunks of an entire system arbitrarily locked away for no reason, especially if it takes more then 5 hours just to see glimpses of this regardless of how long the game is over all.

Abriael:

In a game that can easily last more than a 100 hours?

Stretching it a bit, but I'll let this fly

You playeded 5% of the game and you're surprised if you didn't unlock more than half of the system?

No. He played five hours and was surprised the mechanics were gimped. The real-time measurement is important. It doesn't matter what proportion of the game you've completed - if the game does not offer you new skills and matters to deal with as you master them, then the learning curve is, well, flatlining, and this can make a game significantly less fun.

Not that every other FF game gets away on this point. I'm often inclined to believe that VII introduces Added Effect, MP Absorb and Counter - some of the most interesting materia in the game - far too late on (by which point, they've been rendered redundant by Ultima / Trine / their many cousins)

Then I guess all the western RPGs in which you start with crappy equipment and very few skills must be horrible for you?

Except that they then soon start introducing many new elements to master, and quickly. LordNue 's specific complaint is that XIII does the very opposite of this, and that this will spoil the pacing of the game.

Not to mention those FPSs that, have you play the first 5% only with a crowbar? Those must really disgust you, I guess.

As I recall, HL1 doesn't leave you with a crowbar for very long. In fact, there's about thirty seconds between the bar and the first available firearm. HL2 leaves you weaponless for a while, but then again, I think that HL2 is just not a very well-paced game, and that its on-rails, restrictive philosophy can be too suffocating to make it a worthy sequel to its predecessor. Of course, HL1 was no less linear, but it always managed the trick of offering you one choice, but pulling the illusion that you'd determined it yourself. But I digress.

Also: GarlandG thinks it's too slow, too. And if you won't believe him, then all's lost for you ; )

LordNue:

Given that you did a flawed and biased comparison yourself you shouldn't be talking. The point is that it is utterly retarded to have chunks of an entire system arbitrarily locked away for no reason, especially if it takes more then 5 hours just to see glimpses of this regardless of how long the game is over all.

You don't see "glimpses". There's a steady progression.

Bosola:

Stretching it a bit, but I'll let this fly[/QUOTE]

It's not stretched at all. If anyone manages to do all the missions in less than 100 hours, I'll give him a medal.

[quote]No. He played five hours and was surprised the mechanics were gimped. The real-time measurement is important. It doesn't matter what proportion of the game you've completed - if the game does not offer you new skills and matters to deal with as you master them, then the learning curve is, well, flatlining, and this can make a game significantly less fun.

but the game offers you PLENTY new skills as you progress. It even offers you new character. There's tons of skills to unlock in FFXIII, not just the paradygms. And the game is very progressive since the very start in unlocking them.
Does it give you ALL he skills at the very beginning? No.
Does it leave you without progression? Never.

It's that simple.

To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.

But what I meant with the beginning quote was that some of the later battles in the game are absolutely PHUN. Some of the best battles in the entire series, and not even after the 20-hour mark.

Zukonub:
To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.

You're absolutely right. That's why you unlock the ability of use Paradigm Shift, the first paradigms, and the crystarium at the very beginning of chapter 3, which is more or less ONE hour (one hour and an half if you play reeeal slow) into the game :D

Whoppiedoo!

Abriael:

boholikeu:

Gameplay can be contradictory to the story if the player's actions don't match what the game story is trying to tell you. For example, it's contradictory for an RPG that's about healing the world to only make the combat situations playable. For a better explanation of this google "ludo-narrative dissonance".

Good point, too bad that Final Fantasy XIII isn't about "healing the world" at all, not even nearly.

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

boholikeu:

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.

In all honesty, he should check out Legends of Legaia, for the PS1. I absolutely loved this game, and it seems to fit pretty well with his criteria.

Abriael:

boholikeu:

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

Abriael:

Zukonub:
To be perfectly honest, 5 hours without paradigms sort of made sense within the story... Since the characters didn't have any magic, why would one be able to use it? I mean, yeah, it's stupid and poorly paced, and I will never defend it, but it had to begin that way for story purposes. It couldn't have just begun after the Ragnarok vision.

But by all means they should have made it a tad shorter than 5 hours.

You're absolutely right. That's why you unlock the ability of use Paradigm Shift, the first paradigms, and the crystarium at the very beginning of chapter 3, which is more or less ONE hour (one hour and an half if you play reeeal slow) into the game :D

Whoppiedoo!

Well, I did clear out all the areas. I suppose I just play really slow! image

Yahtzee, I have a question. What did you think about Fina Fantasy IX? Since it was created by the original creator of the series and didn't EXACTLY start off in the middle of things in terms of the story or character development but did start off in the middle of a mission, that is true. I personally find FF9 to be my favorite. Has better pacing in story and character development than FF1-6, but none of that goofy nonsense shit like FF8, 10, X-2, XII, XIII lol. FF7 is kinda a mixed thing, has some goofy shit but not really in a bad way.

So ya, would love your thoughts on FF9 if you preferred the older FFs especially.

boholikeu:

Abriael:

boholikeu:

This is true. Like I mentioned before, I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can't tell you about any contradictory gameplay within its story. Based on every review I've read so far though, the storyline has very little to do with the actions you perform in the game.

Again, I haven't played the game yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm willing to give FFXIII a try if it looks like one of those rare JRPGs to break the mold.

I didn't see any contradiction. Can't say what contradiction others saw in it, since I didn't see them. The characters of Final Fantasy XIII make very much sense and are very believable, expecially when you start knowing them, their reasons and their past.

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.
I gave up trying to convince him when he told me he has played and enjoyed each and every Final Fantasy game since #1 and still thinks FF13 is a Masterpiece. Not that I believe him but if he is capable of saying such things with a straight face then there is no hope for him...except, you know...Hope.

Tetranitrophenol:

I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.

You know, people with a brain have opinions and ideas. They often defend them even if you happen to believe they are wrong and "try to convince" them.

Or maybe you think that someone should immediately stand at attention and bend over as soon as you tell them "you're wrong!" with some weak argument made up of hearsay and prejudices?

The fact that a random guy on the internet with awful gaming tastes, whose job is bashing games while blabbering without pauses hates a game, doesn't automatically make that game bad (actually, it raises the chances for that game to be actually good).

Zukonub:

Well, I did clear out all the areas. I suppose I just play really slow!

I cleared out every single chest and mob myself. I can't imagine taking more than one hour and an half for the first two chapters. After that, both the crystarium AND paradigm shift are unlocked and progress becomes costant (completely voiding the "5 hours" theory, by the way).

boholikeu:

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

The gameplay isn't related to the story how? The characters are fugitives. They're hunted. They fight the ones that are hunting them. What's exactly divorced in that?

Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

Lesson learned though, next time someone labels a paragraph with the title of a game I plan on playing, I'm staying clear.

PhunkyPhazon:
Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it)), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

You didn't have to read his extra punctuation lol. Also, he's had many spoilers in the past, shoulda figured there'd be spoilers about past games he's talking about.

Vicioussama:

PhunkyPhazon:
Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it)), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

You didn't have to read his extra punctuation lol. Also, he's had many spoilers in the past, shoulda figured there'd be spoilers about past games he's talking about.

lol, I obviously edited too late. Still, I don't expect spoilers when watching his videos, why should I typically expect them in the article? I'm pretty sure I've seen him use spoiler tags before. (But don't take my word for it, I'm not entirely sure)

PhunkyPhazon:
Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

Lesson learned though, next time someone labels a paragraph with the title of a game I plan on playing, I'm staying clear.

The apocalypse thing isn't so much of a spoiler when it and the word "opera" are the two things people tend to think stand out most from the game within the series. Yahtzee didn't mention how it comes about, exactly when it happens, or what the results of it are, so while it is certainly a light spoiler it's no reason to feel put off of the entire thing.

Abriael:

The fact that a random guy on the internet with awful gaming tastes, whose job is bashing games while blabbering without pauses hates a game, doesn't automatically make that game bad (actually, it raises the chances for that game to be actually good).

I've actually found Yahtzee's tastes to be fairly dependable. He's stated many times that he focuses on the negative points because that's what people want from him, but the general rule is that while he may point out the faults that doesn't automatically make the entire game bad. The only time I've really disagreed with him is when he paired the control setup of Smash Bros. to every other fighter ever, but I have to take it with a grain of salt because as Smash Bros. is concerned I'm very much a fan.

Perhaps the grain of salt bit is what you're missing. Jus' chill a tad. People getting all up in arms defending the quality of every FF entry is what put me off of the series for the better part of two console generations.

ZaronX:

PhunkyPhazon:
Oh yeah, just wanted to say something I didn't mention in my last post. Thanks for spoiling FF6 like that. I was really looking forward to playing the game and especially enjoying the story after hearing so many positive things (That and my friends keep nagging me to play it), but now I'm honestly put off of it. I know it's an old game and all, but that doesn't mean everyone has played it <_< Oh well, maybe if I wait a couple years I won't remember this. The game is already fifteen years old or something, a couple more won't hurt.

Lesson learned though, next time someone labels a paragraph with the title of a game I plan on playing, I'm staying clear.

The apocalypse thing isn't so much of a spoiler when it and the word "opera" are the two things people tend to think stand out most from the game within the series. Yahtzee didn't mention how it comes about, exactly when it happens, or what the results of it are, so while it is certainly a light spoiler it's no reason to feel put off of the entire thing.

Didn't he say the villain wants to blow up the world and that it happens halfway through the game? To me that kind of makes it sound like I just found out the 'who' and 'when' at the very least. Otherwise, I guess you're right. There's always the chance I'm totally wrong, so there's not much point in getting too worked up about it...yet.

It's a pity he's probably never played Panzer Dragoon Saga. I wonder what he'd think of that game?

Abriael:

ZippyDSMlee:
[
The problem is unlike the open world FFs and even modern RPGs with less explorable content this thing is a corridor then a large area to tool around in before moving on to the next corridor. The large area with tons of stuff to do is a illusion that fails to pass the test of a good illusion. At least FF12 was awesome in this respect a shame the rest of that game did reach that level of design.

There's no illusion. You can go where you want, do the missions in any order. There's no corridor in that part of the game, and honestly it seems that you're grasping at straws a-la "it's a corridor because I say so! It's no no matter that it doesn't look, feel and play like a corridor! It's an illusion!".

Doesn't fly.

....... *sigh* can't you see what you are saying?
There is no illusion because the game is small and poorly laid out, ya the open areas are nice till you hit the CORRIDORS....... *sigh*

Abriael:

boholikeu:

Fair enough, but like I mentioned before it still looks like gameplay and plot are pretty divorced in FFXIII. It may not be contradictory, but if gameplay isn't related to story in some way then I'd rather just watch the cinematics on youtube than pay $60 for a battle system with a marginally related story.

The gameplay isn't related to the story how? The characters are fugitives. They're hunted. They fight the ones that are hunting them. What's exactly divorced in that?

Hm, let me rephrase this a bit.

When I play a game, I want to actually, you know, play the game, not watch a bunch of cinematics etc about what's happening. You know how they say that a good book "shows" you the story instead of "telling" it to you? Well I believe a good game does the same thing. "showing" in a game is putting me in control and having me act out what's happening. "Telling" would be conveying the plot primarily through cut-scenes or dialogue.

In my experience, FF games and the like typically do the latter. The only interaction you have is typically character customization and combat, and it's related to the story only in that the main characters fight. To me, this feels like if a filmmaker told his entire story by scrolling text across the screen, and then only switched to actual video for the action scenes.

Again, I haven't played FF so I could be wrong. Maybe instead of starting with 20-30 minutes of cut-scenes it starts with a fugitive chase sequence a la HL2 where the player learns the setting through actual gameplay rather than non-interactive exposition.

So, yeah, that's what I mean when I say the gameplay is often divorced from plot in this type of game.

Tetranitrophenol:

I wouldnt spend too much time trying to convince this guy that the game itself sucks. Ever since Yathzee's FF review was released he's been defending the game with Shield and Claymore in hand against the waves of hate.
I gave up trying to convince him when he told me he has played and enjoyed each and every Final Fantasy game since #1 and still thinks FF13 is a Masterpiece. Not that I believe him but if he is capable of saying such things with a straight face then there is no hope for him...except, you know...Hope.

Actually I'm not trying to convince him it "sucks" so much as explain to him what I think Yahtzee meant when he said the game "didn't let you play it". I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can say for sure, but if it's anything like previous games I can understand where he's coming from.

PhunkyPhazon:
Didn't he say the villain wants to blow up the world and that it happens halfway through the game? To me that kind of makes it sound like I just found out the 'who' and 'when' at the very least. Otherwise, I guess you're right. There's always the chance I'm totally wrong, so there's not much point in getting too worked up about it...yet.

He doesn't say who exactly the villain is, and in fact that won't be specifically spoiled until the scene in question. Granted, I always felt it was a tad obvious, but some people think even the likes of FFX weave an amazing tale and are shocked to find that I feel it's predictable and shallow. :/ And I can't speak for it being the exact half-way point or anything, but that's definitely the point where by more modern standards one would expect a game to swap over to disc two, and in this case it kinda turns into a bunch of semi-mandatory sidequests and the game really loses momentum for me. Still my favorite FF despite this, so the series in whole has never totally sucked me in.

Worst case? You end up joining the discussion over yonder, with sympathy:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.186894-Why-oh-why-cant-I-like-Final-Fantasy-6

Not everyone will like 6, not everyone will like 7, and, likewise, not everyone will like 13, and we'll all have our reasons, even if that reason is a simple "I stopped caring" or "It got boring." It happens.

Zukonub:
But I don't think you can say that it is impossible to play FF13... You only got 5 hours in, only unlocked the barest bones of the combat system. Though I do agree with you about the crystarium... We should have just gotten traditional leveling, and at the end, we choose which role we want to level up.

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PLAY A GAME FOR FIVE HOURS BEFORE IT GETS "GOOD", after Yahtzees review I rented FF13 and had pretty much the same experience, simply put IT'S A BAD GAME and people need to stop being so fanboyish over jrpg and realise the whole genre needs an ovehaul, perhaps they should take a look at some more open world wrpgs take some ideas from them, imagine an elder scrolls game with the design and story telling capabilities of the japanese games, perhaps then i'd go back and try a jrpg again.

I pre-orded Mogworld. 8 bucks seems pretty cheap though for a book. It must not be that long.

ZippyDSMlee:

....... *sigh* can't you see what you are saying?
There is no illusion because the game is small and poorly laid out, ya the open areas are nice till you hit the CORRIDORS....... *sigh*

Yes, I see what I'm saying, and that the more you talk, the deeper you dig yourself in, demonstrating that you didn't even touch the game and everything you say is hearsay. The game is nowhere near "small". Sorry to burst your bubble. Play the game, then talk, and if you don't wanna bother playing it, more power to you, but at least stop spewing misinformed posts. It's amusing only for a while.

boholikeu:

When I play a game, I want to actually, you know, play the game, not watch a bunch of cinematics etc about what's happening. You know how they say that a good book "shows" you the story instead of "telling" it to you? Well I believe a good game does the same thing. "showing" in a game is putting me in control and having me act out what's happening. "Telling" would be conveying the plot primarily through cut-scenes or dialogue

That's a difference in storytelling style, it has really nothing to do with quality. You may like one option more than the other (me, I like both, as long as they're well done), but if a developer didn't pick your favourite option, it doesn't suddenly turn the game into a bad one.

Actually I'm not trying to convince him it "sucks" so much as explain to him what I think Yahtzee meant when he said the game "didn't let you play it". I haven't played FFXIII yet so I can say for sure, but if it's anything like previous games I can understand where he's coming from.

What he meant was basically "I didn't care for the game from the beginning, I really didn't want to play it, but I had to, so i sat on my couch ranting, with a completely closed and narrow mind, slaved through the first few chapters without even paying attention, and then filled my half of my five minutes with hearsay and stuff i read on forums".

Mind you, I'm actually happy for him, since he can afford playing a game for only 5 hours before doing his piece. Any gaming journalist working for any semi-serious publication that not only did that, but actually proudly declared that, would normally be shown the door or at least heavily reprimanded 5 minutes after delivering his piece.
When I worked as a print gaming journalist, I slaved my way through 15-20 hours of plenty crappy games, unsightly stuff like Energy Airforce or Mission Impossible: Operation over Surma, with a mouth as wide as my leg for the excessive yawning. Why? because that's the professional way to do it and that's the only way to deliver an actually informed review.
Could I have gotten more or less the same results just by skimming forums and slapping a ton of hearsay in my articles? You betcha. But that's no way to earn your salary.

If gaming journalism is a job, he just suddenly decided that he had enough halfway through his shift and walked out of the office. Very professional indeed.

But hey, good for him if he can get away with it, seriously.

Batsamaritan:

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PLAY A GAME FOR FIVE HOURS BEFORE IT GETS "GOOD"

And in fact you don't. The introductory part that's very basic lasts one hour or so. It's the first two very quick chapters. After that you unlock the crystarium and the paradygm shift and it's all downhill.
Mind you, before that it's not a bad game, it's just an introduction. No better or worse than the first level of Mass Effect 2 in the Cerberus station. Just slightly longer. Biiig deal.

after Yahtzees review I rented FF13 and had pretty much the same experience, simply put IT'S A BAD GAME and people need to stop being so fanboyish over jrpg and realise the whole genre needs an ovehaul, perhaps they should take a look at some more open world wrpgs take some ideas from them, imagine an elder scrolls game with the design and story telling capabilities of the japanese games, perhaps then i'd go back and try a jrpg again.

Oh lovely! Hey Japanese guys! you need to do like the western guys, because their way is good, your way is bad!
It's funny how everyone praises bioware for making an RPG (that I love, mind you) that sticks to the tradition of western RPGs, with quite old, but still very fun concepts, but some very vocal western-centric fanatics can't extend Japanese developers the same luxury of sticking to their OWN traditions in games development.

An Japanese Elder scrolls game? No thanks. The main strenghts of Japanese games lay in the characters and the storytelling. That's the main weakness of bethesda, and that comes exactly from the fact that bethesda spends a lot of resources in making the world sandboxish and the quests relatively open ended, letting storytelling suck horribly.
Why should other developers copy their style? If I want a game like that I'll buy the next TES (or will simply play my heavily modded Oblivion, that's still plenty good even today, technically).
A lot of people need to get a notion through their head. Different developers and different kind of games cater to different tastes. There is a LOT of people out there that enjoy the JRPG style throughly, just as much as there's a lot of people that enjoy western RPGs, and another lot that enjoy both.
The fact that you enjoy only one kind doesn't mean that the other kind "IS A BAD GAME" (with customary troll-like all-caps. We can hear you, you know? We just don't agree). It just means that the other kind just isn't for you.
"The game sucks because the developer didn't bend over twice and make the game the way *I* like it!" Is one of the most silly arguments ever.
You like open-world western RPGs? Great. Me too. Buy those and stop bitching.
Other people like (or also like) heavily story-driven JRPGs. It's their taste and it doesn't mean that they're being "Fanboyish" just because their taste doesn't match yours.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the fact that you don't like them doesn't mean that the genre needs to disappear.

Want a JRPG that took a lot of inspiration from western RPGs and innovated the genre? get White Knight chronicles. You don't like that one for other reasons? Too bad. Others do.

Personally I enjoyed FF I-VII (none of the remakes) and then never cared for any other Final Fantasy afterwards and though I enjoy the storyline of FFVII I got to go with Yahtzee on this one, Chrono Trigger is far more interesting and fun than FFVII was for me.

There's a lot of things I could say.

I'll simply say this though, and leave it at that.

Yahtzee gave a valid criticism. Notice his review trends- he stays away from certain genres. He has barely touched RTS's at all, if you really want to call Halo Wars an RTS, and his reviews for FPS's, RPGs, ect are typically heavy of the criticism unless it's really properly a game unto itself (IE: Fallout 3.) So he effectively has what you could probably call really high standards. If there's something wrong in a game at all he's going to point it out.

If after five hours he could not get into the game that's his own call. If his superiors decide that's not proper journalistic grade material that's also their call.

Really, though, all I really want to ask is this:

Does his criticisms on FF13 somehow impact your own enjoyment? If you like the game good for you. Any self respecting gamer in the current market should know that there really isn't so much the "good" and "bad" game anymore so much as ones that merely don't appeal to you. Or at least that's much more the case now than when a 16 bit system was hot shit.

Abriael:

You know, people with a brain have opinions and ideas. They often defend them even if you happen to believe they are wrong and "try to convince" them.

Or maybe you think that someone should immediately stand at attention and bend over as soon as you tell them "you're wrong!" with some weak argument made up of hearsay and prejudices?

The fact that a random guy on the internet with awful gaming tastes, whose job is bashing games while blabbering without pauses hates a game, doesn't automatically make that game bad (actually, it raises the chances for that game to be actually good).

To be honest, I played FF and many other JRPGs (and RPGs for that matter) back in the day, to the point that uttering the words Final Fantasy to my parents will result in a "eeeesh..>.>" expression out of them.
Altho, I would love it if people were as submissive with my opinion as you say, I hardly believe that my arguments are made up of "hearsay and prejudices". You see, being in a conscious state while I played the FF series (not blinded by fanaticism) I realized that after FF7 the game storyline began to have strange turns (the main character's backstory more Emoish or the overall story being more Dramatic) but it was ok, that is, until FF10, which showed us that the game developers preferred to make the game pretty and romantic rather than challenging, open and good, presumably because they tough that it was more economically efficient for their target audiecne to be composed mostly of people that currently hang out in your local HotTopic. I barely finished FF10 which left me with somewhat empty inside... FF12's main character killed it, and of course FF13 having such a bad design (read about it).

As for Yathzee being a bad critic, well he's an odd one, I give you that, but one that prefers to tell me why I shouldn't buy a game rather than why I should. I don't always agree with him. A game is supposed to be good and have good parts, I don't need anybody to tell me that.

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