Revenge

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Also, for someone who hates Joss Whedon, FSG:TG is sounding more and more like Firefly.

perhaps the protagonist in FSG:TG used to work for wheel but did something naughty, and had to run away, thus no longer having any money, and constantly being hunted by bounty hunters/wheel itself...?

j0frenzy:
I'm kind of surprised that he never mentioned the super gravity gun from Half Life 2, because when it comes to end game super badassery that moment did it right. Introduce a game breaking mechanic that comes into play for only a small portion of the game. Get to kill enemies that have been bothersome all game by just breathing on them, but not have it last for too long to get boring.

What also made this for me was the sheer volume of guards they threw at you. It made sense, you were in their base, so they're swarming, but they fucked up and super powered your best weapon into an unstoppable bringer of death. It was still challenging, due to sheer number, but the badassery levels were through the roof. I didn't really like the fact that you willingly gave yourself to them before the end though, especially after that. It didn't make much sense...

Also, another form of this pops up in the end of episode 2. I mean come on, how awesome is it bringing down a freaking dozen striders, and an assload of hunters. It was the best part of the entire series for me, finally kicking their asses with about half a second to spare...

I am glad to hear you haven't given up on FSG:TG. Most hobby game devs, my self included, get realy excited about a new idea for a few weeks but loose interest over the following months. Stay strong Yahtzee, stay strong.

I list my all-time favorite book as The Count of Monte Cristo.

Somehow, I am unsurprised by this. In a different time and place, I think Mr. Croshaw would be the kind of man seeking to blow up Parliament.

I'm sorry, but WHAT? Niko is one of your favorite characters? That sort of contradicts... Everything you said in both that review and your Saint's Row 2 review.

Also, are you honestly saying that Oblivion would've been better if you had to fight wolves the entire game, rather than the giant crocodile things? Seems to me that all games increase enemies' power as you increase in level.

Regarding the first thing you mentioned, i hated borderlands for not doing it right, when i returned to the place i started afer completing the game the first time i was disapointed to discover even the baby skags had a shot at eating my balls for dinner.

Then when i completed it for the second time all the enemies in the game were of the same level i was, stucked at the level cap of 50 (and misteriously were sill kinda harder to kill in some advanced areas).

Then with the first dlc i was hoping for the best, but that only lead to enemies being 1 level stronger than myself (51) and i being still stocked in the level cap.

You might say i've been spending too much time and efort in a game that doesn't seem to care how i feel (doubly so considering i played single player always). And i would say ¡¡GET THE FU** OUT OF MY HEAD YOU ANALYST BASTARD, YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!

*starts cuting his arm with a spoon*

Dracosage:
Also, for someone who hates Joss Whedon, FSG:TG is sounding more and more like Firefly.

The concept of down-on-their-luck space salvagers probably predates Whedon's birth by a good decade or two. The FSG:TG premise sounds like an updated version of that ancient Atari 2600 game, Solar Fox.

I'm sick of levelling characters in games. I was sick of it in P&P RPGs too, and it was practically a dead mechanic until the D&D 3e/d20 revival. But console/PC RPGs still cling to this 40-year-old concept. I'll forgive it in MMOs because you need that motivation to keep grinding for days on end and because I don't play them. Levelling, if you use it at all, should be skill/ability-based.

Niko's accent is actually terrible (I'm from Croatia so I know), but I guess you guys don't care.

Holy shit he used my comment =D

Okay, now that i've calmed down from the absolute joy, revenge is a bit of an overused plot device in games. But if done right it can be incredibly effective.

Thanks for stealing my entire Too Human rant, jerk! I was *stoked* to buy a copy of Too Human right up until the first real review hit, the morning of release.

I dialled my phone to cancel my pre-order the second I saw "enemies level up."

Am I playing a different version of Oblivion? 'Cause I'm all levelled up with Daedric armor and weapons -- completed the main quest ages ago -- and nothing's terribly troublesome anymore. I still try to avoid getting swarmed, but there's almost nothing that won't go down in two or three hits. Even in an Ayleid ruin filled with vampires, I just crouch down, loose an electric arrow into them from a safe distance, get the 3X sneak attack bonus, and they go down in one, ragdolling across the room.

Borderlands, however, is starting to cheese me off. Not because stuff levels up with you, but because areas don't stay cleaned out. I'm one of those meticulous types that sweeps through everywhere, making sure I found and killed everything, so that there's nothing left to cause me trouble. In Oblivion, stuff will respawn, but it will take two or three game days to do it. In Borderlands, nests of baddies (bandits, skags, rakks, whatever) that you completely rocket-blasted into powder refill themselves in five minutes.

Not only in RPGs, but also variations on action games with New game+ is awesome too (Bayonetta with the Durgas on Easy and AC6 on the first level on Normal with the F22 was a pure joy for me)
:D

Great writing as usual! But I guess the chance of mr Yahtzee and Rebecca hooking up is a slim one. Considering the 'sexy accent' comment ;)

The ending bits of Half-Life 2 are a great example of this.

Mirror's Edge had a one sided upgrade system. The baddies get tougher, and you are expected to get better at running in a semi open environment. Even if they throw you in an enclosed, linear environment.

I don't know. The classic RPG-leveling-up-fight-tougher-baddies-get-upgrades-and-improve-yourself model is definitely ONE way of running the game and ensuring that you have an incentive to keep playing, with the revenge motive being a nice little cherry on top. But I don't think it is the only way to do it, and I feel like a lot of games have adopted that as the standard even when it doesn't necessarily suite the game.

The problem with a leveling-upgrade system is that you have to provide such a ludicriously wide range of opponents that unless the game is very carefully paced it can really mess up the narrative. A game where you start out fighting rats and having a hard time of it, but then, two in game weeks later, you are tangling with ogres and dragons and the like, is kind of silly. It took me longer than two weeks to remember where the paper towel was kept at my last job. Plus, sometimes you're not in the mood to start as a nobody and progress up to the biggest guy in the world.

A lot of my favorite games are games which feature a protagonist who is stable, and the progress you make is your own ability as a player to play that protagonist. For example, the Thief games feature a protagonist who starts out as a master thief, but you still feel challenged at the beginning because you are getting into the swing of things. As the game progresses you go up against harder and harder situations, and even though your character is not changing or getting stronger you as a player are getting better and better at the game and thinking your way through those situations. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is another example--you start out as this amazing acrobat, but as the game goes by the challenges get harder and harder and you yourself have to rise to the challenge as you work to play the Prince in a way consistent with his awesomeness (of course, the combat in that game gets a bit repetitive, but I don't think the addition of upgrades would have helped that).

The nice thing about a game in which it is the player who gets better rather than the character is that you feel like your progress is somehow more real--if it is your character in the game who gets better, often you actually get worse as a player, because things get easier and easier as you character and his or her upgrades pick up more of the slack. In games like that I've often found that if I start over and go back to the beginning it is waaaay more difficult for me than playing my fully loaded character in the climactic final stages of the game because I don't have all the nifty upgrades that make it easier to aim and increase my speed and jump height and all that. Plus, if you become a better player you can take that with you beyond the game. Now, depending on the game the knowledge and skills you take with you may not exactly be applicable in modern life, but I'd like to think that sneaking around in Thief has made me better at that in real life, and if I ever had to do that I would be better at it than if I had not played Thief. If the only improvement is to your character in the game, he will vanish as soon as your hard drive fries.

As far as revenge stories go, Edgar Allan Poe's Cask of Amontillado has to be one of my favorite stories in all of fiction. It's only a few pages long, so I'd certainly recommend it for anyone who hasn't already read it.

In today's day and age, revenge is never a happy event. Even upon achieving retribution, it's quickly found out that there is either

a) Little other meaning in the avenger's life now.
b) A slew of other problems brought about by the revenge coming to fruition.
c) No happiness gained in the moment of revenge, but rather regret or despair.

Or any number of other issues. That's precisely why I like The Cask of Amontillado so much: It ends in revenge as a happy ending. It was the story of an offended man who took revenge on his offender by tricking him into following him deep into his wine cellar, and then burying him alive by chaining him into an alcove and erecting a wall. After he's done, he just leaves.

There is not even a tinge of regret or remorse in the main character's voice; he enjoys his work thoroughly. After he nearly finishes walling up his opponent, he sits on a pile of bones in the catacomb so he can properly enjoy the screaming. At one point, it teases you into thinking he feels regret, only to further solidify just how cold the main character is: "My heart grew sick; it was the dampness of the catacombs that made it so."

No moral lesson learned. No angst or gloom or sorrow. Nothing but the simple message of "Payback's a bitch" learned in one of the most horrific ways possible. Why can't more revenge stories be like that?

Sometimes i like to take my frustration out on everyone is STALKER; Call of Pripyat's Zone becuase the whole enviroment used to fuck me over royally. "Whos shooting who in the face now! Muhahahahahaha! Im a God!"[1]. I just kill everything that looks at me funny.

Being an exoskeleton wearing, Guass Gun weilding, Zulu's MG waving all powefull bastard after so long having to sprint away from some firefights shouting "Fuck! shit! fuck!" as you realise you AK-47 aint worth shit against these mercs is a pretty overal satisfying feeling.

[1] first time i got the exoskeleton i felt like this. Then after about two minues it turned into "dam im slow..."

Kushin:
Ah... I remember Metroid Fusion, owning the SA-X with the Ice Beam after so long felt so good.

You mean the Ice Missiles? You never fought SA-X with the Ice Beam.

what about the characters in lost and damned and TBOGT? no mention of them!

UltimatheChosen:

Kushin:
Ah... I remember Metroid Fusion, owning the SA-X with the Ice Beam after so long felt so good.

You mean the Ice Missiles? You never fought SA-X with the Ice Beam.

Oh of course, that's my mistake. I was confusing myself. Omega Metroid is what you fight with ice beam. Oh well, still.. kicking the SA-X's firm, samus-ly hiney is revenge enough for me.

Revenge is a dish best served with new weapons.

Yes, one thing I really hate about Oblivion is that your weapons get LESS effective against the same enemies. "I used to kill you in one hit, and how it takes three!"

Conversely, I am finding a similar progression in Mass Effect 2 on a repeat playthrough of the game. Experience is no longer relevant, but you still have to buy (very expensive) upgrades to your weapons. As such, at first, you start out with piddly little pea-shooters that get more effective - especially against the more dangerous enemies - as you purchase more upgrades.

My goodness is it satisfying to kill a Harbinger in a single headshot.

Well finally someone asked about FSG:TG, I thought for a moment that he always wrote about it in extra punctuation because he had nothing else to write about :D

I'm on the last book of The Count of Monte Cristo, really great searies of books, worth a peak if you are the type that even reads sometimes...

Umm... it's just one book. And it's essentially impossible for there to be any sequels to it. Are you thinking of The Three Musketeers?

Or you can do the opposite of revenge, that is, have the level one boss turn out to be the ultimate bad guy with fucking huge hp.

Fucking Garland.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
But I have been thinking ahead, specifically about the protagonist and how to characterize him. Once again, the things we already know about him from the gameplay choices can fill in a few blanks. We know he's a pilot who makes a living salvaging junk from crash sites, so he doesn't exactly have a stable income and he's not too proud to be a bottom feeder. And we know that at some point he'll be willing to antagonize a huge, resourceful organization of armed fanatics despite having only a tiny salvage vessel to his name. So this all paints a picture of a man who has perhaps fallen from grace and no longer gives a shit whether he lives or dies.

C'mon Yahtzee. Him, he? Women can be disgraced and apathetic too. Besides, its not like in space games anyone can really sexualise the game - no one's casing Lara Crofts' arse like an episode of Challenge Anika here, are they?

"This was the problem with Oblivion - the enemies all leveled up parallel to you. First rule of mathematics, people: when you add something to both sides of an equation and nothing changes, you might as well not have bothered."

This may be the first thing ZP's said that I've ever wholeheartedly agreed with.
*runs to check the rotation of the Earth*
Wierd....I feel dirty...

schrodngerscat42:
Is it just me, or is the protagonist of Fun Space Game starting to sound a lot like Malcolm Reynolds?

Except probably not officially since Yahtzee hates Joss Weedon, if asked Yahtzee might say "It's Malcolm Reynolds would be if he had actual edge and wasn't just a blandly tame mouthpiece for Weedon one-liners who occassionally scowled at things"
His words, not mine :p

I would've thought that Nico's fat cousin asking you to go see 'Big American Titties' would've helped make Nico more relatable. Everyone has an idiot friend/relative, and so does Nico.

Count of Monte Cristo is also perhaps my all time favorite book! Awesomeness.

The problem with Oblivion is that the enemies aren't really levelling up with you in a smooth manner. There are maybe 4 sets of enemies. Once you got to a certain level the whole set is exchanged (new set of armor for human enemies). The problem is you are leveling kind of smooth, while the villains do one BIG step. So every time the set is exchange you probably get your arse kicked for some levels, then kind of master the current set until the one. This instantly kills the feeling of any progress. In the end, when the game runs out of sets, you end up with a world full of VERY aggressive and dangerous wildlife (how do normal civillians get along with them?), perplexingly well equipped bandits (where do they get their stuff if they are hanging around in the same camp/ruin all day?) and some laughable weak questenemies (why they do not grow with the character?).
And now THE question: Why did they do that? In my opinion the way Morrowind handled the whole thing was much better. You could have been surprised in this game when blindly running into a ruin. It was always your choice where to go and who to fight. Even if you "screwed" your character by levelling up by raising skills that are irrellevant to fighting you still had a chance.

Yahtzee likes Count of Monte Cristo. Another point in his favor. I actually count Les Miserables as a favorite, too, so you don't need to worry too much about seeming like a literary fag.

Toasty Virus:
I actually liked Niko too, He was a well thought out character and I really felt for him at certain points in the game

Yea, but didn't Yahtzee refer to Niko as an angsty cunt in one of his reviews?

I wonder what brings about the change of heart.

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