The Spoiler That Changed the World

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While we see significant differences between mythic fantasy and sci-fi, at the end of the day they all fall into the same box of 'fantasy' which means not reality. Things that are fantastic. There are no real rules here. Not as much has really changed, I think.

Yes, Iron Man has been broadly set in a plausible alternative to the real world thus far. But with the lead up to the Avengers film, they'll inevitably have to stretch that. As of the opening of IM 2, Tony Stark basically owns the world and is the undisputedly most powerful dude. After all, in that world there are no 'super heroes' - just some kick arse tech.

I don't know how they'll make Thor and Captain America (and whoever else) work in a semi-realistic setting, but by their mere superheroic presence they will have to diminish Iron Man's relative importance within the world.

Aerodyth:

twm1709:
BTW: was I the only one to assume the element Tony created was to be called VIBRANIUM? just wiki it.

The funny part is that he had vibranium sitting in his garage the entire time.

Also, with SHIELD finding the shield, this brings up the question of how does Thor get his hammer? Does he go to SHIELD and ask politely? Unless SHIELD gives it to him early in the movie, will he go the majority of the film without his signature weapon?

That would be painfully videogame of them wouldn't it? It'd be just like Metroid . . . the signature character, the signature look, but oops, lost everything within 5 mins so no super mc-awesomepants special weapons of mass EPIC for you untill 20 hours from now. Just in time for one boss fight and the credits roll. That would be VERY disapointing.

As for you BOB!

ENKC:
Yes, Iron Man has been broadly set in a plausible alternative to the real world thus far. But with the lead up to the Avengers film, they'll inevitably have to stretch that. As of the opening of IM 2, Tony Stark basically owns the world and is the undisputedly most powerful dude. After all, in that world there are no 'super heroes' - just some kick arse tech.

I don't know how they'll make Thor and Captain America (and whoever else) work in a semi-realistic setting, but by their mere superheroic presence they will have to diminish Iron Man's relative importance within the world.

You're forgetting one tiny detail, the fact that most often these hero groups (despite things like the justice league scenario or . . . worse yet . . . "super friends" The REAL seeming groups always work the way S.H.I.E.L.D. does. No one knows who they are, they're a shadow company, black ops OF the black ops. This is the kind of group buried SO deep under red tape and layers of bureaucracy that not even Nick Fury would know for sure if it exists. Meaning that Iron Man won't be perse taken down the ladder a few rungs, but RATHER, he'll be kept under Bruce Wayne level secrecy, being one of few to know what the hell is ACTUALLY going on.

Well, to me, it doesn't change the setting at all. It just mean it's a regular American comics setting, i.e. a clusterfuck of conflicting origin stories elbowing each other to make as much sense as possible while remaining true to their original ideas.

If at the center of the crater there had been, say, a naked pale man wearing a strange helmet, then I would say it was something strange. I would also probably stalk and viciously murder a number of executive producers.

Mikkaddo:
/snip

The short answer is, that was the "joke" I was talking about in the review. I don't think that thing is what it (sort of) looks like, and I don't think it ever was. I think the movie was making a funny at the expense of the people who went nuts over a freeze-frame of some random props on Stark's desk in #1, so in this one the guy holds it up and Stark goes "omigod, that's it!!!" as though it actually IS what people thought, but then it just turns out to be something he can use to prop up the machine. Ha ha.

What's funny is, people are SO distracted by this little inside joke, they're missing all the ACTUAL references surrounding that same part. Example: Is NO ONE the least bit curious to know how it is that Nick Fury knew Howard Stark, apparently in some kind of professional capacity? Wouldn't that make him A LOT older than he appears, potentially? Also, I haven't seen it again to verify yet, but apparently there's file-photos of Antarctica in that S.H.I.E.L.D. case - what's that about? and Fury has a marked map of Africa on his safe-house wall - Wakanda? Black Panther?

The post-credits teaser would have had a LOT more impact if they hadn't previously announced that they were working on a Thor movie. Anyone who would bother to make it a point to sit through the credits already knew that the movie was being worked on, so it was kind of a pointless tease. Had we no knowledge of it though? That would be an entirely different story all-together. Then it'd be like Marvel was saying "BAM! Didn't see that comin', did ya?"

Instead it was a brief "Oh snap it's Thor's Hammer!" followed shortly after by a "Meh, already knew that anyway."

the thing with Thor is that in an attempt to work around the obvious 'wait, how does fantasy fit into a primarily science-fiction setting?' they've said that the Aesir are some kind of super race that just ages slower and aren't REALLY gods that have magic. Basically, flimsy excuse to try and make the Avengers set up work better.

matrix3509:
I'm not sure how any sane person could just completely right[sic] off a movie thats at least three years away from being made, especially when you consider what studio is behind it all.

Marvel has already locked in May 4, 2012 as the release date for The Avengers so change "at least three years away" to "less than two."

That alone should give you pause.

MovieBob:

- I could be wrong, but I think people are misinterpreting the "shield" joke in this, i.e. I don't think that's ACTUALLY supposed to be Captain America's shield. In the first movie, there was a random object on Stark's desk that the internet thought was the shield because it kinda looked like it in freeze-frame. In IM2, if you look at the way the scene is timed, it seems like it was meant to be a fake-out - i.e. the agent holds up that same random object, Stark goes "that's it!!!" drumroll... and then they use it to prop up the dohickey. "Gotcha!" I think it's just a bit of fun being had at the expense of people who've been clue-hunting like mad ever since that big S.H.I.E.L.D. crate turned up. Speaking of which...

This is the only thing you've said so far that I disagree with. Captain America's shield sticks out like a sore thumb, I don't really see how you could mistaken it for something else.

That, and the SHIELD agent is completely shocked to find it in Tony's penthouse. "How did you get this? Do you have ANY idea what this is!?" I interpret Tony's reaction of using it as a prop to mean that he simply doesn't know what it really is. So I guess how you interpret the scene really depends on how you interpret Tony's reaction.

...Though there is one contradiction. If that's supposed to be Cap's shield, then what the hell is his possibly frozen body holding in the deleted scene from Hulk?

Maybe the one Tony has was a prototype that got beat-up, leading to it getting replaced by this one? Or maybe I'm just overthinking things, after all I'm comparing the shield in Iron Man to a deleted scene from a different movie (Even if that movie is set in the same universe). And these guys spare no expense at getting our fanboy minds worked up, so it could have also been a simple oversight on their part. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure where that scene is supposed to take place. But god damn, speculating this stuff is fun =P

The Thor tease was cool...but I liked the Captain America tease more.

In Iron Man 2, Tony's going through his fathers stuff andwhn hes building the mini-hadron-collider. This other guy comes in (cant remember who it was) and pulls out a half-finished (or half-demolished) shield....with the captain america star on it!

Tony says thats perfect and uses it as something to level out his machine...i thought it was a nice tease and proves that Starks father was connected to Captain America and that links Iron Man, Captain America and The Hulk seamlessly.

How are they going to seamlessly introduce Thor???

Actually, that's a really good point. This does introduce "magic" into the films, which may or may not be a good thing.

Never really put much thought into it; the whole "check your brain out at the door" thing with superhero movies. I figure, heck, if they can make it fun, I'll watch it and let the pantheons sort it out later.

PhunkyPhazon:
I really hope the Avengers movie lives up to its hype. Imagine if after all this build-up and speculation it ends up being complete and utter crap. My fanboy heart might not bear it.

no... please. don't say it. it might happen if you say it out loud.

Am I to understand from this that the Thor movie will be a little bit like Hellboy? As in: it'll involve a lot of mythical and legendary beasts, characters and subject matter but integrated with a modern setting with some big mythical being beating the crap out of all of it. If it's "what Hellboy should have been if blah, blah and blah" then I'm all for it.

P.S.

Don't take that "Hellboy" bit as an insult to what could be a great movie (Thor), I personally thought Hellboy wasn't that bad; it was just... average. Yeah it wasn't brilliant but it wasn't a total disaster like other people would like to believe, it was just okay, I suppose.

ninja555:
Could someone post a link to a vid of that Godfather part 2 scene?

*facepalm*

Anyway, I look forward to Thor with the same bored neutrality and expectations for mediocrity with which I view the Iron Man films. Will see it on DVD, may be entertained, will not squeal with excitement.

Primus1985:

Hubilub:

Secondly, the avengers movie and the presence of Thor was announced before this film. And so, many would've expected some sort of cameo like this.

I'm not saying it wasn't epic, because it really was. But it wasn't mind-blowing and I firmly believe that it was more about fan-service than actually making audiences unknown to Thor aware of him.

Oh, and I take it that you're talking about Mandarin at the end of your article? He was announced as a possible villain for Iron Man 2 after the first one, and so it was never out of reach for the second installment. Plus, since the gang from the first film was a direct reference to him, he'll probably show up soon.

Nailed it on the head. MovieBob waaay overacted, if he didnt see something like that coming a mile away the he hasnt been a movie critic very long and is oblivious to the Marvel-verse.

And dont compare Ironman to Batman its just wrong, two differnet types of hero's so of course there movies will be completly different. In fact he's whole backing of Ironman2 scares me a little.

Bob is mostly truthful when reviewing movies but he likes to rip into movies I like, The new Star Trek and the new Transformers movies being just a few examples. He does get it right occasionally, Clash of the Titans, but he was overly critcal. I liked Iron Man but that could be the exception not the rule.

Bob probably saw it coming before you. From what I can gather, he's pretty clued in on movies and the criticisim of them. link: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1604-Avengers-Assemble

Hubilub:

[...]
It doesn't even make sense if you discard the fact that it's completely random to have a light saber in the ending, because Star Wars is set way ahead of Godfather 2 (remember, a long long loooong time ago), which would just make it even more stupid.

So in short, comparing the after-credits scene in Iron Man 2 to a made-up scene with Robert Duvall finding a light saber does not make any sense whatsoever.

It is possible that a light saber was discarded in space and travelled for a long, long time from a galaxy far, far away?

pearcinator:
The Thor tease was cool...but I liked the Captain America tease more.
[...]

But I liked how you didn't read the thread and essentially paraphrased all of the previous comments as if they'd never happened.

MovieBob:

What's funny is, people are SO distracted by this little inside joke, they're missing all the ACTUAL references surrounding that same part. Example: Is NO ONE the least bit curious to know how it is that Nick Fury knew Howard Stark, apparently in some kind of professional capacity? Wouldn't that make him A LOT older than he appears, potentially? Also, I haven't seen it again to verify yet, but apparently there's file-photos of Antarctica in that S.H.I.E.L.D. case - what's that about? and Fury has a marked map of Africa on his safe-house wall - Wakanda? Black Panther?

I had pretty much pegged Fury for what I call "The Immortal" in all these super hero series (aside from Thor and his ilk) there's always a shady figure that's been around a LOT longer than he lets on. At least except for those teasing bits and bobs like speaking of working with Howard Stark in his prime and what not. But then . . . it makes one also wonder how long S.H.I.E.L.D. has been around as well. If Nick Fury was working with Howard Stark in the cold war/WWII era, and is looking to be a founder (not an avid comic book reader so pardon any lack of long ago released knowledge from the comics) one has to wonder just when that founding was.

This is a bit of a stretch coming in, but bear(sp?) with me. See, the word shield is older than america as a nation, back to the tribes almost one can think. So, theoretically, if the use of the english language (perhaps pre american pilgrims) was having the habit of making acronyms it could have been something buried within the English Royalty even. After all, we know in most of the comic book universes there's been superheroes as long as there's been people. Honestly it wouldn't surpise me if there was suddenly a black and white picture with a date like "1907" or some other ancient date that had Fury standing in the background in his token coat and eye patch. That would be certainly something I could appreciate.

PhunkyPhazon:
This is the only thing you've said so far that I disagree with. Captain America's shield sticks out like a sore thumb, I don't really see how you could mistaken it for something else.

Like I said, I could be wrong but it strikes me that A.) no one from the production has said "yeah, good catch" about the thing on the table (when they've been pretty upfront in telling people when they catch all the other easter-eggs) and B.) making a "gotcha" out of it in this one. Obviously, they know what people are thinking when they see it (they probably even considered that really hardcore fans are wondering if the "new element" will be Vibranium from a piece of the shield) I just think they're making a funny as opposed to making Cap's first "presence" in the main series into a comedy bit.

MovieBob:
The Spoiler That Changed the World

What would you do if a single scene changed everything you thought you knew about a movie? (Warning: Spoilers for Iron Man 2!)

Read Full Article

You honestly believe the writers of the Iron Man movies do not employ heavy magic wand actions in their script? .... this is like trying the argue for the misguided notion that the spiderman movies employ more science than fantasy.

SomeUnregPunk:

MovieBob:
The Spoiler That Changed the World

What would you do if a single scene changed everything you thought you knew about a movie? (Warning: Spoilers for Iron Man 2!)

Read Full Article

You honestly believe the writers of the Iron Man movies do not employ heavy magic wand actions in their script? .... this is like trying the argue for the misguided notion that the spiderman movies employ more science than fantasy.

This I agree with. At least for the second movie. Especially with how Stark resolves the whole "electrical poisoning" subplot.

And the reveal in the post-credits scene wasn't that big a deal. A couple people who stayed in the theater wondered aloud "What's that?" and some comics-literate companion said "Oh, that's Thor's hammer, he's going to be in the Avengers with Iron Man" (or something along those lines), which was met with a "Huh, cool" response.

The funny thing is, after sitting through Iron Man 2's credits with my parents to see the "final" extra scene, I tried to explain to them the significance of what was shown, and their reactions were pretty much as MovieBob described in the imaginary scenario.

Unfortunately, I had a hard time explaining it to them since I don't know anything about Thor. Just that he's a Marvel superhero.

I wish Thor never existed in marvel universe. I don`t mind if they just delete this character from history. He is just lame.

It's a really big shame Marvel no longer holds the movierights to Deadpool. Otherwise we could have a bunch of Symbiote-infected dinosaurs running through New York in the Avengers movie.

I actually sat through the credits, and saw this scene, and my response was a little different... it was "OH MY GOD NO! NOT THOR!!"

I mean, I like the character design in a vacuum, but I don't like him in the context of everything else.. It is exactly this "genre changing twist" described in this article that I don't like.

When I played Marvel Ultimate Alliance, the thing that bothered me the most was this twisting sense of reality. One minute you're on a SHIELD airbase, the next you're in Atlantis, Then you're in Hell, then you're in Asgard, and through the whole thing, I was just like "OMG STOP I CANT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY AT ALL"

I'm going to see the Thor movie. I'm probably going to like it. But it's going to have to be REALLY fucking good, and make a LOT of fucking sense for it to not bring down the whole Avengers crossover movie idea in my eyes. They also better have a decent design for Thor's costume. There's been a couple throughout the years, and none of them would be very good for these awesome new film costumes.

Don't all of the marvel characters live in the same universe? Once we have the Avengers, what's to stop them from enlisting a teenage spider man or requesting the help from the X-Men? Can't wait for shit like THAT to start happening.

Just don't care for Thor's contribution. And if they try and connect that shitty Ghost Rider movie to this, I'll cry a nerdy tear

I did have a literal Nerdgasm seeing a prototype Captain America shield in Howard Stark's possession. What could that mean? Howard Stark working on Captain America before he died? That's the movie I really want to see next. What is the element that Tony Stark invented (Or rather, his father somehow invented by drawing it. Somehow that worked.) It wasn't named in the movie (I don't think). Could it be Vibranium?

I mean, the Cap shield was missing a lot of its bulk.. Howard Stark was working on the ultimate shield for Cap, to replace the kite shield shaped one from world war 2.. But didn't have the technology to create the element he knew he'd need to create the perfect shield for captain america.. and then Cap is lost in combat.. the shield and the element go unfinished.. Howard Stark passes both on to his son. It's very feasible.. maybe that was explained as vibranium and I'm postulating over the explained, but I don't think it was, I would have noticed that.

Bob always tells a good story. Thanks, man.

Can't wait 'till Hammer time! (dated back joke FTW)

I totally thought that the crater was some sort of mining whole or something to that effect

Two pages to make half of a point...

eels05:
Its going to be interesting to watch how they merge supernatural with uber-technology without it getting embarrassing.

The only time I remmeber this being pulled off to a slightly satisfying level was in the Hellboy comics, when Mike Mignola drew a gigantic space vessel monitoring an ancient cosmic horror.

The way it was portrayed added to the context of the plot.

It will take not only mutual respect for the styles between the directors of all the heroes that will unite to be the Avengers.

And a special talent to juggle it together in a seemingly believabel storyline for the actual Avengers movie.

Hell, the avengers themselves in the comics never really convinced me as group. Good luck doing that in the movies.

I still think that the other hook in the film was funnier.

I think you might be suffering from a bit of fan boy puppy love this time around Bob. I found Iron Man 2 a significantly less interesting and fun movie than the first. And tying this into the current thread regarding the avengers, I think the primary issue with the movie was including shield at all!

Now before you all get your panties in a bunch, I'll state on the record that Iron man 2 wasn't a BAD movie. It just wasn't good, and the worst thing is that it had the potential to be SO much better. Just by tightening the story and removing some of the truly unnecessery elements, change the pacing a little, and give the bad guys more character development time, and you got a good film. Lets break down exactly what did go wrong.

First off, there's the entire protagonist deliemma we're presented with. Stark spends the ENTIRE movie trying to deal with his daddy issues and his mortality, only at the 11th hour to look at a model of a city, que the flashbulb light on how to solve the paladium degredation issue, and hes fixed! The entire plot of the story essentially boils down to this

Tony Stark: "Oh noes, imma die! Better go out with a bang!"
1.5 hours of going out with a fizzle. Time to wrap things up.
Nick Fury: "I am sick of the motherfucking sickness in this motherfucking hero! Fix yourself!"
Tony Stark: "Why didn't my daddy love me. Oh look, old behind the scenes footage! Daddy DID love me!"
Robot AI butler: "It is impossible to create a new power source master."
Tony Stark: "I'll show YOU robo butler! Get me some duct tape, captain America's shield and a large hadron collider!"
Robot AI butler: "You have created a new element in 5 minutes. MACGRUBER!"
Tony Stark: "I win!"
Make out with Pepper Pots.
Fin.

Now it's easy to poke fun at this plot, because the simple premise of it is redicilous. WHY spend an entire superhero movie watching a rich kid chuck a tantrum only to resolve all his issues in a 5 minute building montage scene with ACDC playing in the background? And even THEN it was a relucatant return to stark's history. The writers seemed adamant on including as much S.H.I.E.L.D action as possible, all to no avail. the bad guys got NO airtime, there was no character development, the love interest plot with Peper was back to square 1, nothing really HAPPENED! I can't fault the acting, nor the cast, nor the action. Just the plot and the pacing.

See, this is why writing is so important. The cast was excellent, every actor put their A game, but they just had nothing to work with. Even the fight scenes played second fiddle to Stark's shannegans, which with the proper script would have been great, but simply fell flat due to uneven pacing. There was just such a high level of inconsistency and lack of overall direction. If anything, Iron Man tried to do TOO much, then realized it only had a set amount of time to play with and tried to wrap everything neatly in a bow.

Take ScarJo's character. Sure it was great to see such a high class hottie in some tight leather, but exactly how would Iron man have suffered had she not been included? Seriously, her ONLY relevant addition to the entire movie was stopping the hack on War Machine, which could have been achieved by that negative nancy robo butler ("I cannot hack the suit remotley, we need a babe in leather to fix this situation). This same concept applies to the entire shield involvement in the movie. Save it for the avengers imo, let Iron man be Iron man and keep the universes and movies separate.

Now I am excited for the Avengers as well, but if Iron Man 2 has shown us anything it's that you should keep comic book movie adaptations in their own micro bubble - Tie it together like with the bonus scene at the end of the first Iron Man, and the End of Iron Man 2. Thats fine! But don't think for a second that explaining how stark got to be part of SHIELD in Iron Man 3 Means you don't have to explain it in the Avengers Movie.

Dr. Dan Challis:
I'm not sure how any sane person could expect an Avengers movie to be anything other than a total disaster. In fact, I'd be willing to lay down money that it winds up being such a fiasco that it effectively sounds the death knell for comic book movies for a good decade. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Definitely agree with you there. There's a fine line between homage and fanservice, and fanservice sucks. I'll take Iron Man, but the Avengers were never very good to being with.

I was REALLY annoyed that it was after the credits, I saw it opening night and we didn't know that there was a scene after the credits. Oh sure it's just the movie makers wanting you to watch the credits but fuck them I paid to see the movie and watch what I wanted to watch don't force me to watch through some crap just because you want your name to be glanced at and ignored. Would it have hurt them terribly to put that scene in front of the credits, really?

EDIT: I was still half way convinced that the Scarlet Witch would be the third avenger, it seemed like a better fit.

pantsoffdanceoff:
Oh sure it's just the movie makers wanting you to watch the credits but fuck them I paid to see the movie and watch what I wanted to watch don't force me to watch through some crap just because you want your name to be glanced at and ignored. Would it have hurt them terribly to put that scene in front of the credits, really?

I don't think it's a scam to get you to watch the credits.

It's just that the after-the-credits teaser is the taint of the movie. It's where you put the crassly-marketed cliffhanger that's too much of a non sequitur to include in the actual movie.

-- Alex

I think the Thor magic thing could be handwaved quite easily through dialogue

Captain America: So he's actually a magical god?
Iron Man: (flippantly) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (quoting A. Clark), convergent evolution, alternate univer-
Thor (entering): If only it was that easy Mr Stark

That way you can accept either explanation that he's actually a Norse gods with magic powers or just an alien with advanced technology that resembles a myth.

I'm of the opinion that we're going to look back on Iron Man and see the appearance of more fantastical superheroes with actual powers as sort of the beginning of the end of everything good about these movies. See, the best stuff about the original Iron Man is the bits where different types of drama than typically seen in superhero movies (i.e. NOT the damsel in distress crap) is shown. Stark designing for his very life in a dank hole in a mountain? Sweet! Comedic banter between an egotistic hero and a bigger, cigar-smoking, money-loving narcissist? Awesome! A mech suit wrecking a bunch of lame army tanks of the sort Michael Bay wishes he could molest? Cool.

But now we've inserted fantastical super powers which aren't even remotely explainable, we've hinted at superhero team-ups with these more conventional supes and I'm sure more stereotypical villains are in the works as well. Pretty soon there'll be nothing to differentiate the Iron Man property from Fantastic 4.

Im not even a comic book reader but I knew about this.

Ive even seen the picture of the hammer, and the famous 4 fight off that doom fella... like I said Im not a comic book person - so I cant really comment on what was going on... but I know the reference at least ^^

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