Three Reasons for Robin

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Hm... Well, I never saw the first Batman franchise, so I have no opinion on this. But seeing this, it's hard to argue against Bob, mainly because he brings up a lot of really good points. So we shall see.

By the way, Bob, a little nitpicking here. It's spelled "Die Fliedermaus". I don't think you even spelled it in German in the article.

Dark Templar:
Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

Are you kidding? I fucking love Batman Beyond. It is a terrific show. I wish it was still on.

Billion Backs:
Those were all pretty convincing arguments...

Although I prefer my super heroes gritty, dark and edgy, and all that.

maninahat:
Reading this reminds me of how stupid the ending of The Dark Knight is. Not only would it have made much more sense for Batman to have blamed Two-Face's actions on the Joker, it would of hammered in the fact that the Joker succeeded 100% in demeaning someone to his own level.

In the current version, Gotham's symbol of justice has been compromised (the world thinks he is now a serial killer) for no adequate reason. It is the most significant plot hole (of many) in the movie, because it dictates how the sequel will turn out: It will be some tedious story in which the superhero has to prove to the world that he isn't a bad guy. Kind of boring, since we already know he isn't a bad guy. Plus the Spiderman films have already gone with that exact same plot in every movie.

Y-yyeah... All the super hero series are kind of predictable in the first place. Of COURSE you expect the titular hero to, you know, succeed, and usually survive along with it as well. Especially in most movies.

Examples: All superhero movies I can think of... The whole Rocky series... The whole Karate Kid series... And the list goes on.

Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing your point.

Now here is what I would do with a sequel to Dark Knight. Batman now has a crisis because everyone in Gotham thinks he's a serial killer. Without Batman as a symbol for justice and order, and Harvey Dent locking up the crooks, society gets hit by a new crime wave. Batman cannot get the people to rally behind him, and he finds himself unable to go out and fight crime as often because he keeps having to evade the police/the public. Batman realises he can't win people over just by doing good deeds, as the problem is all about image.

So to get around the problem, Batman creates a new, fresh superhero for people to have faith in. To ensure he doesn't end up being lumped in with the Batman as another despicable "masked menace", Batman makes this other guy the polar opposite in appearance and behaviour. Instead of being coated in black, fearsome and unapologetically violent, this new guy gets a colourful outfit, and actively appeals to the nostalgic, golden age of Gotham (US) popular culture. IN OTHER WORDS, Batman hires ROBIN to do his job and restore faith in super heroes.

Seems Nolan has the O'Donnell trauma too. Its a good thing. Robin was essentially there to make things easier for the bad guys, not so much in recent comic history, but whenever I see him I can't help but think "Damn you O'Donnell!"

Dark Templar:
Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

I liked Batman Beyond...
well... at least until the movie where they basically cloned the Joker. That was stretching things a bit.

As for the article...
well... Moviebob, as much as I hate to admit it, you have a point about including Robin.
The main problem I have with Robin is that he tends to make things TOO light.

Let's see here, what could they do to bring some youthful energy to the dark and gritty Dark Knight...

-Dick Grayson
-Tim Drake
-Barbara Gordon (have they even mentioned her in the Nolan films, and I mean her as Barbara Gordon, not just Batgirl?)
-Bat-Mite (if they wanted to be stupid and pander to kids, despite how Bat-Mite is pretty enjoyable, if a little annoying, in Brave and the Bold)
-Ace the Bat-Hound

Who they'd probably bring in to keep the Dark Knight, well, Dark:

-Jason Todd (second Robin, killed by Joker, generally unliked by Batman fans for jerkass attitude)
-Cassandra Cain (as Batgirl, do a google search)

Also, it's already a forgone conclusion that they're going to bring in The Riddler as the movie's antagonist, but my question is who's next? To me, the dark, grim and gritty feel of The Dark Knight screams primarily of three villains that would thrive in its environment: Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow and Bane. However, they'd really have to go into depth with Freeze and Bane's backstories and it wouldn't hurt to flesh out Scarecrow more into a full-fledged supervillain, especially since he's been pretty much shafted by the Batman movies (ignored by the Burton and Shumaker films, glanced over in Batman Begins and appeared for about five minuets in Dark Knight). To me, here's how you implement Freeze, Bane and Scarecrow properly into the Nolan Batman films.

Mr. Freeze: Keep the backstory (cryogenecist who freezes his wife until he can find a cure for her (currently) incurable ailment, gets shoved into chemicals by dickhead boss and goes on a revenge-fueled spree), make the cryo-suit and freeze gun a little more sleek and compact, maybe downplay the wife thing a little bit. Or to put it quicker, "go watch Batman The Animated Series episode "Heart of Ice" and take close notes.
Bane: Okay, you're gonna have to go into backstory detail for Bane if he's in the movies as the villain. I'm serious, Bane is a mess to do as a Batman movie villain. He was born to serve his father's prison sentence in Peņa Duro prison, he pretty much strong-arms his to the top of the prison's tough-guy list, is forced to become a test-subject for Venom, escapes Peņa Duro and goes after Batman because he'd been seeing demonic bats in his nightmares all his life and was convinced that Batman was the source and seeks to conquer it. Best-case scenario, you end up with a modified Knightfall, where Bane breaks Batman's back and (nearly) cripples him (I say "nearly" because in the comics he DID cripple Bruce Wayne, but in the movies that'd probably not be a smart move), worst case scenario you end up with a generic super-strong mook (see "Batman and Robin"). Also, Bane is a tactical mastermind and not just a druggie version of the Hulk. He's polylingual (speaks multiple languages, among which are Spanish, French, German, Russian, Mandarin, English, Urdu, Farsi, and Latin), a math genius (despite having no actual mathematical education, he read countless encyclopedias and books in prison and is knowledgeable in Mathematics, various Sciences, History, Geography, Medicine, and most likely more) and possesses Olympic-level strength and reflexes, and that's just when he's not on Venom. On the stuff, he can lift up to 35 tons (about 35 Ford Mustangs, to put that in perspective), and he's still all the stuff I mentioned before. There's a reason this guy is the only person who's claimed to have "broken the bat" and it's because he's just awesome. And as one final thing, he has to have a spanish accent. Bane IS latin american, like it or not. Sure, not an easy thing to find the right image for the guy, but just use CGI for when he uses the Venom.
Scarecrow: We've already seen Scarecrow as an established bad guy in the Dark Knight, just don't make him a one-note deal. Scarecrow's not just the fear gas, he's a crazy psychologist who has a fascination with fear to the point that the only way he can actually feel fear is to fight Batman (or wear a Yellow Lantern ring, but that's another crisis crossover). Look, the point is Scarecrow has been majorly downgraded from one of Batman's deadliest foes to quasi-drug dealer. Sure, he had that one moment in Batman Begins, but if a taser is what it takes to take him out and NOT Batman, something is wrong. Bottom line, promote Scarecrow to important villain.

Totally agreed with you during your review of The Losers, Bob, and totally agree with you now. Yes, Robin in the 90's movies was awful...just awful. But with a decent writer and Nolan's willingness to take a chance on the character, he could be exactly what the series (and Batman as a character) needs to get out of TDK's massive shadow.

Dark Templar:
Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

I loved that series.

OT: I agreed with the article as well, though I wonder who would play Robin, which comic book version would he be (or would he be an entirely new one?), and things like that. I do think it would be nice to spice up the fight scenes with big tough batman and quick acrobatic Robin as well as Batman redeeming himself and becoming a father figure.

I like the idea of having Batgirl as the sidekick and Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy. The Nolan movies seriously need more female characters. The Batman mythos has had plenty of great female characters, so it's kind of odd that Nolan's movies have been such a sausagefest. On that note: how about Renee Montoya? Also (and this will probably never happen) how about Batwoman?

This change in the direction of super hero movies to light and fun makes me want a Booster Gold movie. Just sayin.

Soviet Heavy:

Dark Templar:
Anyone besides me liked Batman Beyond? My friends (Like me) are into DC comics and batman but I'm the only one who liked this incarnation of the franchise.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree 100% Robin should show up in the next movie.

Are you kidding? I fucking love Batman Beyond. It is a terrific show. I wish it was still on.

Me too, I just watched the movie Return of the Joker last night again.

The thing with the Harley idea, is that she only really works well as a villain with Mr Jay involved. Anyone else tries to fill that clowns shoes and it'll flop considering how much people loved Ledgers performance.

smartyknickers:
I like the idea of having Batgirl as the sidekick and Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy. The Nolan movies seriously need more female characters. The Batman mythos has had plenty of great female characters, so it's kind of odd that Nolan's movies have been such a sausagefest. On that note: how about Renee Montoya? Also (and this will probably never happen) how about Batwoman?

This change in the direction of super hero movies to light and fun makes me want a Booster Gold movie. Just sayin.

As long as Ted is in it!

Dok Zombie:

AAAAND, combine this with my Harley Quinn idea (see above) and you have a great theme of hero-worship going awry and the impressionable effect that characters like Batman and Joker have on young people.

Screw Nolan, me and you will make this movie!

God, yes, we need Harley Quinn in the next Batman movie. That is the only way I can see throwing robin into the mix working. I mean holy flying-ass-crackers I can only imagine how Nolan would portray her in his world of Batman, granted she wouldn't be hanging with the Joker( god rest his drug filled soul) but still it would make for an amazing story and still be playing off the joker from the last movie. Just make Harley his agent of chaos now that he's in Arkham.

I could kiss you...I really could...but you're an interweb person...so I won't.

dragontiers:

RestamSalucard:
Riddle me this, does a Doctor have what it takes to take on the Bat?

Don't get my hopes up like that. I had to go in IMDB to see if that was real, and if it is they have no info on it. I don't know if he could do a good Riddler, but I would have to watch it anyways.

No, it's just a mock-up done by JoshWMc.
http://io9.com/5040178/meet-the-stars-of-the-next-knight

Not to get all "fan-fiction" about it, but... one argument in favor of Harley Quinn is that it's a way of doing Joker as an offscreen presence - i.e. she's the "outside agent" and Joker is an unseen voice in a cell, or whatever. That said... I have a hard time believing that the Nolan brothers have any more interest in a character who's name is a pun than they do in any of the other "odd" stuff in the franchise. (OLD RUMOR: Supposedly at one point in the development of "Dark Knight," the shady Asian mob-bankers were going to be British arms-dealers, and their boss - that guy Batman essentially kidnaps - was going to be Oswald Cobblepot; who's underworld nickname would, of course, be The Penguin.)

Here's a thought: What if Robin got his OWN movie? As in, the whole origin-story as told from Robin's p.o.v. with a lighter tone/style than the "main" Batman movies, and whoever is playing Batman/Bruce Wayne at the time is there as a "supporting" player - i.e. ACT I: Dick Grayson, boy acrobat, parents die. ACT II: "I'm adopted by aloof rich weirdo, going out looking for revenge on my own as Robin." ACT III: "Turns out rich weirdo is BATMAN, he says if I won't stop this vigilante stuff he'll have to at least show me how to do it right." THE END. If it works? Super, put the kid in the next movie. Doesn't work? Ah well, it was just a spin-off.

No. Robin cannot enter this franchise. Complain all you want, he DOESN"T FIT! Chris Nolan's Batman is dark, gritty, and real. Essentially he is taking the Batman universe out of the DC universe taking that retarded Batman/Superman BFF crap and chucking it out the window along with it and making the comic book superhero seemingly real.

Batman is amazingly remade in Batman Begins and the concept of the Caped Crusader (billionaire playboy who dresses up in a Batsuit at night and beats criminals to a bloody pulp) is made really believable. Even the character of Ra's Al Ghul, the Scarecrow, The Joker, and Two-Face seem like they could actually exist in this world today. Unfortunately that makes the possibility of some of the classic unrealistic villians of years past (Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Bane [ironically the villians of "Batman & Robin" *shiver*] etc.) unable to be rendered, but we can forgive Nolan for that. It frees up the oppurtunity to portray some of the infinitly better villians of the series like The Riddler, Harley Quinn, and Hush. Oh, and I almost forgot to mention Batman's on-again-off-again love interest/master jewel thief villian Catwoman who we can hopefully resurrect from the monstrosity that was Halle Barry's interpretation of the VILLIAN, i stress that again, VILLIAN. Catwoman was never a superhero, she was always a VILLIAN. Just like the Silver Surfer in the second craptacular mess that was the Fantastic Four sequel where the shiny surfing superhero was recast as an world destroying villian, Catwoman needs to be fixed.

Alfred has been shifted from the role of Bruce Wayne's butler to that of his partner-in-vigilantism, essentially a precursor to Oracle. By the way, has anypne else but me noticed that Barbara Gordon is lovingly absent from the Chris Nolanverse Batman films? Yea she may have been referenced in TDK, but she isn't actually shown. The only two Gordons we really care about are Gary Oldman's spectacular Commisioner Gordon and his son who is growing very close to Batman as he slinks in the shadows of Gotham City.

Where was I going with this...oh yeah, Robin. Think about Chris Nolan's Batman, played fantastically by Christian Bale. He became the Batman entirely to fulfill his inner desire to help the city of Gotham escape from the stranglehold criminals had it in. He doesn't need help past Alfred, his surrogate father figure, and he goes about his business in a Lone Wolf kind of way. The first scene on TDK portrays this to a certain extent when Batman imitators tried to take out the Scarecrow and his drug running operation. Granted Bruce's main gripe with the imitators was that they were using guns and actually attempting to KILL people, he still could have advised the imitators in the ways of crimefighting if he WANTED their help.

I maintain my belief from before. Unless they can find a way of introducing a Robin character into the next Batman movie, giving him enough screentime so he becomes close to both us as the viewers and Bruce as a person, and then killing him off to further fuel Batman's dark lone wolf escapades as the Dark Knight of Gotham City (Much like the 2nd Robin was in the comics BY FAN SUBMISSION I MIGHT ADD! Yeah, DC comic literally gave the readers the choice of wether or not to kill off Robin and the chosen option ended up with Robin murdered by the Joker. Proof that the fans know what they want.), i am 100% completely, totally, irrevocably, and undeniably against Robin showing up in the Nolanverse Batman films. Chris O'Donnell, i must partly blame you for ruining the character even further the way you did.

And i swear to god if i even hear the name of the city Metropolis referenced in the new Batman film I will flip. Batman and Superman have no place in the same universe.

That's really sad... I WOULD like to see Robin in the next Batman movie, since, well, all the Batman movies Robin HAS been in were not so well-received by Batman fans, ESPECIALLY the one Batman movie with Robin's name in the title.

But now that superhero films are actually being done well, maybe it's time to give Robin another chance.

I think robin would work well in the current dark and gritty batman movies but not in any of the forms he has been in. If i was going to write robin into the current movies I'd do it somthing like this.

Batmans at the end of TDK took the fall as well all know, hes been branded guilty of the murders of several police and so on. Surely in there is one copper old enough to have an early to mid 20's son. this son would have been taught to fight by his father maybe, he may have gymnastics or martal arts training hence is acrobatic abilities and fighting style (better writers than me can work that out).

This Boy will blame batman for the death of his father and attempt to kill him, he wont team up with the next movies main villan but will possably use batmans fights with this villan as an oppertunity to attempt to kill him.

Eventuly thru the course of the movie batmans innocence will be revealed and the boy will don the (hopefuly upgraded) robin suit and take his place by batmans side while keeping the dark and gritty feel, it also gives another story platform to work from to aid in batmans redemption from the end of TDK.

Hmm - I am very intrigued. I went from thinking how impossible an idea it would be to being only mildly skeptic. I still find it hard to imagine Robin fitting in the super realistic movie universe though - Batman can survive because he's spent years training/is super strong etc etc etc. Could "this guy's an acrobat" really be convincing enough to allow Robin to dodge bullets for an entire movie?

Still, interesting stuff, especially since I'm working on a final paper for a graphic storytelling class (I know, it's awesome) and have been reading through Batman stuff all through his history.

"#1. He Belongs There" - I totally agree Robin belongs with Batman BUT only when it comes to comic books. Why ? Because in the 70 years of Batman comics you have time to explain the intricate dynamics between a grown adult and a child sidekick. And don't forget how much that relationship evolved and changed over the years ! In a 2 hours movie there isn't enough time to explain why Batman puts a child/teen orphan in the line of fire of masked supervillains, even with a nice montage Mask of Zorro stile. If they put Robin in the movie he will only end up making Batman look like a). A insane person with no reason and judgement or b). A pedophile

"#2. He Makes Sense" "where do you expect the story of the current Batman movies to go after Dark Knight? Hell, where can it go?" - eh Bob are you on drugs again ? Its only been two movie and you don't see any other creative story to put Batman in ? How about one of the hundreds of arcs that have taken place in 70 years of comic book history. Or better yet make a new fresh arc that would go great with a movie. Its freaking Batman the possibilities are endless.

"#3. Dark is Dead" God i hope not. Every time they fiddled with the dark serious persona of Batman it all went HORRIBLY wrong ... see silver age, the series that ran after TAS, brave and the bold, Batman and freaking robin for humanity sake etc.

Bob, you tried to bring more arguments to the "robin in Batman 3 !" statement made in the previous review but they don't hold up imo, when it comes to the current Batman movies.
And mate, those two pictures you posted in the article of Batman and Robin ... only make my case rock solid.

MovieBob

Robin in a batman movie (or even his own movie) wouldn't be bad. However your reasoning at the start of Losers is bad.

The reason Hit Girl is a phenomenom is she breaks conventual norms. Girl, voilence, cursing, tom-boyish, etc.

If the Boy Wonder were to try to the same thing, it wouldn;t be the Boy Wonder. Robin is the Hope and Conscience of the Bat Stories. To do otherwise would be to leave Robin behind and move into Nightwing territory.

Which on reflection wouldn't be a bad idea.

Robin? Dear god no.

Throughout his existence, Batman has always been struggling between two poles. On the one hand, the dark gritty side of a man hell bent on avenging his parents. On the other, a man running around with his underpants on the outside trading terrible puns with his opponents. Strangely enough, almost every time they add Robin the balance is tipped into the latter territory. I know, I know, there have been some comics where Robin pulls off the whole dark-and-edgy routine, but from the outset it's very difficult to be dark and edgy when you're prancing around in green and yellow leotards. Not that there is anything wrong with the camp 60s Batman, it's astoundingly hilarious, and there is absolutely no reason why we can't have both. But I really don't see how they can add Robin without the series descending into the farce that it did with Batman Forever. I swear, Chris O'Donnell is a talent black hole: not content with screwing up the Batman franchise he's now befouling NCIS.

I dunno bob, while robin has certainly been done properly in some mediums of batman, live action, mainstream productions is where he fails the hardest. I think its important to remember that the teen sidekick was introduced as raw marketing. While it might make sense for the studio and backers, does it really make sense from good storytelling standpoints? Yeah they could do it right, so much easier to do it wrong. Part of what makes the nolan series batman is that it's kept its feet about as in touch with the ground as a batman story can be told in. Killer Croc isnt hanging about, for example. The batmobile is some military redux vehicle, and the batsuit can deflect glancing shots, so we don't have to swallow, he dodges all the bullets hook line and sinker. But more to the point the batsuit is black, which makes for nice camoflauge, why you would go fight armed muggers, with nothing but your costume and karate to aid you raises the eyebrow about as far as this series is goign to allow, making said costume bright and colorful just makes it stop fitting.

Putting robin in will require a delicate touch and special attention to detail. If his origin comes off as forced or lame it almost won't matter what they do with the rest of the movie. I'll be constantly hearing in my head "I'm batman.... AND HERES MY FAITHFUL YOUNG WARD Uh hyuk"

Dok Zombie:

Rhino of Steel:
Since Nolan is so opposed to the idea of Robin this all sadly seems beside the point as he won't be in the next one anyway. They could always go with the other sidekick, Batgirl. That way they can keep the dark, gritty feel if they also give us her change to Oracle. Actually, if they did that it may well trump the level of darkness in TDK.

Failing that, just give us Ace.

Wait... why has nobody suggested this yet? Batgirl has all the qualities of Robin that people have listed, with the added interest of Oracle.

THIS MAN TALKS SENSE!

It's perfect, we've already seen the Gordon kids in TDK, the next film could be set years later, with Batman as an established figure in Gotham city, and he takes her under his wing, only for her to be paralysed in the line of duty, leaving Batman feeling guilty for it.

*Shameless self-plug in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...*

AAAAND, combine this with my Harley Quinn idea (see above) and you have a great theme of hero-worship going awry and the impressionable effect that characters like Batman and Joker have on young people.

Screw Nolan, me and you will make this movie!

I like these guys ideas better, though die hard batman fans might cry foul at chronology if batgirl makes it in before robin. Throw in the harley thing and you have two strong ties to TDK to make a solid connected movie out of.

All that said I'd much rather see a well done batman beyond live action. Then again the animated is really good, maybe I don't want that.

But what I'd love to know above all else. Who does Bob think should play robin if he in fact gets his origin story next movie? If you ask me to name off appealing young teen male actors(aaaaaakwaaard) I draw a blank.

MailOrderClone:

Tim Drake, the third Robin, would probably make for an ideal choice. He's a bright young man who actually does really enjoy being a superhero, although he doesn't see himself doing it forever. His father was a small-time crook who ended up getting killed, and he, too, found himself adopted into the Wayne family and wearing the red and black Robin costume.

Damien Wayne is another idea, and a character that could actually be worked into the plot threads left over from Batman Begins. See, his story is that he is Bruce Wayne's son, having spent his early life with his mother, Talia Al-Ghul, learning to be an assassin and a certifiable master of whoop-ass. That could dovetail right into the ninja mountain deal from Begins.

.

Personally, I find Damian a repulsive character stuck in one mode- Brat.
They haven't made much of an effort to write him well or have him develop in the comics, so i can't see how such an unlikeable, unrelatable, and frankly two dimensional character would fit in Nolan's Gotham. Nor is there any reference to Talia Al Ghul made in Batman Begins. It would be literally pulling him out of thin air.

Now, Tim Drake. He might actually work.. a son trying to get out of his small time crook father's shadow? might work rather well actually... if done correctly.

Although I do agree and I do think that "Here comes Robin" is a great start for the third movie, I don't agree that The Dark Knight needed robin or felt wrong without him. The fact that batman was alone against The Joker, couldn't get help from anyone and his only connection to humanity was going to marry someone else made the movie better. Having Robin there wouldn't make sense. Batman needs to hit the bottom before he can be lifted up by Robin.

Still, great post.

Your not alone mate, I'd love to see the boy wonder make his dynamic debut with this generation of Batman,

hyperdrachen:
But what I'd love to know above all else. Who does Bob think should play robin if he in fact gets his origin story next movie? If you ask me to name off appealing young teen male actors(aaaaaakwaaard) I draw a blank.

Preferably, someone age-appropriate who's essentially an unknown - because GOD FORBID it be someone who's done a Nick Jr or Disney show at some point in the past and we'd NEVER hear the end of the fanboy bellyaching ;) - who can handle himself in action scenes. It's a fine line to walk between "too old to be an adoptee" and "too young to be plausible."

That said, this kid playing Aang in the "Last Airbender" movie seems to have a good presence, and demonstrably knows his way with a quarterstaff, so that'd be one place to start.

I think Robin fits. But only in a certain way.

The Nolan Batman is a bad ass. And soul-less. In a way that true Batman fans want him. And a "sidekick" as the the old skool says just doesn't fit anymore.

But he might if it's done properly... A drinking partner, someone else who truly thinks they've lost it all because of criminals and is willing to risk it all and might go one step further than Batman.. in a dark way..

That's what the next film should be. Batman the outcast, he finds someone as Bruce to confide in other than Alfred and that guy becomes Robin. Forget the acrobat background.. it does need to get darker..

But the new Robin can't be handled and he's a match for Batman's talents... cue film...

EDIT: Nightwing. BAD-ASS NIGHTWING

TheEnglishman:

My problem lies with the simple thing about Robin. He's Robin! He dresses up in green tights with a red unitard and his mask consists of a piece of fabric on his face. He looks ridiculous. More than that the premise is that an orphan is recruited by Batman to fight crime in the afformentioned outfit. It sounds silly when you consider Batman is on a lone mission, doesn't want anyone to get hurt (As Kevin Conroy said in Gotham Knight "I'm willing to put my life on the line, but only my life.") and wouldn't want a kid working with him, before you even think what the Commisioner would think of the situation.

You know that one premise of the Robin outfit is that his mother made it for him just before she died as their costume for acrobatics, that Batman just takes him into his house to take care of him and he stumbles in on the Batcave and thats when Bruce decides to train him to be his side kick.

If they do the Robin origin right I see absolutely no reason why they can't have Robin start in the next movie but not make him a huge thing until the 4th movie maybe.

I hate Robin, I don't know why I've just always hated him.

I'm hoping Robin is in the 3rd movie as well. At the same time, I hope to god he isn't.

Why? I started off liking how Nolan handled the series. Batman Begins is up there near Keaton's first outing as the dark knight. The only thing I really, truly despised was the choice in making Bale's (and Nolan's fault most likely) voice as Batman some gravelly, rougher-than-hell piece of crap. Was horrible listening to him talk every single time he slipped on the cowl.

Then Dark Knight hit. And my god was that horrible... overdrawn, dull, and the Heath Joker was a disgrace to the name. He made a damn fine gangster, but as the Joker? His only decent, shining moment was the hospital scene. And at the same time, Batman became rather stiff, since despite his suit being perfect to fight off a ninja army, it was too stiff for him to move his head even an inch, much less the rest of him. Sudden shift, unexplained, that led to a shift in his suit. It's the Batman movie syndrome all over, next thing we know the suit will have not nipples, but nipple plates.

Which is why I don't want Robin in the 3rd. If he was in the first or second? Hey might of been alright. But I am not liking the direction. As several said so eloquently, the only way Batman could get darker was if he sat in a bath tub, slit his wrists, and cried. Not some manly sob, no I'm talking shrill, high-pitched shrieks of sorrow, like a baby, but much more gravelly. I also doubt he could make it lighter in tone without killing some element, which means Robin won't be the best fit.

I would like to see this happen. I think it would be a great character defining move forward for the Bat. To recognize that life goes on, and that he himself can't be stuck in the past, via needing to be that Alfred-esque figure to a young ward. We'll see. We'll see.

Actually...The one Robin that would undoubtedly fit right down to the Lone Wolf and cubesque interplay ISN'T Dick Grayson or Tim Drake.

Yep, you guessed right. He starts off as an earnest punk ripping off the batmobile's stuff. And gets taken in by Wayne and sticks as a gesture. He's too exposed to the worst to be normal, but is he too damaged to be by Bruce's side, afterall he was ALREADY in the line of fire and fate has put them together.

That's right Jason Todd, Robin II, fits more into Nolanverse with his origin, attitude (even with the resentment/anguish against TwoFace you can even switch it to Harvey Dent's already existent foibles or Crane's psychotropics crap, in short Batman's Freekafying or Templarness set off his orphaning. Time to make the cub a wolf and make amends) and eventual fate. You still get the transition into fatherhood and all those things good about Robin but it fits the more "acceptable" and easily integrated story of the hard man who's lightened and made more heroic by having him lug around and provide for cute young thing. Contrary to what some say that does fit with the dark or serious movies. They are there all the time just making sure to act as moppets and woobies not actual characters. The Daigo route is established but not cliche-level popular so it feels like a subversion of expectations in a good way while being worn enough path you can't screw up.

Recall that Big Daddy comes off as MUCH MORE MONSTROUS for including HitGirl in his crusade and training her like he does. You don't want Bruce to cross that line. THAT'S the real line that makes him a villain. Most couldn't care less if he's murdering people. Fanboys debate Burton Batman's massacre and Nolan's abandonment of Ghul or killing Dent. Everyone else sees a right and proper take out, like every action movie EVER. If you want a HitGirl it will have to be Todd or Barbara, they fit the Daigo mold.

Maybe Dick *if* there's follow up and refinement on some of the ideas behind Batman Forever's intepretation (not a moppet, gypsy youth, never normal, skilled, etc). Think less Burt Ward and more...Aang of Avatar the Last Airbender actually. A whole real child with decidedly different and nuanced characterization that gets overlooked in clamoring for Zuko's arc (and some of the softballing of the finale). It would require a much more thorough reimagining. I mean we're talking internal surgery deeper than the heart and comprehensive throughout the plumbing; picking the perfect talent with the physical ability and acting chops to pull it off. Tall order.

Thanks, man.

MovieBob:
Not to get all "fan-fiction" about it, but... one argument in favor of Harley Quinn is that it's a way of doing Joker as an offscreen presence - i.e. she's the "outside agent" and Joker is an unseen voice in a cell, or whatever.
That said... I have a hard time believing that the Nolan brothers have any more interest in a character who's name is a pun than they do in any of the other "odd" stuff in the franchise.

Nope. Artistic references are perfect in movies of this caliber. Seriously how many crime movies have references to shit well above their meaning. And at this point if NOT for the DC character Harlequins would being really fancy estori...obscure stuff. Plus she's basically a typical gangster moll/girl. Archetypically she fits and oddly enough grounds Mr. J. She easily ties into hellalotta actual phenomenons (the wives of Manson, actual mobwives or girls 'in the game') There is an actual void of strong women's roles in the Dark Knights with its Crime Thriller + Superhero style that includes Harley in any number of interpretations including straight out of BTAS. Its already established the Joker has an undertow to crazy and can crack tough nuts. Those with serial killer fascination are ripe for the picking.

(OLD RUMOR: Supposedly at one point in the development of "Dark Knight," the shady Asian mob-bankers were going to be British arms-dealers, and their boss - that guy Batman essentially kidnaps - was going to be Oswald Cobblepot; who's underworld nickname would, of course, be The Penguin.)

Yeah I heard people screaming Oswald would be next or the Riddler (new money+crime family and specially picked foe for the Bat). Oddly enough Poison Ivy is all set up to walk in. Now Plantkinetic, hells no (dislike that idea period, it cheapens the character when we havethese gadgets and signs of expertise but sexy chick becomes magical witch). but original and even BTAS femme fatale who really hates men. I mean the modern day Lucretia? Trust me. I'm sure Nolan could put her, Talia, AND Selina in without remotely crowding the movie of a sides to origin stories or stuffing it. They fit so well they aren't remarkable.

Here's a thought: What if Robin got his OWN movie? As in, the whole origin-story as told from Robin's p.o.v. with a lighter tone/style than the "main" Batman movies, and whoever is playing Batman/Bruce Wayne at the time is there as a "supporting" player - i.e. ACT I: Dick Grayson, boy acrobat, parents die. ACT II: "I'm adopted by aloof rich weirdo, going out looking for revenge on my own as Robin." ACT III: "Turns out rich weirdo is BATMAN, he says if I won't stop this vigilante stuff he'll have to at least show me how to do it right." THE END. If it works? Super, put the kid in the next movie. Doesn't work? Ah well, it was just a spin-off.

...
Damn that's a GREAT IDEA. but as timing works out I'm certain it'll have to wait until the alongside or after the third movie. Still yeah it works. I still stand by you're better of with Jason Daigo Igami Todd than Dick Grayson or Tim "90s, good-nay most superb 90s but still too specific as to timeless" Drake aside from stealing his overall design and presentation (ala Teen Titan's pasting all of Drakes imagery and style onto Dick Grayson). I don't want them to do that I like each robin having thier distinct styles. Still. Yeah. It... it works as bridging idea even for when Nolan leaves in the third movie which will be a nice number and style to nip an tie off the Dark Knight and move ever so slightly more to Caped Crusader or The Greatest Detective or Finest in the World. I mean we have to take care of Fugitive Batman and tons of other stuff before making Bruce a daddy.

BTW I was a bit putoff, but I want to thank you now for your comprehensive and considerate reply to the questions I posted on "The Problem with HitGirl" thread (no I didn't post to the Losers it seemed inappropriate.)

*sigh* Okay. As one of the bitchers for, say, The casting of Avatar. The reason is how the kids are cast and what the hell they do. You've watched or worse been forced to watch some of the crap that is live-action kids-aimed entertainment which is as broadly drawn and loosely plotted as any cartoon and just as nakedly merchandise driven. Then they want to be sexpots and "taken seriously" and are shocked after years, YEARS, of regurgitated marketing brain tenderizer people don't believe them. Now Disney.. .they tend to build some fundamental talent but it takes a hellalotta time. Most of the "acting" is for the kids being cute and the transition is mentally hard to accept after years of exposure (happens to TV and overpromoted stars too) plus the fact they aren't as talented as what they are tackling.

Noah Ranger...oddly enough yes. Sure he was a bit miscast as Aang (ignore me on this to avoid argument) but with some experience could pull off a Robin in a year or so.

I actually think Shia LeBouf is okay. Admittedly I liked Transformers 1 (2 had...too much flanderization and comic mythos. Seriously I HATE ENERGON. We finally had a Hard-as-nBSG setup and they make a mystical energy why WHY do this?!) and Eagle Eye. I haven't tried Disturbia or his other stuff but I buy him as an okay actor. But that's not the rule of the Nick and Disney graduates. They are merchandise assistants who aged out of their brand as a given. Not necessarily talented (or untalented). But with VA stunt casting and other woes fanboys get leery of getting The Smallville and other treatment where the merger of a slightly more accepted genre and goals with your own story results in the soul of it being crushed to feed marketing machine.

MovieBob:

hyperdrachen:
But what I'd love to know above all else. Who does Bob think should play robin if he in fact gets his origin story next movie? If you ask me to name off appealing young teen male actors(aaaaaakwaaard) I draw a blank.

Preferably, someone age-appropriate who's essentially an unknown - because GOD FORBID it be someone who's done a Nick Jr or Disney show at some point in the past and we'd NEVER hear the end of the fanboy bellyaching ;) - who can handle himself in action scenes. It's a fine line to walk between "too old to be an adoptee" and "too young to be plausible."

That said, this kid playing Aang in the "Last Airbender" movie seems to have a good presence, and demonstrably knows his way with a quarterstaff, so that'd be one place to start.

BTW I seriously mean the cartoon. They do happygolucky while also badass right. The movie... okay its JUST the promos and Trailers ALWAYS Lie and just because Shymalan hasn't done family film in a while... I'm just saying movie!Aang is widely panned as too damned dour for his own good.

I'm going to have to say I think Moviebob makes a solid arguement. It's understandable why some wouldn't like it, but all I have to say is if Nolan can make it work in some kind of way, then make it work.

Also, I too loved Batman Beyond. I hated it when the show was canceled, but I was at least glad when the Justice League cartoons on Cartoon Network did go back into the Batman Beyond universe a couple of times for fun's sake and to tie up loose ends.

As for a villian I'd like to see in the next Batman film, probably Hush. Catwoman would most likely be good as a love interest, though Talia could fit in if done correctly. In fact, I'm pretty much fine with any Batman villian, as long as they don't do something to ruin them like how "Batman and Robin" screwed up Bane.

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