View from the Road: What Do WoW and Twilight Have in Common?

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT
 

Well, you are right. One interpretation or spin on whatever fantasy monster or whatever isn't more right than the other. In that sense, yeah, the Vampires from Twilight are true vampires. However, they're nevertheless still a stupid take on the vampire. See this:

Just because the execution is flawed doesn't mean that the idea of a vegetarian vampire who glitters like Lady Gaga when exposed to sunlight couldn't be interesting if done correctly.

I find unlikely. I mean, I don't mind the vegetarian part. If you want to have vampires as good guys they need to have some sort of alternative food input. As long as they're still SUPPOSED to drink blood, they're still vampires (though this part is quite critical). I don't mind that sunlight don't hurt them, but still effect them, either. I rather like the spin that they have to keep out of the sunlight, or they blow their cover.

But why did they have to glitter?! It's not that it's too "original", it's that it's non-sentical and unfitting the general "image" of the vampire. Dark, moody creatures that... glitter? I suspect that the author simply ran out of superlatives and ways to describe Edward as the most beautiful creature ever, so she made him glitter in sunlight as well. "He's sooo prettyyyyyy..."

To me, Worgen are civilised werewolves, like the ones of Pratchett's world. There's feral werewolves, who just live for the violence, then there's ones who understand the benefits of both sides of the coin.

I can't think of examples, but I'm sure there's feral vampires out there somewhere too (in fiction I mean), who follow some of the vampire mythos, but just attack for food, and don't have the style or lust for power, just bestial hunger.

He's right about dwarves tho, what is it that makes them all Scottish, beards, ginger, alcoholic? I can't see any reasons to stereotype them as from Scotland at all! *hides*

Pratchett plays with the dwarf idea with Cheery, a female dwarf who comes to the city and realises that you don't need to wear only chainmail, and that some of the taller..female people had knees, that you could see.

As for trolls, I'm torn between the rock golem style of Discworld and the Jamaican funk soul brothers of WOW.

In short, tho, I agree with the majority that it is more 'anti wow' and 'anti twilight', than messing with some mythical ideal of what a legend should be.

Chipperz:
Also, Funk, dude, roll a Worgen Death Knight. Nothing says awesome like a Vampire Werewolf Black Knight Necromancer.

I'd also take Engineering, because then you have a legit reason to put Cyborg into the mix, too...

Too totally awesome!

Ah, the answer to this question is relatively easy.

While orcs, dwarves or trolls are mostly a product of fantasy writing only inspired by long forgotten pagan/ancient belives, both werewolves and vampires were rather persistant in the cultural history of mankind.

Trolls and fairies died almost fully once world 'accepted' the 'one' religion, they remained in the realm of myth and old legends, however vampires and werewolves constantly boggled the minds of simple mortals till very recent. Moslty because of several human diseases that very likely upkept the myths and shaped them into the canon image we have these days. We even used the vampire image for historical characters like Lady Batory who supposedly bathed in blood of virgins, or Vlad the Impaler with his curelty.
Many of the belives regarding the two cursed beings were also tightly tied to the human percpetion of night time.

While all the older fantastic creatures vanished under the new culture, vampires and werewolves managed to prevail and their new, more friendly and less dangerous image presented not only in Twilight but alsos ome other, minor, less opular works of fiction just dont seem to match the cultural imprint.

This is part of the reason why I adore the Dresden Files books - Butcher puts a spin on some of the classic fantasy archetypes while still keeping them recognizable. Well...that and the books are brilliantly well-written!

I only opened 3 more tabs once i got on tvtropes.
I think i'm doing better.
Also I found a quote from yahtzee at the beginning of the "RealLife" article.

The funny thing is that all the "those aren't real werewolves" stuff I have only heard from twilight fans who think Stephenie Meyer's "werewolves"(shapeshifters) are the original werewolf. As for the female worgen I think they look a little doggish, but then those pics were without hair.

Also my worgen is going to be a warrior, because what's more badass than a werewolf in plate dual wielding two two-handers ?(nothing that's what)

Hammith:

John Funk:
No, they suck because they're shallow characters in poorly written books - whether or not they're "real" vampires has nothing to do with it.

I think I love you Funk. I hate all the harping on about how they aren't really vampires, when people should really be ranting and raving on just how bad the books are.

I wrote better stories when I was nine and knew nothing of grammar or narrative structure.

I completely agree.

What a vampire is can differ according to ones interpretation. If you want to trace the roots of vampires, they're just zombies from England who like drinking blood. Then of course the whole Romanian spin came about and all of a sudden they were just extremely pale humans. The latter view seems to have stood the test of time rather than the former, as per what a vampire is. Who says Stephanie Meyer can't put her own spin of what a vampire is.
That being said, the books were written horribly and the corresponding films directed equally as horribly. I've decided to just ignore them all together, seeing as nothing i or anyone else says will impede it's popularity.

Being a person who will defend Vampires and Werewolves made properly, i. e. NOT like Twilight, I can say this.

There is really no difference between Vampires and Werewolves and Elves, Orcs, Trolls etc...
Plenty of Tolkien fans who complained about the greenskinned warhammer orcs way back in the day, Same with Darksuns hairless Dwarves.

If someone takes an elf and remakes the core tenents of what we consider elfish, then yeah, ppl are going to complain.
That doesnt mean u are not allowed to evolve the concept.

But thats just the thing, Vampires and Werewolves have been evolved, a lot, and very well done.
But it seems like many of these new creations are completly unaware of previous evolutions of these types, that where hands down better then what THEY create, and THAT is inexusable.

To give an example with Vampires: Vampire, the Masquerade.
In my opinion the BEST evolution of Vampires in popular culture.
Clans, long life, drinking blood, and vulnerability to sunlight (with only a few exceptions), and a very well crafted world and creation myth.

So in my opinion, anyone else making a Vampire story needs to be at least AWARE of the World of Darkness Vampires before creating their own.

Thats an obligation, its called doing ur homework.

So maybe the Twilight Vampires all have 10 points of Fortitude, making them even more ridiculous.

The_root_of_all_evil:

Trying to find new spins on old concepts shouldn't be (and isn't) necessary, but it shouldn't be condemned, either

I think it's perfectly acceptable to condemn concepts that don't make sense in their own concept.

Twilight "vampires" fail because if they did exist, they'd break major laws of physics, chemistry, biology, anthropology and many other natural laws. And if you disregard those laws, without providing suitable laws to sustain them, they fail under their own laws.

Teleporters, Time Travel and numerous other "soft" sciences work because they provide a pseudo-scientific basis for their existence. If you're actually theorising a massive density, invulnerable creature that survives purely on an organic soup created by an inferior life-form; and has a biological component that itself acts intelligently, then there's an awful lot of laws you have to re-write to accommodate it. If you then want to add in a hyperactive shapeshifter than draws physical matter from nowhere, survives on the same soup, and is at constant war with a far superior enemy, which can re-create itself purely by swapping soup with another inferior life-form, then the basic laws of causality collapse into an author wishlist.

Fireballs may not exist; but thermodynamics, conservation of energy/momentum etc. that allow humanity to survive have to take account of this.

"Normal" vampires are creatures cursed by a Higher power to act like blood junkies, resembling the effects of known diseases (Porphyria/Rabies), known drug effects (PCP, Heroin) and base human fears (Xenophobia, Nictophobia, Sexual Predatory behaviour).

If Worgen have Crinos forms that draw power from Elder Gods, then I've no problem with them. If they have normal platemail that shifts with them, then there's something that needs looking at.

Smart response, this is something that have to keep in mind when it comes to writing my own stuff.

John Funk:
John Funk can't decide what class to make his Worgen.

Rogue.

If not for any reason, but to balance the fact I am not rolling a Goblin Rogue.

My stance on twilight isn't exactly based on my opinion of twilight itself; I just hate the massively polarising effect it's had on people. There's a large "I love twilight in all of its sparkly goodness, and will campaign loudly for its recognition as a literary classic/one of the greatest films of all time/Robert Pattinson to marry me" camp, and there's a large, loud, more obnoxious "I hate twilight and all of its sparkly gayness, and will campaign loudly for everyone and everything involved to die in a fire, including the fans" camp.

It's somehow stopped being something people can simply have an opinion about, and become something that somehow defines how other people will view you as a person, based entirely on your reaction to the series.

Oh, and 'not a real vampire/werewolf' comments on anything always make me laugh. It's a fictional being, imagined up by various authors over the years. The original vampires were an eastern European folk tale, and were very close to what we consider to be zombies today - those are 'real' vampires then. But that's not as interesting from a story perspective as it could be.

I think what people mean by "real" is that Twilight breaks from the mythos of Vampires

Now, before you go saying that actually the "traditional vampire" format breaks from the ORIGINAL vampies (cue link to some pre-Dracula vampire novel) blah blah blah...I should point out that I think everyone can accept that today, 2010, there is a defined list of Vampirish things

1. Turns to Ash/burns/erupts into flames (dies, basically) in direct sunlight
2. Sucks blood
3. Immortal/Invulnerable/Otherwise enhanced as a person
4. Etc

When Edward stepped out into the light and began sparkling, that's when alarm bells went off in the nerddom's collective hive mind. An immortal guy who sucks blood is just an immortal guy who sucks blood. Sunlight has to do SOMETHING bad to him to make him a vampire

And yes, I'm not saying we should stick to these things. We should, however, at least TRY to link them in. I could just draw a magical duck and call it a Vampire, but that's not changing or developing the definition of "Vampire", that's just slapping it on something silly (cue Edward)

...

Please note that I don't actually think this. I'm all for reinventing made up crap, I just hate the abominable writing (and made up words) in Twilight. I just wanted to say I see where these guys are coming from, so I got into their mindset

Similar note : Go check out "Alex Reads Twilight" on youtube, it's a hilarious way of actually reading the book so you can fight against the "You haven't even READ IT" Defence.

What Do WoW and Twilight Have in Common?

Both suck, and the fans are some of the most obnoxious people you can find (especially Twilight).

I was having a very similar conversation with two friends: one who preferred Twilight and one who preferred Buffy. The Buffy fan was preaching how Twilight vampires aren't 'proper' vampires because Buffy 'did it first' (hello, Bram Stoker anyone?). It was really pathetic that these two actually had a shouting row over it.

Do we really want every vampire to be Bela Lugosi in Dracula?

Um.... Yes? Would be cool to see some vampires would aren't dealing with emotions or fighting Blade in a black outfit with sunglasses. I honestly think no one will ever beat Lugosi in playing a vampire let alone Dracula.

He EATS MEAT. That's why I hate Edward. There's nothing, "Vegetarian" about him. You can't say you're vegetarian unless you really are. It doesn't mean you simply don't drink the blood of humans.

Basically I agree. We hate the twilight vamps mostly because they were made by some bitch's fantasies of an invincible piece of eyecandy. It's also adirect insult to every girl everywhere because it says, "you like it because it's shiny"

You only THINK they don't exist.

Great article. :3

kementari:
You only THINK they don't exist.

Great article. :3

*gasp*

does that mean your....

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH! RUN! RUN FROM THE DAEMONSPAWN!

and, I agree. HOWEVER: it should be condemned if it sucks.

The funk speaketh the truth. All take heed of his wise words.

The_root_of_all_evil:

Trying to find new spins on old concepts shouldn't be (and isn't) necessary, but it shouldn't be condemned, either

I think it's perfectly acceptable to condemn concepts that don't make sense in their own concept.

Twilight "vampires" fail because if they did exist, they'd break major laws of physics, chemistry, biology, anthropology and many other natural laws. And if you disregard those laws, without providing suitable laws to sustain them, they fail under their own laws.

Teleporters, Time Travel and numerous other "soft" sciences work because they provide a pseudo-scientific basis for their existence. If you're actually theorising a massive density, invulnerable creature that survives purely on an organic soup created by an inferior life-form; and has a biological component that itself acts intelligently, then there's an awful lot of laws you have to re-write to accommodate it. If you then want to add in a hyperactive shapeshifter than draws physical matter from nowhere, survives on the same soup, and is at constant war with a far superior enemy, which can re-create itself purely by swapping soup with another inferior life-form, then the basic laws of causality collapse into an author wishlist.

Fireballs may not exist; but thermodynamics, conservation of energy/momentum etc. that allow humanity to survive have to take account of this.

"Normal" vampires are creatures cursed by a Higher power to act like blood junkies, resembling the effects of known diseases (Porphyria/Rabies), known drug effects (PCP, Heroin) and base human fears (Xenophobia, Nictophobia, Sexual Predatory behaviour).

If Worgen have Crinos forms that draw power from Elder Gods, then I've no problem with them. If they have normal platemail that shifts with them, then there's something that needs looking at.

Alright! Good stuff my good chum. This right here is the deciding factor in whether I like an interpretation of fiction or not. It's not the existence of fantasy elements that irks me, its how well the author explains them, if at all.

If I may use an anime example: I think Fullmetal Alchemist did a pretty good job of explaining its brand of magic. You take basic chemical elements, break them down, and recreate them. You must follow the law of conservation of mass which they interpret as "Equivalent Exchange". Sure the finer details are a bit sketchy as to how they physically change an object's form, apart from a flash of light. But it more or less follows the laws it has set forth.

Now Bleach on the other hand, I'm not so impressed by. I don't watch it regularly so I may have missed something. So far, most of the "super powers" we see are blamed entirely on that ambiguous substance called "spirit energy". And any climactic secret moves are pulled entirely "Deus Ex Machina".

I was going to nerdrage about the very thought that WoW was anything like ... that thing I dare not say. But that was a good read regardless.

Though one part of that reminded me of something relevant to this topic.

John Funk:
View from the Road: What Do WoW and Twilight Have in Common?

Perhaps we expect creators to go down the check list to make sure they've got everything just right. "Drinks blood, check. Vaporizes in the sunlight, check. Sleeps in a coffin, check. Turns into a bat, check. Obsessed with counting? Ooh, we missed that one - let's go watch Sesame Street reruns for inspiration."

Read Full Article

Count Von Count: Six. Six Bats! Seven. Seven Bats! Ah ah ah!
Peter: Hey, is the Count a Vampire?
Brian: What's that?
Peter: Well he's got these big fangs. Have they ever shown him doin' somebody in and then feedin' on em?
Brian: You're, you're asking me if they've ever done a Seseme Street in which the Count kills somebody and then sucks their blood for sustenance
Peter: Yeah
Brian: No, they've never done that

Oddly enough, Tolkien's dwarves have nothing Scottish about them, but rather Jewish. In fact, they hit lots of the stereotypes Jews had in the beginning of the 20th Century: good craftsmen and jewelers, secretive, having their own tongue they used among themselves while using the tongue of the land with the "outsiders", and somewhat obsessed with riches (not my opinion, anyway). I frankly have no idea when dwarves became Scottish, actually...

I am reminded of how I invented the Lycanthropes for Guardians of London. I thought long and hard about what made weerebeats terrifying. Their ability to transform into a beastly creature and their inability to control that painful transition are a few things, as well as their superhuman strength and cunning. Which morphed into the cunning and cruel Loup Garou and their Cursed followers, master and servant. One werebeast able to control their transformations after careful meditation and training the others bound heart and soul to their master and transform at his will, not their. Invariably going into a murder frenzy during such transformations. This may be to the spirit of the werewolf myth, but lycanthropes could turn into whatever beastly animal they chose. A dog, a cat, a tiger, a bear, a rat, or a wolf were just a few beastly choices. What made the Cult of the Moon so special was how they were more akin to vampires, tough and vigilant and cunning, than werewolves which are by nature slobbering, crazy and angry.

But I suppose anyone is free to crate what characters they wish, just thinking. Maybe my ideas are sticking with the norm. At least they work in a way....whatever the author or artist or creator wants....they create.

On a quite sidenote, major bonus points for knowing who Lon Chaney is.

I don't play WoW, and while the female Worgen don't really look PRETTY, I think they looked kinda cool.

He makes a great point in this writing about "real" vampires and werewolves. People need to learn to chill about things that don't really matter THAT much. Variations are cool, too.

He said of elves:
"Are they ethereal and beautiful, woodsy and wise, or are they feral and cruel with a tendency to live underground and dual-wield scimitars?"

Sounds a lot like a reference to Drizz't Do'urden. If that's the case, then those would be dark elves...an entirely different race than elves, right? Or did I miss the reference?

Didn't nobody have offense to Bunnicula! The vegetarian bunny vampire with blood red eyes...

Really, this creature leecher preacher is fixing to teach 'er a lesson of just a little misplaced anger.

Plurralbles:
He EATS MEAT. That's why I hate Edward. There's nothing, "Vegetarian" about him.

Um, the "vegetarian" comments in the books were just saying that the vampires who didn't drink human blood were LIKE vegetarians. They weren't trying to say they actually WERE vegetarians lol

I will create a new dwarven stereotype for you, Mr. Funk. I don't know if I should piss everybody off by just changing one thing (Japanese accent?), reimagining them, or by making them sparkle in the sunlight.

AstorSapolsky:
I will create a new dwarven stereotype for you, Mr. Funk. I don't know if I should piss everybody off by just changing one thing (Japanese accent?), reimagining them, or by making them sparkle in the sunlight.

I'm afraid Japan already has Dwarves, badass ones:

Don't know if they sparkle though. :3

sparkyk24:
He said of elves:
"Are they ethereal and beautiful, woodsy and wise, or are they feral and cruel with a tendency to live underground and dual-wield scimitars?"

Sounds a lot like a reference to Drizz't Do'urden. If that's the case, then those would be dark elves...an entirely different race than elves, right? Or did I miss the reference?

Th' Drow rule supreme!! Incidentally, the Drow come to us from Scottish folklore, while Dark Elves in general are a Norse mythological creature. Although, in both cases they're reputed to be ugly humanlike things, with the Drow being closer to trolls than traditional elves.

I think the twilight books are popular because they are the combination of fantasy books that don't make people feel embaressed to confess to liking them, and the fact most female teenager fans feel they can relate to the characters purely on the basis of "I love him but it's not working out for us" which makes all further relating needless.
At a time when emotions rule so much of their lives, it can become enough to allow all the other stuff past.

Though I know some people have studied this in English, so they can probably give a better account then my guesswork.

John Funk:
What a vampire is "supposed to be"? It's a fictional creature! It does not exist!

On a somewhat related note: Murlocks exist! Yay!

Vegedus:
Well, you are right. One interpretation or spin on whatever fantasy monster or whatever isn't more right than the other. In that sense, yeah, the Vampires from Twilight are true vampires. However, they're nevertheless still a stupid take on the vampire. See this:

Just because the execution is flawed doesn't mean that the idea of a vegetarian vampire who glitters like Lady Gaga when exposed to sunlight couldn't be interesting if done correctly.

I find unlikely. I mean, I don't mind the vegetarian part. If you want to have vampires as good guys they need to have some sort of alternative food input. As long as they're still SUPPOSED to drink blood, they're still vampires (though this part is quite critical). I don't mind that sunlight don't hurt them, but still effect them, either. I rather like the spin that they have to keep out of the sunlight, or they blow their cover.

But why did they have to glitter?! It's not that it's too "original", it's that it's non-sentical and unfitting the general "image" of the vampire. Dark, moody creatures that... glitter? I suspect that the author simply ran out of superlatives and ways to describe Edward as the most beautiful creature ever, so she made him glitter in sunlight as well. "He's sooo prettyyyyyy..."

Actually, the essential part of vampires is leeching off of human life- Eastern vampires stole breath/life energy, yet they're still vampires.

The reason Twilight's creatures are not vampires is because they are not impeded in the slightest by sunlight (even before the whole 'instant death just add sunlight' thing became popular, vampires were nocturnal creatures, sunlight would either weaken them, kill them, or have other severely negative effects), do not require human life to survive (or for that matter, they really don't require blood at all, it seems they only get 'hungry', rather than actually suffer from a lack of anything), and are near-invincible (a key part of vampire lore was just how many ways there were to kill them, lighting them on fire was the usual. Twilight ones can only be chopped up, THEN set on fire, to be permanently destroyed. And might I add only vampires/shapeshifters are capable of this?).

There are hundreds of variations between cultures and times (just what it was they took out of humans, the various weaknesses *fire seems to be the only universal one. Holy objects vary, staking into the ground could be done with iron or wooden stakes **modern times have seen a rise of a simple stake to the heart, but it was originally pinning them into their graves**, or by planting a hawthorn or rose bush over the grave, they can only be invited in, running water, etc* different powers), but those were the key three traits to actual vampires. Twilight does NOT have any of these traits, ergo, they are not vampires. (On the whole vegetarian note: some vampires would go after livestock, but it was to ruin the family. Personally, I don't mind vampires feeding from animals as long as it's made clear that they act like a meal-replacement shake- tide you over for a bit, but you'll need real food if you want to live. Hybrids between vampires and humans have shifted a fair bit too, but the usual version was that they had the strengths of their vampire father, with none of the weaknesses, and were excellent vampire hunters. Some cultures added that they had flat noses because vampires had no bones, and others said they had extremely short lives.)

As for the werewolf thing... they are far looser than vampires. In fact, before being ruthless enemies, being a werewolf in life would cause you to become a vampire in death. Some could change at will using an enchanted wolfskin, and those they bit were forced changes, or it was strictly full moon. The only universal trait for a 'werewolf' was that they could only become a wolf.

For more detailed Twilight fails, I suggest you read this.

And the only 'real' vegetarian vampire is Bunnicula, dammit <_<

The reason I hate the vampires and werewolves in twilight is not so much because they're sparkly, but becuase they only really seem to be vampires and werewolves to stop the book being the same as so many other pieces of drivel.

tanithwolf:
The reason I hate the vampires and werewolves in twilight is not so much because they're sparkly, but becuase they only really seem to be vampires and werewolves to stop the book being the same as so many other pieces of drivel.

Which it didn't.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to get a story about synethes off the ground... -sigh-

Stupid fads.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here