The Final Fantasy VII Remake is a Fantasy

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Playing the ignorant and skipping to the end, so apologies if this has already been stated.

In my mind, Squaresoft is biding their time, but they will not be releasing a remake on the PS3, or Xbox 360 or any of the major systems. Hey, maybe they'd do a Wii release, but that's doubtful.

My money is on the release of a handheld like the PSP or its predecessor. Partly because they've already released FF3 and FF4 on the DS, and while there has been no news of a remake of FF5 or FF6, the Nintendo 3DS was only recently announced (leaked, even). I know there was a news post on The Escapist before explaining the DS itself had limitations that would make those games difficult, but I imagine the 3DS may not be bogged down as much.

Still, it is believed that Sony holds the rights to publish FF7, and considering that it was the first non-Nintendo entry in the series it would seem sort of proper that the series would jump from Nintendo's handheld back over to Sony's.

However, the real matter is that a handheld will always be cheaper, but considering the power of the PSP you can still make the game look better without having to drop the insane expenses required on a full console platform. Shortcuts can be taken, but as long as it looks better than the PSX then fans will be pleased. Putting the game on a system not everyone has will be something people bitch about, but if people were willing to buy a Playstation just for Final Fantasy 7 (myself included, though since then I've never chosen to buy a console for such a reason again) then I think we can assume people will buy a PSP just so they can play a remake of FF7. Bonus points if Sony allows you to connect the PSP to your PS3 and display the game on your television. Sure, it won't be current gen HD, but, once again, it'll be better than on a small handheld screen.

Such a remake would have a reduced budget but would sell just as many units, and would therefore maximize profits.

It is, in a business sense, the most logical choice Squaresoft could make if they went and made a remake.

Though honestly, I'll just by the PSX one and be happy with that. I'd love an FF6 remake, but at the same time there were some elements of the FF4 remake that didn't transfer well. It's fun, but it doesn't carry the same atmosphere (and let's face it, nostalgia). Plus, they gave Golbez an additional bit of retarded background that can only be described as "shit".

Ok, I realise I'm one of the people who said they have the 'resources' knocking about.

But I'd like it clear that while yes I did say that I never once said that they should take the character models from other FFVII games...
I said take them from Advent Children.

Characters? Sorted they're made.
Background characters? The movie had those too.

I'm of course aware that it's not as easy as 'just rip 'em out the movie' but like I said, I just wanted it known that I wasn't implying to put some polish on polygons from 1995...

This is of course only for the graphic-whores who insist on everything being hyper-realistic.
I actually really Squeenix to take a cartoony approach to it.
Have character models like the ones from the FFIII remake on the DS (with slight polish, of course).
I reckon it'd be a daring approach to the re-make that would probably end favourably.


Mr. Win:
tbh they should just release 7-9 on retail as Final Fantasy Last Games Most Fans Liked or something.

Eeeeh. I wasn't crazy about FFIX. I loved VII and VIII (anyone notice that when talking about Final Fantasy, it's almost required to use Roman numerals?), and X and X-2 (bad as it is, I still love it). I think that they want to avoid the X-2 trap (which was a sequel rushed out in order to capitalize on FFX's popularity and sales) of just releasing a game to make money.

Asking Square Enix to halt production of their Final Fantasy line to do a remake is a little preposterous and more than a little egotistical. We don't know for sure if people would buy it or not. With the recent increase in game piracy, who's to say whether it would actually make the big bucks everyone claims when more people are interested in getting it for free?

I don't actually know what Square Enix said regarding the remake, but it's not as impossible to accomplish as they're saying; I think they're just wary of how much profit they would actually make versus how quickly it would be pirated.

To the poster who mentioned manga-style cutscenes, Chrono Trigger's release with FFIV had 30-second anime-style cutscenes in place of (or in addition to, I don't recall) its SNES ones. Something similar would work here, or the cel-shaded TF2-style cutscenes.

To be honest, though, I have to wonder how many people would actually buy the game. We've been feeding on FFVII for over a decade, I think it's time that we let it go, but to do that Square Enix also needs to stop jerking the leash.

I'd also be in favor of a PSP remake. Crisis Core was good, if not great (and I hated that final part at the end where you have to play as Zach yet you still couldn't win no matter how much you tried), and seeing something like that for a remake of FFVII would be interesting.

I mean, release it like they released Final Fantasy Anthology, or something. It would make a lot of money, not require much work, and give fans who have broken their PS2 a legal alternative to emulators.

Also I think part of the reason the fanboys want it is to see a realistic Cloud cross dress.

I would never assume that remaking FFVII would be an easy task. I love the original, so can't say I'll be too gutted if they don't remake it. Even with swish graphics, there would be no replacing it.

This article depresses me a bit. The thought that decent gameplay is being sacrificed for expensive graphics is quite frustrating. FFXIII seems to try so hard to impress with looks alone. The graphics are lovely, but what does that matter when I get bored of playing it rather quickly.

I think people want an FFVII remake so much because they realize just how far Square has fallen since then.

^^Note: The above wikipedia article does not include certain games that received only minor graphical updates in their porting to current-gen consoles(ex: Perfect Dark, God of War, God of War 2, etc.) It also does not notate remakes that have yet to come out (ex: Secret of Monkey Island 2)

What is it about FFVII that makes it a 40-year money sink? Some of these games got full graphical updates, updated the console they run on to a more current-gen system, received voice-overs, and added major localization changes to the game. Some were simple updates whilst others were almost entirely new games.

Normally I would say that Square Enix would know more about their finances and resources than I do, but it seems I feel like they keep funding poorly made JRPGs that don't sell as well as their "good" games when they could focus on an FFVII remake.

I don't even like FFVII that much. My fondest memories of Square are tied to Dragon Warrior Monsters 2: Tara's Adventure. It's just that because I loved the HD remake of Secret of Monkey Island, I can see the value (dare I say importance) of making classics more accessible to the modern audience. If Square Enix wants to deny players a nostalgia trip through their favorite childhood game, that's their prerogative, but don't exaggerate to consumers by stating that the time and resources required for a remake would be comparable to a space shuttle launch when that is not necessarily the case.

Also, as stated before, graphics are costly for remakes, yes. But graphics are expensive regardless. It's called a budget: You figure out what you can or can not do, what changes need to be made, and what is priority while taking into account the resources available. I'm not sure if they are expecting too much, if they're afraid to drastically change a classic, or if they are just screwing with everyone.

Skipped to the end as it's 200 posts, but why not just straight port it to a PS2, and PSP disc straight? Don't upgrade it, just release it for say $15-20

People who can't get the old 4 cd version will be able to play it, and Square don't have to risk millions tarting up a game that millions of people still rate, with its PS1 visuals, as one of the greatest RPGs ever.

People who want to play FF7, aren't really overlapping the group of people who demand trilinear pixel wanking on everything.

Skipped to the end as it's 200 posts, but why not just straight port it to a PS2, and PSP disc straight? Don't upgrade it, just release it for say $15-20

People who can't get the old 4 cd version will be able to play it, and Square don't have to risk millions tarting up a game that millions of people still rate, with its PS1 visuals, as one of the greatest RPGs ever.

People who want to play FF7, aren't really overlapping the group of people who demand trilinear pixel wanking on everything.

FF7 is already available over PSN for the PS3 and the PSP.

As is FF8 and 9.

Heh, fair enough, I don't follow the PS3 or PSP myself, but that brings the question, who's demanding an HD update, if they have the game?

A new FF game, I can understand, but the exact same game again, with smoother corners?

Nice to hear some sense from the guy in charge, saying 'no, we're going to invest our time and money in making some new games thanks.'

The bottom line is they would make such a ridiculous assload of money from the game that they really stand nothing to loose by undertaking it.

I can't really imagine anyone who has a PS3 and played the original FF7 -not- buying it, not to mention any new fans of the series that have been following since the newer prettier releases.

So basically the point is.

Stop expecting to get good games anymore. Graphics are the primary goal of all game developers so unless you like shiny shit you are up a creek without a paddle.

And that creek is full of piranhas.

And the surface is on fire.

and you are nearing a waterfall.

and at the bottom are robot alligators with lazer vision waiting to destroy you.

Games in the past sold on substance because visually they weren't blowing any minds, I guess, I thought they were damn good. Now games are sold visually and substance comes a distant distant second.

Jeeze. Minecraft is far better a game than FF13 and its just in Alpha. It was when Final Fantasy 13 hit that I realized that graphics had officially been the replacement for any sort of gaming substance. 12 Was good (but a nip restrictive), 10 made me wish you could turn off voice actors (Tidus was terrible), 9 was fantastic (my favorite), 8 was ok, 7 was great, 6 was really good, I don't believe I've ever played 5, 4 was great, 3 was fun, 2 was ok, and 1 was...well frankly that was a long time ago so it was good for its time.

I'm assuming at this point 14 is going to look better than a fourway with 3 nymphos but is going to be as much a game as a 3D movie is a game. I'll walk to the next corridor, watch a cutscene and listen to 10 minutes of dialogue, then walk to the next corridor and repeat. I'm sure they'll have fully automated combat by then too.

Heh, fair enough, I don't follow the PS3 or PSP myself, but that brings the question, who's demanding an HD update, if they have the game?

A new FF game, I can understand, but the exact same game again, with smoother corners?

Nice to hear some sense from the guy in charge, saying 'no, we're going to invest our time and money in making some new games thanks.'

For most old games I'd just prefer a framerate enhancement. I've become jaded and like my games to be smooth in motion (not necessarily in looks).

Old games like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark are still solid titles but their framerates and resolutions can actually be hard to handle these days. Not that I'm picky, I just literally can't make out what I'm doing anymore :/.

They could just as easily upgrade Final Fantasy 7 to the level of Final Fantasy 12 graphically and people would be all over them with sex and alcohol. Yes I know, that's still expensive, but FF12 wasn't exactly a small game and they managed to make it :/.

I get that it would be expensive, but I still don't see why it would be more expensive than, say, making a new final fantasy game (E.G. FFXIII) from scratch, and considering it would probably sell crazy good... I'm still not seeing why not.

First, the fans of the original are precisely the wrong crowd to try and please here. Sure, it may be possible to give some portion of them what they want but for the rest there would undoubtedly be nothing but howling about one betrayal or another. The game was released ages ago - so long in fact that the people who played that game when it was released are often pushing 30 or so. There is a huge portion of the modern gaming community that was not old enough to hold a controller when it was released - people who are the very sort who will post threads like "Why is Doom considered good". Sure, you have a vocal crowd in the form of the old fans of the series but I'm hardly convinced they are sufficient in number to warrant the cost nor am I even remotely convinced that such a crowd can be pleased. Such attempts at a reboot/remake are RARELY well recieved. If you don't believe it, just look at the backlash of old fans of things like Star Wars, Star Trek, Fallout, Bionic Commando, Day of the Dead, The Watchmen, Sin City, Transformers and any of the countless examples. Sure, some of these things found success, some of them even managed to convert a reasonable portion of the old guard into fans of the new direction, but you'll find that in each and every case of success it did not hinge on the fanaticism of that vocal minority. Did Fallout 3 become a wild successs story because it adhered to concepts a decade old or ideas that the fans though crucial or because they tossed it out the window and made a game that appealed to the masses of the moment?

Second, that game was made with different limitations than currently exist, and Shamus did a pretty good job of pointing out what these were. If you want to painstakingly recreate a scene designed for a 2D game in 3D, you are almost certain to incur far more work as a result. The world was designed very specifically to work within it's limitations - removing the limitations does not imply one ought to execute the idea in precisely the same fashion using new technology and techniques. Inevitably, the result of forward progress is rarely that a problem is well and truly solved - it simply moves the problem into some other domain. Before the advent of audio in motion pictures, physical acting was critical when conveying emotional states of characters. Once audio was added it did not make the job of an actor easier - it just gave them another set of tools to master. The same is true in games - as technology has marched relentlessly forward, the games we see made generally narrow in scope. Fallout 3 has only a tiny fraction of the content present in Fallout 2 yet cost far more to produce. What's more, the content in these new games is designed from the ground up knowing the precise limitations that are present with modern technology. It is rarely a question of "can we do this" but rather a question of how long will it take and what needs to be cut to make it happen. In order to have any hope of pleasing the old guard you would be forced to simply find a way regardless of the cost, which leads back to the first problem.

One COULD make a game that follows the same story with the same chracters that went to the same places for a similar budget as FF13 I'd suspect. But this is not the game the people are asking for. They want precisely the same game they played more than a decade ago presented in spectacular 3D - and this is almost certainly more difficult than a simple remake.

I have two opinions to belatedly share--and I feel this is moot because when people read a thread their interest seems to taper off around the start of page three, but I'm going to do it anyway.

I fail to see how the budget of creating the game is an issue [yes, I did read the entire article]. Let me explain:

For Square-Enix to present a PS3 game, it requires prohibitively expensive graphics and hundreds of thousands of hours worth of work. Square-Enix is a business that presents PS3 games. It aims to sell those games, and I can't fathom how an investment like a Final Fantasy VII remake, with all those trimmings, would fail to capture an immense profit from purchasers both in fans of nostalgia and newcomers alike. A repackaging is exactly what a business does to further their earnings by catering to these two audiences. Is it because other projects would be cut or delayed in order to make room in the budget? I guess maybe I'm just bitter: I would've preferred a PS2 remake of FFVII to have wasted tens of hours on rather than what I got instead... installment XII.

And the second:

You know what I find to be more "prohibitive" towards this remake than the cost? The goddamn campiness of it. Does no one remember that Cloud spent a portion of the game doing competitive squats for a wig to complete his motherfucking drag show?

You know what I find to be more "prohibitive" towards this remake than the cost? The goddamn campiness of it. Does no one remember that Cloud spent a portion of the game doing competitive squats for a wig to complete his motherfucking drag show?

Or the fact that an integral character to the story is a talking wolf, or that there's a god damn cat riding a moogle in your party.

Or Don Corneo doing the hip thrust in your face, Reno and Rude chatting about girls they like, the scene in the Honey Bee Inn which can only be described as a "man stew". And also, Dio the Golden Saucer's manager wearing nothing but a speedo and a handle bar mustache.

I can't imagine this shit flying well to a new generation of gamers accustomed to roided out space marines shooting their way through baskets of gore.

Screw an FF7 remake, we still haven't gotten an FF6 one. Don't suppose they mentioned that at all?

Friggin' Squeenix.

I don't care if fifty other people made a similar post, I simply HAD to comment on this particular subject. Even if it's just to reaffirm it... Why do we even NEED top of the line, eye-blistering current gen graphics, lighting, sound, etc, and so on!??? Is everyone in the gaming world really THAT spoiled by new technology that every game simply HAS to have it? If so, then I would say it's the gamers themselves that are making a remake impossible. Personally, I would happy if they remade it with previous generation graphics and such. The PS2 had great graphics and geez, as far as sound goes, I remember plugging my PS1 into my uncles $3000 movie stereo system to play GT2 and him being surprised by how high quality the sound was. I'm sure it would still take years and years and truck-loads of money to make, but, it would be easier and maybe cost some truck-loads less than trying to bling it out like it's the freaking Crytech engine or some crap.

The article overhypes the development time and cost of graphics. Bringing the cities to current gen is not impossible as stated. And they dont just have the script done, they have everything from battle balance to dialogues and everything in between. It would take a year to create the graphics for it. As for the cost, they have the resources and they know the profit to be made.

if they can do 2 "big" FF titles at once they can do a normal FF title and a FF7 remake too.

Would love to see FF12 environments and a over world based off it used as the main world.

They can do it with context based combat based off ATB bars and have turn based mode,active TB mode and real time mode.

Use FF12/FF13 properties redo models textures, remake the game with alil something extra level design wise, drop the skill/equipment systems put in the FF7. Its not that impossible not for them the trouble is will it get in the way of the people in charge and their pet projects like FF13?

Screw an FF7 remake, we still haven't gotten an FF6 one. Don't suppose they mentioned that at all?

Friggin' Squeenix.

Calling Bullshit on the Article. The only reason FFVII sold as well as it did was based on the popularity of FFVI which was the last FF to have a non-single character centralized plot. ei; FF died after that. I enjoyed FFVII, but I'd also rather see a FFVI remake first.

They remade Final Fantasy Tactics, why not 7?

And how is designing a 3D FF7 any different from making a whole new game? The FF7 remake would probably sell better than a new Final Fantasy anyway.

The article is sort of flawed...he's explaining why it would be difficult to make a FF7 Remake, but he doesn't explain why it would be more difficult than making a new game. Even if interesting story and characters are only .1% of making a game (Which, for Square-Enix, could very well be the case), that's still .1% you don't have to do, and we all know that an FF7 Remake would sell like hotcakes.

I wish Square would just come out and say "We don't want to make a remake, we want to make a good new game." THAT I would really respect...but enough of pretending they can't.

I also wish they would apologize for ruining the Grandia series.


For the tech demo, they wanted to show the PS3's power, and what better way to get people's attention with the game that has alot of....fanboys..., and those fanboys would go rush out and buy a PS3. Seems a bit smart to me.

Then they kinda shot themselves in the foot when you look at it that way. To show such an amazing game off to get people's attention and then say "BTW, We can't make that." Not the best idea IMO. Though to be fair, it might have gotten people excited for the next FF. I still don't think it was a good idea.

On that topic I need to go show my friend that opening and get his hopes up, then dash them horribly for fun.


Also, I agree with the script bit. When they redid MGS for the Gamecube, I'm sure as hell Kojima never intended Snake to like do matrix flips every 5 seconds, and stuff. The only thing that was common between the both games was that it had A) Snake, B) Shadow Moses, C) All the same characters, and D) The same story guidelines. The rest just was destroying of what made the orginal MGS great. Ocelot's boss battle, with First Person Shooter, was like 10X easier then in the orginal when you eaither had to run after him, or plant C4 at the one corner.

I remember reading somewhere (I don't remember where) that it makes sense if you look at it this way. The first game is what happened, the remake is how it was told. See the difference.

Also personally I believe the Ninja cutscenes (and only them) were better in TS. Unlike Snake, who was badass but still human, I could believe what Gray Fox did.

I understand that the major point here is a remake up top par with FFXIII, but do we really need that? Personally, i say stick it on a handheld so people can't get all butt-hurt over not having XIII's graphics. It should stand to reason that a FFIV remake on a handheld should look at least as good as the FFIV remake, which is probably all we'd really need.

And as another point, Square Enix has already "remade" FFVII in a sense. It is available on PSN, after all.

dude i love your articles but whats the deal with going out of your way to explain stuff to bias fanboys?

*shrug* i learned nothing from this really.. all because i have payed attention to the news when stuff on this comes up.

Ya know what would be nice? To leave FFVII in the past with all those good memories and for Square to MAKE A F**KING DECENT GAME EVER AGAIN? Surely?

Ooh, and while you're about it, WHERE IN THE NAME OF SANITY IS MY REMAKE OF TOBAL NO. 1???????

The fact remains that there's only one, in all of Square's long, long list of games, that millions of people are actually calling on them to remake, and regardless of such obstacles, it's a very valid possibility they'll revisit the option at some point.

First, there isn't only one. Final Fantasy VI routinely beats out VII in fan favorite polls, Chrono Trigger spawned fan sequels, and am I the only one who still holds a torch for Seiken Densetsu 3?

and Second, of the millions who loved FFVII, at least hundreds of thousands are pragmatists who, like me, don't want to see it remade. Thing were different in 1997. We needed FFVII to come along and tell the world that, yes, video games can have stories and marketing budgets and emotional investments. But today, we don't need that. We've already had a pretty extensive wank-fest over Final Fantasy VII, with a bunch of movies, tangentially related video games, and a G.D. line of energy drinks. Let's put away the cum rags and grow up along with our favorite medium.

Ya know what would be nice? To leave FFVII in the past with all those good memories and for Square to MAKE A F**KING DECENT GAME EVER AGAIN? Surely?

Ooh, and while you're about it, WHERE IN THE NAME OF SANITY IS MY REMAKE OF TOBAL NO. 1???????

I loved that stupid game. "You have found the mammoth meat."

Also, Ehrgeiz. "God Bless the Ring."

Still waiting for my remake of FFVI. Anytime would be nice, guys.


Stop acting like we're just saying we want to relive the only decent game in the FF series or something. It's not quite as deep as that.

It's very simple. For many, many people, FFVII was one of the greatest games they remember playing, and they'd love to see it given the same treatment as games these days are capable of getting.

It wouldn't NEARLY be the first game to be remade. And you know what, it's not the only game any of us would like to see remade. It's just one that a good many people want to see remade.

Now, you're kidding yourself if you think Final Fantasy VI is more widely liked than VII, it doesn't take much to prove that wrong. I myself liked VI fairly well, but that was still in the time before stories became truly deep.

Look, no one's saying they need an FFVII remake to be the second coming of Christ or anything, we just want to see one of our favorite games remastered and renewed.

Or hell, what about a sequel? I think tons of us would love a sequel. FFX got a sequel. Or think about something like Half-Life, an old game which had a brand new sequel with awesome next-gen design.

Would that be something you'd be more interested in?

More than anything, this makes me sad. It's like learning that an old childhood friend whom you haven't seen in ages but were always hoping to meet up with again has died and that promised reunion will never happen. And you had looked forward to it so much; imagined how now, as adults, you would be able to share things and have a friendship on a level much deeper than the one you had know as kids.

Alas, all you can do is dust off that old picture album and get lost in the memories...

reasonable points. However, SquareEnix should have the budget to remake the game so they see fit to do. Would it take as long as what they stated? I highly doubt it. Thats my only gripe. i never assume they are making it now or that its ez to do so. Im just calling them liars with the amount of time it would take. They certainly are a big enough company to have the resource to do the game justice. But when they say it'll take a better part of 4 decades...yeh i call bullshit on that :P

they just dont have a motivation to remake it atm. Should that motivation arise (say drop in stocks) this game would be their golden goose, and we all know the story behind that. Keeping it alive is more valuable than killing it right away :P

They should just make it an anime, FFVII although i love it to bits, the game play probably wouldn't stand up today, an anime would be able to tell the story without the necessary grinding and if they got Madhouse studio to do it it would be looking awesome.

Otherwise just wait another 10 years.

Square LOVES 10 year release dates, they did it for I and II theyve remade IV 10 times and FFVII got crisis core on its 10th birthday, hell 20th gave us Dissidia...

MAYBE they're going to have the collaboration of FFVII as ONE BIG ASS PACKAGE

think about it, from Before Crisis to Dirge of Cerberus... all 5 games and the movie as one...

Because I am lazy and can't be bothered to read over all the previous posts (most of them seem to say the same thing anyway), I may be saying something previously stated; if so, apologies.

My question is: what is it about FFVII that's so badly in NEED of a remake in the first place?

If, as so many fans incessantly bray, it truly is the "BEST GAME EVARRRR," then I don't see how a remake could improve upon it (apart from updated graphics, of course--and Shamus here has made clear the expense and tedium of such an endeavor). But even if they could, the game still stands up pretty well on its own. I popped it in a few weeks ago and ran around Wutai, trying to get my materia back, then went up and totally owned Don Corneo. Still pretty fun. Where's the sense in remaking all that?

People have talked about how a remake would make scads of money. Sure, but the next entry in the Final Fantasy series almost certainly will as well. Though I don't pretend to understand videogame market forces very well, it seems clear enough that the Final Fantasy series has a strong enough following that Square's going to be able to sell the games, unless there starts to be a true declining trend of game quality. And that seems unlikely.

Really, Square's money and time is better invested in creating a NEW story, not rehashing what's already been done. You can still play the original FFVII with relative ease, and it's still a solid game (I think, anyway). I'd rather see Square develop more compelling storylines in the future, rather than just telling the same story.

My question is: what is it about FFVII that's so badly in NEED of a remake in the first place?

Personally, I don't yearn for a remake. However, one could ask the same question regarding Final Fantasy VI: How exactly is it paramount compared to Final Fantasy VII?

It's all a matter of opinion and neither side of both fan bases of these two games will come to an agreement. One fan of Final Fantasy VI might have had a revolutionary and nostalgic experience, but this doesn't stand true for all Final Fantasy VII fans.

I think also if you remake the game it probably wouldn't have the sae success as there'd be a few people that would think something like "I already played it before so why should I buy it again".

I disagree completely. You're only thinking of old fans who've played the game before. I started gaming shortly after FFX came out. I would LOVE to play a next gen FFVII. Yes, I could just go play FFVII, but it's very difficult for someone who's used to good graphics to go that far backwards. There are plenty of younger gamers who would love to play it. Because we're unfamiliar with the first game's content, although some of us know the story because we've played Crisis Core and watched Advent Children, we wouldn't mind if they changed the settings and battle system to make it more cost-efficient.

The game would definitely sell and I would rather play an altered FFVII remake than the disappointment that is FFXIII. If it never happens, I think it will be more because it's not something Square Enix is interested in investing in, which is understandable, rather than it being "impossible." I'll keep hoping all the same!

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