Red Dead Redemption

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I'm pretty sure Dingos are nothing more than wild dogs. So, for Dingos to exist at all, dogs must be able survive the wilderness even after people raise them in a domestic setting. Also, wolves aren't much more noble than dogs. All animals are jerks, wolves included.

I will agree with this though, modern man is definitely dumber than his aboriginal cousins.

Yahtzee, go join a development team or something, these good ideas need implementing, not wasting on us.

Oh horse seducing.....that Jeb guy was to weird! he even married it in the end...

Actually, I think the game is pretty good the way it is. And I'm a casual gamer, so I *know* what I'm talking about.

More to the point, once you get a good horse you spend a lot of your time worrying about the thing getting mauled by bears, wolves and tigers. And then you go out and spend your time trying to find and break a new one in.

Sure, it would have been fun to have a "real" hunting mechanic with tracks, long periods sitting around waiting and using little "quack-quack" horns to attract ducks but, dammit, that's what MMOs are for.

The whole "too much money" and "breaking the law is optional" is all too true though. Then again, some people (i.e. me) find the whole law-breaking thing distasteful in the first place which is why I didn't play GTA. So I actually appreciated that this game, for effing once, allowed you to gun down a bajillion people simply because they're "gang members" and allowed me to keep my illusions of propriety and law-abidingness intact.

Top game, all things considered. I'll hear nowt wrong about it.

This may be the best article Yahtzee's written. From the comparison of the modern man to the dog in contrast to the wolf, to the brilliance of the hunger, thirst and fatigue meters, it's brimming with brilliance and has touches of his trademark humor without beating the reader over the head with it.

Further proof that he's not just a shouty Anglo-Aussie doing it for the lulz.

This is possibly my favorite and also the most well written Extra Punctuation you've written, it was really excellent. As much of a bane to the world's existence Metal Gear Solid is, the third game had a well implemented survival system that did all of the things you spoke of as far as failing to nourish yourself led to bad performance. What added to that even further was that you had to hunt your food from the forest, a lot of which were poisonous snakes and ravenous fish. You were also forced to steal medical supplies from enemy bases so that getting bitten by your potential meal didn't mean death. I can definitely seeing this game being improved by such a mechanic.

Wow, Yahtzee actually brought up some of the same things I was thinking. Breaking the law and going for some intense police shootouts or car chases was probably my favorite part of GTA4 which is why I was kinda disappointed with the law in RDR because a couple guys chasing you on horse for a little while isn't really all that different from the regular missions...

I dunno I thought it was a solid game except the last few missions bored the hell out of me. I mean, shooting crows that are going after your corn and taking your son hunting is all well and good but it's so dull considering you jump right into it after having a wonderful raid on an indian settlement.

I really think some of those missions should have been at the beginning of the game so that you could 1) actually get to know this family that you're supposed to want to save rather than spending the whole game fighting for the freedom of some anonymous figures and 2) Yeah they were dull but those missions actually would have made for a decent tutorial. That's just me though.

The whole idea of the meters reminds me of "Indigo Prophecy" which is what made it stand out to me... and I'd love to see some actual real life needs in games like the bathroom and food and so on.

This is the article that I will continue to link to my peers accompanied by the GTA4 review. The two demonstrate essentially what Yahtzee boils down to. He makes good points through his nitpicking and demonstrates he is impossible to please.

With Red Dead Redemption, his problem is that there is no point. There are quests and there is a story but the developers never force or encourage you to continue the narrative. The game is a true sandbox environment, with desert, sand and dust stretching from coast to coast. However with Rockstar's previous blockbuster GTA4 the complaint was that developers shouldn't force players to go on missions, a certain personality, and interrupt their freedom inside a sandbox game.

Wasn't it just two weeks ago that Yahtzee was saying how awful it was of Monster Hunter to "make sure you were properly prepared before setting out", and having "constantly decreasing meters" to be more realistic?

Sounds like you want them to make Bear Grylls the game. Which is coincidentally how I felt of the game... well I would have if I had to eat what I killed and we had the hunger/thirst/stanima bars you where mentioning. The world is filled with animals roaming the land and it's amusing at first, with the hunter and sharpshooter challenges... also being that the skinning business is a pretty good source of income at the very early stages of the game. However once you've done three or four bounty missions... You never need any more money and once you finish the challenges of the west, you no longer need to skin animals. Well unless you want free health items... Which you don't really need with the regenerative abilities your player has.

The game set it up brilliantly for a Born Survivor (Man vs Wild for our American friends) free-roamer. I mean most the plants you pick up seem to have a purpose behind them... Some are described to cure certain illnesses like Fever and such which sounded interesting and made me keep hold of them for a while in case I succumbed to Fever. However it never happens and it made the plants pretty much useless... Unless you wanted a free Dead-Eye re-fill... Which regenerates anyway (pretty fast too) so I don't see the point.

Damn. That sounds like a good idea. I want to play that game now. Too bad it will never be made.

but yahtzee, who's to say what is the better form of evolution? when you set your mind on one path, you close off all others. Is it not better for dogs to coexist with people, something wolves could not do? I could name issues, like how farmdogs don't fit into that mindset, but if you are truly going to argue that all men should stick strictly to one path, it wouldn't have merit. Sticking to one path cuts off all ties to other ways in which people and a culture can evolve, and eventually brings everything to a screeching halt. If something has no evolution, be it for good or for bad, then what purpose can that thing ultimately serve by living?

Fattimus:
Wasn't it just two weeks ago that Yahtzee was saying how awful it was of Monster Hunter to "make sure you were properly prepared before setting out", and having "constantly decreasing meters" to be more realistic?

I think it was the number of meters that bothered him.
Hot/Cold
Sharpness
Health
Stamina
Many others in terms of items... Yahtzee is asking for a very simple version of it.

Health, Dead eye
Hunger, Stamina, Thirst

You still need to sleep, because that's saving your game, so building a healthy habit of that wouldn't impede you too bad...

But in the old west you can steal from others, wheras in monster hunter you're alone. So even ill prepared, you can rob your way through

The hunger and fat meter were the things I hated most about GTA San Andreas. It's no fun having to always run to the nearest burger shot every 10 minutes to make sure your character isn't to hungry or to skinny.

dnose:
I'm going to have to call "bulls**t" on Yahtzee this time. If they had the "Survival" system like he's suggesting, he would have criticized the system for taking you out of the action and out of the game similar to the way you had to take your friends bowling in the first game.

This.

Celtic_Kerr:

Fattimus:
Wasn't it just two weeks ago that Yahtzee was saying how awful it was of Monster Hunter to "make sure you were properly prepared before setting out", and having "constantly decreasing meters" to be more realistic?

I think it was the number of meters that bothered him.
Hot/Cold
Sharpness
Health
Stamina
Many others in terms of items... Yahtzee is asking for a very simple version of it.

Health, Dead eye
Hunger, Stamina, Thirst

You still need to sleep, because that's saving your game, so building a healthy habit of that wouldn't impede you too bad...

But in the old west you can steal from others, wheras in monster hunter you're alone. So even ill prepared, you can rob your way through

Sounds like he's asking for even more complicated stuff than Monster Hunter. Hot/Cold was only present in area where the weather was extreme (deserts, snow tundras). Sharpness, Health, and Stamina are it... as opposed to what he wants, which is Thirst, Hunger, Weariness, Dead Eye. Sometimes MH gave you buffs like Attack Up or Health Up from eating meals before leaving on hunts... but those only went away if you died, they weren't timed.

Plus, you aren't actually alone in Monster Hunter. You can get NPC companions, or play online with others. You can *choose* to go it alone, but it's not forced.

I'm not looking to start another 800+ comment thread, just seems a little bit hypocritical to want features he hated two weeks ago. Sounds like it would make Red Dead Redemption an even bigger pain in the ass than Monster Hunter, by a huge margin. How fast would Hunger/Thirst deteriorate? Would you have to stop in the middle of combat to drink from a canteen and take a bite of some jerky before you end up missing way too many of your shots? How would that be any different from taking two seconds to sharpen your sword?

This sounds a lot like the hardcore mode in the upcoming Fallout: New Vegas. Who knows, if Obsidian does a good job of with it we might see other games implement something similar. I certainly hope when New Vegas comes out you review the hardcore mode, I'll be interested in hearing your take.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it sounds to me like he's describing S.T.A.L.K.E.R 3 up there.

yeh really you need to be able to pay for sex man especially since some of the ranchy shit you hear the whores say when u pass by! XD

Im all for this survival mode! Yahtzee you should consider playing the Steam game called "The Ship" you have to LIVE and still assassinate a quarry.

tho best with real ppl around. and we know how much u dislike playing with ppl XD

Because tedious micromanagement is FUN!

Seriously, that's a terrible idea. I liked the game, but I can certainly admit it was far from perfect. This just would have made it worse though.

afaceforradio:
I don't really like health/tiredness/hunger/etc meters in games. That's why I don't like the Sims. It's a game. They're not meant to get hungry then whine about it in clipart form.

Hmm, I totally agree with this person, er, the one I've quoted(whoever you are).

I can just see Yahtzee complaining about a survival system, by just watching the sims review.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/800-The-Sims-3

I agree with the assessment of RDR's problem but not Yahtzee's solution. The last thing an endless sea of land and sand needs is not one but three separate bars to maintain. It's bad enough that getting to every mission/activity/whatever requires a ten minute ride. Tack on that you need to hydrate, sleep, eat and you're going to have a game where you're spending a lot of time not having fun. And that's the point of games. RDR's problem for me was that it was too slow and too sparse on excitement. Yahtzee's proposal essentially heightens that weakness with the supposed benefit of immersion. That's the same kind of thinking that EVE employs, and likewise, the supposed immersion overpowers the fun and the experience doesn't have enough value.

I really like this idea, seems as though it would finally give legitimate reasons in RDR to commit crimes.

The survivalism aspect is the main reason I'm really looking forward to Fallout: New Vegas. The hardcore mode where ammunition has weight, food needs to be constantly consumed, radiation is harder to remove, etc. seems like it'll give the game a lot more depth and make altruism a lot more of a liability in the game.

ModusPwnens:
"Players would have to be sure they were properly equipped before heading out of town."

Didn't you complain about this mechanic in Monster Hunter Tri?

Fattimus:
Wasn't it just two weeks ago that Yahtzee was saying how awful it was of Monster Hunter to "make sure you were properly prepared before setting out", and having "constantly decreasing meters" to be more realistic?

You have a very simplistic way of looking at things. I can make it simple.

Being prepared and well stocked before leaving =/= Having to go home every time you want to change equipment out that you are carrying on you.

pigsnoutman:

afaceforradio:
I don't really like health/tiredness/hunger/etc meters in games. That's why I don't like the Sims. It's a game. They're not meant to get hungry then whine about it in clipart form.

Hmm, I totally agree with this person, er, the one I've quoted(whoever you are).

I can just see Yahtzee complaining about a survival system, by just watching the sims review.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/800-The-Sims-3

Many simplistic people. Okay, the reason he was bitching about a survival system in that video is because in Sims 3 it's the only gameplay system and it's not challenging to do either.

"What it needed was a survival mechanic. On-screen meters for hunger, thirst and exhaustion, which constantly tick down as you adventure, requiring that you frequently eat, hydrate and camp out or hire a room for the night."

Arx Fatalis anyone. Mostly this just became deeply annoying. You either had to carry around 200 lbs of food, or died of starvation in the middle of a city because there was no food to steal.

On-screen meters for hunger, thirst and exhaustion, which constantly tick down as you adventure, requiring that you frequently eat, hydrate and camp out or hire a room for the night.

Wild West Sims?

I haven't decided whether this is a great idea or a terrible one. I love the idea of having a factor that makes not becoming an outlaw a challenge, both because that's how it would be in real life and because it would give the more casual "I'm just here to have fun" players and the "I must prove my worth as a man" hardcore crowd their own distinct methods of play, as well as the opportunity to endlessly bicker about it on the Internet (which we all know both sides enjoy as much as the game itself). Whether this is the way to go about it or not, I don't know. And maybe we never will until someone actually tries it.

This is why I wish it were easier for people with interesting game ideas to break into the industry. I'd like to see more games come out that experiment. The way Mirror's Edge did. The results may end up being terrible, but they're learning experiences for the designers and the industry as a whole as to what players are and are not willing to put up with. Companies like Valve and Epic* have done the world a bigger favor than they know by making their engines relatively open and nearly free for personal use; it's just a shame neither one has built-in support for open world mapping*, since both of Yahtzee's epic game ideas so far have been open world games.

*So far as I know.

Orekoya:

ModusPwnens:
"Players would have to be sure they were properly equipped before heading out of town."

Didn't you complain about this mechanic in Monster Hunter Tri?

Fattimus:
Wasn't it just two weeks ago that Yahtzee was saying how awful it was of Monster Hunter to "make sure you were properly prepared before setting out", and having "constantly decreasing meters" to be more realistic?

You have a very simplistic way of looking at things. I can make it simple.

Being prepared and well stocked before leaving =/= Having to go home every time you want to change equipment out that you are carrying on you.

It works in Monster Hunter, which is not set up as a sandbox game like RDR is. It's too easy to assume the other person is being too simplistic in thinking.

In RDR, you'd have to Fast Travel or ride yourself back to a town, if you weren't prepared for a mission. In Monster Hunter, if you find you aren't prepared for a mission, you can Abandon it -- Abandoning a mission in Monster Hunter sends you straight back to town, exactly as you were before you left. If you used up all your potions before abandoning, they're back. You don't get to keep anything you might have carved, but if you were being successful, you wouldn't have abandoned. It's not like you'd have to run, on foot, down a mountain, into town, change your armor and weapon, pick up flash bombs, and then run right back up the mountain. It was very easy.

If you haven't played MH, stop parroting Yahtzee. There's a reason the MH Extra Punctuation thread is so long.

I think that having more than 2 (3, at most) meters to worry about in a game would become a pain in the ass. I agree on what you said about what needs fixing, but on how to fix it... Bullshit. What you suggested there sounds just like something you'd whine about in ZP, just like someone else already mentioned here.

Yes, commiting crimes should be more tempting and useful. This would be simply accomplished by making the money worth something and make the crimes the best way to gather income. And how to make the money worth a damn?
-Take away the replenishing health and Dead Eye so buying supplies would be vital.
-Don't give away free ammo on save points (that felt completely out of place for me) and make enemies drop only like 1-3 ammo when killed.
-Like Yahtzee said, the respawning horses need to go (again, a stupid feature), which would force you to either buy a new one, steal one, or tame one (the taming should also be harder, btw).

As for having something to worry about in the wilderness when your horse is dead, maybe moving without a horse could eventually attract bandits that would rob you or kill you, obviously. And when you die, you lose half of your money (with autosave, this of course wouldn't be avoided by simply loading your save >:) ).

In all honesty, your first page was just bullshit and I don't really grasp it, the second however proved much more enlighting and interesting.

Either way, I don't like these meters because Sims already proved itself that you are not their God but rather their bitch. You have to tend to them everywhere you turn and games don't have to be too realistic for me to enjoy them. Makes me think of these flying realistic games where you have to monitor your fuel and make it back to your base quickly.

I don't like that, I want an arcade aerial fighter game where I can make stunts, enjoy and dominate the skyline. Realism is overrated, I escape to games to avoid realism.

Fattimus:

Celtic_Kerr:

Fattimus:
Wasn't it just two weeks ago that Yahtzee was saying how awful it was of Monster Hunter to "make sure you were properly prepared before setting out", and having "constantly decreasing meters" to be more realistic?

I think it was the number of meters that bothered him.
Hot/Cold
Sharpness
Health
Stamina
Many others in terms of items... Yahtzee is asking for a very simple version of it.

Health, Dead eye
Hunger, Stamina, Thirst

You still need to sleep, because that's saving your game, so building a healthy habit of that wouldn't impede you too bad...

But in the old west you can steal from others, wheras in monster hunter you're alone. So even ill prepared, you can rob your way through

Sounds like he's asking for even more complicated stuff than Monster Hunter. Hot/Cold was only present in area where the weather was extreme (deserts, snow tundras). Sharpness, Health, and Stamina are it... as opposed to what he wants, which is Thirst, Hunger, Weariness, Dead Eye. Sometimes MH gave you buffs like Attack Up or Health Up from eating meals before leaving on hunts... but those only went away if you died, they weren't timed.

Plus, you aren't actually alone in Monster Hunter. You can get NPC companions, or play online with others. You can *choose* to go it alone, but it's not forced.

I'm not looking to start another 800+ comment thread, just seems a little bit hypocritical to want features he hated two weeks ago. Sounds like it would make Red Dead Redemption an even bigger pain in the ass than Monster Hunter, by a huge margin. How fast would Hunger/Thirst deteriorate? Would you have to stop in the middle of combat to drink from a canteen and take a bite of some jerky before you end up missing way too many of your shots? How would that be any different from taking two seconds to sharpen your sword?

I suppose, though it was very odd to see people all around me dying of dehydration and sun storke and such while you can run around and do whatever... Perhaps a system where you must drink water three times a day, five at absolute most. I would run into little campsites all over and be invited to sit at them, but they never served a purpose... Maybe if sitting at one had the others offer you food and water...

I do know there was a massive amount of time between missions where you'd ride for a while, but I lvoed how spread out it was.

somebody email this to rockstar

Celtic_Kerr:

I suppose, though it was very odd to see people all around me dying of dehydration and sun storke and such while you can run around and do whatever... Perhaps a system where you must drink water three times a day, five at absolute most. I would run into little campsites all over and be invited to sit at them, but they never served a purpose... Maybe if sitting at one had the others offer you food and water...

I do know there was a massive amount of time between missions where you'd ride for a while, but I lvoed how spread out it was.

Well, that's sort of why people wear kind of heavy clothing and cover their heads in dry heat. The dusters and the wide-brimmed hats weren't just to look awesome, but they kept the sun off of your skin, too (although in the case of dusters, they ALSO kept the mud and dirt off of your clothes, except in games and movies, where everything is perpetually dirty and gritty). You keep covered and keep a canteen on you, stay near to towns, and you'll be fine. The people dying of sunstroke and dehydration lost their horses, weren't protected from the sun, and didn't keep water with them. The player, though, is constantly on a horse, protected from the sun, and usually within spitting distance of a town. It's actually not all that unrealistic.

Best opening sentence ever.

"In GTA, gaining a wanted level was this constant occupational hazard that came of doing the standard activities required of missions or just from being too incautious when acquiring the all-important transport, and escaping from the cops was an exciting challenge as you weaved around oncoming traffic and took odd turns to throw them off."

And that's a very good point.

The proposed solution is certainly interesting, but it would have to be employed carefully in order to work out as a net positive. We've seen this sort of thing get screwed up before.

This is simply reinforcing my tentativeness to get RDR. I hated GTA IV. Everything I've read about RDR makes it sound like a dicking-around festival with a bunch of bland minigames.

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