Red Dead Redemption

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Well, you know, that's what mods are for.

Oh wait...

I totally agree with the idea of a survival meter. One of the great things about Fallout was the idea you were surviving in that wilderness. Some people at work have said to me what's the point of pretending to be somewhere worse than you are now? My reply is that 1. I don't get to shoot monsters and you can feel challenged by a need to survive without the danger of really needing to and 2. I live in Liverpool so the irradiated wasteland of Washington isn't in fact worse.

Give it the stalker style of hunger , but add thirst too. In stalker you don't get a bar, you got a little icon. It prevents players from becoming OCD and filling it up every chance they have, and it makes it a lot more interesting when you aren't hungry until you're hungry.

"I'll just walk across- Oh Shit."

Wow a food/water meter is a SHIT idea. They're adding that to Fallout 3. WEEEE! Instead of shooting people and completing missions I'll crawl around in the sewers trying to find rats I can gobble down and instead of trading for a scope for my rifle I'll spend all my cast in non-contaminated water. Great, hurray realism. Now all we need is the character to limp all game because it was shot in the foot in the first five minutes, or the whole scenario becomes 2d because I ducked too fast behind cover and scratched my cornea. Want to heal? Park your character in the hospital for two weeks, real time. No guarantees either, that leg might have to come off, and you better hope the next mission has plenty of ramps.

No.

There's already a game that fits that description. It's called Oregon Trail.

ark123:
Wow a food/water meter is a SHIT idea. They're adding that to Fallout 3. WEEEE! Instead of shooting people and completing missions I'll crawl around in the sewers trying to find rats I can gobble down and instead of trading for a scope for my rifle I'll spend all my cast in non-contaminated water. Great, hurray realism. Now all we need is the character to limp all game because it was shot in the foot in the first five minutes, or the whole scenario becomes 2d because I ducked too fast behind cover and scratched my cornea. Want to heal? Park your character in the hospital for two weeks, real time. No guarantees either, that leg might have to come off, and you better hope the next mission has plenty of ramps.

No.

Well, first off, it's optional... they just include that in a "hardcore" mode that's not mandatory.

Second, it's Fallout. If things got that bad, go roll around in some toxic waste. You have a 50/50 chance of either dying, or mutating and re-growing that limb they hacked off at the hospital, and super powers to boot!

Sounds good actually, I really do like to do a bit of roleplaying in RDR and having to eat, etc. would be pretty interesting, as long as it wasn't obtrusive. The player should never have to stop mid-fight to grab a drink.
I don't agree though about not needing to break the law being boring. I for one found it quite refreshing that I could play as a good guy, (albeit a horrifically murderous one) and still enjoy myself, after all I've played the bad guy plenty times in other games, usually out of sheer boredom. In RDR I can actually play at being an elusive lawbringer, riding out to bring in bounties and defending the town from the occasional randomly generated criminal. Plus the police where just enough of a problem with the bounty system and all that I rarely went on a crime spree without carefully considering the consequences of my actions. Except for when it came to card players, cheating bastards, blackjack in particular can be unreal at times, which makes it all the more satisfying when you up and blow the smug smirk off of the card dealer's face, regardless of the consequences.
Where was I? Right, right, the food and drink thing. I think it could work, maybe it could be tied to the fame stat, if you were well known enough then people might give you free food, drinks, rooms, etc. out of either fear or respect, depending on your honour.
Also, the respawning horse thing. The first time my horse died out in the wilderness I felt a mixture of exhilaration and fear. There I was, far from civilization, vulnerable to predators and bandits alike. Would I dare try to hoof it back to the nearest town? Would I lay in wait, killing the next traveler I saw and stealing him horse, even if it would stain my own self imposed good guy image? Would I try to lasso and break in a new horse using nothing but a lasso, my wits, and the element of surprise? Then I absentmindedly whistled and my magical, reincarnating horse trotted up, thus ruining the drama of the situation and causing me to drearily ride back into town to be cheated by a slick card player who I would promptly kill.
Also, while I don't agree with the idea of non-regenerating health and Dead-Eye, I like the idea of health that would regenerate to a degree but still require medical supplements to get back to full. But a gunslinger shouldn't have non-regenerating Dead-Eye, sure unlimited Dead-Eye would make the game too easy, but it manages to regenerate at the perfect speed for me. Plus, it wouldn't make much sense if a hardened badass had to stop a take a swig of a magic potion every time he used Dead-Eye.
Wow, long post.

i believe his problem was

ModusPwnens:
"Players would have to be sure they were properly equipped before heading out of town."

Didn't you complain about this mechanic in Monster Hunter Tri?

i believe his problem was that once he set on a mission, he couldn't go back and change, unless he quit it

rapchee:
i believe his problem was

ModusPwnens:
"Players would have to be sure they were properly equipped before heading out of town."

Didn't you complain about this mechanic in Monster Hunter Tri?

i believe his problem was that once he set on a mission, he couldn't go back and change, unless he quit it

That's not really that different than having to go back to town in RDR, which is what you'd have to do if you left unprepared. Quitting a mission in Monster Hunter resets everything -- any potions used, items lost, items gained. It's as though you never left. And it's pretty much instantaneous, so if you forgot something, you just essentially reset the mission.

The survival thing sounds awful, I usually hate it when they implement systems like that in games. The horse recalling thing though I do agree is a problem, and would have made for a more interesting game if you had to nick a horse if you got stuck out in the middle of nowhere.

Thinking about it.... Despite one mission where you HAVE to get a wanted level... I've never pissed off the authorities in RDR. There just wasn't the urge to.

I don't care for the hungry meters and so forth. I guess a little is ok, I guess. But too much and in turns into the sims or a management simulation and that just gets tedious. It seems more like an attempt to be "realistic" and even the ones that attempt to be realistic are so far from it, because at one point you have to sacrifice realism for entertainment. Even America's army sacrificed realism for some gameplay balance and that was a free army advertisement.

Fattimus:

ark123:
Wow a food/water meter is a SHIT idea. They're adding that to Fallout 3. WEEEE! Instead of shooting people and completing missions I'll crawl around in the sewers trying to find rats I can gobble down and instead of trading for a scope for my rifle I'll spend all my cast in non-contaminated water. Great, hurray realism. Now all we need is the character to limp all game because it was shot in the foot in the first five minutes, or the whole scenario becomes 2d because I ducked too fast behind cover and scratched my cornea. Want to heal? Park your character in the hospital for two weeks, real time. No guarantees either, that leg might have to come off, and you better hope the next mission has plenty of ramps.

No.

Well, first off, it's optional... they just include that in a "hardcore" mode that's not mandatory.

Second, it's Fallout. If things got that bad, go roll around in some toxic waste. You have a 50/50 chance of either dying, or mutating and re-growing that limb they hacked off at the hospital, and super powers to boot!

Way to completely miss the point of my post

Oregon trail.... Oregon trail....

I happen to agree. Red Dead just felt...empty. There wasn't really much motivation to do anything except the next Thing in whatever Mission. Just a bunch of distractions. A decent place to play, but nothing you do amounts to much. I had basically the same inclinations that Yahtzee did, I want to take the RDR framework and build upon it, making my own rules to the game I want to play.

Getting rid of horse recall (i.e. Shadowfax summoning), increasing the (non-monetary) value of hunting, those are good ideas. I would also limit the amount of bullets you can carry so you might actually have to use your knife or lasso once in a while outside of hunting challenges.

ark123:

Fattimus:

ark123:
Wow a food/water meter is a SHIT idea. They're adding that to Fallout 3. WEEEE! Instead of shooting people and completing missions I'll crawl around in the sewers trying to find rats I can gobble down and instead of trading for a scope for my rifle I'll spend all my cast in non-contaminated water. Great, hurray realism. Now all we need is the character to limp all game because it was shot in the foot in the first five minutes, or the whole scenario becomes 2d because I ducked too fast behind cover and scratched my cornea. Want to heal? Park your character in the hospital for two weeks, real time. No guarantees either, that leg might have to come off, and you better hope the next mission has plenty of ramps.

No.

Well, first off, it's optional... they just include that in a "hardcore" mode that's not mandatory.

Second, it's Fallout. If things got that bad, go roll around in some toxic waste. You have a 50/50 chance of either dying, or mutating and re-growing that limb they hacked off at the hospital, and super powers to boot!

Way to completely miss the point of my post

I counter that if your point was different, you were the one that failed to express it properly.

Am I the only person that hated the mini-games in Red Dead (and GTA)?

I know for a fact that if they implemented in a game this survival mode all Yahtzee would do is piss and moan about it, in Mass Effect 2 they had the woeful planet scanning thing for optional in game rewards and that took the bulk of his "review". While the competent to excellent story writing warranted only a snide back hand complement. Really pushing the games are art agenda...

I love Yahtzee's Zero Punctuation and Extra Punctuation but would it kill him to actually act like a critic? According to his Bioshock review he cant because of his ratings I'm aware he has an obligation to The Escapist to be funny, but part of being funny is violating the audiences expectations and I site his Orange Box Review (In particular the Portal end segment).

A good example of a critic in a similar style would be Charlie Brooker but he manages to give a more rounded and intelligent review of the things he loves.

I would have settled for a health bar and ability to equip body armor like in "A Fistfull of Dollars" but yes, game should have had a harder edge. Great article!

Nah, that sounds pretty terrible. It would quickly ruin a very fun game. I like the fact that it's just fun. With survival meters it would quickly just feel like work.

I think I heard somewhere that Fallout: New Vegas is trying to build a "hardcore mode", like he mentioned, but I don't want to get too excited, since it will probably smack its head and die somewhere along the line.

The mistake here is to equate meaningful with fun. Metal Gear proved that commando crawling up to snakes and a gurgling tummy were not the true path to gameplay fulfilment.

Making foraging a secondary gameplay mechanic and tying it to filling your Dead Eye works for me. You can play the game without Dead Eye it but if you go the extra yard to eat you are rewarded with Dead Eye.

Now Horse Seduction would make an excellent game. It would also make for some funny deaths when a malnourished John Marston mistakes a hungry mountain lion for his trusty steed while on the verge of heat stroke

I haven't played this game, and it is likely that I never will. But the last comment just made laugh like an idiot. I was flying so high with the roflcopter that the Homeland security had to send jets to get me back to base.

I absolutely do NOT want a "survival" meters/mechanic implemented, that is a terrible idea.
Fine, it's more realistic, but I don't always want realism. Having to constantly tidy up my character is like having a dog, or more accurately, the Sims. You have to feed them, make them sleep, do all this micromanagement bullshit that has no place in the game and kills the fun. I could see someone halfway done with a quest or just wanting to roam about, and instead of being able to fully enjoy the experience, they have to break flow and nanny their character every five minutes to make sure they're not gonna drop dead. This is why at the very end of Dead Rising, the free roam mode sucked, because your health was ALWAYS depleting. And people just wanted to kill zombies, they didn't care about the "realism of the physical toll battle and mental stress would have on the character", WE JUST WANNA KILL ZOMBIES.
Some things are done to make the game unrealistic so they can serve the greater purpose of making a more engrossing game.
This is why health bars are gone, designers didn't want the players to be so focused on their health, rather, focus on the fun of shooting. And yes, there can be fun found when you have only 5hp and it's you against the world and the nearest medkit is across the battlements, but that applies to a too narrow range of gamers. Also, and more often that not, it can produce frustration leading to rage quits.
I get what Yahtzee is trying to say, but it wouldn't work. Maybe in a survival horror game, but not RDR.

**On an incredibly nitpick note,

missions very, very rarely demand breaking the law and there's no need to steal horses when you can recall your previous one at any time with one button

And that's why doing it would give you bad karma (so to speak), because you're doing something unnecessary (as well as breaking the law). Know what I do? I steal horses, kill them, skin, then sell them to the nearest town. I get bad karma because there was absolutely no need to kill the man or his steed when I could be picking flowers, killing outlaws, or doing quests instead.

[Your horse] get nicked by opportunistic Mexicans.

That actually happens, like, kinda often. But it is satisfying to call your horse back and have the thief either on it or jump off (which makes sense, horse recall really only is unrealistic when it comes from across the other side of the damn map), then hunting them down and slaughtering them like the dog they are before looting their body.

"Ooh ooh ooh, another great idea: some kind of "sexual frustration" meter, inviting you to make use of the prostitutes that already exist in the game. And if you're far from civilization, you could always seduce your horse, but you'd better hope the society papers aren't watching."

I was half expecting something like this at some point. >__>

ModusPwnens:
"Players would have to be sure they were properly equipped before heading out of town."

Didn't you complain about this mechanic in Monster Hunter Tri?

His argument back to that point would be that you could just go back to town if you forgot something in this game.

Of course blatantly omitting the fact that every mission you are provided any materials that are necessary to finish the mission. They are in a chest before you leave your base of operations in the mission zone.

But just forget that particular review, there was a vendetta going on that time methinks :P.

I am interested to play RDR, then again this review just makes me want to play oblivion again.

rapchee:
i believe his problem was

ModusPwnens:
"Players would have to be sure they were properly equipped before heading out of town."

Didn't you complain about this mechanic in Monster Hunter Tri?

i believe his problem was that once he set on a mission, he couldn't go back and change, unless he quit it

If he was talking about a weapon you'd be fucked, because not having a weapon and getting mauled by a cougar ends you (or being robbed).

If he was talking about any secondary items, they already existed in a box gift wrapped for you the moment the mission started.

You could only go back in RDR if you remembered before it became a vital issue, which is no different in MHT :P.

you just sold me a PC game, as long as theres a good modding team to do the job right (survival mods are pretty common these days, right? I know there was definitely one for fallout 3.)

ark123:
Wow a food/water meter is a SHIT idea. They're adding that to Fallout 3. WEEEE! Instead of shooting people and completing missions I'll crawl around in the sewers trying to find rats I can gobble down and instead of trading for a scope for my rifle I'll spend all my cast in non-contaminated water. Great, hurray realism. Now all we need is the character to limp all game because it was shot in the foot in the first five minutes, or the whole scenario becomes 2d because I ducked too fast behind cover and scratched my cornea. Want to heal? Park your character in the hospital for two weeks, real time. No guarantees either, that leg might have to come off, and you better hope the next mission has plenty of ramps.

No.

wow, what a bitch.
nobody forces this shit on you. if you want to be a baby and shoot mutants all day, theres an "easy" option. click it or man up.

Definitely would work, but only as a seperate game mode.

Then everybody's happy. Except the gimps who have to program/test it.

Though I haven't played RDR, I was under the impression that it was supposed to be like a spaghetti western video game. None of the survival meter shit would have made sense if you're trying to go for the feel of a Sergio Leone inspired epic. But then maybe we shouldn't make games that are achieving the same feel as such movies, as it would be impossible to do given the masterpieces that inspired the tone of such a game.

Also, as somebody else said: John Marston with a hooker? No thanks. That's not his style... he loves his wife and his family. That's the point of the game. Don't spray ridiculous ideas for the sake of it. It sounds like you don't understand the story if you say this.

A brilliant idea, one which would enrich most of these types of games.

If you are going into a wilderness, why not throw in a survival mechanism? Yahtzee already answered this - the casual gamer aspect gets thrown out. Bogun Bob doesn't want to come home from a hard day of dole-bludging to try to figure out whether he has enough food in his knapsack to survive a trip out into the mountains, or need to clean or repair his weapons - he just wants to kill things and get the base thrill out of the experience.

Imagine a game like Fallout, a wide open area with many spots of interest dotted amongst the landscape. Add in the gun mechanisms from Far Cry 2 (guns used more often begin to jam, and overuse causes a cataclysmic failure), the survival techniques from Snake Eater (hunt for food and medicine). Certain guns would be easier to clean but would probably be less powerful, and you would need to learn how to clean and fix them in order to get maximum efficiency. You eat what you kill, and use flora to heal wounds or boost yourself.

Some games (like Fallout and Oblivion) have mods which add these in. I think with some professional work, a game developer could definately work something like this into a top-rate game. They just need to stop thinking of gaming for 'quick fix' users and more indepth players, for people who want to enjoy the universe they are visiting, not just killing faceless sprites.

Simalacrum:
I do actually like the idea of the 'survival' thing.

While some people might complain "I want a game, not real life", a Western survival would be a real life that we don't know - and I think putting myself in the shoes of another life is actually quite exciting, just as living our lives for those people might be interesting for them.

Survival mode could be additional content/unlockable at end of game thus RDR would not lose the casual gamer market but at the same time would entertain those sorts of people who play pokemon with only 1 pokemon (well 1 other who learns the HM's).

The game could be more akin to the Survival mode in dead rising?

JohnTomorrow:

Snip!

I enjoy RDR just fine as it is, thanks. The game is about an open world with many things to do and a wonderful story and it delivers on both counts. Like it or not, a lot of gamers simply don't have time to be as hardcore as they used to be.

RDR isn't a quick fix kind of game, but it doesn't get bogged down on frankly stupid mechanics such as food and drinking. That's EverQuest 1 age mechanics for fuck's sake.

You are thirsty.
You are hungry.

Fuck that. It's about taking part in a world, not being reminded that you're playing a game.

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