The Problem With Twilight

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camazotz:
I've enjoyed both the video review of the movie and this commentary...I usually avoid the Moviebob column (at least until I've had a chance to see a given film for myself) but this was one case where I knew I wouldn't be seeing the movie and wanted to see what you're take was on it.

The only concern I can see over the views you are presenting, and specifically over the suggestion that this movie might define or influence behavior in young women, is that it seems to be the same error that conventional critics and the media in general makes constantly toward the movies and games so prevalent in our gamer/nerd culture. Suggesting that the women who enjoy Twilight will be inclined to develop anti-feminist, submissive and/or powerless roles against stalker/domineering males sounds very close (in my mind) the popular assertion that if I love to play Modern Warfare 2 then I must either be a gun nut, prone to violence in real life, or otherwise am easily influenced in some way for the worse. We know the people who make such assertions about our gamer culture are full of it, because we know that we, as people, are not so shallow, desperate for guidance and malleable that playing a violent game or watching a violent movie will otherwise change our very nature as people....so why are we assuming that the average Twilight fan is so gullible?

Because they are. I don't think it's fair to draw the comparison between the idea that gamers must all be potential school shooters and the idea that Twilight presents poor role models for women (and men!). One is being outed in the conservative-controlled media as a scapegoat for the social ills of today, while the other is being passively advocated by that same media. IE: they're not critiquing it, and by constantly chasing around Robert Pattinson and Stephanie Meyer they are further advocating that this series has a worthy place in our culture. No, the people saying that Twilight is a bad influence on people are on the underground.

Also, despite all the media frenzy over videogaming violence, no one really has any evidence of it causing people to turn violent. By contrast, Twilight actually has encouraged a disturbing trend to rise where dedicated fans (Twi-hards) will literally beat people up for expressing negative views of the book. It's no joke: a friend of mine told her younger brother that the sex scene in Twilight is borderline rape, and when he repeated that in school some kid punched him in the face.

I would not go as far to say that Twilight is turning people into Mormons, that's a very long bow to draw. But from what I have personally observed around my own friends, it is encouraging a certain demographic of women into believing that the way Edward and Jacob treat Bella is perfectly acceptable, indeed, desirable in a relationship. Say what you will, Twilight is not empowering for women. It's taken the appallingly misogynistic paperback romance genre out of the closet and into the mainstream, and is targeting it primarily at vulnerable young girls. That is not a good thing for anyone concerned.

Twilight.falls:
MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

Lord_Ascendant:
and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

snowman6251:
First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.

Seneschal:

Twilight.falls:
MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

Lord_Ascendant:
and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

snowman6251:
First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.

The Sims?

Very concise way to sum it up, Bob. Although I usually don't argue with 'messages' (trusting the recipient will have the good sense to think their way through such dross--- which, yes yes, maybe overly optimistic), I will agree that this message is rather nefarious.

The thing is, I think you missed the obvious connection, between the tenets of the muslim faith and the message that the 'Twilight' series presents. Not saying that Meyer intended it to be the case, but in many ways, you could argue that the role of women in 'Twilight' is actually closer to way 3rd world countries treat their women than what the LDS does.

snowman6251:

Seneschal:

Twilight.falls:
MovieBob speaketh the truth once more.

Lord_Ascendant:
and thats the Gospel truth, boys and girls.

*amen*

snowman6251:
First of all Moviebob speaks only truth.

Second of all, I'm not into men so I'm not necessarily the best judge but is the dude who plays Edward supposed to be attractive? I think he's ugly as fuck. His face is like, malformed or something.

Since MovieBob is an Avatar of Truth to you all, I'm anxious to know what kind of morally restrained gender-equal balanced videogames praising nonviolence, civiliziational values and the pursuit of peace in an orderly manner are you people playing.

The Sims?

And you think no one can construct a "why is it bad for you"-theory about the Sims? It's quite easy: god complex, manipulatory tendencies, over-reliance of complete control, seeing other human beings as puppets. Take it to Fox News and they'll make it a cautionary tale.

It'll also be completely untrue and I'm pretty sure you're not a socially-dysfunctional megalomaniac. Potter only made a few people disappointed when they turned 11. Modern Warfare didn't raise the number of gun-related crimes. Rock music didn't create an entire planet populated with decadent sex-crazed punks. Just because it's easy to bash on something as inane and cheesy as teen romance novels, doesn't mean we have to make up reasons as to why it's bad. And it's especially unusual seeing the MovieBob going all Michael Atkinson on it.

Seneschal:

And you think no one can construct a "why is it bad for you"-theory about the Sims? It's quite easy: god complex, manipulatory tendencies, over-reliance of complete control, seeing other human beings as puppets. Take it to Fox News and they'll make it a cautionary tale.

It'll also be completely untrue and I'm pretty sure you're not a socially-dysfunctional megalomaniac. Potter only made a few people disappointed when they turned 11. Modern Warfare didn't raise the number of gun-related crimes. Rock music didn't create an entire planet populated with decadent sex-crazed punks. Just because it's easy to bash on something as inane and cheesy as teen romance novels, doesn't mean we have to make up reasons as to why it's bad. And it's especially unusual seeing the MovieBob going all Michael Atkinson on it.

First of all I was joking about the Sims. Who actually plays that?

And second of all my point still stands that Bob speaks only truth because he addressed all this. He said its a slippery slope to be saying that the Twilight's message would actually lead to something happening in terms of the way women behave in the coming years. He does say that he doesn't like the message but never says it'll actually lead to anything. He says at the end that as crap as the message is, that's not what makes Twilight suck. Twilight sucks because its a poorly written, piece of shit story.

And that's what Bob says. And Bob is right.

I've read a lot about Twilight on these forums, and I rarely post, so I thought I'd just have to give my opinion on the matter.

First off: I am a 24 year old male whose only reason for ever even looking at Twilight in the first place was because of my girlfriend. To please her, and to also satiate my curiosity, I borrowed the books off her and read them all. Obviously, regardless of whether I actually like the books or not, I had to go and watch the film, too.

So, what do I think of Twilight? I'm neither an English teacher nor am I a philosopher but, if something can keep my attention enough to make me want to read/watch/play more, then it's entertaining. The Twilight series managed that for me. How good is it's writing style? I don't know, nor do I care. What I do know is that it worked for me, and like most good books, leaves you wanting to read more. To see what happens next. This has worked for nearly every book I have read, and whilst I've not read much that defers from 'popular' (Stephen King, JK Rowling, Tolkein, Koontz, Austen and more famous names...) I would certainly consider myself to be open-minded and experimental when it comes to reading material.

Whilst it was painful at first to read "His beauty made my heart melt" (not an actual quote, just something just as sickly), I quickly got over it. I realised that right here, was a writer willing to risk the wrath of so many horror fans by blatantly redesigning vampires. I both admire producing work that is by-the-book, yet completely unoriginal and excruciatingly predictable, but of such high quality to warrant not caring about it's originality, to admiring something 'revolutionary'. Now I wouldn't call Twilight revolutionary but Meyer definitely receives some brownie points from me for trying. On the predictability side of things, apart from the truly obvious (like Bella and Edward reuniting) there really wasn't that much I could have foreseen. Bob may call the Breaking Dawn plot ridiculous, but I thought it not only made sense (within the Twilight world) but also became quite dramatic towards the end, albeit a little over the top (read: gathering of super-power Vampires).

As for the films, compared to a few book>film creations out there, Twilight's run has been fairly good. The "I'm hotter than you" line, if I'm not mistaken, is just plain Hollywood tripe, slung in for maybe a cheap laugh or..something; either way, I don't think it's in the book and I will cringe horribly when Jacob delivers that line in the cinema.

Also, because it's late and I felt the need to write something: yes, like a few here, I think Meyer definitely did NOT intend for any of her books to be so utterly reverse-engineered to the point that critics like Bob have essentially crafted a conspiracy theory from it. That is to say, that young women across the world are being taught to find a man, marry him, THEN have sex.

To add on, when something is entertaining, why look too deep into it? Just enjoy it. We can't all be so paranoid to think that 'good' things actually disguise a deeper, potentially dangerous intention.

Then again, it's people like Bob whose job it is to look deeper into things in order to give us something interesting to read and to differentiate from the horde of other by-the-book critics.

Rant off.

Shamanic Rhythm:
I don't think it's fair to draw the comparison between the idea that gamers must all be potential school shooters and the idea that Twilight presents poor role models for women (and men!). One is being outed in the conservative-controlled media as a scapegoat for the social ills of today, while the other is being passively advocated by that same media. IE: they're not critiquing it, and by constantly chasing around Robert Pattinson and Stephanie Meyer they are further advocating that this series has a worthy place in our culture. No, the people saying that Twilight is a bad influence on people are on the underground.

There's a bit of goalpost moving going on here: whether something is lionized or demonized by the prevailing media, is that in any way a mitigating factor when we're talking about possible harm to the target audience? Not really. Drinking rat poison is never good for you, no matter how many media outlets endorse it. Anecdotal stories about school fights aside, is there any solid evidence that Twilight is anything more than harmless escapism for an audience that has long been ignored and marginalized by the entertainment industry? Again, not really.

There's an attitude amongst the anti-Twilight brigade that's more troubling than any subtext in Meyers' books: "You [Twilight fans] are not as smart as I am and you require me to be the arbiter of good taste and propriety for you," which is an ugly bill of goods to be selling young women, especially under the guise of trying to empower them.

This is a fabulous article, and goes so much deeper than the standard "well, it's bad writing!!!1!1" most people are satisfied with. I love you, MovieBob. :3

I read an article - possibly on the Escapist - a while ago that gave a singular defense of the Twilight franchise as the first sci-fi/fantasy title really aimed at women since pretty much the birth of the genre. I read the books "for science" - I wanted to have my own opinion rather than just feed off those of others - and as a lifelong sci-fi/fantasy girl, I had to agree. It made sense, but there was this fundamental problem I still had with the neo-medieval morality underlying the story. You've put this into better words than I could have, and I hope you don't mind me linking this around to everyone I've ever discussed Twilight with.

snowman6251:

Seneschal:

And you think no one can construct a "why is it bad for you"-theory about the Sims? It's quite easy: god complex, manipulatory tendencies, over-reliance of complete control, seeing other human beings as puppets. Take it to Fox News and they'll make it a cautionary tale.

It'll also be completely untrue and I'm pretty sure you're not a socially-dysfunctional megalomaniac. Potter only made a few people disappointed when they turned 11. Modern Warfare didn't raise the number of gun-related crimes. Rock music didn't create an entire planet populated with decadent sex-crazed punks. Just because it's easy to bash on something as inane and cheesy as teen romance novels, doesn't mean we have to make up reasons as to why it's bad. And it's especially unusual seeing the MovieBob going all Michael Atkinson on it.

First of all I was joking about the Sims. Who actually plays that?

And second of all my point still stands that Bob speaks only truth because he addressed all this. He said its a slippery slope to be saying that the Twilight's message would actually lead to something happening in terms of the way women behave in the coming years. He does say that he doesn't like the message but never says it'll actually lead to anything. He says at the end that as crap as the message is, that's not what makes Twilight suck. Twilight sucks because its a poorly written, piece of shit story.

And that's what Bob says. And Bob is right.

I agree, the message he states is shit. But let's not forget that he put more thought into it than Smeyer. If you ever stumbled into any of her statements, you might have noticed that she isn't exactly an academic powerhouse. The books became a phenomenon for the same reason people (mostly women) read fanfiction - it's "porn".

You'll be hard pressed to find a woman that regularly visits internet pornography because: a) not much of it is made for them, male porn being from a male perspective and gay porn being a little too gay despite all the men, and b) because instant sexual gratification just doesn't cut it. That's why erotic fiction is much more successful with female readers - it has relationships, emotional turmoil, dramatic tension that makes sex all the more significant. Stereotypically, women need sex in an emotional and social context.

Twilight is particularly suited for this. Just like it's easier to identify with Britney Spears than with an operatic diva (since the latter barely sings a little better than you), Twilight is approachable and full of it. In both senses - it's full of romantic back-and-forth, it's safe and non-threatening, it never goes into serious adult stuff and actually significant consequences, and has a nice fantastic element for the sex-starved female geeks to gush on. It's also full of crap, since like all porn, it amounts to nothing but cheap titillation and sexual fantasy. The abstinence thing actually emphasizes this - it's not that Meyer is a mormon and thus needs to be a killjoy, it's just that the female attitude towards sex holds it in a much holier regard than the male one, and sees it as the final expression of the emotional rollercoaster that is a romantic relationship. Twilight didn't make teenagers swear off of sex (because, SERIOUSLY, can any force in the universe accomplish that?), it just presented that fairytale scenario where sex is something that the entire world prepares for over the course of three books and a harrowing love story that makes it all the sweeter. You can blame DISNEY for girls liking that, not Twilight.

So, all the people screaming: "WHYYY? I don't understand why this is successful!" just haven't thought about it hard enough. The Twilight series arrived in the middle of an era where vampires were still sought after, bookish girls were at an age where sex and relationship become of interest, the youth culture grew increasingly internet-oriented and thus more connected, and there was an obvious lack of marketable genre fiction for the girl-tween-entering-puberty demographic. What I don't understand is HOW ISN'T THIS PLANNED? The entire phenomenon stinks of corporate effort to go along the tween music scene, Disney movies, fashion appealing to the teen goth/emo subculture and a lack of vampire fiction ever since Anne Rice's better days. One would assume a corporate exec though of this, but instead it's the brainchild of some random sexually-frustrated unknown. It's uncanny.

EDIT: Oh, right, I got distracted. Since it's romance-porn, essentially providing cheap thrills even if there's more substantial stuff to read out there, how is it any different from games? Or straight-up porn for that matter? Can one say that porn has rendered men around the world domineering, aggressive and eager to "cream some faces"? Well, perhaps, but I don't see the planet getting worse because of it.

my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

that and the writing is just crap

I don't have a problem with a woman who wants to wait for marriage, or even one that wants to be submissive, but it's like that video someone... SpecklePattern posted on the front page; she's not a character with those views, she's a shell with those preset views. If she had been her own character it would've been less of an issue.

But the other problem is the stalking acceptance. Just because a girl likes her man attractive isn't bad, I wouldn't condemn a man for the same reason, but if a buddy of mine was being stalked by a girl, I'd tell him he should confront her about what's going on, at the least. And if a friend of mine who was a girl was in the same situation, I'd probably say the same thing, though, to be honest, I'd go with her for support.

The problem isn't what Bella wants and what she does in her situations, but it's that she's so accepting of them, and leaves no reasoning. She acts "selflessly" by doing what Bob said, but the problem isn't what she did, it's why she did it and who she's doing it for. Neither of those guys are really right, and though no guy is perfect and neither is she to be wanting a perfect guy, I implore relationships that are good for one's health. Guy or girl.

I'm trying to be gender-neutral here by giving perspective of switched roles. I think I got my issue out.

MortisLegio:
my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

that and the writing is just crap

Worst assumption of them all. Are you even listening to yourself? How can a detail such as not upholding some nondescript vampire tradition (as if such a thing actually existed) make a book inherently bad? Giant robots aren't supposed to transform into cars, they should be like in the mute Metropolis movie. Wizards aren't supposed to have schools of witchcraft, they should go around tormenting Christians and being burned at the stake. Do you see how ridiculous it sounds now?

Not to mention that the novel that popularized vampires, Bram Stoker's Dracula, actually has a vampire that doesn't die in the sun, but he's weakened. And vampires receive similar treatment in a variety of legends.

I get the feeling that if in the tent scene the two guys had kicked the girl out and spent the rest of the movie, fucking each other in the ass, then it would have been a much better movie

Fearzone:
Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.

Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?

Great read, but I think you may be giving Meyer the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her religious background. I also think you missed the boat on one of the things I found creepiest about the series.

You were conspicuously mum on the nature of the preposterous turn of events regarding Bella's child. If memory serves me correctly, Jacob "imprints" on the child, essentially choosing her, at birth, as the one he will eventually marry. Meyer has Jacob describing it as akin to him being her "favorite uncle" until she's old enough. Then, of course, he gets to have her, since he can't have Bella. She'll age really fast, so she'll be mature enough for him quickly, so he won't even have to wait very long.

This marriage between factions will, of course, create peace between the vampires and the werewolves, so everybody wins!

This sounds an awful lot like a "sealing", a pre-arranged marriage between an astonishingly young girl and a much older man, popular in polygamist Mormon sects. It's like something straight out of Big Love. It smacks of pedophilia, the treatment of women as property to be traded, and many other creepy, backwards notions, some of which you mentioned in this article.

I never watched any of the movies, but I have read the first book, and being a boy, it was okay. I've read many better books, but for a chick read, it wasn't half bad. I don't know why so many people hate it.

Not G. Ivingname:

MovieBob:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article

Silly Bob! The Middle ages didn't have wars fought over a single woman. That is the stone age we are talking about! Hit girl with club and she is yours to drag to your cave! Get your history right.

To counter your argument "Helen of Troy" To a lesser extent one could argue the Spanish Armada war faught over trying to get rid of the girl...

and I agree that movieBob got it right, having read the books(shame) I found Bella more likeable in the first book, when she actually had personality, rather than being a clingly dependent blob of worthlessness, and saying she had personality is kinda tenious as it is nyoro~...

MortisLegio:
my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

You must have detested 1992's Dracula.

Mrhappyface 2:
I never watched any of the movies, but I have read the first book, and being a boy, it was okay. I've read many better books, but for a chick read, it wasn't half bad. I don't know why so many people hate it.

The first was the best one, but the grammer and Bizarre diction spoiled it somewhat... It was book two that killed it, and the later books aspired to that level of storytelling(and ended up even worse nyoro~) Book 4 might have revived it, the the stupid as hell ending murdered that one... not literarally sadly enough.. let me put it this way, the ending of Breaking dawn is the equivlant of Harry Potter and Voldemort standing seconds before the final battle, and instead of fighting, having a semi-heated debate then both going home, never to bother eachother again because their magically resolved their grievences...yeah

in response to the "Its just like FOX news talking about Halo" people, I think one of the biggest problems is that its set up with ordinary people with a twist that ultimatly has little impact on the story, os essentially, Bella, the arbitrary female role-model of the story, and arguablly a teen-aged girl in a high-school setting, is perfectly ok with being a submissive and dependant woman for the sake of "True Love" The kinda normal situation is far more realistic than "OMG aliens are killing us while China invades through Alaska.. TIME TO KILL B*TCHES!!! I'm not saying the argument isn't sorta valid, but what is more likely to effect the behavior of any person nyoro~?

To those who argue that I'm kinda describing anime here( and at least one person will) strangley enough, Female anime characters tend to be more dominant, and the men more accepting of their flaws (kinda better relationship no matter how you look at it) case study:Haruhi Suzumiya and Kyon, and Moka (both) and Tsukune from Rosario+Vampire, yes there are other things wrong in those, but the relationships are more balanced, and therefore, apply more to the real word than fetishistic school-girl uniforms or whatever...

Seneschal:

MortisLegio:
my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

that and the writing is just crap

Worst assumption of them all. Are you even listening to yourself? How can a detail such as not upholding some nondescript vampire tradition (as if such a thing actually existed) make a book inherently bad? Giant robots aren't supposed to transform into cars, they should be like in the mute Metropolis movie. Wizards aren't supposed to have schools of witchcraft, they should go around tormenting Christians and being burned at the stake. Do you see how ridiculous it sounds now?

Not to mention that the novel that popularized vampires, Bram Stoker's Dracula, actually has a vampire that doesn't die in the sun, but he's weakened. And vampires receive similar treatment in a variety of legends.

Yeah, today I watched Dracula has Risen from the Grave (1968), starring Christopher Lee as Dracula. In it an atheist stabs Drac with a stake, and the Priest that is with him says, "You have to pray or else he won't die," or something like that. So making up new vampire rules isn't anything new.

the antithesis:

MortisLegio:
my problem is that VAMPIRES ARE SUPPOSED TO DIE IN SUNLIGHT its like she took accepted vampire lore and chucked it out the window
vampires drink human blood and die in sunlight is that so hard?

You must have detested 1992's Dracula.

You must have really detested Polidori's "The Vampyre" where vampires aren't even weakened by sunlight.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/59697-sunlight-burning-vampires

I thought this column was hilariously funny. I am not laughing with the columnist. I am laughing at him.

But no biting - aka no sex - because then she won't be, well, for lack of a better word, pure. Because, as we all know, women are progressively worth more the less sexual knowledge they have. Oh, but he'll acquiesce on one condition: marriage. Once you're "my property," it'll be okay for you to be "sullied" - so long as it's by me and only me.
Where have I heard that before? Oh, right - the Middle Ages.
Whether intentional on the part of author Stephenie Meyer or not, Twilight amounts to a modern day, vampire-garnished resurrection of the patriarchal virginity worship that's characterized (and continues to characterize) some of the lowest and most shameful points in human history. Sexual desire - in women - is bad and must be tamed, controlled and owned by a husband.
...
The stuff that raises red flags about Twilight isn't new - it's old as hell, and that's the problem.
Patriarchal-omnipotence. The surrendered wife. Virginity as commodity. Female sexuality as something deadly to be controlled. Women being defined entirely by what sort of men lay claim to them. This isn't just anti-feminist, it's anti-female, period - and anti-modern and anti-individual to boot. This is bad stuff, and it's bad stuff that most modern cultures have spent a long, arduous time digging themselves out of. But like some kind of stubborn recurring cancer, here it is again

If you want to kill patriarchy, just allow no-fault divorce and give the woman presumptive custody. That will kill patriarchy and marriage.

It will do *wonders* for the manufacturers of Zovirax, though, because the herpes rate will go through the roof.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0923528620100309

About 16 percent of Americans between the ages of 14 and 49 are infected with genital herpes, making it one of the most common sexually transmitted diseases, U.S. health officials said on Tuesday.
Black women had the highest rate of infection at 48 percent and women were nearly twice likely as men to be infected, according to an analysis by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
About 21 percent of women were infected with genital herpes, compared to only 11.5 percent of men, while 39 percent of blacks were infected compared to about 12 percent for whites, the CDC said.
There is no cure for genital herpes, or herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2), which can cause recurrent and painful genital sores and also increases the likelihood of acquiring and transmitting the AIDS virus. It is related to herpes simplex virus 1, or oral herpes, which causes cold sores.
...
The CDC estimates that more than 80 percent of people with genital herpes do not know they are infected.

Yeah, get rid of that bad old anti-sex patriarchy. I'll be buying stock in pharmaceuticals and laughing all the way to the bank.

The whole vampirism = sex argument has some flaws in my opinion. Bob says that once they are married, it's ok for Bella to be "sullied." Then he goes on to say that after they get married Edward still doesn't want to take her vampire cherry but he does it because the baby is killing her. So it doesn't seem to me that sex after marriage is quite the same thing as vampirism after marriage. He doesn't even want to have sex after marriage he just caves in like all boyfriends do after their girlfriends pester them constantly for sex. Hey wait a second...

And wait a minute, or 59 seconds if you've already waited 1, some of the Cullens are ready to turn Bella if Edward won't. Edward's father was willing to take her "virginity" if Edward wouldn't. Isn't that weird? And Alice (Ashley Greene) would have taken Bella's(Kirsten Stuart) "virginity" too. Ashley Greene (damn sexy)and Kirsten Stuart (wouldn't kick her out of bed), is it time for rule 34?

Dr. Dan Challis:
There's an attitude amongst the anti-Twilight brigade that's more troubling than any subtext in Meyers' books: "You [Twilight fans] are not as smart as I am and you require me to be the arbiter of good taste and propriety for you," which is an ugly bill of goods to be selling young women, especially under the guise of trying to empower them.

On the other hand, there is a prevailing attitude among Twilight fans that because Twilight was a pleasurable read for them, it is somehow exempt from criticism. At no point do I ever tell people that they shouldn't read something: I advocate reading things and being critical of them. But no Twilight fan I've ever spoken to wants to listen to criticism. I actually didn't have an opinion on Twilight for ages and ages, I just figured it to be another fad. What finally drove me towards deciding I hate it were the way the fans all act like you HAVE to like it too. It's not about being 'smarter' than them, as you imply in your highly condescending post, because I can appreciate trash for what it is. Everyone has their own guilty pleasure. It's about a refusal from people in these camps to accept any kind of critical reading of their text, which is just childish. You can still enjoy the narrative and the language of a book even after you've identified any troubling attitudes in the novel: case in point, I love works like Heart of Darkness and Dracula despite their appalling racism and misogyny.

Shamanic Rhythm:
On the other hand, there is a prevailing attitude among Twilight fans that because Twilight was a pleasurable read for them, it is somehow exempt from criticism. At no point do I ever tell people that they shouldn't read something: I advocate reading things and being critical of them. But no Twilight fan I've ever spoken to wants to listen to criticism.

That's a fair enough point, and I kind of agree with you on it, but it speaks to the immaturity of the fan base rather than as a criticism of the books (or movies) themselves. You get the same kind of reaction when it comes to all kinds of male targeted, geek centric media, as well.

It's not about being 'smarter' than them, as you imply in your highly condescending post...

Glad to see the irony wasn't lost on you. In point of fact you did agree with the characterization of Twilight fans as "gullible," so whether you care to acknowledge it or not, there is an element of superiority and condescension in your position. Sorry if you find it condescending of me to point that out.

so to start off i am a mormon who also went to byu. we don't believe that women should be subjugated to their husbands nor do we believe that they are less than equal to men in any way. So i think it is probably just a female fantasy or whatnot that begat twilight. Besides how many of us guy nerds love things that most women find stupid or repulsive (terminator, star wars, most anime, the so called "sexist" james bond films, etc). i also don't think us guys will ever understand this twilight pandemic nor do i think that the auhor every really meant any of that. remember, this franchise was written for teens.

The author of these books has also written a novel for adults called 'the host' which isn't nearly as bad/cheesy/cliche or as poorly written as twilight so go easy on her.

i guess in closing you wouldn't want someone to bring up how strange or degrading to society GTA is so why not give these twihards a rest and 'let it be'.

Seldon2639:

For perspective's sake, though, is the "your life revolves around your life interest" any different from any romantic comedy? I mean, a review of even some of Gaiman's work would have some very similar undertones of female vulnerability, male heroism, ect.

Every form of media focused on romance is based in large part on the premise that "my life revolves around my love". I mean, come on, from D.N Angel and Full Metal Panic to Stardust, to John Cusack's extended resume, it's all about obsession (perhaps love) being the driving force in someone's life.

True, the male-centric stories tend more toward the deed of daring do, but even that's tinged by the "manipulative bitch" aspect; and if we assume that young men are just as empty-headed as young women, then the entire catalog of tropes in that genre are doing just as much harm.

How about we count it all as escapist fantasy, and assume that the readers (male and female) can distinguish between fiction and reality.

Having never read the books, but getting informed second-hand (not a good way to go about it, but I'll be damned if I could have slogged through them :P) I ended up coming to more or less the same conclusion as MovieBob here, simply on a very broad level. The difference was that, while I very much disagree with virtually all the series' implicit assumptions (and later conclusions) surrounding sex, femininity and all that jazz, much of the backlash against Twilight seems to be based less on that and more on the fact that it is the story of a girl (well... the story of things happening to a girl, maybe), and girls like it a lot.

If we saw a similar story with a male protagonist, it would be similarly ridiculed--although your arguments were very much to the point, the crux of the discomfort people feel with all this "your life revolves around The One" lies with Bella's complete and hilariously old-fashioned lack of agency. Of course, if it were a male protagonist we wouldn't be criticizing him for being a co-dependent limp noodle, but for acting like a... lady (for "the vulva is a void while the phallus is a presence"). And, of course, if it were directed to the male audience the story would not be so riotously popular, since the idea has little cachet with dudes in our culture. Thus the criticism would be correspondingly low-key.

Anyway, let me get back to the probably-controversial assertion that Twilight is hated so virilely because of its fans--not because its fans are merely annoying (annoying fans get plenty of hate no matter what!) but because its fans are females. This is where your arguments really take on merit with me, because there does appear to be a double standard.

Males get and love books with sometimes-dodgy moralism that is tailored to their particular programmed* idiocy, at least on the level of Twlight, and females get and love books with sometimes-dodgy moralism that is tailored to their particular programmed idiocy, yet it seems there is an immense upwelling of disdain and hatred for the "tweens" who love Twilight which has little basis in the reality of Twilight's effects. It is going to be little more than a speed bump in the vast majority of people's development, and it is hardly the end of our civilization as we know it. People forget that this is "escapist fantasy" and fail to realize "that the readers ([strike]male and[/strikethrough] female) can distinguish between fiction and reality" (apologies for mangling your words).

*When I say "programmed" I mean "things that culture dictates, marketers pick up on, and then the things they produce and how they market it propagates what culture dictates".

Oh and also i love you movie bob, keep up the great work!

Not G. Ivingname:

MovieBob:
The Problem With Twilight

It's more than just bad moviemaking.

Read Full Article

Silly Bob! The Middle ages didn't have wars fought over a single woman. That is the stone age we are talking about! Hit girl with club and she is yours to drag to your cave! Get your history right.

Actually medieval Kings often dispatched knights and soldiers to rescue princesses. They did this mainly to enforce treaties or to lay claim to dowries. No one went to war for love. I think they mention it in last vid but I included it all because I love history.


And don't forget

PhiMed:

Fearzone:
Social attitudes around sexual promiscuity and restraint do not progress in one direction but rather cycle back and forth throughout history. Just look at the Romans.

Suggesting that the fall of Rome was not kind of a step backwards for society?

Well yes it was, but remember that most of the concept of patriarchy in European culture came from Roman ideals. In fact in ancient Rome the act of sex was regarded as an expression of a man's authority over his female, or other male, partner. So basically in Rome sex was about power (or money) not love.

You know the best way to stop Twilight from spreading its terribly unethical message?

Stop. Writing. About. It.

I will say no more.

MovieBob:

Patriarchal-omnipotence. The surrendered wife. Virginity as commodity. Female sexuality as something deadly to be controlled. Women being defined entirely by what sort of men lay claim to them. This isn't just anti-feminist, it's anti-female, period - and anti-modern and anti-individual to boot. This is bad stuff, and it's bad stuff that most modern cultures have spent a long, arduous time digging themselves out of. But like some kind of stubborn recurring cancer, here it is again, tossed back to the surface by the combined might of amusingly well-coiffed vampires (who, for some reason, are apparently made of plaster) and very large puppies who are alternately a family of Native American underwear models. Of course, "cancer" is just my opinion. I'm sure there are folks who're positively giddy at the prospect of cultural backsliding - I mean, someone is buying Dinesh D'Souza's books, right?

They are old? Did modern societies dig out of it?! Don't be naive. If that's so, why are women less payed them man, why there is such small number of women in political roles, why the vast majority of countries never had a female ruler?! Why the US never had a female president?! Why are women the ones almost all the time sacrificing their carriers for child care?! Why is there so much domestic violence?! Why are women portrayed as sexual objects so much in fiction?!

As for the article, I still can't understand why are we still talking about Twilight if the escapists ate it so much?!

It exists. Everything else is superfluous when detailing why the series fails.

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. Yes you mentioned that Ms. Myers had put in conscious effort in including the virginity=goodness thematic elements, but even then, I don't that Twilight can have that much an effect that it need be feared. I mean it's no Malleus Malfeicarum, and these are not the Middle Ages when such literature will actually leave an impression--not in the face of such adversity in the media anyway.

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