Muslim Should Not Equal Villain

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Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

Saladin Ahmed:

Waif:
It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

Why do you assume that these hings are true of ALL Muslims, or even of a significant portion? I could post a link to the crappy Left Behind games and go 'Hey, these were made in America! Clearly, these reflect the way Americans in general feel!' -- but that would be dumb.

I never said "all" muslims are like this. It is true that I didn't say otherwise, but I feel you have read between the lines in a very incorrect fashion. I did speak, in terms of cultural biases within the muslim community. Biases that not all are bound to share (as you will find in America as well), however, they do dominate the overall climate of the middle east and is now affecting Europe. It is certainly a significant portion of muslims however, because of all the riots:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62118O20100302

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/muslims-riots-in-sweden-its-raning-stones-pm-reinfeld-extremely-serious-situation-an-attack-on-both-.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/uk-riots-in-dudley-muslim-gangs-attacking-people.html

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9d1tv_paris-muslim-riots_news

Just to post a few links. The reality of it is, if this is all the world sees. What do you think people will think? The fault is clearly not so one sided.

zipzod:
It's not really a racist or stereotyping matter. It's all about historical accuracy. If you have a story about WWII and the protagonist is American or English, then there's a pretty good chance that the villain will be German. This isn't saying that all Germans are Nazis.

Another example: James Bond. Why were there so many Russian villains? It's not because the writer hated Russians (maybe he did, maybe he didn't, doesn't matter). You have an English protagonist, during the Cold War era, so a Russian villain isn't out of place.

So, here we have games about modern American warfare. Currently in real life, American soldiers are at war with soldiers of terrorist groups. It just so happens that said groups consist of Muslims. War games tend to feature Muslim villains because the games are trying to resemble war in reality. If a game set in 2010 has a war between, let's say, UK and Indonesia, it wouldn't be realistic because no such war ever happened.

Then why is it that video games that allow you to play as Nazis and Soviets are common as grass, yet a multiplayer skin in the new Medal of Honor causes paroxysms in rage amongst politicians and gets banned by the U.S. military? Are brainwashed goatherds with guns really as bad as the people who calmly exterminated millions of people on the basis of genetics and planned to starve an entire continent to death? I remember seeing a game whose entire premise was leading the Axis to victory in WWII through the use of the high tech weapons that were in development late in the war. No Americans to be seen there.

Lawyer105:

Waif:
It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

This. Why is it such a big issue because it's about Muslims?

The Nazi's were bastards, and now the Germans are endlessly getting stick about it in virtually every shooter that comes out. You even get Nazi Zombies now. And they suck it up and move on.

Ditto for the Russians.

But Muslims? Nooo... can't do that. Their sensitive feelings might get hurt. Now keep in mind that those same 'sensitive' feelings:
- stone people,
- abuse and oppress women,
- rabidly denouce ANYTHING that isn't completely in line with THEIR religion (funny how they're allowed to criticise everyone else, but cannot be criticised themselves),
- call for murder on London and Amsterdam streets without getting arrested for promoting hate,
- commit terrorists acts,
and so on. Sure, it's not ALL of them. Many living in the Western world are just fine. But equally many are dragging their junk across into our world and stoning/honor killing people in Western countries now too!

So no. I don't have much sympathy at all.

When the 'moderate' Muslims are prepared to stand up and say "No! This is not acceptable!" and do something to stop it, then we've got room to talk. But the vast majority only ever go as far as "No! This is not acceptable. But I can understand why you're doing it, and even though I won't do it myself, I kinda support YOU doing it." and then do nothing to stop it.

Until they stand up to be counted, they can all bugger off.

Quoted for truth, though not sure why I was quoted in particular lol! This post covers many of the things I never said in my initial post. It is true that it seems that Muslims feel they can criticize anyone, but will not tolerate being criticized themselves. Thanks for the post ^~^! It's good to know that truth seekers are still out there.

Christ, I'll end this discussion:

- Every Muslim is a terrorist
- Every German is a Nazi
- Every Christian is a fundamentalist
- Every American is fat and stupid
- Every black person is lazy

Oh, I'm sorry, was I wrong? I thought we were generalizing? Or is a small group not representative of the whole?

Huh.

The Big Eye:

catalyst8:
'Muslim Should Not Equal Villain' is a laughable travesty of an assertion.

Anyone who condones rape, murder, & slavery (as any Christian, Muslim or Jew must do if they follow their 'holy' texts) is a despicable sociopath in dire need of incarceration.

I'm... not sure how you expect anyone to agree with that statement.

I think the point he's making is that most other religions have grown up with the times. By a literal interpetation of The Bible it can be argued that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" basically makes it a Christian duty to kill all non-Christians. It's important to note that in Christianity there are only two forces, god and the devil. God always identifies himself, so thus if your not following him, even if your worshipping a benevolent seeming deity or don't believe in Christianity, your actually a devil worshipper. The idea being that to "win" and get someone's soul, The Devil who is a great deceiver does not need to get people to murder babies or anything, simply to not follow God and accept Christ as their personal savior. Thus even if all of the benevolent new-age spin on Paganism was true back in the old days (it wasn't) it wouldn't matter since killing those people and preventing the spread of their faith (and thus dooming people who believed them) is part of your Christian duty. This is how a lot of the inquisitions and witch hunts were justified, a lot of people don't get the logic quite right in talking about it.

The thing is though that you don't see that practiced. The Pope doesn't put bounties on guys like Dan Brown for making criticisms of Christianity in his writing. On the other hand Muslim countries DO engage in this kind of thing, indeed there was a book called "Satanic Verses" that was critical of The Muslim world and the author and his publishers had a bounty put on their heads (by the Ayatollah himself no less). I am not kidding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses

Something people need to get through their heads is that we're not dealing with a lunatic fringe in "The Middle East". The entire Muslim culture is pretty far gone, just as bad as other religions like Christianity were centuries ago, but got over it. It *IS* possible to practice Islam without being a supporter of the entire xenocidal agenda, however the people who do so are not parts of the Muslim culture, and themselves represent the equivilent of a lunatic fringe.

In the US and other civilized western nations, we have a lot of left wing sentiment about how all people are the same, and have trouble as a society dealing with the idea that someone who is not fighting and just going about their lives within a certain belief structure and culture can be an enemy just as much as the guy firing an RPG. Largely because it's those guys who will respect the memory of a sucide bomber, or work to hamper pursuit and retaliation after an ambush (exploiting our morality where we will not fire on the "civilians" so if a crowd closes around a sniper, he can get away more easily). Our mentality being flawed by the way we have covered things like World War II, and tried to present the Nazis as some tiny fringe of people who oppressed all the paranoid, fearful, jew-hiding Germans, while somehow also having the manpower to conquer all these other nations with enough success where overconfidence lead to a losing multi-front war. We generally don't think of all the civilians killed in the "Volkssturm", the factories, farms and towns bombed out of existance and other related things.

The bottom line here is that the culture itself is based around theocracy and literal interpetation of the holy texts, with actual social policies in places around The Middle East where you have women being forced to marry their rapists, being stoned to death, and other things even when it doesn't come to their attacks against the rest of the world. Also incidently when they aren't trying to kill non-Muslims, they tend to try and kill each other over dogmatic differances, people underestimate the sheer intensity of a lot of Muslim on Muslim conflict, and how intense the whole Iran-Iraq thing has been without any outsiders involved.

Part of the problem is of course that we can't just leave them alone anymore, because with nations like Pakistan in possession of nuclear armament, and Iran developing it and threatening Isreal, even if we could isolate the area it wouldn't be a solution. Even if Isreal isn't nuked, it's only a matter of time before one Muslim faction goes nuclear on another without any other threat.

At any rate, this is long again, but the bottom line is that Muslims aren't being demonized by The West unfairly. The opposite actually, as we have a lot of people who are willing to defend them to a ridiculous extent and even lie in their defense as part of a "peace at any price" attitude (ie letting them get away with doing bad things is better than an all out war). The goverment hasn't instituted any kind of "War Powers" like was done during "World War II" to demonize the enemy and control infrmation. There is no goverment propaganda department trying to convince people that Muslims are bad. The fact that it took this long to start seeing negative portrayals of Muslims in some places (like games) despite the war is actually kind of disturbing. What's more for all the whining about the video game front, fairly recent shows like "Lie to Me" and others have had entire episodes dedicated to the whole "Muslims aren't evil" left wing schtick. What crying your seeing is simply because there is actually an anti-Muslim voice out there in the US that is becoming harder to silence after all this time, and it bothers some people.... and honestly after decades of conflict, a decapitation strike on the US goverment, and other assorted madness it's not like people don't have fair reasons for not liking the culture.

I mean honestly, an Ayatollah puts a death warrent out on an author and his publishers for writing a novel, the guy more or less running a united church and state, and causing the outcry of millions, and I'm not supposed to form any negative opinions about this? I'd be just as critical if we currently had Catholics putting death warrents out for Dan Brown, but it doesn't happen. Sure that paticular story had a happy ending (sort of) but it's one thing after another and continues on into today.

I refuse to walk on eggshells for fear of violence from an entire civilization of xenophobic religious fanatics. "Oh no, if we don't cater to these people, or watch our words they might blow us up or kill someone". Sorry, I don't want to share a planet with a time bomb like that. If it was just a radical fringe it wouldn't be such a big problem.

Saladin Ahmed:
Muslims in My Monitor

From Prince of Persia to the recent Medal of Honor news of playable Taliban, the depiction of Muslims in videogames hasn't been any more even-handed than American TV or movies. Saladin Ahmed is one Muslim gamer who'd like to see that change.

Read Full Article

"Jingle Bombs, Jingle Bombs, I think I got screwed! Dont laugh at me because I am dead or I will kill yooooouuu!

Lawyer105:

Waif:
It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

This. Why is it such a big issue because it's about Muslims?

The Nazi's were bastards, and now the Germans are endlessly getting stick about it in virtually every shooter that comes out. You even get Nazi Zombies now. And they suck it up and move on.

Ditto for the Russians.

But Muslims? Nooo... can't do that. Their sensitive feelings might get hurt. Now keep in mind that those same 'sensitive' feelings:
- stone people,
- abuse and oppress women,
- rabidly denouce ANYTHING that isn't completely in line with THEIR religion (funny how they're allowed to criticise everyone else, but cannot be criticised themselves),
- call for murder on London and Amsterdam streets without getting arrested for promoting hate,
- commit terrorists acts,
and so on. Sure, it's not ALL of them. Many living in the Western world are just fine. But equally many are dragging their junk across into our world and stoning/honor killing people in Western countries now too!

So no. I don't have much sympathy at all.

When the 'moderate' Muslims are prepared to stand up and say "No! This is not acceptable!" and do something to stop it, then we've got room to talk. But the vast majority only ever go as far as "No! This is not acceptable. But I can understand why you're doing it, and even though I won't do it myself, I kinda support YOU doing it." and then do nothing to stop it.

Until they stand up to be counted, they can all bugger off.

You guys put a bit more sauce on it than I would have, but I essentially agree with your positions. Muslims today are not black people in 1960s Alabama. Nobody is going to lynch you for having a different faith than they do. Even the silly tea party people won't do more than talk at you. Ok, so the talk gets heated, vitriolic, and often involves ad-hominem attacks, (much to the discredit of those engaged in this sort of thing) but it bears mentioning that causing offence isn't a crime.

On a similar note, ever notice how a character with a british accent always turns out to be the villain in everything? Are we offended? Yes, slightly. We just laugh at the silly americans who distrust us because we sound intelligent.

Sodoff:
I really liked this article, the guy has a point. Hell think of C&C Generals, if thats not a stigmatizing game I don't know what is

AK 47's for everyone

yea in hindsight that game was offensive to the point it makes you feel bad

Saladin Ahmed:
Hey folks. This is my first Escapist article after being a longtime reader. So thanks for all the feedback, both critical and supportive. A few points:

1) A number of people have pointed out that Germans, Japanese, Russians, etc. have also been stereotyped in games. Um. Yes. But I'm not sure how this makes things any better. "Other people have gotten crappy treatment" isn't really an argument for crappy treatment being ok.

2) Re: Mafia II and the Italian gangster stereotype: While this, too, is offensive to some folks, I think there's a pretty huge difference (as some here have pointed out) in being the HERO, even when the hero's a criminal. Nowadays when moviemakers want a mobster they rarely go to the Italian American stereotype (there's a reason Mafia II's historical). Usually now we get the Albanian/Serbian/Russian etc. mob. But while Niko from GTA IV is a criminal and thus fits this new stereotype, he's also the POV character, the one we're rooting for and controlling. We get the moving story of how he got to be the way he is. We laugh at what he laughs at, get pissed off by the things that piss him off, etc. That's a huge difference. Similarly, Altair from Assasin's Creed is a cold-blooded killer trained by a fanatical sect -- on the surface, a Muslim stereotype if ever there was one. But he's humanized and fleshed out b/c he's the protagonist. That's different than an endless horde of might-as-well-be-orc towelheads who exist just to be mown down and deserve it because...well, they're *bad guys.*

3) A number of comments seem to basically start 'Well, until muslims stand up and refute the extremists...' So let me ask you: if you're white, do you feel the need to constantly apologize for the actions of the KKK? If you're Christian, do you feel the need to constantly apologize for the nutjobs that bomb abortion clinics? If you're American, do you feel the need to constantly apologize for the actions of a few soldiers at Abu Ghraib? Probably not. (See http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2010/08/please-forgive-me-for-the-actions-of-extremists-i-have-never-met-who-commit-acts-of-violence-that-i-.html)

4) The idea that this is 'just entertainment' is both wrong and right. Of course I realize that most gamers are not so zombiefied that they totally confuse the images of gaming with the real world. I mean, even *I* played the *hell* out of Metal Slug 2 back in the day, blowing the little SNK Ay-rabs to kingdom come and didn't feel compelled to then go blow away my relatives. But anyone who claims that videogames don't have any effect on our culture, or that media doesn't help in subtle ways to shape our perceptions about who's a good guy and who's a bad guy is just not paying attention to reality.

3) It seems like the extremists are the face of the Muslim faith in more of a way than the KKK are a face to Christianity. If Muslims were to have a reputation for anything more than terrorism, then there would be much more divided opinion on the subject, but being as in the West there is very little Muslim based media that doesn't include terrorists it's difficult to associate them with anything but.

4) I think the video games have bad guys and good guys based on societies perceptions of who's bad and who's good, rather than the video games themselves influencing who we view as good and bad. Obviously they only reinforce it, but they are not originators.

Also, I've never played a videogame that has pitted you against muslims on the basis that they're Muslim, they may have pitted you against Muslims on the basis that the terrorists that the game is based off of were primarily Muslim, but there's nothing implying that moderate Muslims are an enemy of any kind.

Also, welcome to the Escapist, nice to see an intelligent article that I can get my teeth into.

It's sad the amount of people who just say 'get over it'. Easy for them to say. They are obviously missing the point.

Treefingers:
It's sad the amount of people who just say 'get over it'. Easy for them to say. They are obviously missing the point.

obviously, you are missing the fact that there's nothing really to do.Sure you can protest but that won't really help.As long as they make games which have human villains,whatever race that person is people will say it's racist.Not all games get the same amount of racism accusment as others but people will say it.Even if we make aliens as the bad guys someday we'll find aliens and people will say it's racist.Racism is the #1 topic of discussion in the majority of the world right next to economy,war,and Justin Beiber.

I am not sure if this is mentioned or not. AREAS are used as villians not a people. The Taliban are a group of Muslims YES. The Nazis were German YES. When people realize that the Taliban is not seen as Muslims as a whole that is when we will not get things like this. The part that gets me more than people complaining about playing as the Taliban is that there was almost 0 controversy surrounding Opfor which we all know as the Taliban but is just a random Muslim extremist group. The reason people don't get pissed about playing as Nazis is because A) It happened a whole ago and B) It is widely accepted knowledge that the Nazis are not Germans as a whole.

Prince of Persia...

Before Common Era Persian Empire = Muslim?
Islam = Founded 622 C.E.

I HOPE this is a troll topic...

I really don't understand this, when is it valid for Muslims to be antagonists then?

How many White christian Americans are portrayed as protagonists in Middle Eastern/Muslim Majority countries? Chinese media? It's an unrealistic expectation to write in foreign characters as protagonists, much less from traditionally rival nations. I doubt their depictions of us are any less negative. This is not an issue either, it's natural.

Metal Slug 2 was developed by a bunch of Japanese guys in 1998 yet is being cast in some alleged wave of American racism. Despite the fact the main enemies are soldiers of some generic foreign dictator, more European than anything. It's a laughable to suggest it's an example of malicious racism.

Also there's this sneaky tendency to make Muslims some monolithic collective race yet attack any criticism of Islam or Muslim as being too generalizing/racist.

Honestly, I think people should be given more credit than this, not everyone forms their perception of the world through the media or looks to video games for social commentary.

Its not really a big deal. The Russians, Germans, South Americans, Pirates, and other Americans have always been bad guys too. Every nationality and religion has pretty much been portraid as evil, but I guess the Russians just have a better sense of humor about always being portraid as super evil communist invaders

maturin:

Then why is it that video games that allow you to play as Nazis and Soviets are common as grass, yet a multiplayer skin in the new Medal of Honor causes paroxysms in rage amongst politicians and gets banned by the U.S. military? Are brainwashed goatherds with guns really as bad as the people who calmly exterminated millions of people on the basis of genetics and planned to starve an entire continent to death? I remember seeing a game whose entire premise was leading the Axis to victory in WWII through the use of the high tech weapons that were in development late in the war. No Americans to be seen there.

You're right. In reality, it's not fair to allow depicting some murderers while censoring others.
The reason for the backlash is because war against Muslim terrorists is present day, whereas war against Nazis is past. We've already dealt with the problem of Nazi ideology and Nazi soldiers. Most Germans acknowledge the wrongdoings of the Axis powers and understand if you want Nazis to be seen as the bad guys. But radical Islam is a current issue and therefore it is currently more sensitive to the public.

ICanBreakTheseCuffs:

Treefingers:
It's sad the amount of people who just say 'get over it'. Easy for them to say. They are obviously missing the point.

obviously, you are missing the fact that there's nothing really to do.Sure you can protest but that won't really help.As long as they make games which have human villains,whatever race that person is people will say it's racist.Not all games get the same amount of racism accusment as others but people will say it.Even if we make aliens as the bad guys someday we'll find aliens and people will say it's racist.Racism is the #1 topic of discussion in the majority of the world right next to economy,war,and Justin Beiber.

That's a cop out if i ever heard one.

But even if you believe nothing can be done about it, do you at least acknowledge that it's a problem? Some say 'get over it' as if it's not an issue, which is what I find depressing.

Saladin Ahmed:

squiggothhunter:
Maybe their wouldn't be backlash if extremist dictators didn't rule nearly every damn country in the Middle East.

And the ground zero mosque? How is that Islamaphobic? An unnecessary and unpaid for mosque is being built near a site of muslim extremists attack on American soil. And its a Cordoba mosque, the thing muslims build when they declare a victory.

A) Sooo because there are dictators (half of them American-supported) in the Middle East, random cabbies and regular people -- some of whom came here to flee said dictators, some of whom were born here -- should expect to get knifed and have their houses of worship bombed? Nice logic!

B) Um, I didn't bring up the ISLAMIC CENTER (not a mosque) that is FOUR LONG NEW YORK BLOCKS FROM (not 'at') Ground Zero. This is an article post about video games. But FWIW I live in New York and actually dealt with 9/11 in the real world. I thought my friends might have been killed, and my dad thought I might have been. My (incidentally Arab) friend's dad was murdered in those attacks. So I don't need to be lectured yet again about an 'attack on American soil' that all the armchair patriots watched on TV.

C) "its a Cordoba mosque, the thing muslims build when they declare a victory." Umm, hunh? This is...just totally wrong. There's no such thing as 'a cordoba mosque' -- the phrase doesn't even make sense. Cordoba was a *city.* Where are you getting your info? Don't believe everything you hear on tv or read on the internet...

Your right about C, i was ignorant.

B i take offense at. Why am I an armchair patriot? Because im offended that muslim fundamentalists killed thousands?

And no a cab driver shouldnt get stabbed in the face because some foreign dictator hates americans. But what happens to christians and jews in Islamic countries? I simply dont have any sympathy. They should be persecuted to the full extent of the law, but I can understand why theyre so enraged at the same time.

By the way could you give your opinion on the drawing mohammed debate? I would really like to understand a moderate American muslims view on the situation of Free speech vs offending a culture

Treefingers:

ICanBreakTheseCuffs:

Treefingers:
It's sad the amount of people who just say 'get over it'. Easy for them to say. They are obviously missing the point.

obviously, you are missing the fact that there's nothing really to do.Sure you can protest but that won't really help.As long as they make games which have human villains,whatever race that person is people will say it's racist.Not all games get the same amount of racism accusment as others but people will say it.Even if we make aliens as the bad guys someday we'll find aliens and people will say it's racist.Racism is the #1 topic of discussion in the majority of the world right next to economy,war,and Justin Beiber.

That's a cop out if i ever heard one.

But even if you believe nothing can be done about it, do you at least acknowledge that it's a problem? Some say 'get over it' as if it's not an issue, which is what I find depressing.

well yes I do acknowledge it as a problem but when there's a problem with no solution,it's like a storm,you have to deal with it.You can't destroy storms,you can only run from them.

Why does every single piece of media have to be invariably treated as a political statement? Truly, in a world full of adults instead of overgrown teenagers, one could make a game or movie that portrays Nazis as the good guys and no one would get offended.

This subject can be argued over to the moon and back but it will never change the fact that any video game will always remain just a video game, and if someone interprets Manhunt as a license to kill people then the problem lies with remarkably unintelligent human beings and not in entirely fictional works of interactive media.

As for Muslims, they're simply yet to swallow the fact that if you live in the Western world, you'll get mocked and picked on for doing stupid things and you will get criticised when you do something destructive. An offended Muslim is as common as grains of sand and just like the blacks who complain about RE5's supposed racism--another completely bullshit issue--it's based on nothing other than a false assumption that you have a right to not be offended and that the entire world must cater for your embarrassingly juvenile inability to accept other viewpoints than your own.

I eagerly await Saladins responses to the more valid of the criticisms throughout this thread.

May I just point out that your argument as to why the German/Korean/Russian demonisation is not your concern is itself racist.

Do YOU need to save muslims from this demonisation/fair representation simply because you're muslim? Why not argue against all stereotypes? I guess it all comes down to whether you're being self-serving or lacking in scope.

Therumancer:

The Big Eye:

catalyst8:
'Muslim Should Not Equal Villain' is a laughable travesty of an assertion.

Anyone who condones rape, murder, & slavery (as any Christian, Muslim or Jew must do if they follow their 'holy' texts) is a despicable sociopath in dire need of incarceration.

I'm... not sure how you expect anyone to agree with that statement.

I think the point he's making is that most other religions have grown up with the times. By a literal interpetation of The Bible it can be argued that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" basically makes it a Christian duty to kill all non-Christians. It's important to note that in Christianity there are only two forces, god and the devil. God always identifies himself, so thus if your not following him, even if your worshipping a benevolent seeming deity or don't believe in Christianity, your actually a devil worshipper. The idea being that to "win" and get someone's soul, The Devil who is a great deceiver does not need to get people to murder babies or anything, simply to not follow God and accept Christ as their personal savior. Thus even if all of the benevolent new-age spin on Paganism was true back in the old days (it wasn't) it wouldn't matter since killing those people and preventing the spread of their faith (and thus dooming people who believed them) is part of your Christian duty. This is how a lot of the inquisitions and witch hunts were justified, a lot of people don't get the logic quite right in talking about it.

The thing is though that you don't see that practiced. The Pope doesn't put bounties on guys like Dan Brown for making criticisms of Christianity in his writing. On the other hand Muslim countries DO engage in this kind of thing, indeed there was a book called "Satanic Verses" that was critical of The Muslim world and the author and his publishers had a bounty put on their heads (by the Ayatollah himself no less). I am not kidding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses

Something people need to get through their heads is that we're not dealing with a lunatic fringe in "The Middle East". The entire Muslim culture is pretty far gone, just as bad as other religions like Christianity were centuries ago, but got over it. It *IS* possible to practice Islam without being a supporter of the entire xenocidal agenda, however the people who do so are not parts of the Muslim culture, and themselves represent the equivilent of a lunatic fringe.

In the US and other civilized western nations, we have a lot of left wing sentiment about how all people are the same, and have trouble as a society dealing with the idea that someone who is not fighting and just going about their lives within a certain belief structure and culture can be an enemy just as much as the guy firing an RPG. Largely because it's those guys who will respect the memory of a sucide bomber, or work to hamper pursuit and retaliation after an ambush (exploiting our morality where we will not fire on the "civilians" so if a crowd closes around a sniper, he can get away more easily). Our mentality being flawed by the way we have covered things like World War II, and tried to present the Nazis as some tiny fringe of people who oppressed all the paranoid, fearful, jew-hiding Germans, while somehow also having the manpower to conquer all these other nations with enough success where overconfidence lead to a losing multi-front war. We generally don't think of all the civilians killed in the "Volkssturm", the factories, farms and towns bombed out of existance and other related things.

The bottom line here is that the culture itself is based around theocracy and literal interpetation of the holy texts, with actual social policies in places around The Middle East where you have women being forced to marry their rapists, being stoned to death, and other things even when it doesn't come to their attacks against the rest of the world. Also incidently when they aren't trying to kill non-Muslims, they tend to try and kill each other over dogmatic differances, people underestimate the sheer intensity of a lot of Muslim on Muslim conflict, and how intense the whole Iran-Iraq thing has been without any outsiders involved.

Part of the problem is of course that we can't just leave them alone anymore, because with nations like Pakistan in possession of nuclear armament, and Iran developing it and threatening Isreal, even if we could isolate the area it wouldn't be a solution. Even if Isreal isn't nuked, it's only a matter of time before one Muslim faction goes nuclear on another without any other threat.

At any rate, this is long again, but the bottom line is that Muslims aren't being demonized by The West unfairly. The opposite actually, as we have a lot of people who are willing to defend them to a ridiculous extent and even lie in their defense as part of a "peace at any price" attitude (ie letting them get away with doing bad things is better than an all out war). The goverment hasn't instituted any kind of "War Powers" like was done during "World War II" to demonize the enemy and control infrmation. There is no goverment propaganda department trying to convince people that Muslims are bad. The fact that it took this long to start seeing negative portrayals of Muslims in some places (like games) despite the war is actually kind of disturbing. What's more for all the whining about the video game front, fairly recent shows like "Lie to Me" and others have had entire episodes dedicated to the whole "Muslims aren't evil" left wing schtick. What crying your seeing is simply because there is actually an anti-Muslim voice out there in the US that is becoming harder to silence after all this time, and it bothers some people.... and honestly after decades of conflict, a decapitation strike on the US goverment, and other assorted madness it's not like people don't have fair reasons for not liking the culture.

I mean honestly, an Ayatollah puts a death warrent out on an author and his publishers for writing a novel, the guy more or less running a united church and state, and causing the outcry of millions, and I'm not supposed to form any negative opinions about this? I'd be just as critical if we currently had Catholics putting death warrents out for Dan Brown, but it doesn't happen. Sure that paticular story had a happy ending (sort of) but it's one thing after another and continues on into today.

I refuse to walk on eggshells for fear of violence from an entire civilization of xenophobic religious fanatics. "Oh no, if we don't cater to these people, or watch our words they might blow us up or kill someone". Sorry, I don't want to share a planet with a time bomb like that. If it was just a radical fringe it wouldn't be such a big problem.

My only criticism of your argument is that this is typically more to do with Arabic musilms (which the OP has decided are all musilms) than the huge number of Indonesian Musilms that exist.

OuroborosChoked:

Whytewulf:

OuroborosChoked:

And before anybody says I'm discriminating by blaming certain groups, consider this: just because you can see a river doesn't mean you hate water.

Why blame any groups.. It's a person's decision. Just like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Geez, Hypocrasy at it's best. Most Republican Christians are just like Democratic Christians that are like Jewish independents, like the Buddist (I ran out of sides)... 99% of this country just wants to get along with their peaceful day. The politicians and media on all sides spark the fires.

Ok, perhaps you'll understand an allegory instead: You see a car intentionally collide with another car on a highway. The car that caused the accident happened to have either a Jesus fish, a Fox News bumper sticker, or a McCain/Palin 08 bumper sticker, but the driver of that car was otherwise a non-specific whitey. The driver of the other car looked vaguely Middle Eastern.

Merely observing that the guy who caused the accident had at least one of those three items on his car doesn't mean you hate the guy.

However, you ask "why blame any groups?" Because some groups are directly responsible. Specifically, the mosque thing wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't for right-wing reactionaries in the "blogosphere" looking for any anti-Muslim cause and the right-wing media networks (newspaper editorial writers, talk radio, and again, Fox News) that pick up on these trivial issues and give them what looks like credibility.

Why the increase in violence recently? ^ Pretty much that ^

Also, English isn't your first language, is it?

Are you seriously criticizing my online forum typing skills? That doesn't add any credence to your argument. My point, which you ignored or misunderstood, was that the MAJORITY of any group has no specific agenda, only to enjoy life peacefully. The outliers and fringe groups get the headlines. And CNN, Fox, NY Times, the local college paper expounds upon it and makes it more news worthy than it should be in most cases. Why I say its hypocrisy is that you are doing the same thing, assuming all republicans are Christians, all Christians are republicans, all listen to Fox news, and all hate Muslims. What I am tired of is titles; it's the character of the man that's important. His actions are most important, not his title, his church, or his party.

As for this article, I understand it's point, but most people who buy the games don't care. Let's be bigger than the headlines.

My opinion on this: it's kind of silly to not expect media to have ideological baddies. They're the bread and butter of interesting stories. But that said, there are two other important points in this.

Firstly, you have to accept that everyone's on an equal playing field. Especially in a video game where you're barely concerned about plot while you're going around shooting people, it really shouldn't be that big an issue to be able to play as a different sect of people going around shooting others. And if you can get a medium that's able to reason and discuss real-world issues by inserting us into the lives of people on the other side, all it does is give a little more morality in the world, so we only have to shoot people in video games and not real life.

But secondly, you have to accept that there are current issues here. Because of other media, muslims are a very heavily stereotyped group and get tooonnes of stick in real life. So game developers, as well as other artists, should be careful that they don't further demonize a group that's already being stereotyped the hell out of these days. Storytelling media should instead work to further human morality, by showing that there's a very large grey zone here, not just west = good, muslims = bad. Even if it's purely to move the story along, it can help to create a stigma against that group in the bigger scheme of things.

And now I bid you farewell to continue the flaming.

btw, Saladin's a sick name. I wish I was named Saladin.

stinkychops:

My only criticism of your argument is that this is typically more to do with Arabic musilms (which the OP has decided are all musilms) than the huge number of Indonesian Musilms that exist.

I've written several messages on the subject, so apologies for probably missing this bit in that last message.

I consider "Muslim" to refer to a very specific culture despite how many people use it. I think someone can follow Islam or be born an Arab without being part of that meta-culture, though for whatever reason most Islamics want to claim membership.

To my way of thinking, I think religion can be practiced without infringing on anyone else. In the US for example you can't tell what religion someone is just by looking at them in most cases. I'm a Christian for example (though not a very spiritual one) but your not going to know that just by looking at me.

I've also met, and worked with, numerous Islamics, Jews, Wiccans, and others who were the same way. Only learning about their faith if it came up in conversation.

For a society to be healthy I think there needs to be a solid seperation of church and state, and whatever you may believe it should remain a personal matter. When it starts to infringe on someone else, or society in general it's a problem. Especially when that turns violent.

To put things into perspective probably the worst "mainstream" problem the US has had with religion in recent memory is a church run by a guy named Fred Phelps who likes to raid people's funerals and stuff for his own Agenda. He is however not violent, and due to his behavior the system itself is in the process of shutting him down for his behavior.

Do Indonesian Islamics have a seperation of church and state? How violent are they on religious grounds? Is there likely to be an issue if one came to the US and had to follow a dress code like everyone else to hold a job?

I admit some of the details do make me seem a bit picky, but understand I'm tired of the entire situation. I've known people who are perfectly comfortable with their faith while keeping it private and behaving in a socially acceptable manner, which is why I make a distinction. That's how it should be to me.

At any rate if the portrayal of Muslims in the media in general bothers people who are simply Islamic they should understand specifically who is being talked about by the behavior and the real examples. What's more in a given storyline for a book, game, or movie there is no real point in having a character show up to make a point about being a more laid back Islamic. I mean if you DID have a terrorist invasion going on by some of these guys who plan them (albiet in a format that makes it more gamable) it's not like everyone is going to put down their guns and stop to engage in small talk with some dude who wanders by for no other person than to explain that there are other *comparitively* small groups of Islamics who don't act like that.

What's more, for all we know most of the characters in the backround are generic enough where you have no way of knowing none of them aren't Americanized Islamics since by and large most Americans don't go running around advertising their faith.

What's more most Americans tend to just ignore it when someone insults their faith or it's conventions. I might not agree with it, but I'm hardly going to freak out on someone for playing Satanic Black Metal or whatever. Heck, I'm open minded enough and believe god is benevolent enough where he doesn't mind fantasy that is understood to be fantasy, with some of the games I play heavily like the "Shin Megami Tensei" series that should be fairly obvious. Maybe not everyone is that open minded, but you can choose to ignore things (even if you don't consume them) rather than making a point about it.

I think a lot of it starts with people realizing that whatever god they worship is benevolent at least to them. That is typically the entire point of religion. A deity who is going to do unspeakable things to you for shaving or not wearing a fancy hat and makes commandments can't really be considered a good guy... see where I'm coming from? I'm just not nilistic enough to believe that there is no good in the universe and that the only way to not come to a bad end is to conform to the whims of some celestrial tyrant.

Waif:

Lawyer105:

Waif:
It is true that Muslims have been in a bad light (not near as much as Nazi's or Russians lol). However, Muslims have been attacking American values for just as long. Even today we can see hate speeches from Islamic leaders citing violence against Americans, and their way of life. I'm afraid I can't feel sympathetic towards a culture that hates democracy, it's values, and it's people. Also, they hate Jews with such a passion that it makes Nazi's look conservative. This is common knowledge, and also this:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.229799-Iran-Publishes-Anti-Israel-Videogames

Sorry, I'm just not buying that it is Muslims who are the real victims here. Of course, this is a matter of opinion.

This. Why is it such a big issue because it's about Muslims?

The Nazi's were bastards, and now the Germans are endlessly getting stick about it in virtually every shooter that comes out. You even get Nazi Zombies now. And they suck it up and move on.

Ditto for the Russians.

But Muslims? Nooo... can't do that. Their sensitive feelings might get hurt. Now keep in mind that those same 'sensitive' feelings:
- stone people,
- abuse and oppress women,
- rabidly denouce ANYTHING that isn't completely in line with THEIR religion (funny how they're allowed to criticise everyone else, but cannot be criticised themselves),
- call for murder on London and Amsterdam streets without getting arrested for promoting hate,
- commit terrorists acts,
and so on. Sure, it's not ALL of them. Many living in the Western world are just fine. But equally many are dragging their junk across into our world and stoning/honor killing people in Western countries now too!

So no. I don't have much sympathy at all.

When the 'moderate' Muslims are prepared to stand up and say "No! This is not acceptable!" and do something to stop it, then we've got room to talk. But the vast majority only ever go as far as "No! This is not acceptable. But I can understand why you're doing it, and even though I won't do it myself, I kinda support YOU doing it." and then do nothing to stop it.

Until they stand up to be counted, they can all bugger off.

Quoted for truth, though not sure why I was quoted in particular lol! This post covers many of the things I never said in my initial post. It is true that it seems that Muslims feel they can criticize anyone, but will not tolerate being criticized themselves. Thanks for the post ^~^! It's good to know that truth seekers are still out there.

I agree with both Lawyer105 and Waif, that all to often people simply dismiss some peoples justified reactions, by simply saying they mean to generalize a people when that's not it. I believe that a large portion of muslims are very honest, good people. That doesn't mean that there isn't a portion out there that demean women's rights or stone people for crimes that would be laughable here in the western world.

That some would threaten death upon anyone who dare draw a critical finger at their religion, as they would do to others. Not to mention the whole Mohammed controversy over his appearance in South Park. Everyone remembers the death threats that they received, or the draw mohammed day founder who received dozens of threats.

the only issue here is because muslims don't come from any one country and thats the only reason to complain in my eyes

the russians still get a bad go as villians (Salt is a good example)

the problem here is that when its relegated to a country its a government on behalf of thier people normally

the issue here is that you have a section of the muslim population going out and blowing shit up

and thier is no way to differentiate between those that are and those that arent

its one of the issues when someone decides to wage a holy war

the violence and religion is combined in a way that hasn't really been in the modern age

In an FPS you only visit the bad parts of the world IE the ones with the terrorist muslims so its kinda hard to show both sides of the coin

Theninja'skatana:

The Big Eye:

catalyst8:
'Muslim Should Not Equal Villain' is a laughable travesty of an assertion.

Anyone who condones rape, murder, & slavery (as any Christian, Muslim or Jew must do if they follow their 'holy' texts) is a despicable sociopath in dire need of incarceration.

I'm... not sure how you expect anyone to agree with that statement.

Dude i"m an atheist and even this zealot-of-an-atheist (big eye)pisses me off. This is what I'm talking about he goes crazy (no offense) now my whole group looks bad

This is probably just a miscommunication, but were you referring to me when you said "zealot-of-an-atheist?" That would be wrong on two counts.

Personally, I think it's better to weigh people by who they are, rather than by their beliefs, and I respect the atheist worldview, though I can't say I agree with it.

LarenzoAOG:
Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

Therumancer:

/snip regarding religion, culture and violent Muslims

There's a part of your post I agree with, and one with which I strongly disagree.
I agree that the violence of middle eastern conflict could not happen without some degree of public complicity. Sadly, and in the same way, the transpiration of the Holocaust must have meant that a significant minority of Germans did want to see the Jews "dealt with," and that a majority either didn't know, didn't care, or didn't have the stones to do something about the travesty that followed.

However, I strongly disagree with your implicit stance that the answer to violent prejudice is military action. It is in fact military action that causes violent prejudice, as it has in Africa, Europe, parts of Asia, and even North America. America bringing war to Al-Qaeda's doorstep only brought in more recruits, and while our militaries may have scored a victory by conventional standards, the damage that has been done will take decades to heal. Simply because war is the only viable tool at our disposal does not mean that it should be used.

daftnoize:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

Hits the nail on the head I think

I love the Onion.

OT: I personally don't think it's anything to get to up in arms over, I don't think it's not that much different then when the villians are Russian or something. Besides, anyone who honestly thinks that Muslim automatically means terrorist is obviously a bigoted fucktard who's opinion doesn't (Or at least shouldn't) really matter to anyone except other bigoted fucktards.

strum4h:

LarenzoAOG:
Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

*facepalm*
The only difference between radicals committing crimes and ordinary, run-of-the-mill psychopaths committing crimes is that the religionists get more media attention. Same deal with violent video games.

Does being a gamer make you violent? Hell no. Does being a Muslim make you violent? Hell no. Does being from Texas make you violent?

...Jury's still out on that one.

The Big Eye:

strum4h:

LarenzoAOG:
Their are assholes in every culture and religion and if you are someone who bases ur opinion of an entire culture on the actions of a few radicals then YOU are an asshole too... in fact ur one of the alpha assholes that helps facilitate assholeism for all the other assholes. I'll take whatever you got moderators!

It is hard to ignore a lot of the things that radicals do. That is the main problem with any religion. That there will always be people blindly following something and taking it to such an extreme that they are willing to kill over it. People need to think freely, decide for themselves if they want to die for no reason.

*facepalm*
The only difference between radicals committing crimes and ordinary, run-of-the-mill psychopaths committing crimes is that the religionists get more media attention. Same deal with violent video games.

Does being a gamer make you violent? Hell no. Does being a Muslim make you violent? Hell no. Does being from Texas make you violent?

...Jury's still out on that one.

I meant by that last line that people should not blindly follow religion. I never said being religious makes you violent but it certainly gives you bias towards it.

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