The Big Picture: Once Upon a Time in The Future

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vodkainferno:
Really, I agree that the Space program should not be our top priority.
And Its not because of the poor. But the US has a 14 TRILLION dollar debt going on... I don't think spending billions so we can colonize mars would really help that....

Yes, lets largely ignore the 14 TRILLION dollar Precious metal deposits on an astral body and have the chance to have SOLE RIGHTS and CAPABILITY to mine and process it... obviously searching worlds full of untapped resources and untouched minerals is such a low priority because space exploration, which has less then a quarter of a precent budget, is 'too expensive in this economy'.

happyelf:
You know what happened to 'us', bob? We became a civilisation of whinging selfish manchildren who think that mars missions and ipods are more important than feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, or dealing with the huge global disasters that are looming in our near future.

No, we just became idiots which feel like we can solve such mundane problems with direct involvement in a meager attempt to stroke our egos and feel better about our selves because we can announce 'I'm Helping!' on the world stage.

do you really think sending rice and medical aid to the starving, dying, sick individuals in some nation a world away is acctually going to, in any way, solve that problem?

exspecially when you consider a majority of the places we send these things to are that way because a tyranical government has constructed the nation to be that way...

Onyx Oblivion:
Poor Bob.

It fell out of the media spotlight, Bob. That's all that happened. The media would rather give Justin Beiber a music award, or show pictures of racist right-wing idiots, or talk about how to shop safely on Black Friday.

Not all right wingers are racists idiots. I'm not racists, I hate everyone equally. I am sad to see the space program dismantled.

Dear Bob.

You want to know what happened? Socialism happened.

Dzikun

p.s I share the same opinion. Colonies on Mars > world peace.

About a year ago, my dad and I were determined to see a shuttle launch before it happened. we live about 3 hours away from the kennedy space center. we went 4 times and every time it got scrubbed. we spent a total of 24 hours in the car and over $400 on tickets hotels, and gas trying to try to see this, all for naught. we still would have gone to more to try but every time, something was in the way. So yeah, I am angry about it ending you're not the only on bob, don't worry, i've been angry too, but still, nothing I can do can help.

I'm with you Bob. Seeing a manned voyage to Mars is probably the #1 thing I hope humanity does in my lifetime.

edit - I mean humanity has to colonize the stars at some point if we want our species to survive more than a million years or so (I do, I guess some don't). Mass extinction happens, manmade or not. The only way to survive is to colonize a plethora of earths.

Let China or India (preferably India) work about space. Both of those countries could use a big accomplishment like that for some kudos in the international world. USA, Russia, the UK, France. All of them have had their legendary moments on the world stage. How about letting two of the oldest civilizations have a "return to glory" while the states gets their act together and decides what in Columbus's name they want to do with the numerous wars (metaphorical and literal) they are fighting.

India colonizes the moon, America plays Tech Support FOR THEM (for a change).

Not sure if someone has mentioned this, but Neil deGrasse Tyson has pointed out a critical reason why a space program is necessary.

Check out the video:
http://bigthink.com/ideas/13152

If you stop innovation, you stop progress. You stop attracting smart people to your country. Now, I'm not American, so if America falls behind, it doesn't really matter to me. But it's good to know what innovation means in practical term.

Dr Tyson also pointed out that space program also helps us learn about our own planet. For example, by studying green house effect on Venus, we may know how to prevent it on Earth.

The saddest thing is not that space program has been cut, but rather the fact that doing something great, like going to Mars, requires more incentive than scientific curiosity or because it's a good challenge. History has shown that any great undertaking has been driven by religion, war, or financial gain. Unless humanity change in a big way, we're not going to Mars until one of the above criteria can be filled. You know, if they found oil on Mars, we'll be there next month...

Well, according to my interpretation of the new rules, I am not allowed to criticize the hard work done by Movie Bob, even though he has admitted he doesn't do research. I DO do research, and I had a well thought out argument with many provable points, but I guess I will just say I disagree with Bob's thoughts on this subject. I really like Bob, but I feel he doesn't see the "Big Picture" on this one. While I am disappointed with some of these new rules, The Escapist is a private company that can implement whatever restrictions they want, and Bob is entitled to his opinion. I just disagree with him, and the fact that I am not allowed to cite why. I am going to go listen to some Arch Enemy and rage quietly now.

Russia launched the first man into space, BTW. And the space program is still there, launching crews into orbit.

So be sure Bob, space is safe with us...

Bob, I can't understand how you can miss the huge hypocrisy you used in this video. I mean, you're a smart guy and you produce great content, but I get the feeling you don't have a mortgage.

Here, I'll try to make this simple: Saying you'd have your sci-fi fantasies made real at the expense of not dealing with other people's very real and immediate needs is the exact same bullshit "me-first" attitude that caused the financial meltdown, and in turn the situation that forced the budget cut in the first place.

If that was too harsh, let me rephrase this in a more nerdy way.

We'll never have Starfleet by putting technology ahead of people- that's what the Borg do.

*sniff* That is the one thing that was my hope for an entirly safe future. 'Cause if we started learning home to live on mars then we could just build a giant robotic forest, with every spieces on earth. THEN I'm sure we could build space station and have a sustainable country IN SPACE. Not even on a planet, That means we would have infinte room to expand and grow! Natural desasters would barely effect us! What next, HYPER SPACE?!?! God damn, the possiblites.

stan573:
Bob, I can't understand how you can miss the huge hypocrisy you used in this video. I mean, you're a smart guy and you produce great content, but I get the feeling you don't have a mortgage.

Here, I'll try to make this simple: Saying you'd have your sci-fi fantasies made real at the expense of not dealing with other people's very real and immediate needs is the exact same bullshit "me-first" attitude that caused the financial meltdown, and in turn the situation that forced the budget cut in the first place.

If that was too harsh, let me rephrase this in a more nerdy way.

We'll never have Starfleet by putting technology ahead of people- that's what the Borg do.

But, if this technology is made then room on earth will be a long gone problem, and who says that were going to suddenly stop caring about everybody. It's not like we're going to throw babys or something into the lava pit to power the hyper-toture-kill-people-to-go-to-place machine. But we still have a dream to be totally awesome in space. Fair enough?

Devling:

stan573:
Bob, I can't understand how you can miss the huge hypocrisy you used in this video. I mean, you're a smart guy and you produce great content, but I get the feeling you don't have a mortgage.

Here, I'll try to make this simple: Saying you'd have your sci-fi fantasies made real at the expense of not dealing with other people's very real and immediate needs is the exact same bullshit "me-first" attitude that caused the financial meltdown, and in turn the situation that forced the budget cut in the first place.

If that was too harsh, let me rephrase this in a more nerdy way.

We'll never have Starfleet by putting technology ahead of people- that's what the Borg do.

But, if this technology is made then room on earth will be a long gone problem, and who says that were going to suddenly stop caring about everybody. It's not like we're going to throw babys or something into the lava pit to power the hyper-toture-kill-people-to-go-to-place machine. But we still have a dream to be totally awesome in space. Fair enough?

And how will we get that technology? There's no money, and there are plenty of people in immediate danger of losing their homes. It would be pretty damn heartless to tell those people to suck it up and wait for the future to fix everything while they're out on the street.

No offence, but shouldnt finding more places to put people take presedence overmaking even more people?

I mean, if we can at least build colonies in orbit around earth, we could at least cut back on our overpopulation problem, if not cure it.

For other reasons why we need to focus more on the stars then ourselves, check out my previous post

i think its back on page three or four

I'm a big fan of this new show. Insightful and complicated but blunt. Thank you Bob.

I would wish for world peace, but the reason we need space programs is because earth won't be here forever.

Ugh. I'd agree with enlightenment values over liberal values any day. I'd place knowledge as a much higher priority than world peace or solving world hunger.

Why?

Because people are going to die. No matter what. Does it really matter all that much? Is the human struggle really just a struggle to prolong our own lives and fill them with pleasurable experiences? I spit on this hedonism that underlies liberal values.

If there is any nobility in human existence it is in our struggle to grow and learn more about the world. If we lose that just so everyone can have their +/-70 years of wretched contentment then I say humanity no longer deserves to exist.

That being said, who cares about space travel? WE CAN'T DO IT PROPERLY RIGHT NOW ANYWAY! WE DON'T HAVE ANTI-GRAVITY OR FASTER THAN LIGHT TRAVEL. HELL WE'RE STILL USING FOSSIL FUELS.

I'm more excited about CERN, genetics, neuroscience, computers and robotics than I am about space travel. It's those things we should be worried about. When I think of all the romantic stuff about the human quest for knowledge I think of a microscope, not a space shuttle.

Sir I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. Progress is needed more than whining about the corporate money race.

Bob, if you're reading this, which you probably aren't, you aren't alone. Hearing about this saddened the crap out of me.

What really happened is that we lost the attitude of, "Unsafe? Screw it, just do it before the Russians!"
Space travel has never been safe, and that first trip to the moon took some serious balls.
Today there doesn't seem to be a drive to overlook those safety concerns.

And how can a race that has made their living exploring and expanding and discovering new frontiers just throw in the towel because of fiscal concerns and budget cuts? I don't get it.

People have probably already mentioned this but Bob does a nice job of presenting a narrow viewpoint of one side of an issue.

Spaceflight interested me for years, and I've done a pretty good job of following what's been happening.

The real issue is manned space flight vs. unmanned space flight.

Manned spaceflight requires a lot of systems to support something that really shouldn't be in outer space and on other planetary bodies: humans.

As such, any manned spaceflight is extremely costly when compared to unmanned spaceflight. The goals shift from making sure "our guys" come back in one piece and exploration to simply: Exploration.

That means we have to make sure what we do w/ manned spaceflight counts. One of the reason the President had axed the constellation program was it was massively over-budget only to return us to a place we'd already been.

Better to send humans to an asteriod, even farther away than the moon but even more complex in terms of docking/landing a spaceship with it. Eventually the next step would be to go to Mars.

Notice how Bob neglects to mention all of the above...

qbanknight:
Ever since I was 6 I dreamed of going to the stars, sadly that will have to remain a dream for the time being. I don't mind other countries going ahead with their space programs and seeing what wonderful things they could come up with (hopefully they'll let a couple of Americans in on the party provided we have some good tools to back them up)

Or you can pay enough. Sadly, I doubt I'll ever have that option.

Dzikun:
Dear Bob.

You want to know what happened? Socialism happened.

Dzikun

p.s I share the same opinion. Colonies on Mars > world peace.

Socialism happened? Please explain?

No small part of it is that the government would rather spend money supporting every Third World hole that can offload its excess people onto us, thus ensuring themselves a steady voting base.

You don't get votes with space.

Personally, I welcome the end of the government stranglehold on space.

The guys that grew up at the feet of the nerd gods like Clarke, Asimov, and Roddenberry? They're running the companies that are reaching for space. Our government is run by accountants and vote-whores, the private sector is where all the dreamers live.

Sure, Scaled Composites might have to take some douchetard's $10 million for a lark in space, but that money's going to the gods' work.

Time to consign NASA to the dustbin.

I feel ya bob but the trouble is the US government is too mismanaged and corrupted to make much of anything affordable, but chin up when the corporations take over after the fall of most governments

PS:I still would like to see Obmoba's birth certificate, the trouble of not showing it is more frighting than showing it, IMO. But its on the low end scale for me I would like to kill off the US government and start fresh with something that bans lobbying and lowers corporation via keeping people out after 1 term, One term(one year at work) to each seat(House,senate,adviser,contractor,ect,ect). We need less old fools seeking to become aristocrats and more well hearted fools that want to help the public.

Trust me when I say you're far from the only one pissed off that we as a race haven't really gone anywhere since the Apollo days. There have been plans on the books to set up Mars missions and even colonies since the 70's, yet we're still sitting on our collective thumbs. I'll be happy if the Canadian and European space agencies step in to fill the void, and start getting shit done for once.

America got uneducated and under skilled. Right now I have two living choices; live with my parents, or live under a bridge, And I'm 24 years old!!!!!!!! Simply Americans are not going to care about space travel when they are more worried about becoming homeless. It also doesn't help that Americans don't think we can do it anymore, It's not like our government is pulling out the bells an buttons to convinces their own people that we are the best anymore, "yes we can" kind of turned into "Well do it later" even before Obama showed up.

AjimboB:
The problem that the space program faces is a lack of tangible goals. The reason people used to care about NASA was because of the cold war, and the goal of NASA was to beat the soviets, and show American dominance and supremacy through science. Since the Soviet Union collapsed, the US hasn't had an enemy on the same technological level as us

Not that I think your post was wrong at all, but wait 10-15 years. When India and especially China have become the next driving forces behind the global aconomy technology and the US goes the way Britain has, you'll see things change.

ReiverCorrupter:
Ugh. I'd agree with enlightenment values over liberal values any day. I'd place knowledge as a much higher priority than world peace or solving world hunger.

Why?

Because people are going to die. No matter what. Does it really matter all that much? Is the human struggle really just a struggle to prolong our own lives and fill them with pleasurable experiences? I spit on this hedonism that underlies liberal values.

If there is any nobility in human existence it is in our struggle to grow and learn more about the world. If we lose that just so everyone can have their +/-70 years of wretched contentment then I say humanity no longer deserves to exist.

That being said, who cares about space travel? WE CAN'T DO IT PROPERLY RIGHT NOW ANYWAY! WE DON'T HAVE ANTI-GRAVITY OR FASTER THAN LIGHT TRAVEL. HELL WE'RE STILL USING FOSSIL FUELS.

I'm more excited about CERN, genetics, neuroscience, computers and robotics than I am about space travel. It's those things we should be worried about. When I think of all the romantic stuff about the human quest for knowledge I think of a microscope, not a space shuttle.

Oh my god, do you even know what you're saying? NASA is government-funded. Liberals are the ones who push to fund it!

And this is nothing to say of your callous disregard for your fellow human being. I think you're trying to equate 'basic necessities such as shelter' with 'let's all buy each other yachts'.

US Military Spending Estimate for 2011: $1.060-$1.449 trillion

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States )

The only way NASA will get its $19 billion for the Constellation Program is if it discovers life and promptly declares war on it.

The idea of space travel is nice, and the idea of colonizing the moon or mars is even nicer. however at this time, I must point out that i think it simply isn't possible or wise to attempt these projects. the US government is 14 trillion in debt, and our social security system is collapsing due to extensive government borrowing. Even if we had the technology to settle on another planet (which we pointedly don't have) the resources required to would bankrupt the US in a second. If that doesn't bother you, consider this. air would need to be shipped to these colonies at regular intervals, as well water, mechanical components to maintain whatever sort of climate control system is in place, and the energy required to run these systems (in the form of fossil fuels since we don't have a reliable clean energy source.) Contrary to popular belief, space travel is no picnic, it costs money to create and launch a shuttle and remember to factor in the amount of those we would need to sustain a colony. also once in space astronauts suffer side effects, notably a reduction in bone and muscle tissue. on mars and the moon, which both have lower gravity than earth, people may eventually suffer an atrophy so severe that they can no longer return to Earth's stronger gravity.

I am very interested in space travel and sci-fi, but I don't believe outer space colonization at this point is a viable place to spend tax dollars. If anything, we should be using our money to pay our giant debts or to improve our economic condition. If our national debt was more balanced, I would be all in favor of a space program, but not one that simply sends people to the moon time and again. Rather, research into clean energy sources and climate control structures would be much more beneficial to the ultimate goal of creating a colony on another planet, opposed to sporadic expeditions to planets we can observe much more easily with a high-powered telescope or unmanned crafts.

Those are my thoughts at least.

stan573:
Bob, I can't understand how you can miss the huge hypocrisy you used in this video. I mean, you're a smart guy and you produce great content, but I get the feeling you don't have a mortgage.

Here, I'll try to make this simple: Saying you'd have your sci-fi fantasies made real at the expense of not dealing with other people's very real and immediate needs is the exact same bullshit "me-first" attitude that caused the financial meltdown, and in turn the situation that forced the budget cut in the first place.

If that was too harsh, let me rephrase this in a more nerdy way.

We'll never have Starfleet by putting technology ahead of people- that's what the Borg do.

so by cutting the ability to create jobs on, in this case, the Moon or Mars before, during, and after colonization is not economically viable since people are already having hard troubles?

How about this, I just lost my shit-paying job at a shitty fast food restaurant for not being able to come into work due to illness.

let me say that again, I got fired for being sick.

right now, if I was offered a job to get put on the moon to help get it ready for colonization I would jump on it immediately just because that would give me work.

"oh but other people dont have work either and/or are starving!" screw them, everyone has the ability to be of some use in life, just because they are to lazy to see what needs to be done, and how to progress to reach that goal is not acceptable.

to put it very bluntly, give me space colonies, or give me a nuclear war, something other than this empty gas-tank we have been running on since the 1960's.

Kalezian:

stan573:
Bob, I can't understand how you can miss the huge hypocrisy you used in this video. I mean, you're a smart guy and you produce great content, but I get the feeling you don't have a mortgage.

Here, I'll try to make this simple: Saying you'd have your sci-fi fantasies made real at the expense of not dealing with other people's very real and immediate needs is the exact same bullshit "me-first" attitude that caused the financial meltdown, and in turn the situation that forced the budget cut in the first place.

If that was too harsh, let me rephrase this in a more nerdy way.

We'll never have Starfleet by putting technology ahead of people- that's what the Borg do.

so by cutting the ability to create jobs on, in this case, the Moon or Mars before, during, and after colonization is not economically viable since people are already having hard troubles?

How about this, I just lost my shit-paying job at a shitty fast food restaurant for not being able to come into work due to illness.

let me say that again, I got fired for being sick.

right now, if I was offered a job to get put on the moon to help get it ready for colonization I would jump on it immediately just because that would give me work.

"oh but other people dont have work either and/or are starving!" screw them, everyone has the ability to be of some use in life, just because they are to lazy to see what needs to be done, and how to progress to reach that goal is not acceptable.

to put it very bluntly, give me space colonies, or give me a nuclear war, something other than this empty gas-tank we have been running on since the 1960's.

No one's going to be given space colonies. It's not something your Daddy just fishes out of his pocket after you ask nicely. If you're ready to say that the programs being set in place to help the most in need in this country aren't necessary because everyone can be useful, then turn that judgmental fucking gaze on yourself. You want something? Do it on your own. If space is the best way you see yourself getting a job, find a way for Nike or Verizon to get you there. Or hell, build a ship in your own backyard for all I care. Screw other people, right?

I would love to see a serious take on a movie where the premise is aliens meeting some corporate douchebags.

stan573:

No one's going to be given space colonies. It's not something your Daddy just fishes out of his pocket after you ask nicely. If you're ready to say that the programs being set in place to help the most in need in this country aren't necessary because everyone can be useful, then turn that judgmental fucking gaze on yourself. You want something? Do it on your own. If space is the best way you see yourself getting a job, find a way for Nike or Verizon to get you there. Or hell, build a ship in your own backyard for all I care. Screw other people, right?

yes, because our TAXES that we pay does not cover ANYTHING in the governmental budget.

you know, you might have a solid ground to stand on if it wasnt for that little fact, and if there was a way to ensure 100% of all of my taxes could go to the space program, trust me, I would be spending much more than what I am now.

also:

If you're ready to say that the programs being set in place to help the most in need in this country aren't necessary because everyone can be useful, then turn that judgmental fucking gaze on yourself.

because helping others is communism, you would know that if you had payed any attention to the past two years. Look at what helped end the great depression, the government created work programs, if the same happened with space exploration in general, we could already have plans to colonize a few bodies past the asteroid belt, instead of laughing at stupid cat videos on the internet or having Justin Beiber getting hit with a bottle on a constant loop.

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