Force Unleashed 2 Is Too Much

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Celtic_Kerr:

Let us look at the history of star wars (the movies)

Episode 4: NO mention of the force giving telekinetic powers. "It guides us"

Episode 5: Yoda pulls a star fighter out of the swamp with great effort. Luke pulls his lightsaber from the snow with great effort... I know, budding appretice, but still)

After that it's basically playing a big game of "I one up'd you bitch!" until starkiller reaches all the way into fucking space and rips a star destroyer out of the skies... This man couldn't beat the emporer or vader? COME ON!

Vader is all machine. THe force flows through all living things, hence why Anikin Skywalker lost so much power when he lost his arms and legs and had them replaced with metal... I mean... Spoilers... Oops...

And if you can rip a star destroyer from the sky, you can crush a man like a fucking bug... But they had to make epic fight sequences

That's the inconsistency that Yahtzee was pointing out. You can rip a star destroyer, Vader is nothing, but he's the villain so you don't get to beat him easily.

Makes about as much sense as yippie dip skip-bo salad.

Really, KoTOR needs to be the standard for Star Wars video games. It doesn't even need to be an RPG. That game had internal consistency in regards to Force powers. Keep it like that and you are forced to make a decent story in spite of the flashy action sequences since the Force can't do that.

In writing, there's a rule: never make the hero more powerful than the villain. "STFU" has broken that rule. And then lied about it.

Fail.

Yahtzee can't handle the Force!

Ugh, I was ashamed of that before I finished thinking it XD

seekeroftruth86:

Celtic_Kerr:

Let us look at the history of star wars (the movies)

Episode 4: NO mention of the force giving telekinetic powers. "It guides us"

Episode 5: Yoda pulls a star fighter out of the swamp with great effort. Luke pulls his lightsaber from the snow with great effort... I know, budding appretice, but still)

After that it's basically playing a big game of "I one up'd you bitch!" until starkiller reaches all the way into fucking space and rips a star destroyer out of the skies... This man couldn't beat the emporer or vader? COME ON!

Vader is all machine. THe force flows through all living things, hence why Anikin Skywalker lost so much power when he lost his arms and legs and had them replaced with metal... I mean... Spoilers... Oops...

And if you can rip a star destroyer from the sky, you can crush a man like a fucking bug... But they had to make epic fight sequences

That's the inconsistency that Yahtzee was pointing out. You can rip a star destroyer, Vader is nothing, but he's the villain so you don't get to beat him easily.

Makes about as much sense as yippie dip skip-bo salad.

Really, KoTOR needs to be the standard for Star Wars video games. It doesn't even need to be an RPG. That game had internal consistency in regards to Force powers. Keep it like that and you are forced to make a decent story in spite of the flashy action sequences since the Force can't do that.

In writing, there's a rule: never make the hero more powerful than the villain. "STFU" has broken that rule. And then lied about it.

Fail.

STFU and Fail popped out of that before I even read. Thought you were telling me off. Think they did it on purpose to give Force unleashed the same Acronym as "Shut the Fuck up"? SUMBLIMINAL MESSAGING!

Caliostro:

Sir John the Net Knight:

Now we see the point of the whole cloning nonsense. Boba Fett is a clone, Starkiller is cloned and reborn. Lucas has introduced cloning as freaking retcon white-out. And when these new Star Wars films come out supposedly set thousands of years in the future. What? Emperor Palpatine? They cloned him?

*facepalm*

Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't simply clone either an army of Starkiller or an army of Darth Vaders.

Why build an army of Jango Fetts when you could build an army of guy that can crush an AT-ST by waving his hand?

This is explained in TFU2 (my brother played it, not me, I wouldn't touch that abortion)... When starkiller explains his predicament to the other jedi, and that he is not really the starkiller they know from before, they refuse to believe him at first because "cloning jedi is impossible", therefore he must have somehow survived and is just confused or something.
AFAIK it is not explained how the impossible was done, if it was actually done, or why nobody can do it again.

Celtic_Kerr:

seekeroftruth86:

Celtic_Kerr:

-snip-

That's the inconsistency that Yahtzee was pointing out. You can rip a star destroyer, Vader is nothing, but he's the villain so you don't get to beat him easily.

Makes about as much sense as yippie dip skip-bo salad.

Really, KoTOR needs to be the standard for Star Wars video games. It doesn't even need to be an RPG. That game had internal consistency in regards to Force powers. Keep it like that and you are forced to make a decent story in spite of the flashy action sequences since the Force can't do that.

In writing, there's a rule: never make the hero more powerful than the villain. "STFU" has broken that rule. And then lied about it.

Fail.

STFU and Fail popped out of that before I even read. Thought you were telling me off. Think they did it on purpose to give Force unleashed the same Acronym as "Shut the Fuck up"? SUMBLIMINAL MESSAGING!

Ha ha ha! I thought that "backronym" was clever actually. Just drop the W and that's what you get!

Considering Lucasarts' recent track record it wouldn't surprise me. George Lucas doesn't care about black people his fans. (Although when was the last time you saw a strong, black character that wasn't relegated to a bit part? Lando was awesome, where'd he go?)

Apologies if you felt offended at first. Not my intent, clearly.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one to whom "Shia The Beef" has occured as a natural appelation to Msgr. La Beouf.

hawk533:

Bobic:
You complain that those bosses are too big yet a few weeks ago you praised shadow of the colossus. I see a little inconsistency in your ramblings.

In Shadow of the Colossus you are constantly in fear of being thrown off as this gigantic beast that you barely at the last minute are able to kill because you have a magical sword. It's not that unrealistic because you aren't some jumbo, overpowered meat man. You are a fragile youth that has to fight tooth and nail to climb up this giant and after climbing to it's weak point and stabbing it 3 to 4 times you finally bring it down.

As (starkly) opposed to Kratos, who regularly brings down such behemoths to work up an appetite before lunch.

Going way, way, way over-the-top can work, but it's really tough... you have to be really creative, consistently top yourself, and know how to quit when you're ahead.

And video games have the added problem of crafting a control scheme to pull it off. And mostly they just resort to the twin game-killers of gimmick boss fights and quick-time-events.

Spot on. This article was, IMO, spot on.
i much rather fight some human (or alien, but humanoid and man-sized) sith or jedi or whatever, then fight a huge monster. it makes no sense, and it's linear as s**t. you hit it a bit, then it slams the ground, then you pound at it, then it dies. Big deal. in TFU 1, in the dlc Hoth map where you fought Luke, you could toss him around like a piece of paper, or you could fry him up, or saber him, or whatever, and it felt cool! (not as cool as any of the saber battles in the Jedi knight games, but still...)

Loved the article Yahtzee.

Magnificent article.

You should ask for a raise. Seriously.

Except for the following bit where Indy destroys a cannon by blocking the end with a bit of jagged rock that didn't even seal it properly, but what do you want, it's Hollywood.

Haha, that's exactly what I thought, even when I saw it the first time and was about 6-7 I actually thought "That rock hasn't sealed the hole, that won't work". :')

But yeah, I find that every time I read these on Tuesday I get some form of hope that humanity isn't toally screwed yet. There is hope for us in people like you, Yahtzee!

I'm tunning in XD

Sir John the Net Knight:

Caliostro:

Sir John the Net Knight:

Now we see the point of the whole cloning nonsense. Boba Fett is a clone, Starkiller is cloned and reborn. Lucas has introduced cloning as freaking retcon white-out. And when these new Star Wars films come out supposedly set thousands of years in the future. What? Emperor Palpatine? They cloned him?

*facepalm*

Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't simply clone either an army of Starkiller or an army of Darth Vaders.

Why build an army of Jango Fetts when you could build an army of guy that can crush an AT-ST by waving his hand?

Probably because Batman: Arkham Asylum beat them to that idea.

I totally agree with you on this one. While I loved Batman: AA to bits, by the end of the game I fucking hated the 'boss encounters'. I got to the point where I was like 'I wonder what Joker has install now... could it be a Baneling (geddit?!) with MORE creeps than he had last time'... Imagine my (lack of) surprise at each consequent encounter!

TiefBlau:

I forgot:

Jiveturkey124:
As usual another excellent article that isnt meant for mere laughs but to actually change the industry, a true observation of human fallacies.

Yahtzee Croshaw is the John Stewart of Gaming, give it a couple more years and I see Yahtzee leaving the simple internet media and branching out into the public's eye.

Actually, I kind of dread that day because he's still an amateur at game criticism. Almost all of his works are filled with fallacies, even now.
The problem with both of these cases is that they don't want to put fear, they want to empower. You're not supposed to be afraid with Kratos because he's a god killer with amazing strength. Plus, he's comparing this to Condemned, which is a Horror game. No duh you're more likely to be afraid. He misses the point of these games. I want to know what gave him the idea that a game where you beat up monsters, gods and titans wanted to instill fear?

If he's an amateur, you're not even in scratching distance of him.
Horror game or not, you want to feel your emotions evoked, to find yourself in front of a challenge that you may be apprehensive to approach. You have to be realistic and relatable if you want the player to feel even remotely connected to the characters and the process at hand. Games that pride themselves as ridiculous don't have to deal with this. Saints Row 2's reckless abandon of realism and Team Fortress 2's charming art style can attest to this. But any game that wants to have a semblance of realistic struggle needs to have some sense of scope. "Empowerment"? Hardly. Whatever empowerment God of War 3 grants is easily offset by the amount of detachment to the game you feel once you become to powerful.

To put this into perpective, can you imagine playing Grand Theft Auto 4 as the mayor of SimCity? No, you can't. You can't imagine that kind of gritty realism when you're conjuring up tornadoes. The struggles in Max Payne become laughable. When you're a god among men, there are no interesting men.

Seriously, I think you're just mad because of what I said about Yahtzee. In a way, I'm not even disagreeing with you (you don't get a sense of apprehension from Kratos because he's so damn strong) so I don't know who you're responding to. If this was about a game like Dead Space, I'd find nothing wrong with his point. I only found something wrong with his example and him insinuating that games should be more realistic.

He raises some interesting points but doesent anyone think its strange that he complained these bosses were too big but praised Shadow of the Colossus because of the huge bosses? I actually think that huge bosses or set pieces make things feel epic.

Sir John the Net Knight:

Now we see the point of the whole cloning nonsense. Boba Fett is a clone, Starkiller is cloned and reborn. Lucas has introduced cloning as freaking retcon white-out. And when these new Star Wars films come out supposedly set thousands of years in the future. What? Emperor Palpatine? They cloned him?

They already cloned palpatine in the books, long before the prequels ever came out.

JoJoDeathunter:

Azaraxzealot:
i dont exactly understand how a game can be "too awesome" i mean, look at Saints Row 2, that was ridiculous in almost every way but people accept that
or inFamous or Prototype, both very ridiculous but also a spectacle to be enjoyed.

besides that, i always thought directors were trying to go for less "flash" and "bang" because of the rise of "realistic" games like Cash-In Of Duty and Grand Theft Auto 4.

Have you even played any of the most recent COD's? The graphics may be on the grey/brown/dull-side but I wouldn't call it's action (one squad saving the world) by any stretch of the imagination "realistic".

Personally, i don't see any problem with crossing the so called line of reality in video games (after all most video games like to base themselves in unbelievable situations as is) but i also agree that there is such a thing as going too far, such as what JoJoDeathunter was talking about. Games like COD or MW need to have some basis in reality or else it breaks the illusion. Of course, like Yahtzee said, this can also be done with games like Force Unleashed or God of War. Even if it is a fantasy story, you still need to have some sense of reality.

Jorpho:
Wouldn't the opposite of "design by committee" be an "auteur game" of the sort that was rallied against in Mr. Crowshaw's "Too Human" review? It would seem to me that both approaches can easily produce both deeply flawed and excellent games.

Just like the opposite of a steak with way too much salt is a steak with no salt at all.

Akalabeth:

Sir John the Net Knight:

Now we see the point of the whole cloning nonsense. Boba Fett is a clone, Starkiller is cloned and reborn. Lucas has introduced cloning as freaking retcon white-out. And when these new Star Wars films come out supposedly set thousands of years in the future. What? Emperor Palpatine? They cloned him?

They already cloned palpatine in the books, long before the prequels ever came out.

You know, I actually know that, and I thought it was a stupid idea then. There's no lamer idea in literature than bringing back a dead villain through cloning. Of course, George "Hack Writer from Hell" Lucas. Thinks it's a great idea, and that's all you need to know.

Caliostro:

A1:

You really seem to be talking about anime in too broad a sense. There is a tremendous amount of variety in anime and anime is by no means any one thing. It's many things. I'm pretty sure that even Yahtzee would agree with me on this one. And if you are describing Dragonball and Naruto as realistically inclined then I really can't say that I agree with you. For example in the very first episode of Naruto the very first thing we see is a giant demon fox and in Dragonball we have things like dinosaurs that still exist for no apparent reason and cars that you can carry around in tiny capsules. If you want realistically inclined then I would suggest titles like Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade and Monster. Now THOSE are realistically inclined.

You misunderstood me.

Yes, I know anime is very broad, I watch a lot of it myself. But anime series tend to fall prey to this, particularly "run on series", or series that are "stretched" past their original script (e.g.: Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Dragonball, to a lesser extent, and despite remaining quite good, Rurouni Kenshi...etc). Anime already tends to start off on more loose interpretations of reality, and "run-on"/"never ending" series inevitably fall prey to power scaling... And an anime that started a "a bit over the top" quickly degenerates into "ridiculous super powers world-ending abominations".

Naruto is a good example. The ninjas in Naruto start out as your typical pop culture ninja: super fast, very strong, and with quite a few "tricks" up their sleeve. You had one of two "titans", but that was it.

...Halfway through the series we're dealing with monsters that can plough through an entire city in a hit, summon sand tsunamis and assorted monsters the size of mountains, to say nothing of Itachi and the Akatsuki freaks...

Dragonball is another text book example. You start with "bordering on super human" fighters, who are considered the very elite. Songoku is some sort of super human being for his capacities, and all the other "very strong" opponents he finds tend to be conquerors or leaders of armies of some kind. And these are the very, absolute, elite best. Mostly they can punch people through a wall or two, and a leap a few duzen extra feet in the air. At one point, Goku is considered some kind of absurdly rare "chosen one" for his capacity to shoot a basic fire ball (the Kamehameha).

Things quickly spin out of control after the Piccollo saga, and by the middle of DragonBall Z we're reached a ridiculous level of fighting where artists just decided "fuck it" and fights are essentially invisible, and everyone that can't fire a fireball without thinking is some kind of retarded failure.

By the depressingly bad ending of DragonBall GT, anyone that can't destroy an entire planet with a punch on a bad day is not even worth mentioning as anything other than comic relief.

It's the whole reason I've taken to watching animes that come with a predetermined beginning, middle and end. First, because the story is far more "focused", with basically no fillers, and second because there's a lower chance of running into absurd power scaling.

That said, you mixed up the "realistic" part. Things don't have to be realistic, they have to be coherent. Lightsabers aren't "realistic", but they make sense in the universe. Being able to pull down a Star Destroyer, which, by the way, is roughly a mile long by roughly 0.6 miles wide star ship that carries around an army, with pin point precision without even moving is not.

The problem isn't being realistic or not, it's when the world defines it's own realism, then fucks it right up in favour of giving everyone super powers.

A1:
But then again consistency really doesn't seem to be George Lucas's strong point. For example Leland Chee, the person in charge of maintaining the Star Wars continuity database called Holocron, at one point outright stated that George Lucas's view of the Star Wars expanded universe was "constantly evolving".

Let me break this to you, from one one former fan to another: George Lucas is a hack.

Yes, I said that. George Lucas by himself is a clueless fucking hack. He has some good ideas, but he hasn't the slightest idea what to do with them. His original 3 movies become the gold they did because he was constantly riddled by technical limitations and a team that constantly criticized his insanity. These people kept him in check. These people went away after the first 3 movies, and were substituted by brown nosing fucks who were afraid to tell Georgy "...Yeah, this is a bad idea". On top of that, the original Star Wars were such a colossal hit that George became the prodigal "golden boy" of movie making. Nobody dared criticize him, and he somehow got the idea that he owed it all to himself... And that he could write... And didn't really need anyone else...

To top it all off, Georgy went from "underdog" to "monopoly guy". He went from being the guy with ideas nobody gave a chance to, to one of the big boys that could do anything he wanted, no matter how stupid... He developed a taste for money, and lost his interest in artistic integrity and the like...

The result is what you see today: A creatively bankrupt franchise milking old whore.

To me, Star Wars is Episodes IV, V and VI. With maybe some room for Kyle Katarn and the Jedi Knight series, and the first KOTOR. Everything else I've personally relayed to the garbage bin of "half baked fanfic author masturbation".

First let me mention that for the first part of this response I'm going to be referring to the anime stuff and not the Star Wars stuff. When I'm referring to the Star Wars stuff I'll let you know.

You still seem to be talking about anime in too broad a sense. You said "But anime series tend to fall prey to this" but a more appropriate and more accurate thing to say would have been "But SOME anime series tend to fall prey to this". And I know what you mean by "run on" series. You're talking about the ongoing, long-running titles that don't really have any predetermined length. But as far as I can tell these titles actually constitute a small minority of the anime world, hence the importance of the "SOME" I mentioned. And you also said "Anime already tends to start off" but this is also too general.

And I really don't think that describing these titles as "stretched beyond their original script" is a particularly accurate way to put it, if at all. Some time ago, Naruto creator Masashi Kishimoto stated that he had a very clear picture of how he would end the story, but he also said that it would be quite some time before he could even think of ending the story.

Furthermore, more recently One Piece creator Eiichiro Oda stated "The story is mainly about only 5 characters, but there are so many things I want to do that it ended up being the way it is now.". He also mentioned that from the beginning the ending of the story hasn't changed.

These stories don't really seem to have any "original script" at all.

And I'm also not sure saying "halfway through the series" with regard to Naruto is accurate either. If memory serves Kishimoto did mention a while ago that the story was about 20% finished. With regard to that statistic I'm not sure where we would even be today.

I'm really not exactly sure what your problem with power-scaling is. I don't see how it's incoherent. For instance in the case of Dragonball one of the main themes in that title was, by all accounts, getting stronger. Something that Goku in particular was always trying to do. Therefore the increasingly incredible feats performed by him and the other characters would seem to be a perfectly understandable result, especially considering that realism was apparently never much of a concern to begin with.

And with "At one point, Goku is considered some kind of absurdly rare "chosen one" for his capacity to shoot a basic fire ball (the Kamehameha)." I'm not sure where you're getting this from as Master Roshi was the one who first used the Kamehameha wave and Goku learned it afterward. Furthermore, not long after that Krilin and Yamcha both learned it with relative ease. And Master Roshi did indeed marvel at the rise of this new and more powerful generation of fighters. And of course in the story of Naruto Kakashi did at one point outright state that it's natural for newer generations to surpass older ones.

With regard to the ANIME part of this conversation, I'm not really sure where this incoherence you speak of is. Master Roshi obliterated a mountain, and even the moon itself, early on in Dragonball. In Bleach, super powerful characters like Byakuya Kuchiki, Captain Yamamoto, Sosuke Aizen, Kisuke Urahara, and others were all introduced early on. It's the same with Naruto with the early introduction of the super powerful nine tailed fox as well as Naruto's ability to tap into it's incredible power. It's also established early on that Naruto has exceptionally large Chakra reserves. There were also the early introductions of super powerful characters like Kakashi Hatake, Hiruzen Sarutobi (the third Hokage), Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Gaara, and Kimimaro.

Needless to say becoming stronger does by all accounts seem to be a common theme in shounen manga. Or in other worlds going from zero to super. Therefore in that vein there wouldn't seem to be any real incoherence because the high levels of power later demonstrated serve as an understandable result of the paths that the characters set themselves on. And of course the possibilities or potentials are established early on.

I realize that this may come off as rude and I'm sorry about that. But I'm not so sure if the issue is "the world" defining it's own realism so much as it is you yourself defining the world's realism. Or in other worlds in the case of at least most of the shounen manga titles mentioned it seems that it doesn't seem to be that things go too far to fit into the established universe, just that they may go too far to fit into the way that you personally see, or perhaps would like to see, the established universe. That being said I get the impression, partially from your use of words like absurd and ridiculous, that "the ultimate problem" (which would essentially seem to be the problem that you personally have with the aforementioned titles) that you mention actually is essentially that things simply go too far. Or at least too far for some people.

HOWEVER. All of this is with regard to all of the anime stuff and not the Star Wars stuff.

With regard to the Star Wars stuff the incoherence notion does seem to be at least a bit more plausible. Specifically, to the best of my knowledge no formal in universe explanation has yet been given for the Starkiller's incredible power that seems to surpass most (although arguably not all) of the other characters in the Star Wars Universe. And that is a problem.

But enough about that. I'm not going to argue with you about George Lucas and those who work under him because I'm not as knowledgable about Star Wars as I am about anime. Who knows? You may very well be right about him. But I will say that I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a former fan, or at least not yet. But if George Lucas and those who work for him keep dishing out the same kind of crap as The Force Unleashed II then I might just get there someday.

Caliostro:

A1:

You really seem to be talking about anime in too broad a sense. There is a tremendous amount of variety in anime and anime is by no means any one thing. It's many things. I'm pretty sure that even Yahtzee would agree with me on this one. And if you are describing Dragonball and Naruto as realistically inclined then I really can't say that I agree with you. For example in the very first episode of Naruto the very first thing we see is a giant demon fox and in Dragonball we have things like dinosaurs that still exist for no apparent reason and cars that you can carry around in tiny capsules. If you want realistically inclined then I would suggest titles like Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade and Monster. Now THOSE are realistically inclined.

You misunderstood me.

Yes, I know anime is very broad, I watch a lot of it myself. But anime series tend to fall prey to this, particularly "run on series", or series that are "stretched" past their original script (e.g.: Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Dragonball, to a lesser extent, and despite remaining quite good, Rurouni Kenshi...etc). Anime already tends to start off on more loose interpretations of reality, and "run-on"/"never ending" series inevitably fall prey to power scaling... And an anime that started a "a bit over the top" quickly degenerates into "ridiculous super powers world-ending abominations".

Naruto is a good example. The ninjas in Naruto start out as your typical pop culture ninja: super fast, very strong, and with quite a few "tricks" up their sleeve. You had one of two "titans", but that was it.

...Halfway through the series we're dealing with monsters that can plough through an entire city in a hit, summon sand tsunamis and assorted monsters the size of mountains, to say nothing of Itachi and the Akatsuki freaks...

Dragonball is another text book example. You start with "bordering on super human" fighters, who are considered the very elite. Songoku is some sort of super human being for his capacities, and all the other "very strong" opponents he finds tend to be conquerors or leaders of armies of some kind. And these are the very, absolute, elite best. Mostly they can punch people through a wall or two, and a leap a few duzen extra feet in the air. At one point, Goku is considered some kind of absurdly rare "chosen one" for his capacity to shoot a basic fire ball (the Kamehameha).

Things quickly spin out of control after the Piccollo saga, and by the middle of DragonBall Z we're reached a ridiculous level of fighting where artists just decided "fuck it" and fights are essentially invisible, and everyone that can't fire a fireball without thinking is some kind of retarded failure.

By the depressingly bad ending of DragonBall GT, anyone that can't destroy an entire planet with a punch on a bad day is not even worth mentioning as anything other than comic relief.

It's the whole reason I've taken to watching animes that come with a predetermined beginning, middle and end. First, because the story is far more "focused", with basically no fillers, and second because there's a lower chance of running into absurd power scaling.

That said, you mixed up the "realistic" part. Things don't have to be realistic, they have to be coherent. Lightsabers aren't "realistic", but they make sense in the universe. Being able to pull down a Star Destroyer, which, by the way, is roughly a mile long by roughly 0.6 miles wide star ship that carries around an army, with pin point precision without even moving is not.

The problem isn't being realistic or not, it's when the world defines it's own realism, then fucks it right up in favour of giving everyone super powers.

A1:
But then again consistency really doesn't seem to be George Lucas's strong point. For example Leland Chee, the person in charge of maintaining the Star Wars continuity database called Holocron, at one point outright stated that George Lucas's view of the Star Wars expanded universe was "constantly evolving".

Let me break this to you, from one one former fan to another: George Lucas is a hack.

Yes, I said that. George Lucas by himself is a clueless fucking hack. He has some good ideas, but he hasn't the slightest idea what to do with them. His original 3 movies become the gold they did because he was constantly riddled by technical limitations and a team that constantly criticized his insanity. These people kept him in check. These people went away after the first 3 movies, and were substituted by brown nosing fucks who were afraid to tell Georgy "...Yeah, this is a bad idea". On top of that, the original Star Wars were such a colossal hit that George became the prodigal "golden boy" of movie making. Nobody dared criticize him, and he somehow got the idea that he owed it all to himself... And that he could write... And didn't really need anyone else...

To top it all off, Georgy went from "underdog" to "monopoly guy". He went from being the guy with ideas nobody gave a chance to, to one of the big boys that could do anything he wanted, no matter how stupid... He developed a taste for money, and lost his interest in artistic integrity and the like...

The result is what you see today: A creatively bankrupt franchise milking old whore.

To me, Star Wars is Episodes IV, V and VI. With maybe some room for Kyle Katarn and the Jedi Knight series, and the first KOTOR. Everything else I've personally relayed to the garbage bin of "half baked fanfic author masturbation".

First let me mention that for the first part of this response I'm going to be referring to the anime stuff and not the Star Wars stuff. When I'm referring to the Star Wars stuff I'll let you know.

You still seem to be talking about anime in too broad a sense. You said "But anime series tend to fall prey to this" but a more appropriate and more accurate thing to say would have been "But SOME anime series tend to fall prey to this". And I know what you mean by "run on" series. You're talking about the ongoing, long-running titles that don't really have any predetermined length. But as far as I can tell these titles actually constitute a small minority of the anime world, hence the importance of the "SOME" I mentioned. And you also said "Anime already tends to start off" but this is also too general.

And I really don't think that describing these titles as "stretched beyond their original script" is a particularly accurate way to put it, if at all. Some time ago, Naruto creator Masashi Kishimoto stated that he had a very clear picture of how he would end the story, but he also said that it would be quite some time before he could even think of ending the story.

Furthermore, more recently One Piece creator Eiichiro Oda stated "The story is mainly about only 5 characters, but there are so many things I want to do that it ended up being the way it is now.". He also mentioned that from the beginning the ending of the story hasn't changed.

These stories don't really seem to have any "original script" at all.

And I'm also not sure saying "halfway through the series" with regard to Naruto is accurate either. If memory serves Kishimoto did mention a while ago that the story was about 20% finished. With regard to that statistic I'm not sure where we would even be today.

I'm really not exactly sure what your problem with power-scaling is. I don't see how it's incoherent. For instance in the case of Dragonball one of the main themes in that title was, by all accounts, getting stronger. Something that Goku in particular was always trying to do. Therefore the increasingly incredible feats performed by him and the other characters would seem to be a perfectly understandable result, especially considering that realism was apparently never much of a concern to begin with.

And with "At one point, Goku is considered some kind of absurdly rare "chosen one" for his capacity to shoot a basic fire ball (the Kamehameha)." I'm not sure where you're getting this from as Master Roshi was the one who first used the Kamehameha wave and Goku learned it afterward. Furthermore, not long after that Krilin and Yamcha both learned it with relative ease. And Master Roshi did indeed marvel at the rise of this new and more powerful generation of fighters. And of course in the story of Naruto Kakuzu lamented being defeated by "kids" and Kakashi responded by saying that it's natural for a previous generation to be surpassed by a new one.

With regard to the ANIME part of this conversation, I'm not really sure where this incoherence you speak of is. Master Roshi obliterated a mountain, and even the moon itself, early on in Dragonball. In Bleach, super powerful characters like Byakuya Kuchiki, Captain Yamamoto, Sosuke Aizen, Kisuke Urahara, and others were all introduced early on. It's the same with Naruto with the early introduction of the super powerful nine tailed fox as well as Naruto's ability to tap into it's incredible power. It's also established early on that Naruto has exceptionally large Chakra reserves. There were also the early introductions of super powerful characters like Kakashi Hatake, Hiruzen Sarutobi (the third Hokage), Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Gaara, and Kimimaro.

Needless to say becoming stronger does by all accounts seem to be a common theme in shounen manga. Or in other worlds going from zero to super. Therefore in that vein there wouldn't seem to be any real incoherence because the high levels of power later demonstrated serve as an understandable result of the paths that the characters set themselves on. And of course the possibilities or potentials are established early on.

I realize that this may come off as rude and I'm sorry about that. But I'm not so sure if the issue is "the world" defining it's own realism so much as it is you yourself defining the world's realism. Or in other worlds in the case of at least most of the shounen manga titles mentioned it seems that it doesn't seem to be that things go too far to fit into the established universe, just that they may go too far to fit into the way that you personally see, or perhaps would like to see, the established universe. That being said I get the impression, partially from your use of words like absurd and ridiculous, that "the ultimate problem" (which would essentially seem to be the problem that you personally have with the aforementioned titles) that you mention actually is essentially that things simply go too far. Or at least too far for some people.

HOWEVER. All of this is with regard to all of the anime stuff and not the Star Wars stuff.

With regard to the Star Wars stuff the incoherence notion does seem to be at least a bit more plausible. Specifically, to the best of my knowledge no formal in universe explanation has yet been given for the Starkiller's incredible power that seems to surpass most (although arguably not all) of the other characters in the Star Wars Universe. And that is a problem.

But enough about that. I'm not going to argue with you about George Lucas and those who work under him because I'm not as knowledgable about Star Wars as I am about anime. Who knows? You may very well be right about him. But I will say that I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a former fan, or at least not yet. But if George Lucas and those who work for him keep dishing out the same kind of crap as The Force Unleashed II then I might just get there someday.

EDIT: Sorry about the double post. My mistake.

Ascarus:

ProtoChimp:

Caliostro:
Fuck you George, you mentally bankrupt whorehopper.

Ladies and gentlemen I present the quote of the week.

i like to say that nobody hates their fans quite as much as george lucas does.

I'm of the opinion that people who talk about Lucas have some inappropriate vision of him. Like he used to be some large visionary with artistic goals to span the ages or something. Personally, I think he was always a business man. I don't think he ever really cared about Star Wars aside from how profitable it could be, and every action he's taken since has been to capitalize on that profitability.

So yeah I don't think he gives a shit about fans, he only cares about customers. Pretty sure he was like that to start and will be that way to the end.

Bobic:
You complain that those bosses are too big yet a few weeks ago you praised shadow of the colossus. I see a little inconsistency in your ramblings.

Yeah, and I see an inability to understand theme and context in yours...=/

Not one to defend Yahtzee but he has a valid point here.

Sir John the Net Knight:

Akalabeth:

Sir John the Net Knight:

Now we see the point of the whole cloning nonsense. Boba Fett is a clone, Starkiller is cloned and reborn. Lucas has introduced cloning as freaking retcon white-out. And when these new Star Wars films come out supposedly set thousands of years in the future. What? Emperor Palpatine? They cloned him?

They already cloned palpatine in the books, long before the prequels ever came out.

You know, I actually know that, and I thought it was a stupid idea then. There's no lamer idea in literature than bringing back a dead villain through cloning. Of course, George "Hack Writer from Hell" Lucas. Thinks it's a great idea, and that's all you need to know.

To be fair, I don't think George Lucas had anything to do with TFU2 or the Thrawn trilogy.
But the prequels suffer from what Yahtzee is mentioning as well. Everything is over the top, blown up and far less meaningless.

Even the old video games had the same problem. In Tie Fighter, one of the more revered games you start off in a lowly Tie Fighter and at the end you're in a Missile Boat destroying an entire Rebel fleet by your own. I never finished those last few missions because I frankly didn't give it a shit.

For that same reason I'll never buy TFU2. I don't mind star wars but this over the top Jedi are superhero shit is friggin boring.

No such thing as characters or events being too awesome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurren_Lagann

That anime goes way beyond any video game I played for sheer awesomeness and yet is still awesome. If something seems to be too awesome then it truly isn't awesome.

But come to think of it, this may not apply to already established franchises such as Star Wars but whatever...

Bobic:
You complain that those bosses are too big yet a few weeks ago you praised shadow of the colossus. I see a little inconsistency in your ramblings.

Yes, but you do feel insignificant fighting those giant objects. They feel massive. The ground shakes when they walk. They try to shake you off like a bug pestering them. They are given scale within the world.

Sir John the Net Knight:

You know what I miss? Dark Forces. You know the one star wars game that doesn't have any Jedi nonsense. Where you shoot stormtroopers with blaster rifles and throw thermal detonators at them? Seriously, that was a fun game. Why has the "non-Jedi" aspect of the Star Wars universe been so dismissed? Where are the stories about Han, Chewie, Lando, Boba Fett and Jabba the Hutt?

Wait, don't do that Lucas. You'll just f**k it up.

Ever played Republic Commando/read the Republic Commando books? No lightsabers, only you, three squad mates, and a whole lot of droids and trandoshans to kill. In the game, there's a hidden lightsaber, which the player character scoffs at. The books go so far as to paint the Jedi into a gray area, lending a VERY needed air of ambiguity to the Star Wars canon.
But, Lucas did a retcon to better fit the new TV series, so nothing in the books happened and the series can't continue.
But I agree, there needs to be more games that focus on people other than lightsaber weilders.
Dark forces and republic commando (maybe the original Battlefront). That only makes 3 out of Lucas knows how many jedi games.

OT: Things can be over top awesome. Branching out things= okay. Destroying canon to make him(her) completely dominate? Fun, but not okay. Things need an anchor to reality.

F-I-D-O:

OT: Things can be over top awesome. Branching out things= okay. Destroying canon to make him(her) completely dominate? Fun, but not okay. Things need an anchor to reality.

Not reality. A reality. Fiction needs internal coherence.
The problem I've always had with Dragonball is that characters that can literally punch through a planet always seemed to be scared of guns or get hurt by getting hit over the head with a piece of wood. They could move from place to place almost instantly, and yet there were several times where they took forever to get somewhere. Not to mention shit like "The planet is going to explode in five minutes!", then you get to see three episodes of filler/fighting that's supposed to happen in those five minutes.
It's fine to have dragons in your book, but you have to decide if they're biological beings or magical creatures.

Was the part about an Italian violinist a reference to something I've never heard of, or just a general reference to the Italian-waiter-with-a-violin archetype? 'Cause I thought that only works if you're supposed to be in an Italian restaurant.

While I do agree with most of your points (and I haven't even played the game, this is just going off of what I've read and seen of them) I can't believe that nobody has commented on something I remember seeing on G4 a year or so before TFU came out.

There was this interview with someone from the Dev team and he talks about how something caused the Force to go out of control. That was their justification as to why Starkiller is so strong. I know it's not a very good reasoning (considering, why didn't the Sith just use this opportunity to crush the rebels or vice-versa) but it is at least a reason.

Also, for GOW3, while what Kratos did may not have been believable, I still had a lot of fun killing that giant horse/scorpion thing.

Couldn't agree with this article more.
Films & games media are always finest when grounded in reality.

Caliostro:
Anime is a good example of this... Particularly stuff like Naruto or Dragonball that suffer through abusive levels of power scaling, to the point where the "bit over the top fun fights" get mutilated into "meaninglessand absurd dick measuring clusterfucks".

If you consider Naruto to be over the top, you may want to avoid Gurenn Lagann or Bobobobobo-Iforgethowtospellit.

I understand what Yahtzee is getting at. I mean, think about it. What makes these scenes in The Lost Crusade and the like more impressive than anything we've seen in recent media? The answer is just like Yahtzee said: it's classic one-upmanship. It's like some one is proclaiming, "O Ya! Itz ubar-epic!!!!111! Leet haxxors!!! let me tries!" They don't really know why it's epic. They don't even try to understand; they just know it is and for that reason, they try make up the rough equivalent of their own digital penis and try measuring up.

We, on the other hand, are treating to a spectacle that is, in a metaphorical sense, the guy watching one man successfully perform an impressive feat along the lines of jumping five people on a bicycle without landing on any of them. He'll think he can do that, no problem! He has the intellect level of at least a fifth grader and the ability to ride a bicycle! So he'll try to jump seven people and of course, the whole event will leave his fragile male pride in a similar state as the broken bones of some of his poor hospitalized jumpees.

His failing point is that he didn't stop to think that maybe the reason WHY the first guy succeeded was because he practiced, and even then, no one likes a copycat. We'll sympathize with those hurt, but we feel nothing towards the idiot, if not some measure of scorn.

The main reason why these 'smaller' instances impress is because they deliver the kind of tension that drives us crazy. Yahtzee's hobo had him at an inch of his life, yet that God of War monster was already up against an even worse monster: Kratos. Even if they make these large monsters, unless you deliver some kind of tension, give us reason to perceive them as an overwhelming threat, the only response they merit is, "Okay. And?"

In Indiana Jones case, in relating to the tank, we feel tension because he's on the verge of suffering the same fate as a JRPG in Yahtzee's possession: to be flattened, tossed aside, and maybe shot full of holes, if Yahtzee and the Nazis have the time. It's why the whole event is remembered so clearly.

In the end, it's important not to try to show other people up, especially since other people's opinions are so subjective. If you want to produce something to impress people, try to forget everything you ever once thought of as epic and think of something you can do and focus on that. Don't be the guy who shattered four clavicles (yes, I know what a clavicle is) and two pelvic bones.

Total agreement here.

Caliostro:

Sir John the Net Knight:

Now we see the point of the whole cloning nonsense. Boba Fett is a clone, Starkiller is cloned and reborn. Lucas has introduced cloning as freaking retcon white-out. And when these new Star Wars films come out supposedly set thousands of years in the future. What? Emperor Palpatine? They cloned him?

*facepalm*

Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't simply clone either an army of Starkiller or an army of Darth Vaders.

Why build an army of Jango Fetts when you could build an army of guy that can crush an AT-ST by waving his hand?

My friend actually pointed something out akin to this last weekend. He said:

"You know how Palpatine is constantly trying to replace Vader since Vader got all slow and cyborg-y?"

"Yeah."

"Why doesn't he just off the old fuck and clone a new Anakin?"

I was speechless for hours.

But yeah, I knew TFU2 was going to be shit as soon as I saw the commercials for it. This was one of the few times you could honestly judge the game by a cg-rendered commercial(s). The first I saw was the one where he does the big wave of death and disintegrates a good amount of stormtroopers, after he was force-choking them all with a simple gesture. It made me feel confused and irritated, but it has nothing on the second.

Of course, I am referring to the commercial where Vader is blown through, like, 5 foot-long, steel walls. He gets up, not a scratch on him, and shows to be no wear for worse. THIS WAS THE MOST HEINOUS BULLSHIT I'VE EVER SEEN. I actually hate it. Like, HATE it. Who thought this made any sense!? WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING!?

The fight at the end of RotJ was the best. :(

I forgot:

TiefBlau:

I forgot:

Actually, I kind of dread that day because he's still an amateur at game criticism. Almost all of his works are filled with fallacies, even now.
The problem with both of these cases is that they don't want to put fear, they want to empower. You're not supposed to be afraid with Kratos because he's a god killer with amazing strength. Plus, he's comparing this to Condemned, which is a Horror game. No duh you're more likely to be afraid. He misses the point of these games. I want to know what gave him the idea that a game where you beat up monsters, gods and titans wanted to instill fear?

If he's an amateur, you're not even in scratching distance of him.
Horror game or not, you want to feel your emotions evoked, to find yourself in front of a challenge that you may be apprehensive to approach. You have to be realistic and relatable if you want the player to feel even remotely connected to the characters and the process at hand. Games that pride themselves as ridiculous don't have to deal with this. Saints Row 2's reckless abandon of realism and Team Fortress 2's charming art style can attest to this. But any game that wants to have a semblance of realistic struggle needs to have some sense of scope. "Empowerment"? Hardly. Whatever empowerment God of War 3 grants is easily offset by the amount of detachment to the game you feel once you become to powerful.

To put this into perpective, can you imagine playing Grand Theft Auto 4 as the mayor of SimCity? No, you can't. You can't imagine that kind of gritty realism when you're conjuring up tornadoes. The struggles in Max Payne become laughable. When you're a god among men, there are no interesting men.

Seriously, I think you're just mad because of what I said about Yahtzee. In a way, I'm not even disagreeing with you (you don't get a sense of apprehension from Kratos because he's so damn strong) so I don't know who you're responding to. If this was about a game like Dead Space, I'd find nothing wrong with his point. I only found something wrong with his example and him insinuating that games should be more realistic.

I'm as mad as you're pretending not to be, smartass.
And you're missing the point. A good struggle needs to be not only interesting, but understandable. You take down ships of unfathomable size in Force Unleashed 2, to the extent at which you just don't care anymore, and the kind of emotions you intended to evoke is missed completely as you take them down Star Destroyers like anything else. Where do you go from there? Lifting a star fighter out of a swamp looks pretty fuckin' wimpy in comparison. You just overshadowed an entire franchise's worth of scope just to impress someone for thirty seconds. It's called moderation, and that game doesn't have it. You don't need to pull a rabbit out of your ass to impress people. Jules from Pulp Fiction can do it with a gun and a random bible verse. He didn't kill a spaceship; he just showed complexity of character. There is a time and a place for everything. And that "everything" is not interchangeable with "Deus Ex Machina".

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