The Big Picture: The Devil & Mr. Parker

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Ahem... Spiderman is a crappy superhero.

/thread

I have to agree on the reason comics struggle; they really are wierd and crappy. Apart from some Deadpool (who specifically takes the piss out of comics), I've never got into Marvel beyond films and animated TV. Even DC don't do any better (though they seem less bizarre), I tried to read 'classics' like The Dark Knight Returns but just got... bored by comic book style. Yet I can happily read Judge Dredd and have dipped my toe into the Sinister/Dexter world (juries still out), so maybe it's a stylistic difference between British and US comics I just don't enjoy?

I was never able to get into comics, American comics at least. Manga, on the other hand.....yeah. I like it.

I am loving this. Glad Escapist actually asked him to do these kind of things, more MovieBob, the better if you ask me. ;)

The thing is, I knew about this, and I was more pissed off about Spider-Man actually agreeing make a deal with the devil when he's supposed to be a noble hero or some junk. Also, why's Harry Osborn alive again?

Apparently, the only explanation they gave was "It's magic, we don't have to explain it!" And that pisses me off more than anything, they they can just DO THAT and get away with it like nothing.

Going to the topic, the reason nobody reads comics that have mainstream movie licenses is because they suck, are stupid and are hermetic. Specially now a days where it seems anything marvel touches turns into a torrent of flies. When you have a character pass trough different teams constantly and never give any real closure to them, this bloat happens and they need to do fresh stuff without breaking the status quo, reason why we end with the crapfest that the mainstream comic market currently is.

This of course does not apply to creator productions or short stories with a well planned arc, there is a reason why the Vertigo line is so well respected and there are loads of indi comics miles better than the marvel and DC rehashes, hell, the reason manga works better than comics is again because of the self contained stories, they are stories that will end someday and are always under the control of the same creator making them keep a clear focus or at the very least, not go to the crapper as quickly as today's arcs.

There's no rhyme or reason to who Spiderman is nowadays, this is a nightmare I hope they could wake him from. But that'd be yet another retcon, wouldn't it? They should've taken the Ben Reilly route. Really. Leave an older, retired spiderman move on and have a family and a let younger one keep on swinging.

The endemic problem of comic books is that they cannot ever end. This and the need to make a shock theater of the proceedings, constantly trying upstage what the competition does.

That's why I've given up on the mainstream and only read self contained stories.

who says the devil has to be completely evil all the time? didnt he already say that the devil was more of a trickster in religious literature anyway?

Frankly Im to busy enjoying the Marvel Adventures line to care about what's going down 616 wise.

also I never really liked Mary Jane. Really all I remember her ever doing was sitting around in lingerie, drinking and worrying during the 90s. Im not saying it's not proper for her to worry, I am saying she knew what she was in for when she married the guy.

I do agree that the deal with Mephisto is a little up in the air (may be too much of a fan to mind) but I call a big fat BULLSHIT about the fact that while those 2 were married, the stories kept getting stale. Was 'The Other' storyline stale? Nope. The Second Molten Man? Maximum Carnage? Torment? Venom's 1st appearance? Coming Home? Happy Birthday? Acts Of Vengeance?

I will join the angels' side and say that things COULD and SHOULD have been resolved in another way when the dissolving of the Parkers and Aunt May's death is concerned but Bob's opinion about the stories has more holes than Spongebob.

gusplaysmagic:
Ahem... Spiderman is a crappy superhero.

Says who? A troll who has absolutely nothing to offer to a conversation?

Because the writers are old, they forget that there's a third option that's better than married spidey and single spidey combined: Teenaged spidey.

Right... ok fun to know.

...

I demand a rename this of this entire video series. The Big Picture? Because how Marvel retconed Spidey's marriage is the hot topic on the lips of today's generation?

Banal Facts About Bob's Nerdy Hobbies. hrrm not much of a ring, work on it.

Linkara didn't like this either, and really this was a massive brainfart for both sides IMO

Interesting points... but the comic still sucks. Let's run through it, shall we?

1: Aunt May gets shot, and no one can fix a freaking bullet wound?! There's a guy in the X-Men who can heal any injury for crying out loud!

2: Mephisto wants Peter and MJ's marriage...why?! Maybe if they gave a specific reason... But I doubt it's a good one...

3: Also, I'm pretty sure Mephisto is mainly a Ghost Rider villain not a Spider-man villain. (Even if they have met before.)

4: Okay, so no one remembers who Spider-man is... does that include characters like Venom, who knew his identity long before the world did? (And no, I haven't read the comic, nor would I ever want to.)

5. My biggest problem with the comic is that Spiderman, a heroic character, makes a freaking deal with the devil just because some prick didn't like him being married?!

So, let's sum it all up: Spidey went and traded a loving marriage just to be with his geriatic aunt, by making a deal with the devil...

In the words of the great comic book reviewer Linkara: "Joe Quesada, YOU! ARE! A! HACK!

I don't think I can forgive Marvel for this travesty, esecially when it happened to one of my favorite comic book characters. So fuck you, Joe Quesada, and thanks for ruining Spiderman for everyone.

"With great power comes gresat responsbility" my foot.

FUN FACT: Apparently, one of the ways the much-aligned "Clone Saga" was to end was by having Mephisto somehow involved.

Yeah... hindsight's a bitch, ain't it?

Hey Bob, if you happen to have a list of toppics to discuss in this show, even if you put my suggestion at the bottom of such list, I would really like to hear your point of view between comic books and manga. The good and bad things that come from franchices that never end, go from writer to writer and mostly consist of the so called super hero who gets some power in a very convenient way (cursed with awesome), and franchices created and ended almost always by the same person (or group) and about 50% are "shonen" who have increasingly started to rely on unnecesary underage fanservice.
I think I have yet to hear you talk about manga, don't even really know if you read any. But I heard you talk about some intresting things from Japan so please consider my request.

So... that's it? Three minutes of telling what happened and then it just ends? Did the Escapist make you cut out the several minutes of you telling your opinion on the whole mess because they were sick of people arguing on the forum or something?

I'm debating between which is the worse Spidey retcon. This, or the one with the Spider God...

CrazyGirl17:
4: Okay, so no one remembers who Spiderman is... does that include characters like Venom, who knew his identity long before the world did? (And no, I haven't read the comic, nor would I ever want to.)

Yep, that includes everyone (except Mary Jane, for some magic reason). Until of course Peter ends up revealing his identity to the entirety of the Avengers and Fantastic Four within a year anyways. And as he explains it (how he knows I have no idea), as soon as he reveals his identity to them they will automatically remember having known his identity before. Oy!

All in all this was Quesada waving a magic wand and changing everything he didn't like about the comic: the marriage, Harry's death, the new, stupid powers, etc. Retcons can be done well, this one wasn't.

I have been enjoying comic-books (and spider-man) since before i could read, hell i had a good grip on the English language when i was 6. I have read all the essentials and even the clone saga (both of them), and guess what? OMD does not bother me in the slightest, i do not care if 20 years of marriage (most of the stories were HUGE fucking drags, i am looking at you JMS). A little blank slate when it comes to spider-mans love-life is actually a good thing.

The post-OMD spider-man is actually pretty fun, JMS's last years on spider-man made me cancel my subscription and it was only when i read the new spider-man that i decided to renew it. All in all, despite the massive butt-hurt over OMD, spidey came out pretty well on this and i for one, am glad that it happened.

And thats why I dont really read western comics. I would be all to willing to read a Spiderman inderpendant series (with a start and finish) but the actual overall comic, no thank you. Thats why I userly stick with manga as the Japanese reading audience tend to be a fickle bunch and most series are lucky to get past 100 chapters. The same goes for anime, most dont go beyond 30 episodes. Still this can also be a massive drawback with sudden endings or even cancelations.

katsabas:
I do agree that the deal with Mephisto is a little up in the air (may be too much of a fan to mind) but I call a big fat BULLSHIT about the fact that while those 2 were married, the stories kept getting stale. Was 'The Other' storyline stale? Nope. The Second Molten Man? Maximum Carnage? Torment? Venom's 1st appearance? Coming Home? Happy Birthday? Acts Of Vengeance?

I will join the angels' side and say that things COULD and SHOULD have been resolved in another way when the dissolving of the Parkers and Aunt May's death is concerned but Bob's opinion about the stories has more holes than Spongebob.

gusplaysmagic:
Ahem... Spiderman is a crappy superhero.

Says who? A troll who has absolutely nothing to offer to a conversation?

DUDE, DONT FEED IT!!!

This was awesome!

It completely caught what I always found the most annoying abou long running comicseries: the WTH?-moments.

I laughed the whole video long:)

I only avoided superhero comics because I fear that I'm going to have to go back to the forties or something and read all the comics from the very beginning... Ugh.

Kimarous:
Yeah, um... watch the #2 pick in the following video (about 25:55). It outlines all the problems with One More Day.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/27731-at4w-top15comicsineverreview

First video I thought of.

i got back into comics because bob did the escape to the movies Avengers episode. it seems like that paid off because now i knew everything that happened to spiderman before watching this video. thanks bob, i love comics

actually m.j remembered the deal

lolwut.

Your movie reviews are pointed and provacative.

These pieces too often stray from their thesises. Rather than discussing WHY comic books are weird, you just launched into a tangent about the Mephisto/Spider-Man thing. Why didn't you just make that your thesis statement? Because it happened (in comic book time) ages ago? I appreciate that you've been given free reign to rant, but could you at least make your arguments more direct and salient?

And could you please cut back on those back and white heads? They're fun, but their overuse understimulates me during a video blurb.

When shit goes that far south I always like to hit the reset button and start over. Solves all of life's problems.

I like the series so far. It teaches me interessting things about nerddom I am too young to have witnessed myself.

But I have to second the motion about the faces. They get a bit stale.

Uh, okay? When the video started I believed you were going to discuss why comics didn't sell and how the industry might turn itself around in your own view. But then you spiraled into a tangent about Spider Man and some devil and a retcon. I didn't get anything out of your video other than 4 minutes of you re-explaining a controversial story that everyone discussed looong ago.

I just read the hulk comics because... well... HULK SMASH!
And it also means I don't have to bother with any of the intertangled web of the universes, which is what I think puts others off of the comics. Think about the back story of the marvel universe. Go onto the Marvel Wikia and then search for something you don't know about or just start clicking links. (if you do know marvel then just try and suspend your marvel-ness and look at it like a noob would)
Time yourself and see how long it takes you to get lost.
A shiney cookie goes to the person who lasts longer than 5 minutes.
I did this for three nights straight and still got confused with all the inter-mingling story lines and plots despite reading everything I could see from start to finish.
And its not because its a finely crafted work of art. Its because its a mess.
A well made story is like a spiders web, linking points between strong individual strands.
From my perspective the Marvel universe is like someone grabbed several spiderwebs, layered them one on top of another and rolled them into a ball.
Can you imagine trying to get into that as a new comer? Nearly impossible. The problem with these universes is that they are too big too get into. Too big for their own good.
Its like if I told someone to get into the Forgotten Realms world in DnD.
One of the world's main good guys has 20+ 300+ page novels for himself. Not to mention a few cameos and then there are satellite groups and entirely new works to expand the world.
The reason people favour the movies is because they provide a quick in and out into the world. Enough to entertain them but not enough to confuse them.
Its also the reason why hardcore fanboys hate the movies of the characters they love. They love the small details and intricacies that have to be left out too get the movie to a wider audience without being a three hour epic.

Just my view on all this.

Wow, I thought Bob was going to talk more about the upcoming Spiderman film, that retcon's the past three films, and do some more well deserved bashing to it. Well, hearing him talk about One More Day was ok as well.

But as for One More Day, I agree with a lot of that fans that the whole thing was an ass pull. To be honest, I've kind of gotten used to Peter Parker being married to Mary Jane. Heck, I was hoping that sometime they would have a kid, and we'd see what it would be like for him to be a superhero and a new dad to a kid he had with a hot supermodel (and no, the Spidergirl comic alternate universe doesn't count, as it's not a part of the official Marvel universe and Peter Parker quit the superhero business in that countinuity). If they did that, maybe we'd see some new interesting story decisions and plots. But no, the creators of the comic are so attached to the glory old days of Spiderman being single, having problems with various love interests, and their own personal dislike for MJ despite fans mostly liking her, that they had to retcon the whole marriage thing to make themselves happy. Maybe sometime in the near future, they'll retcon it again and have the two married once more. With a kid on the way and an expy of Quesada being killed in the comic when it happens, or Mephisto posing as an expy of Quesada getting his butt kicked somehow to force him into undoing the whole crap.

Necromancer1991:
Linkara didn't like this either, and really this was a massive brainfart for both sides IMO

Linakra's a screechy voiced tool, who knows jack shit about anything but pretends to be an expert while hiding behind bad early 90s image comics and free hand outs

Personally, I despised OMD because it completely reversed the growth of the characters to 20 years ago. If they wanted to end the marriage, here's and idea: Mephisto offers to undo the past, but Peter refuses. Aunt May dies, and true to his character, Peter blames himself and is inconsolable. He feels that his choices have destroyed his and MJ's lives. He becomes distant and eventually pushes MJ out of his life entirely. I'm thinking that then she either leaves him (which is kinda what he's after) or he divorces her in the hope that she can still salvage her life after Tony Stark realizes that they are separated. This would allow Marvel to continue to move the story forward without resorting to the idiotic "magic retcon". Spidey would still have to deal with the consequences of his choices, his relationship with his superhero peers (particularly Stark) wouldn't be just wiped away, and he would get to keep his evolved powers like the organic webs and stingers. Because honestly, spider-man was about to go places it never had before and Quesada decided that would be a bad thing. Moron.

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