The Big Picture: The Devil & Mr. Parker

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Well I like Brand new day better than anything else spidey-related in the 200s, so I don't even care. Marvel has done weirder things. Getting Brand new day was worth it, I like peter more now that he doesn't have everything together again.

MrhalfAwake:

Necromancer1991:
Linkara didn't like this either, and really this was a massive brainfart for both sides IMO

Linakra's a screechy voiced tool, who knows jack shit about anything but pretends to be an expert while hiding behind bad early 90s image comics and free hand outs

Your point being what exactly, it's not like we pay to watch his videos, and besides he's still entertaining as hell, secondly what does that have to do with this? Really though I mean the whole event is just stupid IMO, I mean hell he actually talks to Aunt May after she dies and she tells him NOT to revive her.

Oh how I fucking LOATHE Joe Quesada, I don't care if I spelt that twat's name wright or wrong.

Yeah I think it would have been more interesting if Mifisto let Aunt May and Peter remmember everything. So that way Aunt May could commit suicide over the knowledge of what Peter had done for her life. leaving Peter to wallow in self pity just in time for Mifisto to show up and mock and him with Aunt Mays soul. That sounds more like the kind of thing the devil would do.

Mephisto's not technically the Devil. He's just one of 4 evolved primordial powers.... Or something like that.

He pretends to be what we call the devil. But he has like 3 other brothers. One of which is called 'Satanish' if memory serves. Although it's kinda hinted at that he either impersonated him for a long time or that he's just a persona he created.

It's a long and complicated story.

But any way he's just based on the 17th century French demon 'Mephistopholese'.

the big picture had its lens cap on.
Finally one that I could enjoy, here's an interesting bit bob, if you could write something off that was two peoples happiest moments, with no cost to yourself, and a slight gain to them, would you? I know I would. People tend to underplay marriage a lot, just remember that a lot of people DON'T think like you do and many DON'T consider it a ball and chain. I can really see why Mephisto would want to destroy the marriage though.

Couldn't they just kill him off like CA?

Wow, I had no idea Mephisto was such a moron. Remind me to make a deal with him sometime.

Necromancer1991:

MrhalfAwake:

Necromancer1991:
Linkara didn't like this either, and really this was a massive brainfart for both sides IMO

Linakra's a screechy voiced tool, who knows jack shit about anything but pretends to be an expert while hiding behind bad early 90s image comics and free hand outs

Your point being what exactly, it's not like we pay to watch his videos, and besides he's still entertaining as hell, secondly what does that have to do with this? Really though I mean the whole event is just stupid IMO, I mean hell he actually talks to Aunt May after she dies and she tells him NOT to revive her.

Id find Hell far more entertaining than someone spout memes and steal other peoples gags

The main issue with comics is they lack integrity. Any shift in sales or trends and characters can be killed, brought back or changed to the whim of an editor. It is only a matter of time before any super hero endures a arc or period that is poor. One More Day shows, simply put, that events you read in comics often lack any importance or consequence because "magic" can be used to wipe any slate clean. Why would anyone care about what they're reading when the people producing it don't?

With the high popularity of Linkara's videos, it is surprising that you felt that this topic needed to be covered. Since One More Day is a running joke now.

Two things I wanted to say:

1) I wish this video was more than a summary of what happened and the reaction, because I think "One More Day" cuts into a lot of what's wrong with the comics industry. Marvel's collective reaction to the marriage since it's inception has been strange at best, and downright toxic at worst. It's resulted in no less than 3(!!) of the most critically reviled storylines in the character's history (Clone Saga, the Mackie-Byrne run from '99-'00, and One More Day itself), hampered at least two great runs on the character (Paul Jenkins, who had the unfortunate task of cleaning up after Mackie-Byrne, only to get side-swiped a few years later by the runup to One More Day, which ruined J. Michael Strackyzinski's run more directly), and did more long-term damage to the character than just letting the marriage be would have. It's also showed how lazy, possibly emotionally challenged, the editors and most of the writers really are in that they're unable/unwilling to come up with interesting stories based around a married couple (which isn't that hard if you actually get relationships), or at least write a decent story about splitting them up that wasn't convoluted or reeked of editorial gimmickery. Which brings me to...

...2) It's even more telling that when Joe Quesada was asked on Newsarama why, considering his rather public hatred of the marriage, he didn't just simply have a story that ended with Peter and MJ's divorce, he replied, and I quote:

[D]ivorcing them to me sends out completely the wrong message. Imagine you're a mom and you're buying little Bobby or little Betty Spidey Adventures or maybe Spidey Loves MJ and you're watching the news one day and the broadcaster looks right at you and says, 'Spider-Man is getting divorced, more on that after these messages.' Let's just say that as a parent, I'd be upset by the sound bite, I could only imagine how the rest of the world would feel".

And also said to CBR:

Sure, divorce is a reality of life, but Peter Parker and Spider-Man are not the types of characters that would do that. Spider-Man is a worldwide icon and is considered one of the good guys, like Superman.

So, let me get this straight, Mr. Quesada: having two adults who may have loved each other at one point, but don't anymore for whatever reason do the responsible thing and end a relationship 'sends the wrong message,' and imply that only 'bad guys' get divorces, but having them make a deal with the Devil is perfectly fine!? Speaking as the son of a woman who has twice divorced, I find this mindset way more offensive than two fictional characters getting a divorce (and I'm agnostic, what do you think fundamentalist Christians would think of this?). In fact, since the Spider-Man comics, to say nothing of Marvel in general, have a history of tackling drugs, politics, racism, the plight of the poor and so many other tough subjects, a divorce would have fit in pretty well with the kind of stories that Marvel used to do well. Marvel editorial's decision to not go there shows them for the toothless hacks they really are.

PedroSteckecilo:
Personally I blame Civil War, but then again it and House of M pretty much undid all the comics I'd been reading since I started reading comics again (around 2000, 2001) so all these retcons were a big "Fuck You" to the stories I'd been reading for 5 years, you know THE STORIES I WAS READING WHEN I EFFECTIVELY STARTED READING COMICS, hence I cried "well fuck this" and stopped reading comics.

Good on you Marvel

I'm sorry you gave up on comics. I got back into comics because of Marvel's output from 2000-2005, and felt the same frustration in the years since. I just instead switched to more indie books (like Chew, easily the best comic I've read in a long time), so there are options if you ever want to get back into the medium.

Well proving once again why I stopped reading Marvel and DC comics a LOOOOONG time ago. These companies have proven once again that they are all hacks that couldn't write a decent human story to save their collective rear ends. Man I hate retcons and reboots so much.

I liked The Scarlet Spider...

I didn't read OMD myself, heard a lot second hand, so please pardon any stupidity on my part:

All the way through what I heard about OMD, I was expecting Mephisto to reveal that Aunt May had some sort of terminal disease that was going to kill her in 24 hours so all Peter's idiotic deal-making did was buy her "one more day" - a day he now had to decide if he was going to spend with the wife he was losing forever or the mother-figure he was losing forever. That is the sort of epic-level ironic-Hell dick move I expect out of Satan, whether or not he's subbed out for Mephisto or Asmodeus or Folger's Crystals or something.

Because that was about the only thing that would've made sense: A sort of morality play about how obsession and inability to let go leads to greater loss. Especially the way JMS wrote the thing, which even being retold second-hand oozes of "I was forced to write this, I think it's stupid too."

First of all, I thought we had "Ultimate Spiderman" because people wanted a younger, single, more approachable hero, not one mired in 40 years of continuity; but as the Ultimate Universe got off message (it pretty much looks like regular marvel, with more grit and swearing, and a few male characters now female), I guess they felt the need to retcon.

Part of the problem, at least from what I've seen in Marvel, is this need for a "Blockbuster" event every year or so. Just in recent memory you had the Avengers break up, reform with different "aka popular" members, only to break up during the Civil War. Then, while that was winding down, you had Secret Invasion, which lead directly to Dark Reign (villians acting as heroes, under Norman Osborn), which brings us to the Heroic era.
Not included in that was "House of M", which was an attempt to correct the "mutants will be the dominate species in 100 years" that was comingout of the X books, and World War Hulk, which brought us a very angry Hulk (and hulk spinoffs, like Red Hulk and She-Redhulk). Oh, and there as a TON of changes in space in the marvel universe. For a while, it seemed that marvel was destroying itself and recreating it every year. You can't do that with a static continuity. So, there was a need to hit at least one "RESET" button EVERY time they did it.

And if you think this whole Spiderman thing is crap, you should see all the Retcon they've done to Wolverine: at one point, it was believed he was raised by wolverines! (and don't get a die hard X fan started on "Bone Claws"!

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's not so much that comics are weird, they're just...bad. They're the textbook example of the schizophrenic morass which happens when you let long-form episodic serial drama drag on with no particular plan (coughLostcough).

The fact that they're all jarringly forced together into a single batshit-ridiculous universe with serious fundamental tonal, mechanical, and thematic schisms separating their source materials only compounds matters into a cosmic fictional clusterfuck of epic proportions. Picking up books by the Big Two anymore is like watching a train crash in slow motion FOREVER. ...although I'll admit their recent adaptations of Stephen King stuff and other lit have been surprisingly decent.

Most of my comic/GN diet has been coming from independent teams/publishers lately. Red 5 puts out some quality books, and Atomic Robo is pretty much fantastic in every way possible. In what other comic do you get to read about a nuclear-powered robot built by Nikola Tesla teaming up with Carl Sagan to Science a time-traveling lovecraftian monster to death? Or get to see that same monster quite literally bursting out of the skull of HP Lovecraft?

Um... correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't they retcon the retcon. The Devil didn't do it, Iron Man, Doctor Strange & Reed Richards did it. They erased all of the memories of spiderman being Peter Parker, except for the memories of MJ & Peter Parker. MJ found that she just couldn't deal with the whole spiderman thing anymore... Eventually someone would figure out his ID & the cycle would start again.

do not show this to linkara...
you have been warned internet.

So this what boB does when he's not working for HYdra or being a friend/kidnap victim of deadpool helping him on his adventures

HAIL HYDRA !!! (olo)

also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7kO7J3ua9c

what he didnt even take his soul? what a chobe! XD

had a good laugh on this one :D

after reading the all three spider man comic book in one A.K.A "one more day" i think Peter Parker should have lust let go of aunt may but if so then he never forgive himself for what choice he preformed

I have very little to add to this. I agree with most people that BND is atrocious in and of itself and the way they got to it was completely ridiculous and out of character for Peter. If pretty much EVERYONE, including Aunt May, is telling him to let her go, he was not the kind of person to be so completely selfish as to choose the option he did.

Yeah that's the reason I don't read Spiderman.

Though actually I did read an interesting theory somewhere about who retained their memories from House of M versus who didn't and how it affected the marvel universe with events like the Civil War. Spiderman kept his memories of being married to Gwen Stacey and having a son, as well as a life with Uncle Ben alive. So he feels guilty for loving either women and is desperate to cling to what little he has left of his old life through Aunt May.

It also kind of explains why Tony became a huge dick.

There was another version concerning Layla Miller's powers but I can't remember how that worked.

Yeah one of the main reasons I've never gotten in to american comics is because this isn't an abnormal thing for them to do. Every few years its 'oh shit the readers want something new' and they answer that by just hitting a big reset button or jumping in to some alternate universe bs or something equally stupid, screwing up sometimes decades worth of story like they did with spidey.

Meanwhile in manga comics (the good ones anyway) a consistent story that ends, when it ends is all too common. Bleach has been running for a number of years and the 2nd last story arc just started recently and the creator is already saying it'll be nice to finally do something new and this perfectly acceptable in the japanese comics industry. They don't pull oh shit changes or alternate timeline crap, they just move on and make something new.

Johann Goethe:
The idea that a simple gunshot wound can't be solved by Dr Strange, who probably has gods as Facebook friends...

Yikes. Just imagine the status updates.

TsunamiWombat:
I don't hate BND because it erased continuity, I don't give a shit - I think every comic should have a period reboot to keep shit from getting too complex.

While it went on a tangent, I think you're missing the point as well - the opening remark was about the decline in comic sales.

Retcons are the reason. No one really wants to read a series just to have it all deemed non-canon and redone. Seems like a waste of time and money to me.

If I'm gonna read/watch/play anything, it should all be part of continuity. Unless it states it's non-canon from the get go, like the Red Alert series in C&C, or in comics' case alternate history titles like Superman: Red Son.

matthew_lane:
Um... correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't they retcon the retcon. The Devil didn't do it, Iron Man, Doctor Strange & Reed Richards did it. They erased all of the memories of spiderman being Peter Parker, except for the memories of MJ & Peter Parker. MJ found that she just couldn't deal with the whole spiderman thing anymore... Eventually someone would figure out his ID & the cycle would start again.

It was structured so that they'd BOTH still "work"... sort of.

The "mechanics" of Mephisto's deal was that he'd change one detail of the past - i.e. them getting married - and in doing so the ripple-effect would eventually lead to the the events following Civil War "working out" differently.

So while the events in O.M.I.T. have the secret identity reveal being erased by Stark, Richards and Strange and Aunt May avoiding death through a series of coincidences; the alterations are only happening in the first place because of Mephisto's influences - so even though "they" did it... The Devil STILL did it, too. In fact, most of the continuity-changing events are shown being "driven" by people (and animals) implied to be Mephisto in disguise.

MrhalfAwake:

Necromancer1991:

MrhalfAwake:

Linakra's a screechy voiced tool, who knows jack shit about anything but pretends to be an expert while hiding behind bad early 90s image comics and free hand outs

Your point being what exactly, it's not like we pay to watch his videos, and besides he's still entertaining as hell, secondly what does that have to do with this? Really though I mean the whole event is just stupid IMO, I mean hell he actually talks to Aunt May after she dies and she tells him NOT to revive her.

Id find Hell far more entertaining than someone spout memes and steal other peoples gags

Again you post nothing relevant to the actual video and just rage about how much you hate Linkara, to which I reply "So what, who gives a damn if you don't like Linkara, I do and that's all that matters (to me anyway)!". Another big thing I hate about this event is the fact that they decided "Oh people knowing Spiderman's secret identity is too interesting, let's manage to sneak in a retcon along with breaking up his marriage. Why hell let's just remove all the character development that that decision to announce is identity entailed as well!"

I was out of Spider-Man for years before this but I remember hating the idea. Check that. I hated how the idea was pulled off. The rushed storyline. The fanfiction level plot device. The fanfiction level motives. Comics have enough trouble being taken seriously without that level of lazy writing. And overall it might have worked, but as you say, you aren't supposed to come out better off for dealing with the devil. As I recall there was some implication he got the soul of the baby that was killed/kidnapped at the end of the clone saga, but that still seemed cheap.

That aside, you're not the only one to think that even a small percentage of the Dark Knight viewers going into reading an issue of Batman would raise sales exponentionaly. The things is two problems aside from the normal comic stigma: fans are lazy, and writers can't write serialized stories anyway. I'll admit the fan things is sour grapes, but I got into spider-man just prior to his 30th anniversery. I didn't have the internet to tell me who Harry Osborn or Gwen Stacy were, or what the black suit was about, or the Hobgobblin's story. I figured it out on my own and took it as a challenge. Today, even with the internet in their pocket, some people just can't read a wiki page to catch up.

Not that it would matter if they did. Comic writers just suck at ongoing serialized stories. The marrage got focus because after a while you just can't suspend disbeleif that Doc Ock will kill Spider-Man, and you run out of ideas to even try and make the vulture threatening. So focus goes to peter's private life, but even that gets stale fast. I won't say it's entirely the writer's fault. That Poochie episode of the simpsons had it right in how fans get bored with the status quo, but can't stand it being changed either. Demand for stories to be bigger and have more impact rather than be stand alone has also gummed up the works (and all this doesn't get into events and crossovers forcibly altering direction). But still, they decided to pander to the base rather than letting new fans rotate in as old fans leave. That changes the necessary writing dynamic from one of episodic fun, to one that really needs to think far down the line, and with pages counts being what they are, that could go into years.

Strangely, post BND stories seem to have done it to a degree, but I don't think they needed a retcon to do it. They just needed to get their act together and get things back into suspending disbeleif in the action parts, particualry since in light of the motives of OMD/BND, we can no longer suspend disbeleif that any relationship Spidey has might work out. We know they'll make it end badly.

Weasker:
Hey Bob, if you happen to have a list of toppics to discuss in this show, even if you put my suggestion at the bottom of such list, I would really like to hear your point of view between comic books and manga. The good and bad things that come from franchices that never end, go from writer to writer and mostly consist of the so called super hero who gets some power in a very convenient way (cursed with awesome), and franchices created and ended almost always by the same person (or group) and about 50% are "shonen" who have increasingly started to rely on unnecesary underage fanservice.
I think I have yet to hear you talk about manga, don't even really know if you read any. But I heard you talk about some intresting things from Japan so please consider my request.

I'm not well-versed enough in Manga culture to really offer a full opinion on it, but my "broad sense" of it in comparison to American comic culture is that it has different versions of the same problems - i.e. American comics have too many retcons and too much static continuity; but I'm not sure how different that is from the Manga/Anime where, yes, you have "complete stories"... which then get retold with slight variation again and again. That said, I think that the "bulk digest" format of a lot of Manga - i.e. one ginormous magazine featuring multiple continuing series as opposed to multiple seperate monthly books - is the way American comics should be going in the future.

Just to clarify... I really hope this episode doesn't read as "Bob hates Comic Continuity," because that's just about the furthest thing from the the truth. Done WELL, I love the stuff. I'm the quintessential geek who loves continuity and linked-canon and universe-building. I adore the fact that Spider-Man lives in the same world as The X-Men and Ghost-Rider and whoever, that "their" version of Earth is visited by aliens on a near-weekly basis, that if The Punisher goes for a boat ride he may run into someone the race of amphibious Atlanteans living in an undersea soveriegn state while he's out there and that The Devil is just ONE of HUNDREDS of supernatural figures one can expect to just "bump into" in the day-to-day. Yes, it's also so ABSURD that you can make a comedy video just by summarizing it, but for me it's a big part of the charm... except when it's not.

The thing is, comic-continuity used to be a BONUS for the reader... and now it's become the sole focus of waaaaay too many books. IMO, that's the real problem. When I first got into comics as a little kid in the 80s, it was because I liked Spider-Man, Batman etc. from cartoons... then I'd read an issue and go "whoa.. who're all these other guys they hang out with? They have their OWN books? Maybe I should check those out, they seem cool!" or "Wait... the footnote says this bad guy showed up in such-and-such issue five years ago? WOW! This story is waaaaay more sprawling than I thought, cool!" It made the experience more fun, and the more of it you "got" the more you felt like you "in on" some big awesome secret club.

BUT! The difference was, if you DIDN'T care about that stuff, they still tried to make the book itself worth reading. One issue would still tell a complete short story and the bigger continuity would play itself out in the footnotes and side-moments. You'd get, for example, a complete self-contained main-story where Spider-Man fought and defeated the Villain of The Month; and then in the "side-story" stuff like conversations with the supporting cast or cut-asides to other characters with their own agenda you'd get bits and pieces of whatever the big over-arching story of the time was. Casual readers got a good one-off comic, hardcore fans got massive, sprawling multi-issue "sagas" to follow, everybody wins. That first part doesn't happen anymore, and it leads directly to BAD continuity-focused stuff like what's described in the video.

So the issue is that if spider-man is married he can't go out with other women? I'm guessing open relationships, threesomes, and polyamory don't exist in the marvel universe? Okay, sure, its not PC by any measure....but your supposed hero is already making deals with the goddamned (literally) morningstar to erase his marriage, so you clearly aren't that concerned with what other people are going to think anyway. And this way you could pretend to be tackling topical and controversial subjects.

Okay, maybe not. Just saying there are many, many options open to you to 'solve' this 'problem', and out of all of them you decide to magic it away with a demonic pact.

Was Quesada born retarded, or was all this brought about as a result of some tragic accident?

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

Good job Bob.
I was on a Spider-Man Podcast when this stuff went down, and there was a gloriously epic amount of face-palming.

It was fun to hear a summary of it all again.

The only thing I liked that Joe Q said was that you don't need MJ to have all these stories.

Alas, I HATE how they took her out. I would have supported a death much more.

"Comics are weird" - is this Bob's subtle way of saying "Comics regularly do crazy, stupid-ass shit with writing that no self-respecting writer would ever hope to get away with in any other format?" And I think part of this is because there are enough fans who are willing to tolerate it that the publishers just go along with it. A similar argument can be made with video games - too many consumers are tolerating (and even praising) mediocrity and crapiness, and as a result the bar gets lowered another notch or two.

This is why comics either need to hit the cosmic reset button once every so often or simply give the characters a beginning and an end and not be afraid to stop publishing.

Seiously, thats why I loved the ultimates series, I know some whiney bitches got upset but I could care less, a full marvel re-boot was a fantastic idea because when the continuity of a series gets too clusterfucked you end up getting ridiculous stories like the one moviebob has pointed out (this weeks was a good'un bob!)

At any rate marvels heroes were much better than dc's and the marvel cosmic stuff like thanos, galactus the eternals, annhilus,nova and the silver surfer were much better than lame-ass darkseid and the green lantern corpse (yellow is a stupid fucking weakness) Dc always did the occult stuff better (hellblazer, lucifer, sandman, swamp thing) and vertigo is still one of the best imprints. Lets face it folks lucifer made mephisto look like a joke.

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