The Big Picture: Continanity

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Its easy... you go with the decade that made most sense for DC its mostly the 80s for marvel its the first half of the 90s, ya know befor they started to screw everything up.

I like how multiple/alternative universes became the scape goat and explanation behind anyhting that you couldnt explain out right. Though I think now a days its getting out of hand. Especially in comics. They need to start a pruning process to landscape their creations a bit.

That's just insane. But you've made your point Bob, I won't read any comic books. Though I'm a fan of any movies, TV shows and games with old style comic themes. Batman arkham asylum for example was awesome.

Power Girl is a feminist!? Are you kidding me? Her tits are her super hero logo!

Power girl is a femisit?! You've got to be kidding me! Her tits are her super hero logo!

LOL double post

just keep creating material for the Rule 34, i dont really care about all this except the hottest female heroes come from DC, and Marvel could use a little bit more in the scene of female sex icons

yeah, i went there.

This proves they need to make a Batverine movie finally.

Wow I don't know what surprised me more, that there is a bat caveman and a bat pirate, or that I wasn't surprised at all

dastardly:

And this is why limited series tend to produce better, more believable characters.

When you begin a story, or a character's run within that story, with reasonably-predictable timeline in mind, you can create story arcs that have an organic and interesting shape. You can aim for a single "grand climax," steering all events toward it, away from it, back toward it, and eventually BAM! You're there, and the rest is denouement.

But you can't create that shape unless you know both the beginning and the ending point. You need a finite space in which to work. And having that finite space allows you tell a far more interesting story, because it will have direction, and highs and lows that both matter. Most importantly, it will have closure.

[Snip]

But if you don't set a destination, you're only delaying the day where the "son" becomes the "father" again. Let heroes die. Let them retire. Above all, let some stories end.

Well Put. This is brings up another problem I have with most comic stories:
Comic stories and characters feel like they are economically dictated by their fans. Most characters that do have their stories end is because they were not popular enough to keep. But that's just the innate problem with having serials, I guess. When the concept of the story revolves almost entirely around the character, rather than the environment the character lives in, the story's lifetime is also determined by the popularity of the character.

skfd:
Is this superhero-comic fandom as big outside States?

Not as big, no, but there;s a lot of comic-book enthusiast everywhere. In France for example they always were a big thing. The comic-book section of a store here is a library in its own sometimes, with older issues catlogued carefully and the new ones arranged into mouth-watering displays:). But the french BD are a different thing, a case of parallel evolution of the comic-book and I dare say they treat their readers with more respect and less spandex suits:) , Still Wolverine and Spider Man are popular everywhere from what I saw. Also novels like V for Vendetta and The Watchmen tend to be pretty universal, it's probably because they are clear, have an actual direction and ENDINGSSSSSS!

Ah yes, Comic continuity. I have a hard enough time keeping up with Marvel's continuity, though that's been somewhat relieved since in recent times... it's kinda sucked. Simple enough to follow, but not that great. Civil war was the last good storyline Marvel's had for a while, IMO. They also keep all of their alternate earths nice and apart from one another, even if they kinda destroyed the Ultimate universe with Ultimatum.

I kinda know what's going on in the DC-verse, but that's only because I've actually taken some time to research it. For a casual fan, especially a casual fan who may only like one or a few characters, will have a hard time keeping up.
I'm betting a few Batman fans didn't even know he "died" about a year ago.

Hell, any fans of series's with a large backstory and whole universe love conitity, and get pissed when it gets screwed up.

Us halo canon fans are still pissing an hissy fit about how reach changed the dates of the planet's invasion.

Oh man, what comic book story writers can get away with! Imagine if Shakeaspeare wrote a Romeo and Juliet two from a different universe where the Capulet and Montegue families were business allies and Juliet was promissed to Romeo to further strengthen the bond between the families, but they ended up kinda hating each other and had to fight their families to get out of it.

I had a hunch American comics were complicated, but this blew me away.

Probably explains why I collected Marvel comics back in the 80ties, with exception to anything written by Alan Moore.

This is why I think its silly how some comic fans expect -erm- DEMAND complete, faithful continuity adaptations from comics to TVs or Movies. The comics can just bearly (if at all without hitting some cosmic reset button) maintain continuity with each other, and people think its entirely reasonable to faithfully preserve continuity that from a crossing of mediums? The comics themselves bearly follow logic in continuity. The writing process is a pot-luck deal anyways.

Sticking with my plan to NEVER EVER read comics, especially after this.

Thrust:
my god 52 sucked ! and I am a casual reader

Could you try to be a little more inflammatory?

I really like Big Picture, so much fun and nerdy knowledge I had no idea about.

Anyone remember the cosmic treadmill? SHUT UP NO YOU DON'T BECAUSE THAT SHIT WAS STUPID!

52 was actually what got me into comic books and I find that the best way to deal with continuity is that whenever a past event is mentioned you just trust the comic on that. If you continue to read comics dealing with continuity will get easier over time and if you know any hardcore readers they can help you understand it.

You don't really have to worry until you actually manage to find a grip on the continuity. For example I've heard from Linkara of thatguywiththeglasses.com (I've never read the miniseries in question and I'm not really into the comic series as a whole) that a comic miniseries called "Wonder Woman: Amazons Attack" is a terrible series mainly because it disregards all of WWs continuity.

But back to the point if you go with the flow and happen to know someone who knows the continuity of these comics then you should find it easier to get into them.

I remember listening to an interview with, among other people, Neil Gaiman and Warren Ellis (2 of my favorite people ever) where they talked about how if the DC Comics Continuity were to survive as a whole, single collection, and then were to survive some sort of nuclear holocaust, it might be looked upon by future civilizations as an Ancient Epic Poem, dwarfing that of the Iliad or the Epic of Gilgamesh- and would tell of the legends and beliefs of this "long forgotten ancient civilization"

As well as how 'nice and quaint' it would be to be remembered through our civilizations comics, rather than our religious scriptures.

Funny to think of Comics and Graphic Novels as 'Tomes of Ancient Hieroglyphics" that scholars would pour years of time into deciphering.

Towels:

dastardly:

And this is why limited series tend to produce better, more believable characters.

When you begin a story, or a character's run within that story, with reasonably-predictable timeline in mind, you can create story arcs that have an organic and interesting shape. You can aim for a single "grand climax," steering all events toward it, away from it, back toward it, and eventually BAM! You're there, and the rest is denouement.

But you can't create that shape unless you know both the beginning and the ending point. You need a finite space in which to work. And having that finite space allows you tell a far more interesting story, because it will have direction, and highs and lows that both matter. Most importantly, it will have closure.

[Snip]

But if you don't set a destination, you're only delaying the day where the "son" becomes the "father" again. Let heroes die. Let them retire. Above all, let some stories end.

Well Put. This is brings up another problem I have with most comic stories:
Comic stories and characters feel like they are economically dictated by their fans. Most characters that do have their stories end is because they were not popular enough to keep. But that's just the innate problem with having serials, I guess. When the concept of the story revolves almost entirely around the character, rather than the environment the character lives in, the story's lifetime is also determined by the popularity of the character.

Really, it's the reason comic books are often like Pokémon. Create a whole bunch of neat little characters, and then... Well, that's it. I don't know, spin them around in a whirlwind of nonsensical stories, with relatively uninteresting dialogue. The important thing is to keep selling the character. Show him using his powers, show him overcoming evil.

Seriously, have you ever wondered how people could such big fans of particular pokémon? It's not "what they stand for." It's not the stirring, inspirational speeches they deliver. It's not their epic story arcs. They like the look and feel of the character, and that's it. Unfortunately, comic characters often work the same way. People fall in love with the look and general "feel" of a character, and they just like seeing that concept in print.

And you're right--it's a money game. The fans are loyal to the character, and the writers make it their duty to keep the fans loyal to the character, and it's just a feedback loop that either spirals downward into madness, or goes nowhere. Instead, they could be using that loyalty to challenge the reader with great stories that explore the character in deep and meaningful ways... but they don't, because the spice must flow.

It's like someone breaking into politics. They learn quickly that they've got to do some pandering to get elected, but they tell themselves that, once they're elected, they'll use that power to do some real good! Then they get elected, and they try to do too much at once... only to find that, whoops, they're going to need to do some pandering to stay elected. And eventually, they completely give up on any of the changes they were going to make.

I didn't know that DC Universe was that FUCKED UP! :D

The whole multiple storylines and different series thing going on at the same time are why I never got into comics as a kid beyond 1 or 2 of them, and they weren't superhero comics

I would go into the store, see a marvel or DC comic and take a quick peek and was like:
"What? What the hell is going on? I thought I knew who some of these people were, what's with the change in setting?"

So I could never get into them because there were soooo many storylines to keep track of, it was overwhelming so I just gave up.

It's one of the reasons why I never really got into western comics and convinced me that most comic-writers are absolutely TERRIBLE storywriters who should be prohibited to write any piece of fiction of any kind ever again.

The sad thing here is, that much of this bullcrap could be avoided if so called "professional comic writers" could get rid of one of the most glaring fan-fiction-writer flaws in existence: the fear of an ending.

That is indeed one of the seemingly forgotten truths in storywriting everywhere: That every great story has an (hopefully equally great) ending. From MacBeth over Lord of the Rings to Star Wars, works of fiction are (or, in case of Star Wars, were) great as long as they had an ending. Because as much as fanboys and horrible fanfiction-writers like to cling to a franchise as if their lives depended on it, a good conclusion is just as much part of a strong narrative as the interesting beginning and the climax.

Comic book writers are terribly amateurish in that matter in the perspective that they seem unable to do this. There was ONE thing in the last 10 years that made me consider to get into comics (again) and that was the supposed death of Captain America. Not in an epic battle with hundreds of bad guys, not while armwrestling with Galactus but killed by a normal bullet while he left a court where he was put by the very nation he lived to protect.

Without knowing much more of the whole "Civil War"-arc, that scenario alone was so full of depth, gave so much potential and was such an great and admirable step by the writers...the very impact the death of one of THE American superheroes on the world of normal humans, the world of superheroes/villains AND even the real world was astounding. And in an almost Ghandi-esque way it would've made Cap truly immortal...all that was missing were some stunning last words.

But that was not to be, so of course they had to bring in some idiotic elementary-school crap about non-lethal bullets, pseudo time-jumping and a biiiig plot to get Red Skull, which was of course destined to fail, since we can't get rid of one of the oldest super-villains either, right?
So back in the bin of uninteresting bullshit for the easily impressionable, western comic books and welcome, halfway bearable)movies and TV-series

God I hate Superbo-Prime,
image

TBH I loved 52, but Countdown was a f**king mess, and the ending was lame

This talk about the multiverse makes me wonder, "what if there really is a multiverse where all the possibilities of humanity existing as something else (what if humanity was all robots, what if humanity were all werewolves, what if all of humanity was the opposite gender of what we are now, etc.) really existed?"

So let me see if I get this pattern straight.

Classic characters get tons of backstory and cross-overs and reissues etc. that it becomes a big confusing mess.

The writers try to wipe the slate clean and start over.

Now the old fans are pissed. To ease their pain they try to tie their new clean slate into the old continuity.

This makes it an even bigger confusing mess.

I can't help but picture DC and Marvel making an announcement to their fans.

"You realize if we wanted to tie all this together into one big continuity it would require some really lame story/explanation right?"

I have a friend who is really into comics. The peak of my comic reading career involved a bit of spider man. He tries to explain all this shit to me and I just don't get it. Comics are way too confusing because of all this continuity stuff.

mr_rubino:
This proves they need to make a Batverine movie finally.

You mean this guy?

image

Dark Claw

Anything DC publishes with the word "Crisis" in it, stay far, far away from unless you have several hours of reading time and a LOT of superhero knowledge. Most confusing things i've ever read.

Frozen Donkey Wheel2:
I have only three words:

Bat pirate. AWESOME.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Batman the Cavemen. Batman the Pirate. Holy shit!

I hate that some seem to insist that everything has to be in the same universe. You have to read so much other stuff to figure out what is happening.

It also results in some really be inconsistency in quality. This is what really gets me about how comics are made today. I hate it when you follow a story and grow to like the characters only for the writer to change. This new writer has different ideas about how these characters should be. I then lose one of the reasons I am reading a series.

If they want different writers to use the same characters I wish each writer would essentially get their own universe. None of the other writers could touch the other writer's settings. All of this is one of the reasons I also read manga. One writer/artist for the entire work.

Is it just me or was Bob hating on Power Girl? Who hates Power Girl? Even Tim Gunn likes Power Girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQwU7uUPcU#t=6m00s

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