The Big Picture: Conspiracy Weary

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WaderiAAA:
Really good episode. And yes, reality is pretty frightening sometimes, but personally I just find conspiration theoriest to be funny and silly.

I always thought they were more fun back in the 1990s. Then Bush came, and we all found out there REALLY IS an evil conspiracy that runs this country...and they're IDIOTS.

arbane:

WaderiAAA:
Really good episode. And yes, reality is pretty frightening sometimes, but personally I just find conspiration theoriest to be funny and silly.

I always thought they were more fun back in the 1990s. Then Bush came, and we all found out there REALLY IS an evil conspiracy that runs this country...and they're IDIOTS.

You do realize that this site is not all-American right? I mean, you can at least say "USA" or "America" instead of "this country". I, for one, am Norwegian.

Anyway, I see your point, but I think there is a big difference between a proven conspiracy (as in the Bush administration planted a false letter linking Saddam Hussain to 9/11) and conspiration theories. The first one is based on evidence, and is dead serious, while the second one is based on speculation and mostly prove to be wrong.

ReiverCorrupter:
But he's nothing compared to Lincoln, who suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, ordered mass executions, ordered a scorched earth policy against civilian targets and even denied the Confederate's request that union doctors come to take care of the union prisoners because he thought it would be better to let union prisoners die of disease if it helped to strain the confederacy's resources. Now he's worshiped as a hero as the freer of the slaves. (Which is even funnier because he offered seceding states slavery in perpetuity if they rejoined the union on multiple occasions.) He did things one hundred times worse than Bush (granted he also had more reason to) and he's considered a hero, so what are the chances anything will happen to Bush besides him being paid $100,000 an hour on the lecture circuit?

To be excruciatingly fair, "rebellion or invasion" are the only circumstances under which habeas corpus is constitutionally ALLOWED to be suspended.

And Bush doesn't even have preserving the Union or freeing the slaves on his resume.

ReiverCorrupter:

Drake_Dercon:

*snip*

I more or less agree. Though I would point out that

1) My main point about theories was that the term 'theory' does not signify uncertainty in scientific academia like it does in general language. I think I came off as more skeptical than I intended, as I certainly acknowledge that the existence of cells etc. has more or less been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course, generally speaking that is no longer considered a theory, and is more like a law. Although, even laws can be doubted (not in whether they describe something that does happen, but whether they quite explain what is happening, i.e. Newton's law of gravity). But then again, this doesn't boil down to the theory being 'wrong', but in not quite being nuanced enough.

Ah, arguments over technicalities. I really don't know why I love them so. Though, I think we agree on this point so there's no need to continue it.

ReiverCorrupter:

2) In terms of the weather: it's emergent complexity. Emergent complexity is always very difficult for us to deal with because it doesn't break down into isolate-able parts that can be studied separately. It also doesn't lend itself to scientific experimentation because the forces at work can't be put into a lab with controls, and indeed the very placement of controls could affect the emergent complexity. This is why we aren't able to understand the brain by simply looking at one neuron, and is why neuroscience in general progresses more slowly than biology does. We understand how certain weather phenomena work (e.g. what causes a hurricane), but I'm not sure if we can say we understand the entire weather system of the planet, which is really the point at issue. There's just too many factors and it's really difficult to test. Though I do agree that it isn't reasonable to ignore our impact and say climate change is probably natural when 1) there is so much at stake, and 2) we know the chemical effects of the stuff we produce, that couldn't possibly be part of the natural cycle.

I really haven't studied meteorology that much, so I can't comment, though with proper study, anything can be predicted to exactly how it will turn out. Give us 200 years and I bet we'll have it. I did say "not as well as everything else", though. The meaning might have been a bit obscure, so I'll try to flesh that out. We can understand the causes and effects of most things (i.e. >50%). How they relate... not so much. But then, I haven't studied meteorology very much.

Environmentalism ftw. I honestly mean that. I get hydro power. And other stuff...

I have to fix myself up a bit.

ReiverCorrupter:

3) I largely agree with your stance on the ethical argument. It seems to me that it's sheer laziness on our part on not wanting to switch over from fossil fuels. Not only that, but oil has a lot of other important uses (polymers, plastics, etc.). I think it would be a huge boon to American industry if we made the shift. Right now we're moving into becoming a service based economy, which is crap. We were powerful when we made stuff. We still make some computers and what not, but I don't see how we can stay on top economically by just having a service industry. There's really no reason to switch over other than temporary inconvenience, and the people in the oil industry loosing money. Not only that, but we could stop giving a crap about the middle east, and can just let them flounder in their own religious fanaticism. But everyone tends to be shortsighted.

...Canadian. But we're so similar it doesn't matter.

'Bout the middle east, though:
Both our countries are in pretty deep, if we back out now, lives will be in danger (remember, most people over there aren't suicide bomber candidates and a great many want to help the people coming in. What do we do? Blow them off and wait for these organizations to take hold again and kill them for treason?). Plus all the money and people lost from our side would have been completely wasted. You start something, you finish it. I don't see where the opposition comes from on this debate (so, If you could help me on that, it would be much appreciated), but it seems to have taken hold.

ReiverCorrupter:

4) About Bush: Great president? No friggin' way. War criminal? Maybe a little. But he's nothing compared to Lincoln, who suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, ordered mass executions, ordered a scorched earth policy against civilian targets and even denied the Confederate's request that union doctors come to take care of the union prisoners because he thought it would be better to let union prisoners die of disease if it helped to strain the confederacy's resources. Now he's worshiped as a hero as the freer of the slaves. (Which is even funnier because he offered seceding states slavery in perpetuity if they rejoined the union on multiple occasions.) He did things one hundred times worse than Bush (granted he also had more reason to) and he's considered a hero, so what are the chances anything will happen to Bush besides him being paid $100,000 an hour on the lecture circuit?

Okay... I just want to know where the hell that came from. Is it about something I said? Nice history facts, but I don't see what they have to do with anything I was talking about. If they were about Bob's video, you should point that out, because it doesn't make much sense as part of a response.

arbane:

ReiverCorrupter:
But he's nothing compared to Lincoln, who suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus, ordered mass executions, ordered a scorched earth policy against civilian targets and even denied the Confederate's request that union doctors come to take care of the union prisoners because he thought it would be better to let union prisoners die of disease if it helped to strain the confederacy's resources. Now he's worshiped as a hero as the freer of the slaves. (Which is even funnier because he offered seceding states slavery in perpetuity if they rejoined the union on multiple occasions.) He did things one hundred times worse than Bush (granted he also had more reason to) and he's considered a hero, so what are the chances anything will happen to Bush besides him being paid $100,000 an hour on the lecture circuit?

To be excruciatingly fair, "rebellion or invasion" are the only circumstances under which habeas corpus is constitutionally ALLOWED to be suspended.

And Bush doesn't even have preserving the Union or freeing the slaves on his resume.

Ah, true. But a rebellion is when someone tries to overthrow a government. A secession is when some group tries to break away from a government. There is a rather large difference. For example, what if, say, fundamentalist Christians took over America, abolished the first amendment and denied rights to anyone who wasn't a protestant Christian? Say then, that California decided it didn't want to be part of that government and decided to secede. They have no wish to take over the American government, they just want out. Although the ethical situation is reversed, it's the same situation. I'd say that in a democracy any group has a right to break away.

Is global warming real? According to my earth science prof, modern temperatures today are still lower than they were in the Cambrian,and all we need to do is wait about 15000 years for the continents to shift into a position that will block water circulation at the equator and we'll be in yet another ice age. But screw science, this site is for videogames.

Drake_Dercon:
[
'Bout the middle east, though:
Both our countries are in pretty deep, if we back out now, lives will be in danger (remember, most people over there aren't suicide bomber candidates and a great many want to help the people coming in. What do we do? Blow them off and wait for these organizations to take hold again and kill them for treason?). Plus all the money and people lost from our side would have been completely wasted. You start something, you finish it. I don't see where the opposition comes from on this debate (so, If you could help me on that, it would be much appreciated), but it seems to have taken hold.

...

Okay... I just want to know where the hell that came from. Is it about something I said? Nice history facts, but I don't see what they have to do with anything I was talking about. If they were about Bob's video, you should point that out, because it doesn't make much sense as part of a response.

In quick reply. I agree with you about pulling out, it would be a huge waste. But it would also be nice to be less reliant upon OPEC.

Also, sorry about the Lincoln thing, that wasn't really directed at you per-se, I just find it a little infuriating when people complain about the (relatively) minor stuff Bush has done, when we all hold Lincoln in such high regard. It's either hypocrisy or ignorance. For the majority of people, it's ignorance. Other than that I didn't really have a point...

oh... no... wait... there is a point: keeping all of these facts out of the history books is really kind of an informal conspiracy, don't you think? No one planned to do it, but it's a repression of facts derived from a general consensus (that Lincoln is an American hero and therefore was incapable of doing wrong). Not a conspiracy, per se, but almost as nasty.

Hanlon's Razor. Keep it close at all times.

ReiverCorrupter:

In quick reply. I agree with you about pulling out, it would be a huge waste. But it would also be nice to be less reliant upon OPEC.

Also, sorry about the Lincoln thing, that wasn't really directed at you per-se, I just find it a little infuriating when people complain about the (relatively) minor stuff Bush has done, when we all hold Lincoln in such high regard. It's either hypocrisy or ignorance. For the majority of people, it's ignorance. Other than that I didn't really have a point...

oh... no... wait... there is a point: keeping all of these facts out of the history books is really kind of an informal conspiracy, don't you think? No one planned to do it, but it's a repression of facts derived from a general consensus (that Lincoln is an American hero and therefore was incapable of doing wrong). Not a conspiracy, per se, but almost as nasty.

All right, I can respect that. Just one point: conspiracy requires intent, the fact that it's not there is just epic fail. Or perhaps it is conspiracy, Lincoln was a Republican, you know. Could the Conservative side deal with that kind of shame being taught in schools?

Now I'm not quite sure if I was being sarcastic...

That was really insightful and I greatly enjoyed it. Nice work!

Glad to see another episode not about comics. That stuff goes right through me.

Drake_Dercon:

ReiverCorrupter:

In quick reply. I agree with you about pulling out, it would be a huge waste. But it would also be nice to be less reliant upon OPEC.

Also, sorry about the Lincoln thing, that wasn't really directed at you per-se, I just find it a little infuriating when people complain about the (relatively) minor stuff Bush has done, when we all hold Lincoln in such high regard. It's either hypocrisy or ignorance. For the majority of people, it's ignorance. Other than that I didn't really have a point...

oh... no... wait... there is a point: keeping all of these facts out of the history books is really kind of an informal conspiracy, don't you think? No one planned to do it, but it's a repression of facts derived from a general consensus (that Lincoln is an American hero and therefore was incapable of doing wrong). Not a conspiracy, per se, but almost as nasty.

All right, I can respect that. Just one point: conspiracy requires intent, the fact that it's not there is just epic fail. Or perhaps it is conspiracy, Lincoln was a Republican, you know. Could the Conservative side deal with that kind of shame being taught in schools?

Now I'm not quite sure if I was being sarcastic...

Well, like I said, "Not a conspiracy, per se."^^^ There has to be a bit of intent though, otherwise why would historians leave it out?

I need to have a friend of mine sit down and watch this video. Said friend legit tried to get me to believe bullcrap that the US government was behind 9/11 and (even funnier) that Tupac was alive on the basis that he has material credited to him a lot. I didn't even waste my time pointing out that Tupac was an immensely popular rapper who probably would've been in the studio working on one or more projects before his death which is where this "new" material comes from.

Interesting take Movie Bob. Though I got to wonder, why is it that people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin get the spot light as conspiracy theorists while characters like Keith Olbermen and Chris Mathews get a free pass? Especially considering how Keith and Chris has been conspiracy theorizing for the past several weeks about the Arizona massacre. That seems to be the most recent rash of conspiracy talk on the news.

I guess even Bob is prone to confirmation bias.

A harmless video. Yes?

WRONG!

Take the first letter of every word in the title.

TBPCW

Translate this into numbers with an elementary number cipher.

20 2 16 3 23

Add them together.

20+2+16+3+23=64

Element number 64 is Gadolinium.

The melting point of Gadolinium is 1312 Centigrade.

1312 was whenPope Clement V forcibly disbanded the Knights Templar.

Thus, the only logical conclusion is that Movie Bob is a trying to turn humanity into a giant Popsicle!

AHHH!

MovieBob:
Conspiracy Weary

This week, Bob uncovers what's really going on, and welcomes our new reptilian overlords.

Watch Video

What's the name of that TV series about dinosaurs with lasers? I remember watching it, but what's it called again?

I remember it being pure awesome, a brachiosaur with a giant laser beam and stuff, but my memory's fuzzy:(

Funniest conspiracy theory i've ever heard was one where my government teacher was convinced the penguins were going to come to wipe us all out one day.

My rebuttal: "no, no, it'll be dolphins."
Without missing a beat: "Who do you think's gonna be riding on the dolphin's backs?"

Clonekiller:
Interesting take Movie Bob. Though I got to wonder, why is it that people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin get the spot light as conspiracy theorists while characters like Keith Olbermen and Chris Mathews get a free pass? Especially considering how Keith and Chris has been conspiracy theorizing for the past several weeks about the Arizona massacre. That seems to be the most recent rash of conspiracy talk on the news.

I guess even Bob is prone to confirmation bias.

Setting aside any veracity (or lack thereof) to Olbermann etc's assertations about Arizona, there's a key difference at play: Positing what the shooter may have believed, or what political leanings may have contributed to his choice of target is "theorizing" - which is what news-analysts "do" in the absence of new information - but not CONSPIRACY theorizing.

Olbermann (or whoever) postulating "Jared Loughner might be a Tea-Partier" is a theory - actually, that's being generous, it's really just more of a GUESS. Sarah Palin specifically claiming that the "lame-stream media" organized in order to bring her down, or Glenn Beck accusing The President of being a Socialist sleeper-agent groomed by Bill Ayers under the direction of George Soros are both, by definition, conspiracy theories.

Waffle_Man:
A harmless video. Yes?

WRONG!

Take the first letter of every word in the title.

TBPCW

Translate this into numbers with an elementary number cipher.

20 2 16 3 23

Add them together.

20+2+16+3+23=64

Element number 64 is Gadolinium.

The melting point of Gadolinium is 1312 Centigrade.

1312 was whenPope Clement V forcibly disbanded the Knights Templar.

Thus, the only logical conclusion is that Movie Bob is a trying to turn humanity into a giant Popsicle!

AHHH!

My god.... You are absoulty right!

I loved the video. It was insightful but still made me laugh. I especially like the argument you just gave me for when people say the Iraq War was a conspiracy. That they didn't plant the evidence. That's so true.

Waffle_Man:
A harmless video. Yes?

WRONG!

Take the first letter of every word in the title.

TBPCW

Translate this into numbers with an elementary number cipher.

20 2 16 3 23

Add them together.

20+2+16+3+23=64

Element number 64 is Gadolinium.

The melting point of Gadolinium is 1312 Centigrade.

1312 was whenPope Clement V forcibly disbanded the Knights Templar.

Thus, the only logical conclusion is that Movie Bob is a trying to turn humanity into a giant Popsicle!

AHHH!

That's a pretty epic reply.

arbane:

goldenheart323:
Could you please explain why THIRTY THOUSAND scientists have signed up to debunk man-made global warming, NINE THOUSAND of whom have PhD's?

Yeah about that list...

As if biologists have never been included as an authority on what causes climate change? (They would know the effects weather change has on animals, but no insight into what causes weather change in the first place.) I guess both sides play the loose label game.

arbane:

goldenheart323:

If man made Global Warming/Climate Change is believed to be real, then governments everywhere have another excuse to impose more taxes on its citizens and make more regulations on energy use, all in the name of saving the planet. Anyone against the new tax or regulation would be painted as being against saving the planet. Oh, and they'd be labeled a kook for not believing it's all man's fault. Any scientist speaking out against it is automatically labeled a shill for Big Oil and ignored.

Ok, so it's an EVIL GUBMINT CONSPIRACY faked up to CONTROL EVERYTHING. How appropriate for this thread.

Isn't it though? We're on a planet who's climate changes drastically over time. It's done that long before man even existed. Suddenly, when we can detect a change of less than 1 degree, we get people telling us the climate's changing because of US, and we need to feel bad about it and buy different stuff and we need to pass new restrictions & regulations & we need new taxes to fund going green projects. Or to put that more succintly: "Everyone needs to do what we say, OR WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!" Which makes more sense? Which is a simpler explanation?

By they way, have they ever developed a climate model that takes into account the effect water vapor has on the climate? That has a big effect, but last I heard, that still couldn't be done.

goldenheart323:

arbane:

goldenheart323:
Could you please explain why THIRTY THOUSAND scientists have signed up to debunk man-made global warming, NINE THOUSAND of whom have PhD's?

Yeah about that list...

As if biologists have never been included as an authority on what causes climate change? (They would know the effects weather change has on animals, but no insight into what causes weather change in the first place.) I guess both sides play the loose label game.

arbane:

goldenheart323:

If man made Global Warming/Climate Change is believed to be real, then governments everywhere have another excuse to impose more taxes on its citizens and make more regulations on energy use, all in the name of saving the planet. Anyone against the new tax or regulation would be painted as being against saving the planet. Oh, and they'd be labeled a kook for not believing it's all man's fault. Any scientist speaking out against it is automatically labeled a shill for Big Oil and ignored.

Ok, so it's an EVIL GUBMINT CONSPIRACY faked up to CONTROL EVERYTHING. How appropriate for this thread.

Isn't it though? We're on a planet who's climate changes drastically over time. It's done that long before man even existed. Suddenly, when we can detect a change of less than 1 degree, we get people telling us the climate's changing because of US, and we need to feel bad about it and buy different stuff and we need to pass new restrictions & regulations & we need new taxes to fund going green projects. Or to put that more succintly: "Everyone needs to do what we say, OR WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!" Which makes more sense? Which is a simpler explanation?

By they way, have they ever developed a climate model that takes into account the effect water vapor has on the climate? That has a big effect, but last I heard, that still couldn't be done.

It's cool how you have more expertise on this subject than actual experts on the subject.

Kafloobop:
Watch the Global Warming Swindle. It was made by actual scientists, not a politician.

So a television producer/director is now an actual scientist? who would have known!

You should really check up on the criticisms of the documentary you herald, it is no where near accurate, and a lot of the scientists featured in it are completely misrepresented, some even having their segments removed from the "documentary".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle

I'll end this with an excerpt from Carl Wunsch, a professor of MIT featured in the film:

Carl Wunsch, professor of Physical Oceanography at MIT, is featured in the Channel 4 version of the programme. Afterwards he said that he was "completely misrepresented" in the film and had been "totally misled" when he agreed to be interviewed. He called the film "grossly distorted" and "as close to pure propaganda as anything since World War Two", and he lodged a complaint with Ofcom.

omegawyrm:

It's cool how you have more expertise on this subject than actual experts on the subject.

Yeah, it's totally sweet. :-D

Seriously though, if it were just talk show hosts disagreeing with all the experts, I'd be rolling my eyes at them. The thing is, I've seen plenty of actual climatologists voice their dissent on the matter. It's not as one sided as we're lead to believe.

Bob, please stick to comics. The biggest conspiracy is how they allow you to talk about things you don't know about. Now this would have been a good episode if at the end you said "global warming is NOT real." And by good I mean would have 8x the comments and the escapist rates the quality of a show by the amount of comments. Wait I think I just solved the conspiracy about your multiple shows. Quick tell me how bad The Expendables was a distract them with a flame war!

Bob blindly following the orthodoxy is extremely annoying. Global warming is a crock, and Obama has never been able to provide a birth certificate. If the birthers are so wrong, why doesn't he just produce the goods already? but anyway.

For all bobs talk of facing reality, he sure as hell loves to lump in uncomfortable truths with conspiracy nutjobbery.

PS/FYI:the millions of dollars in play in Big Green could concievably generate some dodgy data, the egyptian ambassdor has publicly stated that Obama told him he was a muslim in private, and that Obama's teacher and family have been located in kenya, not to mention Obama's repeated quirky and bizarre remarks about being a muslim immigrant. Al Quada no, immigrant muslim showpony yes.

D-

Cursed Frogurt:
Global warming is real. Whether or not we are significantly affecting it is the debate.

Conspiracy theories are stupid. Personal agendas should always be considered.

Does it matter whether we are causing global warming or not? I mean, if your house is on fire, do you sit in the flames just because it wasn't your fault?

Sorry, this is a my pet peeve, so I'm just gonna stop now before I can't stop at all.

OT: good video, good show, but I think it's naive to assume that all conspiracies are BS. Conspiracy is a tool, mankind has used it before, people in power have used it before, both of these things will happen again.

omegawyrm:

goldenheart323:

arbane:

Yeah about that list...

As if biologists have never been included as an authority on what causes climate change? (They would know the effects weather change has on animals, but no insight into what causes weather change in the first place.) I guess both sides play the loose label game.

arbane:

Ok, so it's an EVIL GUBMINT CONSPIRACY faked up to CONTROL EVERYTHING. How appropriate for this thread.

Isn't it though? We're on a planet who's climate changes drastically over time. It's done that long before man even existed. Suddenly, when we can detect a change of less than 1 degree, we get people telling us the climate's changing because of US, and we need to feel bad about it and buy different stuff and we need to pass new restrictions & regulations & we need new taxes to fund going green projects. Or to put that more succintly: "Everyone needs to do what we say, OR WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!" Which makes more sense? Which is a simpler explanation?

By they way, have they ever developed a climate model that takes into account the effect water vapor has on the climate? That has a big effect, but last I heard, that still couldn't be done.

It's cool how you have more expertise on this subject than actual experts on the subject.

Once again, because I feel this is very important. WHY DOES IT MATTER IF IT'S OUR FAULT? If global warming is real(I think so, my area is definitely not as cold as it used to be, migration movements are occurring months later than they did 20 years ago, ect.) then why does it matter whose fault it is. If your house is on fire, do you let it burn unless it was your fault? no, you call the fire department, and ask questions later.

spartan231490:

Cursed Frogurt:
Global warming is real. Whether or not we are significantly affecting it is the debate.

Conspiracy theories are stupid. Personal agendas should always be considered.

Does it matter whether we are causing global warming or not? I mean, if your house is on fire, do you sit in the flames just because it wasn't your fault?

Sorry, this is a my pet peeve, so I'm just gonna stop now before I can't stop at all.

OT: good video, good show, but I think it's naive to assume that all conspiracies are BS. Conspiracy is a tool, mankind has used it before, people in power have used it before, both of these things will happen again.

My argument is that we can't affect the weather, we can't affect climate change, so can we please focus our time and money on real issues? Look, I'm cool with a lack of pollution, but these country-biased, expensive greenhouse gas protocols are bullshit. Back in 2004, a college professor of mine who worked for some environmental group on the side gave a presentation on how he DISAGREED with the Kyoto Protocol, saying it didn't accomplish anything and was really biased against the US.

@ Bob

Brilliant.

One of the worst things you can do on the internet is post on a forum.... wait.... $#@&!

But how do you explain the flag man, how do you explain the flag

double post

Pathetically unenlightened, I am sorry your views are this basic Mr. Moviebob. I implore you to ponder deeper into "reality".

That last joke would probably mean more to me if I actually knew who David Ike was.

Serenegoose:
Bleh. My biggest problem with conspiracy theories being so widespread is that it means they're actually possible (in far more mundane ways than a global shadow government yes, but still possible) because all you need to do to discredit inquiry is to look incredulously and say 'it's conspiracy nonsense' and then whoever asked the question has to look sheepish and go away forever. It's not a binary. Conspiracies do exist, not all conspiracy theories are invalid, but yes, 9/10 of them are bunk. Of course, even by saying 'conspiracies happen' people probably think I'm a kook. Which kinda proves my point.

Definitely agree with this. By simply labelling something as 'conspiracy nonsense', you've set it up to be interpreted in a particular way by the public based on preconceptions.

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