Can The Dark Knight Rises Rise Above Its Predecessors?

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Riff Moonraker:
All I will say is that I have learned to trust in Nolan.

I remember when I first heard that Heath Ledger would be playing the Joker. I laughed, no... I guffawed. I thought it was the most horrendous mistake EVER.

Obviously, I got served a huge plate of humble pie. I will never doubt the man again, mark my words. Nolan knows his craft.

I'm guilty of this as well.

Jhereg42:
Bane is an interesting choice for Nolan's final movie. There is a part of me that hopes Nolan ends the movie with Batman's back broken and Catwoman saving the day in some strange way. Wayne recovering from the broken back while crime starts to go on the rise again (Making people realize how much they miss Batman) would provide an unconventional backdrop to the inevitable 4th installment.

That could actually work all in the 3rd film. Act 1: Bat & Cat meet, Selena and Bruce meet, Bane orchestrates breakout from Arkham and breaks the Bats back. Act 2: Time skip (training montage as well probably) showing Bruces recovery, crime rising with Bane in charge, Cat joins up with Bane and Bruce and Selena getting closer. Act 3: Bat is back, fights Cat, realise who each other are and then fight Bane together.

However, not matter how good it is, movie rules dictate it won't be as good as number 2.

Short answer. No.

Long answer. Altough beating begins and the dark night is going to be one hell of a task i dont think it will be pulled off, i think that it will become a fantastic movie in it's own right however i dont think it can surpass. I am hoping for a 3rd movie success (and sequals are normally hated whist threequals are loved).

I love the idea of Bane. As we have had so far mainly mental players (Raz, Joker, Scarecrow) Dent had his small 6 round salute. So giving someone who can kick the crap out of the Bat is fantastic.
Catwoman, someone to give batman a reason to come back, while still keeping the Bruce Wayne character pre-occupied in the story? Sign me up

And with Nolan proving himself to be able to be an awesome director on his own as shown with inception.

The_root_of_all_evil:
Batman Begins bored me. It's a tired re-hash in the name of REALISM, that that hack Frank Miller started without realising certain simple rules.

Superheroes aren't realistic.

Except for that part about Batman, and almost all of his major villains, not having any superpowers. The characters have always been about achievement and psychology which are amplified but still on a human scale. The whole point of the Batman is that he's realistic. He's part of a (then) vital legacy of pulp era heroes like Zorro or Sherlock Holmes. No one would complain, I hope, about making a realistic movie about those characters, so it doesn't make sense to complain about it with Batman. I admit his early association with Superman, which was National's only other popular character, makes him part of an unrealistic world, but that's a consequence of business, not conception.

I think Catwoman and Bane are brilliant choices, and here's why.

In short, for people scared of spoilers: Bane could represent the internal struggle Batman would face when confronted with irredeemable evil. Does he get pushed into taking a life and killing Bane, or let him live, knowing he will kill again. Catwoman could represent the struggle of love versus Batman's quest for vengeance. He falls for her and may even be willing to retire with her, but then finds out she's a criminal. Does love mean he breaks it off, lets her run away, or captures her?

avatar should not be the highest grossing film of all time either nor titanic, both wholly mediocre films and tdk certainly tops either of them in quality.

Tdk was considered "great" not only because it was heath ledgers final film, but it also took superhero films out of the emo kiddy vein, tdk was a taught thriller built into a superhero film, it is by far and away the best superhero film to date, which put it in class pretty unique among it's peers.

Was it the godfather? no. but many films on the top grossing films of all time are not the best films ever made, they are just the ones the appealed to the public or got lucky. tdk i think deserved it's place n that list for being a great film, not the greatest film ever made but a great superhero film.

yeahhhhhh I'm not sure about the character/villain choices but I don't doubt Nolan...fingers crossed =)

it will be pants because as always due to hollywoods refusal to let a big movie be above a 12 rating there will be all these people who hate each other and try to kill each other without swearing, YEY REALISM

Tipsy Giant:
it will be pants because as always due to hollywoods refusal to let a big movie be above a 12 rating there will be all these people who hate each other and try to kill each other without swearing, YEY REALISM

Or the camera wussing out from showing anything concerning violence and the like. Watch the "Joker kills Gambol" scene to understand exactly what I mean. Christ that's getting more and more annoying every time I watch the Dark Knight at any length. All the members of the MPAA could just die right now, would leave the entertainment world a much better place.

Steve Butts:

The_root_of_all_evil:

Superheroes aren't realistic.

Except for that part about Batman, and almost all of his major villains, not having any superpowers. The characters have always been about achievement and psychology which are amplified but still on a human scale. The whole point of the Batman is that he's realistic. He's part of a (then) vital legacy of pulp era heroes like Zorro or Sherlock Holmes. No one would complain, I hope, about making a realistic movie about those characters, so it doesn't make sense to complain about it with Batman. I admit his early association with Superman, which was National's only other popular character, makes him part of an unrealistic world, but that's a consequence of business, not conception.

I disagree, and would put Zorro and Sherlock into the realms of pulp(super)heroes. Was Doc Samson, Agent 13 or Dick Barton realistic? A realistic Biggles or Flash Gordon? Both would be dead by the end of the first reel.

They can be realistic in their realism, but never in ours.

If you bring in realism, then you make these characters heroes. Not superheroes.

Batman isn't realistic. He can't be. Big Daddy is Batman done realistically.

ciortas1:

Tipsy Giant:
it will be pants because as always due to hollywoods refusal to let a big movie be above a 12 rating there will be all these people who hate each other and try to kill each other without swearing, YEY REALISM

Or the camera wussing out from showing anything concerning violence and the like. Watch the "Joker kills Gambol" scene to understand exactly what I mean. Christ that's getting more and more annoying every time I watch the Dark Knight at any length. All the members of the MPAA could just die right now, would leave the entertainment world a much better place.

it isn't their fault it is the studios who won't put anything above the age of the main movie going demographic 13-18 year old males, so all our BIG MOVIES end up being too wussy for adults and too dark for kids YEY

Twinkle, Twinkle, broken Bat...
Heard your back go crickle-crack...

So it's Bane, huh? Awesome. It's about time he gets his portrayal of being freaking brilliant, getting pretty much all of Arkham's most notorious inmates to work together to take down the pest that has taken them all apart. One of the few villains who could match (if not beat) Batman's intelligence and skill. And then, to top it all off, he's the only villain to break the Batman. And the Venom fits right into the Nolanverse gadgets and concoctions, so there's a plus.

Though, me, I'm still holding out for a cameo from Jervis Tetch.

I am pretty concerned for what exactly Nolan has in mind for Catwoman and Bane. Well, maybe concerned isn't the right word for it. I suppose I'm skeptical. I know Nolan hasn't let any of down yet, but none the less, this is BANE we're talking about here. I've decided to withhold any major criticism until I know more about what exactly Nolan has in mind though. For now, my overall feelings at the moment are a resounding "Nnngh"...

I really like the choices for both (would've loved to see either Clayface or Croc, as well), and I have a few reasons why.

Bane. Exciting potential for this guy. Every villain and antagonist to have faced Batman in Nolan's films has been an intellectual or psychological match, and those familiar with the true character of Bane will recognize no differences here. But while Falcone, Maroni, Scarecrow, Ra's Al Ghul, Joker, and Two-Face were able to keep up psychologically or operationally, only Ra's was able to match the Bat in terms of brawn. Bane is going to change that, and with that change will come the necessity to alter angles of attack. Batman will have to outwit his own body, and he'll have to do more than just "outsmart" Bane if he's going to beat him. Whatever Nolan does with Bane, there's no getting around the element of his strength.

Catwoman. It's already presumed (all but officially announced, anyway) that Selina Kyle will/might act as a romantic entanglement for Bruce. Imagine that. Their relationship was always fairly mutual, but Catwoman (so far as my memory serves) was doing the lion's share of the chasing. Given the hole left in the wake of Rachel's murder (don't forget that part), that could mean emotional turmoil for Bats. But there was also a rumor that Catwoman is going to step up during Batman's recession (who better to follow up a Bat-Man than a Cat-Woman?) as an equal costumed vigilante (someone whom we've yet to see in Nolan's Gotham). This could very well serve to prompt Batman to take greater action and shine a light between Batman's lawful vigilantism vs. Catwoman's opportunistic vigilantism. This is called The Dark Knight Rises, after all. Perhaps these two villains will bring Gotham to realize that Batman is both they hero they deserve and need.

I found an interesting article earlier. As someone who hasn't read any comics with Bane in it my knowledge is limited, but this really explained the character to me and made me excited.

http://io9.com/5738053/why-is-this-guy-youve-never-heard-of-christopher-nolans-latest-batman-villain?skyline=true&s=i

Bane is not a thug. He cold, clever, tactical villain. He didn't Break the Bat just though brute force, he out smarted him too. Also the guy has a seriously messed up backstory, surviving life in prison from a young age for crimes of the father. Obviously there's stuff that needs to be cleaned up, like the whole Wrestler crap (give him a mask but if your going to make him anything make him a cage fighter) and Venon (needs to be scaled down A LOT). And as for Tom Hardy not being the right build...

image
From the movie Bronston

Honestly i would question this decision a great deal more but people questioned Nolan when he chose Ras and Scarecrow for the first movie and when he chose Heath Ledger to player Joker...So yeah, I trust him.

I hate the Catwoman. She's never been done right in live action and the only reason the animated series and comic book one worked is that it's a cartoon/comic.

I'm excited and accepting of using Bane. He's awesome in every way. He's awesome in every other way.

I'm damn excited about this film again after the casting of Hathaway. However, I won't raise my hopes too high, it'd take perfection for this film to best The Dark Knight.

I heard aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages ago that Depp may have been the Riddler. Guess I'm totally out of the loop :P. Would have love to see him play that role.

I do agree DK was made extra popular because of Ledger's death. Which is a shame that this will over shadow the film, because without a doubt it was his finest performance! Still, he will always now be remembered with fondness. Totally deserved the Oscar!

Heath Ledger as the Joker got a huge negative response.

I think we should all just shut up and see what happens.

I think Bane is probably a bad idea. The things I've loved about the Batman movies the most is the lack of superpowers, it made everything more believable. But this might just break the whole suspension of disbelief for me.

I can see Bane working in this film& Tom Hardy will fit perfectly into that role // Bane is someone who can take anything Batman can dish out& still out smart him when it is called for // He is not a mindless thug // Also nowhere is it written in stone that we will get Catwoman in this film, but a lead into that villain been created might be on the cards

-M

The_root_of_all_evil:
Batman Begins bored me. It's a tired re-hash in the name of REALISM, that that hack Frank Miller started without realising certain simple rules.

Superheroes aren't realistic.

To be fair, I remember reading an interview with Frank Miller where he said something to the effect of:

"People took The Dark Knight Returns as a realistic piece...I've never done a piece of realism in my life!"

He also regretted that people focused on the 'dark and gritty' aspects of that book while ignoring the more lighthearted touches (like Batman's relationship with Carrie Kelly).

I also remember him saying (although maybe not in the same interview) that he didn't believe a real-life Batman would last even 6 months in the real world.

Ever since the title was released I've always, always associated it with Bane and the "man who broke Bats" arc.
That's what I'm going for with this new film, it will probably mirror the Iron Man 2 theme "What if I can't do it after all?".

It isn't hard to imagine Bruce being broken and having to deal with watching the hope he established crumble and fall to pieces around him.
They could introduce Catwoman as the love interest who "inspires" (don't really think that's the right word) Bruce back onto his feet both in the tight rubber suit and out.

I'm not really sure how she'll fit into it to be frank, but I'm predicting the Bane arc anyway.

Tipsy Giant:
snip

It goes a little deeper than that, but the point remains. Remove the rating system, remove the fear of publishers to create mature content, everybody wins. Everybody who can stand realistic violence and language, anyways.

The_root_of_all_evil:
I disagree, and would put Zorro and Sherlock into the realms of pulp(super)heroes. Was Doc Samson, Agent 13 or Dick Barton realistic? A realistic Biggles or Flash Gordon? Both would be dead by the end of the first reel.

They can be realistic in their realism, but never in ours.

If you bring in realism, then you make these characters heroes. Not superheroes.

Batman isn't realistic. He can't be. Big Daddy is Batman done realistically.

In what way is Batman unimaginable in our realism? You say he can't be realistic, but I still don't see why.

bahumat42:
Am i the only person who's worried theres not a central threat in this?
Because as good as catwoman and bane are, they are accessories added to a storyline to improve it usually. There needs to be some driving recurring/leadership role villain. And i don't see it. I think their hiding one of their villains from us.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe I'm just biased because of The Animated Series, but I've never thought of Bane as a main character, due to how he's mainly been used physically throughout his appearances. Then again, Aaron Eckhart's Two-Face was way different than how he's been previously used, so maybe we'll just see a completely different Bane

I'm going to miss Keith Ledger as the Joker. He was damn good at it.

Though I confess, of all the Batman IP, I look forward to Arkham City the most. Ledger did a really believable joker, but Hamil's is a lot more fun.

The_root_of_all_evil:

Vault Citizen:

The_root_of_all_evil:

Spidey would tear his arm off

Even when you take his extra strength into account?

Strength won't matter given the G-Forces he'd be under on a normal swing. Especially as it's attached to a needle thin point on his wrist, or wrapped around his gloved hands.

gamezombieghgh:

It's obvious that Batman Begins bored you, because you don't remember the line when Bruce Wayne is all like, "Bruce Wayne is just a man, he can be ignored, but if I become a symbol, then I can become something else entirely", that's why he 'dresses up'.

I remember it, but then he ignores it and acts like a man beating up criminals.

Batman is so much more than a costume, as are all Superheroes. (And he is because he has the two most common super-powers: Sculpted Physique and Dramatic Immunity)
Batman, like Zorro - who he's based on, can do things that men can't do. And that includes things like disappearing into thin air (though it's really a shadow), striking fear into the hearts of criminals (charisma) and still having time to sleep.

What he's not is a dirty fighter, which is what BB made him. Batman is a symbol. And the film forgot that and made him an everyman.

The Dark Knight made him a symbol. And Joker. That's why it worked.

What do you expect, that he has tea parties with criminals? And he's a dirty fighter? I didn't see any groin shots, scratching or eye gouging... Here's something that Batman doesn't have in common with other 'super heroes' as you say, he wears a costume for two reasons, not only to preserve his identity for safety and legal reasons, but also so that he can act as a symbol. I'm not aware that the 'everyman', wears a menacing costume, owns a tank like car takes down criminals with an arsenal of gadgets, and his fists, and can glide. The fact that to the people, Batman is an unknown masked entity who exists to restore justice to the city, makes him a symbol.

Absolutely. Christopher Nolan is a great director, his brother is a great writer, and Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Tom Hardy, and Morgan Freeman are all great actors. Why wouldn't it live up to the other movies?

I think it will be a great film but we will all hate it. Because we want (and EXPECT) it to top the Dark Knight, and that will be near impossible. When I see it I will keep an open mind though. Bane was a surprise but I trust Nolan enough not to rehash Batman Forever (may it forever be forgotten). Bane in the comics is relatively interesting, and if my memory serves me correctly Nolan described their Bane as a 'New interpretation' that interests me

"I'm still having issues picturing the scope and crazy stakes of previous films being attributed to Bane, though"

Why? I don't understand this. Bane is the only villain anywhere in the Batman franchise who could match and indeed outmatch the hero in every way, mental and physical. He's the most logical escalation from the Joker; that previous films relegated him to being a mook indicated more that their makers just had no idea who he was or what to do with him. (Something that also appears to be true of much of the fanbase.) But people were hoping for The Riddler? The Penguin? Absurd camp villains from the days of yore?

How can a villain who matches Batman at every aspect of his own game be some kind of a longshot for matching the stakes of previous films? If anything it's a golden opportunity to introduce audiences to just how badass a villain Bane really was.

Steve Butts:

In what way is Batman unimaginable in our realism? You say he can't be realistic, but I still don't see why.

Really got to get to work, but I'll have a long set of details later on. I do remember the Escapist article on the unrealities of Batman in the Hero issue, but I'm behind time already.

Batman - Michael Keaton
Joker - Jack Nicolson
This is the only batman film that has ever worked
(unless you go back to the classic Adam West/ Burt Ward!)

Bane can work in a multitude of ways. As long as his intelligence isn't ignored like our friend Schumacher did he fits perfectly in Nolan's vision of Batman. The simplest way is take Batman Begins as a template. Where scarecrow harnessed the populace of Gotham with his gas Bane can harness the criminal element with his steroids, creating an insurmountable problem for the police force and forcing the Bat out. But where Scarecrow easily falls when you finally catch up to him Bane presents an extra hurdle.

Catwoman/Kyle is the problem here as she can easily fail. If used as a love interest for Wayne you can get a retread of the love story of the previous film, especially because Bane will use her as leverage. If used as a love interest for the Bat you can get a retread of Batman Returns (still my fave Batman movie, Keaton, Danny and Michelle are on a roll in that one). Nolan's going to have to walk a tightrope on that one.

I just hope Nolan manages to restrain himself from explaining everything at length all the time. Inception and The Dark Knight are both marred by rather extreme lengths of exposition and preaching. Memento would not be improved by explaining everything in detail thus he wisely left it out, it seems he's forgotten that of late.

Siberian Relic:
But there was also a rumor that Catwoman is going to step up during Batman's recession (who better to follow up a Bat-Man than a Cat-Woman?) as an equal costumed vigilante (someone whom we've yet to see in Nolan's Gotham).

That's an interesting angle you've got there. Rolling up Catwoman and Robin into the same person.

I still believe there's a character that's yet to be revealed though. Catwoman seems like such a weird fit for Nolan's Batmovies it just doesn't sit right with me.

Is this in the EXCLUSION of Riddler and Penguin? or are they going to make a cameo? or was that all just speculation?

Cause i would be sad now if those two were the intended villains but was then replaced with Bane. Though Bane would make for a good send off for Nolan if this is his last batman movie. He has a talent for portraying lesser known villains very well.

I mean Bane obviously gets a bad rep from the his previous incarnation, and anyone who isn't into DC would not know his actual character and probably be put off thinking back. Also the fact that Catwoman have been marred similarly by a terrible movie.

Apparently Talia Al Ghul was involved with Bane at one point, so she can still make an appearance woo. XD

The Riddler is still going to be in this right? After seeing Joseph Gordon-Levitt in Inception, I have been really curious as to how he would portray that character. He was so calculated in that movie that I thought he would be perfect.

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