The Big Picture: Correctitude

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I see the points being made. Good points.

But, you bash Carlos and Jeff, but praise South Park, and a long list of other, similar comediens. The former are just "mean" while the latter are inspired? Eh, don't buy it. Stand up comedy is a love of mine, and i've heard stuff from most all the people you listed, and while most of them are funnier then Carlos and Jeff, I can't see were your getting that Carlos and Jeff are meaner then them. Just call it the way it is, you don't LIKE Carlos and Jeff. It's got nothing to do with them being any more or less anti PC then the rest.

Outside of that, nice ep. Looking forward to more.

No I remember that the RE5 guys were complaining that there was a black population being saved by a white guy or that black people were the savage villains (aka zombies). And this was before the game was out, I don't remember a single soul mentioning headhunters. I do remember people mentioning AIDS, but this was before the game was out and zombies coming from a virus isn't exactly new. So yeah I make no apologies in treating those complaints as being incredibly stupid.

Although if I grouped in the people who objected over headhunters with them fine I'll apologies for that.

And Bob you gotta give us at least some definition of what political incorrectness is. Yes I'm aware of all those comedians, but what made the politically incorrect to you?

BobDobolina:

370999:

BobDobolina:

Oh, that's right, he is, isn't he, as of just last year? For calling for the banning of the Koran among other things. Well, having thus tried to crush the free speech of others he doesn't get any sympathy from me on free speech grounds.

If I was to rape a woman does that mean that it is right that I be raped?

You want my honest answer to that question?

Alright, I'm joking. Kinda. I of course understand your point, but Europe has anti-hate speech laws for a very good reason. It was called the Holocaust and they don't want to go through it again. Such laws merit all sorts of caution but no, I do not regard them as inherently wrong; they're in place for the race/religious/ethinic-rhetoric equivalents of shouting "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

You do understnad the problem with that analogy though? That in those threaters if there was a fire and it wasn't called lots of peope would die. Likewise if someone thinkgs soemthing if a problem it is right for them to say so. It could simply be "I hate Darkies they take jobs" in which case it will be ignored or laughed at, however if discussing things like the problematic incidence of cousin marriage in pakistani commumities and the genetic defaults it causes it will be dealt with.

Likewise it creates sympathy for racist gorups and to a degree push people towards them if they feel that they are the only way they can even discuss things, which is not good at tall.

craddoke:
Amen. I was just reading up on the aftermath of Penny Arcade's dickwolves strip, and this video perfectly captures the essence of that brouhaha. To paraphrase the Golden Rule: Don't be a dick (or dickwolf, as the case may be).

The PA thing was more complicated, I think. The best summary of it that I've found and that captures those complexitites can be found here.

(I hope no one see's racism in what is about to follow its not in there I swear it)

HONESTLY when I first saw the resi 5 trailer I never saw the racism.

personally I think the resident evil series had to go to africa/haiti at some point the zombie myth does come from there and naturally most of the zombies would be black as a result nothing wrong there.
main character being white isnt a problem either he's an established character from earlier in the series hard to get around that.

claimbing you cant have black/african/african american etc etc people as enemies isnt pc your being an ass aswell

I saw a video on youtube of a black guy I mean african american no no I mean a man err ... person ... sentient being ... sapient being? living being???? whatever he said that the term "black hole" was racist even though they had been talking about actual black holes in space.

as a kid I watched a show called red dwarf it was many many years later watching a documentary where they pointed out that two of the characters were black that I even noticed.

but yeah dont be an ass and use pc to defend yourself but at the same time try not to see stuff that isnt there.

as for Sheva in a leopard skin bikini ... actually kinda sexy is that such a bad thing? its not even her main outfit.

Father Time:
And Bob you gotta give us at least some definition of what political incorrectness is. Yes I'm aware of all those comedians, but what made the politically incorrect to you?

Presumably he thought they displayed some kind of genuine insight and humor instead of just being assholes. That's certainly what I take to be the unifying factor among the list of stand-ups at the end vs. someone like Mencia or Dunham. (The South Park guys, hit and miss.)

I'm afraid I do feel that when an established character is played by an ethnically incompatible character, it is entirely pandering to the PC division, and not 'hey, we're living in the 21st century'. This is a pathetic piece of rhetoric that will not change my mind in any way.

If we really are as forward and enlightened as we believe ourselves to be, then we should have no shame portraying characters as they are, and not feel the need to cast a non-appropriate actor in the part.

One great thing about human beings is that they are all different. We are not all completely interchangeable at any given moment. I cannot run like a Kenyan sprinter, but conversely, I doubt many Kenyan sprinters can lift the kind of loads as an Icelandic powerlifter. Its a hard fact of life, but we are not the same, and so pretending to be 'colour blind' for the sheer fucking sake of it to show everyone how 'modern' and 'progressive' we are is just childish and smacks of societal insecurity.

Therefore, I do not want to see Jean Claude Van Dam play Bruce Lee in a remake of his life, and I do not want to see Mickey Rourke play Mr T. I do not want to see Samuel L Jackson play Stephen Hawking and I do not want to see the Norse god Thor portrayed by a black actor because it makes no god-damned sense!

None of these things do, and all it does is ruin my suspension of disbelief and tramples on the verisimilitude of the adaptation I am watching, all for the sake of a 'diverse' cast that is no longer diverse but bloody ridiculous.

The next logical step is gender roles - why not cast Bruce Willis as the sensitive blonde who requires an action hero to save her? Come now, we're modern and progressive and ethnic and gender roles apparently have no place in our society, so lets abandon them all together and make films that nobody fucking understands any more because nobody can tell who is supposed to be playing what.

What really bugs me about this though, is that nobody seems to consider the life the character must have lead to bring them to the point they are at when the movie starts. A huge black man probably faces a great deal of different challenges and bigotries to a skinny white computer nerd, and overcomes them in an entirely different way, and yet you talk as if these actors should be able to play their parts interchangeably - as if this wouldn't totally render the story pointless, incomprehensible and laughable.

It is the life experiences of a character that shape their nature and make us sympathise with and like them. If you assume that life experiences don't matter, and that we all have the same lot, as the fantasy-world the PC brigade live in would have us believe, then you suck out all the interesting elements of a story in one foul swoop. It is our differences that make things interesting, lets not forget that. It doesn't mean we're going to start another Holocaust.

Honestly Bob, I generally think you're better than this, but you've just taken the ultra-PC high-ground here. I agree with the rest of what you've said here, but I can hardly believe you're okay with a PC butchering of an established character. If you want a black god superhero, then they should create a new one and consider what challenges and events occurred in that characters life, don't go ruining an established character for the rest of us.

370999:
You do understnad the problem with that analogy though? That in those threaters if there was a fire and it wasn't called lots of peope would die.

If.

Anyone who's studied the history of xenophobia and hate speech has seen Wilders' routine a billion times. Obviously he's fallen foul of hate speech laws now because the prosecution finds his claims about the "if" questionable.

pffh:

MasochisticMuse:
For a long time now I've held the unpopular opinion that RE5 was indeed fucked in terms of depictions of race.

And it's not even about a white dude killing black zombies. You encounter zombies, you're gonna kill them, no matter what race you or they are.

No. It's not about the zombies, but it is about this;

That's not sexy. It's just offensive.

Why is that offensive and this

isn't?

I'm of Icelandic descent and I can tell you that no one ever asks me, "So when was the last time you pillaged a town and raped their women?" While the stereotype of the Viking isn't politically correct, I don't find it particularly offensive because no one ever uses it to discriminate against me. Alternatively, the one black kid in my group of friends always gets to hear jokes about watermelons and grape juice. There's still a portion of the population that either believes black stereotypes or uses them for the sake of putting down black people, and such stereotypes still crop up surprisingly often in the media. Does that mean it's alright to depict Scandinavian/Nordic people as Vikings? No, not really, but;

Vikings no longer exist... yet there are still tribal communities in the world. Sheva's costume stereotypes/mystifies actual tribes while simultaneously suggesting savagery, especially when taking into consideration the games tribal headhunter enemies.
It's particularly ridiculous when you take into account that Sheva is not from any sort of tribe, she's an agent for a bioterrorism security division. Her sexy costume is a racial stereotype that has nothing to do with her character bio, they just said, hey, she's black and we want her to be sexy, let's put her in a cute little tribal outfit. Black girls wear that stuff, right?

The Viking thing definitely isn't an example of political correctness, but at least it's not stereotyping currently existing, real groups of people.

Sargon of Akkad:
I'm afraid I do feel that when an established character is played by an ethnically incompatible character, it is entirely pandering to the PC division, and not 'hey, we're living in the 21st century'.

I agree. Back when Heimdall was born and was an actual real guy, he was totally blonde and blue-eyed and it's a travesty to...

... oh hang on, Heimdall was a mythical creature... what?

tkioz:

TheRightToArmBears:

tkioz:

What's wrong with gender specific terms? So they might have started off meaning something else, but so what, let it freaking go.

And no, I wouldn't dreaming of calling the most recent female doctor I've had dealings with a "Lady Doctor" because that would imply I've seen her act like ladies, not a stuck up cranky prig. There is nothing wrong with Gentlemen and Lady as terms, those are things one should aspire too.

You're missing the point. Making a distinction over gender is as ridiculous as making a distinction over race. They do their job in the same way, to the same standard. By giving them different terms you're saying there's a difference, is wrong.

'Lady Doctor' is a term that older people tend to use, and for the same reasons I just said, it's wrong. It implies there's something abnormal about a woman being a doctor, like it's the 1950's or something.

Okay by your logic we shouldn't use the terms male, female, man, woman, boy, girl, etc.

After all, we're all humans, right?

/sarcasm.

You're still missing the point, except now you're being rude too. Do you honestly believe that's the same?

Your genitals don't affect your ability as a doctor. Refering to gender in job titles is pointless, for reasons I said. But using gender as an adjective to describe someone makes sense because you're describing them, and what they are, in which case gender matters. For example, you can't get a guy pregnant.

BobDobolina:

370999:
You do understnad the problem with that analogy though? That in those threaters if there was a fire and it wasn't called lots of peope would die.

If.

Anyone who's studied the history of xenophobia and hate speech has seen Wilders' routine a billion times. Obviously he's fallen foul of hate speech laws now because the prosecution finds his claims about the "if" questionable.

And? Should we sacrifice the good for the bad as well so that governments can tell us what to say?

Ok, I learnt somethin... when I first saw that Nick Furry in the movie is black I though "why they used the ultimate version?" but then it's Samuel L. Jackson. So whoever changes ethnics (or sex) in those terms, better be as good as Samuel L. Jackson so I could not notice XD

MasochisticMuse:
Vikings no longer exist... yet there are still tribal communities in the world. Sheva's costume stereotypes/mystifies actual tribes while simultaneously suggesting savagery, especially when taking into consideration the games tribal headhunter enemies.
It's particularly ridiculous when you take into account that Sheva is not from any sort of tribe, she's an agent for a bioterrorism security division. Her sexy costume is a racial stereotype that has nothing to do with her character bio, they just said, hey, she's black and we want her to be sexy, let's put her in a cute little tribal costume. Black girls wear that stuff, right?

This is exactly right.

BobDobolina:
The PA thing was more complicated, I think.

Certainly the entirety of the thing was more complicated - but PA's inability to backtrack and apologize stems directly from the political correctness myth discussed in this video. It's easier to be a jerk when you've been taught it's synonymous with standing up for your principles.

BobDobolina:

Emergent System:

BobDobolina:
Who's "they." Leopard fur bikinis are hot and all but they're sure the hell not part of any African culture I ever heard of.

The people who take the time to complain about pictures like that. I dubt they know much more about their own culture than I know about it either.

Doubt who knows much more about whose own culture? WTF are you blathering about? Why would everyone who finds the Sheva bikini mod stupid have some connection to Africa as "their" culture?

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would find that picture offensive in any way (unless you're offended by scantly-clad females).

I was just speculating that, because depicting black people as doing things typically associated with african tribal cultures is considered racist, while depicting white people as doing anything associated with european culture is not considered racist, to mean that the ones who take offense, at black people being depicted doing things associated with their culture, find being associated with that culture offensive in some way. The ones who get offended by it without having any direct association with that culture are able to do this because they have this magical ability called empathy that lets them see things from other people's perspective.

And that was the reason for my statement. Now, I'm sure I could be wrong, in that case, I'd be happy to have you correct me.

To me, Political Correctness is just like manners.

When I'm hanging with my friends, I'm not going to go out of my way to be politically correct, like I wouldn't go out of my way to pull out chairs for them.

When I'm out in public, I'm going to do the gentlemanly thing to do, and open doors for people, and not call people *Insert outdated racial term here.*

370999:

BobDobolina:

370999:
You do understnad the problem with that analogy though? That in those threaters if there was a fire and it wasn't called lots of peope would die.

If.

Anyone who's studied the history of xenophobia and hate speech has seen Wilders' routine a billion times. Obviously he's fallen foul of hate speech laws now because the prosecution finds his claims about the "if" questionable.

And?

And it's up to the court from that point, since if "should we sacrifice the good for the bad" is seriously the best you can do as an objection to the laws in question, there's no reason it shouldn't be.

I agree with some of these statements. Political correctness puts a muzzle on free speech or allows people to say something that may be offensive. However i am tired of being berated or otherwise told that I am a bigot or a jerk for stating a view that runs contrary to someone else's. I am allowed to disagree if I want. Troll if I would like (not intended here). Be politically or just plain incorrect IN YOUR VIEW. The RE5 argument is total BS. The location of the game was some African country. Unless someone from a tribe that was directly referenced in the game has something to say then whats YOUR PROBLEM? So you are offended for offended tribe? People in Africa, for the most part, are black. I am tired of being told by anyone, Chipman, Beck, or anyone else that my world view is wrong or that I am a pig because you disagree with me. I think that the people who think they have the only right way to look at things are the bigots, racist, and censors.

Let's just say that being PC is being polite, but using PC is a asshole move.

I thought it was interesting that all the examples of correct Politically Incorrectness are all dead and/or heavy illicit drug users. (Wait, I think Mel Brooks might still be alive.) Does that mean if I do mounds of cocaine and dope and heroin and say offensive things, I will get the Moviebob Politically Incorrect Seal of Approval?

I agree with some of these statements. Political correctness puts a muzzle on free speech or allows people to say something that may be offensive. However i am tired of being berated or otherwise told that I am a bigot or a jerk for stating a view that runs contrary to someone else's. I am allowed to disagree if I want. Troll if I would like (not intended here). Be politically or just plain incorrect IN YOUR VIEW. The RE5 argument is total BS. The location of the game was some African country. Unless someone from a tribe that was directly referenced in the game has something to say then whats YOUR PROBLEM? So you are offended for offended tribe? People in Africa, for the most part, are black. I am tired of being told by anyone, Chipman, Beck, or anyone else that my world view is wrong or that I am a pig because you disagree with me. I think that the people who think they have the only right way to look at things are the bigots, racist, and censors.

samus17:
Not bad, but I don't remember the resident evil 5 racism scandal being quite like how you portray it. I'm pretty sure the complaints were "whitey killing blacks" and not "misuse of tribal imagery" But hey, I could be wrong.

The scandal in RE5 was indeed about a white man killing black zombies because that was the only thing that was shown in the trailers. The whole misuse of tribal imagery with indigenous zombies with spears and Sheva wearing zebra bikinis came later, when the game was released.
It was a pity, though... The first debate was largely demoted because it was commanded mostly by "why don't you care for our children" conservatives and people that didn't know the game, neither could see past the imagery to realise that zombies in Africa would be mostly black; so the second, most interesting debate was dismissed entirely at that point as reactionary and Capcom was left unharmed for being, at the very least, socially insensible.

BobDobolina:

370999:

BobDobolina:

If.

Anyone who's studied the history of xenophobia and hate speech has seen Wilders' routine a billion times. Obviously he's fallen foul of hate speech laws now because the prosecution finds his claims about the "if" questionable.

And?

And it's up to the court from that point, since if "should we sacrifice the good for the bad" is seriously the best you can do as an objection to the laws in question, there's no reason it shouldn't be.

The fact that you are fine with the government dictating what you can and can't ssay is scary. The objection to the law is simple, it limits people's free speech and has a very ugle assumption behiend it, that of people instantly turning racist the moment they see or hear Wilders so we need these political elites to deal with it.

BobDobolina:

Sargon of Akkad:
I'm afraid I do feel that when an established character is played by an ethnically incompatible character, it is entirely pandering to the PC division, and not 'hey, we're living in the 21st century'.

I agree. Back when Heimdall was born and was an actual real guy, he was totally blonde and blue-eyed and it's a travesty to...

... oh hang on, Heimdall was a mythical creature... what?

I don't recall talking about 'real guy's in my post - I was talking about fictional characters. And the mythical (fictional) character of Heimdall was indeed portrayed as a white Scandinavian. Perhaps we should make a movie adaptation of his life where he's played by a Japanese woman, eh?

samus17:
Not bad, but I don't remember the resident evil 5 racism scandal being quite like how you portray it. I'm pretty sure the complaints were "whitey killing blacks" and not "misuse of tribal imagery" But hey, I could be wrong.

Edit: Before the MovieBob defense force comes to crucify me, here's a quote from a group of the complainer's since the original article has been taken down.
http://gamepolitics.com/2007/08/01/african-womens-blog-critical-of-resident-evil-5-trailer

Thanks. I knew it wasn't as Bob made out. Pity I can't find the original through web archive.

craddoke:

BobDobolina:
The PA thing was more complicated, I think.

Certainly the entirety of the thing was more complicated - but PA's inability to backtrack and apologize stems directly from the political correctness myth discussed in this video. It's easier to be a jerk when you've been taught it's synonymous with standing up for your principles.

Mmmmm, the last sentence applies to lots of PA's would-be "supporters" or the dicks from 4chan who jumped in, not really to PA themselves. They were tone-deaf and naive at some points but were actually not that unreasonable. If they didn't apologize for the comic itself, well: you can't start apologizing for doing black comedy when it's more than half of what you do. That would be antithetical to the whole enterprise.

HankMan:
Seemed a little more aggravated than usual this week Bob.
I'm pretty sure changing stories and characters to reflect times that the stories aren't set in or adding races that simply weren't there IS political correctness. But otherwise spot on.

Often though it's to appeal to a wider audience, nothing political about it.

Thank you again. People banging on about "political correctness ruining everything" tend to piss me the hell off.

Silence! I keel you!
^- that sounds funny to me.

You got a point, though. I tend to only be a jerk when people just don't get it, and after long posts trying to explain my points in understandable English that a 4th grader can understand, I will probably call them a fucking retarded bigot.

At which point all my credibility is lost, because where I usually go to do my debates, it's usually about sensitive issues like the mosque, and I'm outnumbered 5 to 2.

That's where it's okay to be politically incorrect, because when they insult my people (the redneck heeiks), I get to insult their people (oversensitive, undereducated pansies who fail to see the whole picture).

Oh and for the record, I've had the mosque debate with an actual intelligent person who brought up more points than "the only people who oppose it are close minded rednecks" before, and said things other than "go stick to your guns," and do you know what? We didn't have any issues about political correctness. The only time the word bigot was thrown around was when we were talking about the debate before.

So if someone demands I be unoffensive not because I'm being bigoted does that mean I get to call them too PC? For instance if I make very dark jokes (things like suicide or abuse) or just insult someone's religion.

You can say I'm dumb (and I probably am) but this went over my head and I got lost about a minute in.

So instead, I'll comment on the one thing that didnt scramble my brain. Where is the shield that guy who fights the care bears was holding from? I know I've seen it before.

370999:
The objection to the law is simple

Ill-informed objections often are.

it limits people's free speech and has a very ugle assumption behiend it, that of people instantly turning racist the moment they see or hear Wilders so we need these political elites to deal with it.

It has no such "assumption" behind it, your claim is simply stupid. Why not do some reading and try to be an exception to the rule: someone who objects to hate speech laws and actually knows the first thing about their limitations and justifications? Then you might have something interesting to say. In the meantime, I see no need to believe that liberal societies are required to be "tolerant" of the "free speech" of political movements that despise tolerance and free speech, even as they try to shelter behind them.

Spot on my good sir!
spot
on!

I love when people tell me they dislike obama because hes black.
I'm like, "do you even know what hes done so far as president? what laws and bills and stuff hes passed?"
They go "no"

Its complete idiocy.

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