Console Gaming

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Valagetti:
Hands up who fully agrees with Yahtzee, yet again.

[Raises hand] Aye! The sooner Kinect and Move die the sonner we can move on and look forward to good games because controller technology was already perfected over a decade ago! Consider the changes that were made to the Playstation controller from PS1 to PS3: apart from colour, the PS3 having Sixaxis, pressure-sensitive controls and the new power/menu button between Start and Select, the designs are exactly the same.

"You are the controller" is such a glaringly flawed statement; there's still a controller involved, only now there's an even greater delay between thought and on-screen response, as well as an added uncertainty as to whether or not you get the indended result, such as waving "hello" when you meant to swing your sword. I'm still not the one chopping the ogres' head off, it's my on-screen avatar who's doing it. And for hayfever-sufferering players, it's automatically game over as soon as a sneezing fit comes on; at least with a standard controller, they can hit the pause button in time. And if you've broken both your legs then games are out of the question altogether. Ideally, if we want to pursue "motion" controls then it should be literally "You are defending your home from an ogre attack" as opposed to you remote-controlling said defender with vaguely relevant arm flails, whether you have a controller strapped to your wrist or not!

Alright whoever thought of this needs to be awarded a medal. It's just awesome. Funny I never thought Yahtzee would agree with anyone about anything.

hem dazon 90:

Mister Benoit:

drummond13:
I think this is a great idea. But why is Movie Bob a part of it? Can it just be Yahtzee and James?

Bob has a show over on www.screwattack.com called the GameOverthinker which is really awesome if you've never checked it out, the earlier episodes are on Youtube.

Seriously go check it out, if you like videogame relates rants they're awesome.

You mean that terrible, biased farce of a show?

Bob is good at reviewing movies but hot damn is he a fanboy.

Im just impressed at his restraint I mean people attack him and he manages to occasionally add to discussions without even wasting a second of his time doing battle with the army of keyboard warriors whom "strongly disagree" with him even though he sound intelligent enough to tear most of them a new one.

joebear15:

hem dazon 90:

Mister Benoit:

Bob has a show over on www.screwattack.com called the GameOverthinker which is really awesome if you've never checked it out, the earlier episodes are on Youtube.

Seriously go check it out, if you like videogame relates rants they're awesome.

You mean that terrible, biased farce of a show?

Bob is good at reviewing movies but hot damn is he a fanboy.

Im just impressed at his restraint I mean people attack him and he manages to occasionally add to discussions without even wasting a second of his time doing battle with the army of keyboard warriors whom "strongly disagree" with him even though he sound intelligent enough to tear most of them a new one.

Spell check is your friend.

And that is because all his arguments are "IF U LIEK M RATED GAMES AND GAEMS THAT R SERIOUS U R A JOCK11!". He is a fanboy and that is inarguable.

hem dazon 90:

joebear15:

hem dazon 90:

You mean that terrible, biased farce of a show?

Bob is good at reviewing movies but hot damn is he a fanboy.

Im just impressed at his restraint I mean people attack him and he manages to occasionally add to discussions without even wasting a second of his time doing battle with the army of keyboard warriors whom "strongly disagree" with him even though he sound intelligent enough to tear most of them a new one.

Spell check is your friend.

And that is because all his arguments are "IF U LIEK M RATED GAMES AND GAEMS THAT R SERIOUS U R A JOCK11!". He is a fanboy and that is inarguable.

I think he's admitted to being a fan boy in the episode of one of his shows he did about fan boyism. The arguments against him are usually even more stupid and generally boil down to "I feel but hurts so I'm going to say mean things about you" know I think if he wanted to he could just spend all of his time combating these people which I'm impressed that he does not because the temptation is their.

capacha here is a hint if you think any determined mass spammers have not created programs to bypass you(which they have) then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

Edit- and don't mess with me man I do 7 gram rocks like its nothin I GOT TIGER BLOOD

Best idea for an Escapist series I've seen. The three greatest minds of the Escapist coming together to have a little chat about the industry. I love how comparable all of your writing styles are. It's like you're all actually here, having a little drunk post-dinner discussion.

Though I see the console/pc control games continuing on, I still see a great big area for the motion control crowd.

Hopefully, in the future, we can have a mix of the two. Maybe menu screens pop up 'minority report' style, allowing you to scroll through quickly without the controller, then return to a holographic 'controller' depending on the game. Imagining having the 'Steel Battalion' controller, without a controller. Just you, the interface and sweet, sweet massive robot action.

Then again, that'll happen when the Armored Core series gets bought out by Konami, hires Bioware to do the cutscenes, and becomes a mix of Gran Turismo and Zone of the Enders with a whole bunch of character development and a massive multiplayer setup.

Ah, one can dream. Now, excuse me while I dream of my own massive robot.

I hope we get more, I really like this!

joebear15:

hem dazon 90:

joebear15:

Im just impressed at his restraint I mean people attack him and he manages to occasionally add to discussions without even wasting a second of his time doing battle with the army of keyboard warriors whom "strongly disagree" with him even though he sound intelligent enough to tear most of them a new one.

Spell check is your friend.

And that is because all his arguments are "IF U LIEK M RATED GAMES AND GAEMS THAT R SERIOUS U R A JOCK11!". He is a fanboy and that is inarguable.

I think he's admitted to being a fan boy in the episode of one of his shows he did about fan boyism. The arguments against him are usually even more stupid and generally boil down to "I feel but hurts so I'm going to say mean things about you" know I think if he wanted to he could just spend all of his time combating these people which I'm impressed that he does not because the temptation is their.

capacha here is a hint if you think any determined mass spammers have not created programs to bypass you(which they have) then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

Edit- and don't mess with me man I do 7 gram rocks like its nothin I GOT TIGER BLOOD

ITG detected

And admitting your faults doesn't fix them. It only makes it worse because you refuse to fix them. And what bad arguments? That he is creepily obsessed with Nintendo? That he suffers from opinion myopia? That He is a decidedly sexist individual? All are pretty good arguments against him.

Bob you are sooo blinded by your love for nintendo, now thats fine an all everyone loves nintendo games. But, your view of the industry is clearly clouded by this thus it makes taking any of your statements as genuinely gratifying as impossible, I was very glad to see yahtzee's response was pretty much the opposite of your whole "shaking the mote adds so much" speech. find one gamer who would risk wankers cramp when he could simply press B to spin mario instead what you HAVE to do on wii

Three of my favorite people on this site, debating important gaming topics.
Please sir, can i have some more?

All very valid comments from the three of you, but I'm going to have to agree with Yahtzee on the immersion front here. One of my favourite things to do is to wake up at 6am and lie in bed playing Mass Effect. If that had me running around pretending to shoot people appearing on a light box I don't think the other people around my house would be very impressed. Plus my body just can't do that as I am still wiping the sleep from my eyes. Gaming is fun because it isn't physically taxing. If I wanted to flail my arms about I would play tennis.

Is it bad that I can only imagine James talking in the EC narrator's voice?

hem dazon 90:

joebear15:

hem dazon 90:

Spell check is your friend.

And that is because all his arguments are "IF U LIEK M RATED GAMES AND GAEMS THAT R SERIOUS U R A JOCK11!". He is a fanboy and that is inarguable.

I think he's admitted to being a fan boy in the episode of one of his shows he did about fan boyism. The arguments against him are usually even more stupid and generally boil down to "I feel but hurts so I'm going to say mean things about you" know I think if he wanted to he could just spend all of his time combating these people which I'm impressed that he does not because the temptation is their.

capacha here is a hint if you think any determined mass spammers have not created programs to bypass you(which they have) then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

Edit- and don't mess with me man I do 7 gram rocks like its nothin I GOT TIGER BLOOD

ITG detected

And admitting your faults doesn't fix them. It only makes it worse because you refuse to fix them. And what bad arguments? That he is creepily obsessed with Nintendo? That he suffers from opinion myopia? That He is a decidedly sexist individual? All are pretty good arguments against him.

ITG? and your just bitchin because you have not done any of the charlie sheen i just had imported, come on it will only melt your face a little :)

I think I mostly agree with yahtzee on this one. While I enjoyed motion control for FPSes, I quite enjoy the way consoles are now an I think that the Wiimote can, at times, be quite stupid. It's also a bit of a dead end. Buttons and motion? Sure it can get farther than purely gesture-based control when applied properly but not by much. On the other hand, since the end of gesture-based control has been pretty much in sight from day one, there may well be a desire to simulate other senses, allowing us to see what might possibly be that stereotype as characterized by Yugioh and Red Dwarf, being:

If you ask me, the hypothetical zenith of gaming technology is direct neural interface - no body to hamper you and your brain is in whatever you want it to be in. Plus it leads to existential uncertainty, which could be entertaining.

Existential uncertainty ftw.

joebear15:

hem dazon 90:

joebear15:

I think he's admitted to being a fan boy in the episode of one of his shows he did about fan boyism. The arguments against him are usually even more stupid and generally boil down to "I feel but hurts so I'm going to say mean things about you" know I think if he wanted to he could just spend all of his time combating these people which I'm impressed that he does not because the temptation is their.

capacha here is a hint if you think any determined mass spammers have not created programs to bypass you(which they have) then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

Edit- and don't mess with me man I do 7 gram rocks like its nothin I GOT TIGER BLOOD

ITG detected

And admitting your faults doesn't fix them. It only makes it worse because you refuse to fix them. And what bad arguments? That he is creepily obsessed with Nintendo? That he suffers from opinion myopia? That He is a decidedly sexist individual? All are pretty good arguments against him.

ITG? and your just bitchin because you have not done any of the charlie sheen i just had imported, come on it will only melt your face a little :)

Charlie sheen is a pillock. For curiosity's sake though what were you referencing? 0.o

hem dazon 90:

joebear15:

hem dazon 90:

ITG detected

And admitting your faults doesn't fix them. It only makes it worse because you refuse to fix them. And what bad arguments? That he is creepily obsessed with Nintendo? That he suffers from opinion myopia? That He is a decidedly sexist individual? All are pretty good arguments against him.

ITG? and your just bitchin because you have not done any of the charlie sheen i just had imported, come on it will only melt your face a little :)

Charlie sheen is a pillock. For curiosity's sake though what were you referencing? 0.o

go on you tube and type in charlie sheen interview, he goes completely insane its hysterical

question what drugs are you using then
A IM DOIN CHARLIE SHEEN MAN THE STUFF WILL MELT YOUR FACE OFF

I think the SIXAXIS worked with inFAMOUS to

but I've never been big on motion controls as a whole. Sure, it works better than analog sticks for FPSes (in Metroid Prime, anyway), but all it ever does is hurt your wrist in the long run.

Wait, what happened to the previous color-coded areas of each spokesperson that made the column very easy to read? I liked those...

I like how yahtzee overlooked the part of the controls used for pointing and tilting and instead went right to the part of wiimote flailing.

I'm with MovieBob on his comment on page 3. I tried to play call of duty with my cousin on his 360 the other day, and all I could think off was how much I missed aiming with the remote. I can see how someone with years worth of dual analogue stick experience would prefer what they are used to, but being relatively new to shooters and having tried dual analogue stick, wii remote aiming and mouse and keyboard, I honestly belive wii remote aiming is the most immersive of the three.

That was a good read. Would these three guys ever consider recording a skype call as an experiment? I'm fine with the present format but we'll always lose the TL;DR crowd.

Wow. Bob must live in a much happier, and non-cynical place to get that specific result from No More Heroes. My experience ended with me turning off the game with a sore arm, because arm-flailing isn't what I'd call fun.

I personaly agree with Yahtzee's point about a nueral interface that could allow you to control the main character as if it were your own body without the physical exertion. In this sort environment you could produce far more FTW moments as you perform some insane feats that you wouldn't atempt with your normal body.

wow. so many replies. wish there was a way to condense the feedback here for easier reading.

I think we'll see the next generation of consoles focusing on more direct player feedback innovations. Skin Conductance Level sensors built into the controllers, cameras watching you, telemetry reports sent back to central server for trending and strategy updates = all of which comes together to monitor your reactions and fit the game to you. This strikes me as clearly the next big step for video gaming (and Nintendo and Valve seem to be quietly pushing it forward).

oh, you're too fat to swing a sword? well, the game will figure that out and adjust to what you can do.
oh, you think it's fun to shoot someone online? well, how about seeing how frustrated it makes them.

EA gave a great talk at GDC about using biometrics to fine tune two of their sports franchises (proving they don't just update the roster).
Valve gave a great talk about using biometrics to modify their games while they were being played.

This leaves me baffled when anyone says console hardware has no where left to go (or guesses there's no need for new generations of hardware). These people are drinking the sony microsoft kool-aid, and think video games are just as boring to support as Blurays and web browsers. Only Nintendo seems to understand that video games are wildly different animal, with different platform needs.

I think that move/wiimote are only good for casual games or maybe local multiplayer. I don't see much potential outside that... Kinect might have some extra potencial but not for controlling the game... maybe for reading facial expressions like "fear" or "tension" and make the game react accordingly... For me that's the biggest potential of kinect.

One thing that was briefly touched upon at the end of Yahtzee's last post was the lack of physical feedback. This has always been one of the biggest things that I hate about motion controls. If you hit someone with a sword, it usually gets stuck in them, or at least doesn't go through them as easily as it goes through air. And you see that on the screen, bu you don't feel it. To me, that actually detracts from immersion, rather than adding to it. Maybe a controller with gyroscopes in it or something that could give more feedback than just vibration would work, or maybe we'll have to wait until holodecks that actually put matter in the way.

Also, one thing that I've always been a little annoyed about is how dismissive of EA Sports games MovieBob is. I had been getting their NHL games for the PC since the mid to late 90's (i.e. so long ago I can't remember when. I was born in 1992), and when they stopped releasing them for the PC after 2008 when the release NHL 09 (for the 2008-2009 season) I was pissed. Not because I wouldn't get roster updates anymore. I can still get those. For free. (thebreakaway.net for anyone who's interested). I like getting the new games the same way that he likes getting the newest Super Mario game. It's not that different, but it has some nice little extra features that (hopefully) fix the annoying bits from the previous game, or add some new bits that make it more fun. Really, it's closer to an expensive bug fix than an expensive roster update.

Finally, Yahtzee mentioned something about how he hates motion controls because they "hamper [his] fat, flabby, unattractive form." I think the response to that would be: if you had to suffer through the moving around for long enough, you would no longer have a fat, flabby, unattractive form. In the same way that muscly people find going to the gym and working out relaxing while also being exercise, or playing a sport relaxing and exercise, you could find a couple hours on Black Ops to be a relaxing form of exercise. Well, only relaxing if you don't listen to the racist, misogynistic 10-year-olds that frequent XBL. *ahem* Anyway, yeah, exercise is good for you, and if you could make Halo good for you, wouldn't you be more likely to play it, because then you could rationalize it to yourself? I understand the argument that the point of a video game is to be someone who's better at something than you are, and I fully agree with that argument. But surely, there has to be a middle ground, between hitting a button to make the on-screen sniper kill someone and actually having the on-screen sniper be as good at killing someone as you yourself would be. That last sentence came out more frightening than intended, but you get the point. Sort of a Wii Fit thing, except its hidden in an FPS? You're getting healthier, and as you get healthier, you get better at the game as well.

Crap. I'm rambling. Better hit "Post" before it's too late.

Well, okay, maybe I'll "Preview" it first, to see if I did anything wrong. Aah! I'm still going! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-----

I didn't feel like going over 11 pages of posts so if someone posted these little things already, boo me.

First off, to Yahtzee's last comment; Emotiv, while far from perfected, is a control method that removes the need for any action period. Be it hands or flailing with a remote or just your unfit body, your thoughts are the control. Again though, it's horribly laggy and isn't useable in twitch based gaming like most modern shooters.

Still lacks feedback of any kind, aside from the visual satisfaction of seeing the stuff you made happen, happen. Most people never really followed up on this tidbit, but in 2000 a US West Coast based company tried to find a non-surgical method to trigger the five senses on the brain.

IE; directly input the images from a camera into the brain of a blind person.

They had some success with precise ultrasound waves, and figured that they could stimulate all five senses given the research time. While it was medical research, they knew it had potential for VR. Now the part that most miss, a well known Japanese company bought up this little independant medical research firm to use in a few possible forms, but ended up not going anywhere with it. Neither medical or virtual reality.

That company was none other than Sony.
Mayhaps they didn't merely sit on this and are waiting for the perfect time to releae it...or I'm just being a little too hopeful in a multi billion dollar company to take a gamble like that.

Again, I was too lazy to check if someone else mentioned this, if one did, ignore this one.

Just keep in mind you had to get this far to read that part.

I'm pretty much with Yahtzee on this one. I think that motion controls are at best a niche thing: they may make sense for certain genres of games but not others. If they just focus on making, for example, swordfighting a seamless experience, then motion controls might actually be a fun addition to gaming. As it is now, they're just a gimmick, and I sure as shit won't be playing ME3 with anything but a good ol'-fashioned Xbox controller.

Perhaps if they made a game where you're a pornstar or a peeping tom, the furious jacking off that accompanies any attempt to use a Wiimote would make sense too.

I agree that motion controls may hurt escapism, but when you're looking to have some fun while exercising, a run-and-gun game would be AWESOME! Just let me shoot things while I do it, and I may actually enjoy jogging! :)

Wow! My 3 favorite people to watch on the escapist and i found out about this on accident! Score!

I really like the conversation, you guys. Good talk. It's still hard to say whether or not these peripherals are here to stay. I wonder what other arcade attraction will end up mass produced for the home.

Oh My Stars and Garters. I just don't, don't, do no freaking care about motion control. I do love consoles PS3 and 360. Easy to use. Throw in a game and go. Some things I want in them:
1) Non-proprietary hard drives, 2 TB min.
2) Wireless N
3) Bluray
4) Plug and Play peripherals
5) Quiet, energy efficient and nearly indestructible
6) Improve the graphics, a noticeable lot, like going from gen 6 to 7. Wii U looks like going from gen 7 to gen 7.1.
7) Keep the cost affordable. Don't go over $600 for a new system.
8) Analogue where ever you can on controllers.

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