Hybrid Multiplayer Mess

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Hybrid Multiplayer Mess

Yahtzee explains why Mindjack just doesn't work.

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I really wish Yahtzee played enough Demon's Souls to get to a point where he'd be invaded. If he hated the hybrid format of multiplayer in Mindjack I can't even imagine how much he'd hate having someone raid his world and kick his ass right before the boss in Demon's Souls, sending all the way back to the start yet again.

Someone start a Facebook campaign for the video game idea proposed at the end there. Facebook's the only way things get done these days.

Klumpfot:
Someone start a Facebook campaign for the video game idea proposed at the end there. Facebook's the only way things get done these days.

And I still think its evil... but an interesting idea, just like the RTS/FPS hybrid idea.

There's another hybrid game: The Nolan North Career Simulator.
You do QTEs to make your copy of Nolan North say the right one-liners, and then the console prints out a paycheck at the end of the session.

that sounds alot like the haunted mod for unreal tournament 3

I would buy that game in a heartbeat.

Hear that, developers? I will buy this game.

I think any cool gaming idea should be tried out in the Indie downloadable market these days. Once you have a working example you know: 1. If the idea will even work, 2. How you can improve upon the idea and 3. Whether there is an audience for such a game.

BTW, your game idea sounds found. I would certainly enjoy playing it with a fried. That's one of the best parts of multiplayer games, seeing the look on your opponents face as he/she realizes she marched right into your trap.

snowman6251:
I really wish Yahtzee played enough Demon's Souls to get to a point where he'd be invaded. If he hated the hybrid format of multiplayer in Mindjack I can't even imagine how much he'd hate having someone raid his world and kick his ass right before the boss in Demon's Souls, sending all the way back to the start yet again.

From the sound of things in the review, he was dying too much to have to worry about that one.
I do too. Honestly I don't know why I bother suiciding in the Nexus after every boss, I'm just going to die anyway. But whatever it takes to keep other players from coming in uninvited and ruining my game.

mjc0961:

snowman6251:
I really wish Yahtzee played enough Demon's Souls to get to a point where he'd be invaded. If he hated the hybrid format of multiplayer in Mindjack I can't even imagine how much he'd hate having someone raid his world and kick his ass right before the boss in Demon's Souls, sending all the way back to the start yet again.

From the sound of things in the review, he was dying too much to have to worry about that one.
I do too. Honestly I don't know why I bother suiciding in the Nexus after every boss, I'm just going to die anyway. But whatever it takes to keep other players from coming in uninvited and ruining my game.

One time I was invading world 1-3 for shits and giggles and it kept giving me the same guy. I'd invade, kill him, he'd use a stone of ethereal eyes, resurrect, and then I'd kill him again. Each time like halfway through the level too. I started to feel bad about it after the fifth or so time.

MasAcERd:
that sounds alot like the haunted mod for unreal tournament 3

Or the Zombie Master mod for Source (though I guess both have multiple players against the enemy commander, so they're not quite the same.)

So the basic proposal at the end there was for a Space Crusade/Space Hulk type of game? Well I suppose a modern reboot couldn't hurt...

Overall though I'm not a fan of crossover/hybrid games, simply because they tend not to include enough of a genre to satisfy the fans of the genres involved. An RPG/FPS game (lets say Fallout 3) doesn't have enough RPG elements to cater to the RPG crowd, and the combat mechanics aren't tight enough to appease the diehard FPS gamer. Compromise just sells both sides of the arguement short.

In all reality there was nothing to be gained from being alive in DS anyways. Health was irrelevant because you should not be getting hit anyways.

Hybrid multiplayer, like so many other things, could be cool if done right.

Grouchy Imp:
So the basic proposal at the end there was for a Space Crusade/Space Hulk type of game? Well I suppose a modern reboot couldn't hurt...

Overall though I'm not a fan of crossover/hybrid games, simply because they tend not to include enough of a genre to satisfy the fans of the genres involved. An RPG/FPS game (lets say Fallout 3) doesn't have enough RPG elements to cater to the RPG crowd, and the combat mechanics aren't tight enough to appease the diehard FPS gamer. Compromise just sells both sides of the arguement short.

Funny, cause Fallout sold a shit ton of copies. So, not sure that argument about appeasing genre fans is sound....It applies to you, but doesnt damage the community.

You might be interested in trying this half-life 2 mod.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/90047/?snr=1_7_7_230_150_1

It's called Zombie Master, and it's basically L4D but one player in the lobby is rendomly decided to be the AI Director.

Unfortunately development stopped a few years back but the code is open source so perhaps some budding young development team could take it and work on it some more?

shadowmazer:

MasAcERd:
that sounds alot like the haunted mod for unreal tournament 3

Or the Zombie Master mod for Source (though I guess both have multiple players against the enemy commander, so they're not quite the same.)

when i used to play the haunted it was 1 on 1 but i didn't play the final builds.

The server here blocked both of the images in the article under the category "Pornography"...

O.o

Anyway, that game described at the end sounds really fun, but potentially very hard to balance. It seems to me like it would be hard to stop the AI director from simply piling all of the monsters into one area.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Demons Souls is a good example of mixing single player with multiplayer. As it stands now, anytime a Black Phantom has invaded my world I have managed to kill them, but it is still scary nonetheless when you are just walking around and all of a sudden someone invades your world, especially since each world is somewhat designed to exemplify the horror in different situations, such as the strong enemies in Boletaria, the claustraphobia and labrynthine Mines, the sense of vertigo in Latria, the constant attacks from storm beasts in the Shrine, and the posionous swamps and enemies in the Valley. As it stands, the scariest Black Phantom encounter was in 2-2, in which I was halfway through and lost in the labrynth mines. When you're closed off in a dark maze with exploding traps, enemies that explode when killed, and instant death lava at most of the exits, having some player who may be better than you hunting you done only makes the situation that much more tense.

I agree with what a lot of people said about the idea. I think the way that Yahtzee proposed the idea sounds like a fun way to play against your friends. I have kind of wanted to play as the AI Director in L4D, although I'd probly be a dick and spawn witches and the horde as often as possible.

Really, the Doodle God experimentation is why we have indie games, and ironically why Yahtzee loves them. They try new things, and they don't blow millions of dollars when those new things turn out to be a dogshit sandwich.

This article has spurred two points I'd like to make.

#1 has basically been already made in that Demon's Souls has managed to do an innovative single player/multiplayer thing, and do it well.

#2 was that Yahtzee's comments on Mindjack reminded me of another game that I really wanted to like, but obviously didn't have the development dollars to sit at the grown-up's table: Alpha Protocol.

The game is actually pretty decent. The RPG elements are well done and it has conversation trees similar to DA or ME. I think the core of the game gets things right. Unfortunately, Alpha Protocol suffers from very mediocre graphics and, in the case of the protagonist at least, terrible voice acting. For those that haven't suffered through any of AP's gameplay, it's basically an MGS4 style, 3rd person stealth/shooter game. And I think that's where Obsidian made their mistake with this one was trying to replicate an MSG4 style game, when really they should have been shooting for an MSG1/2 style with RPG elements added in.

As Yahtzee says, "it's the fact that developing for PS3 or Xbox is just a shitload of work for a shitload of people with very specific skills." and either Obsidian didn't have the people with the skills or they didn't have the time to do it properly and a really promising game suffered for it.

Honestly, if Alpha Protocol had been designed like, say, Lara Croft and the Guardian of LIght or a similar 3/4 down shooter with the RPG and stealth elements intact, it could have been a really awesome game. Instead, we got a half baked game full of bugs, bad character models and wonky gameplay.

Game development seems to be at an interesting crossroads where we have the AAA titles we'll always have (like Hollywood blockbusters), the social/casual/iphone/facebook gaming branch, high-quality downloadable indie titles and then, the worst of the bunch in many ways, those developers trying for that high quality console title but falling short due to lack of talent or funds and giving us the Mindjacks and the Alpha Protocols.

Personally, I'd love to see more developers recognize their own limitations and build great games within them, rather than overreach and end up putting out failures.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Extra Punctuation: Hybrid Multiplayer Mess

Yahtzee explains why Mindjack just doesn't work.

Read Full Article

Hybridizing games not only works well when done well, it's also going to become more and more necessary as each individual genre gets stretched to its limits.

Look at TV and literature (used loosely) these days: crossover this, modernized that, genre-bending-and-blending all over the place. Each genre has come down to a handful of troped stories to tell, and only so many unique twists you can put on them, so we're needing to branch out to find something new and interesting.

So it is going, and will continue to go, with video games. Shooters with RPG elements are the go-to now, aren't they? RPGs appropriated puzzle elements long, long ago. This process, like evolution, is going to be lengthy, take a lot of trial-and-error, and present us with some hilarious deformities along the way.

(For every mutant with laser-eyes, there are probably ten or twenty that have useless powers like growing pimples at will or being able to taste through their elbows or having laser-eyes without having laser-proof eyelids...)

Grouchy Imp:
So the basic proposal at the end there was for a Space Crusade/Space Hulk type of game? Well I suppose a modern reboot couldn't hurt...

Overall though I'm not a fan of crossover/hybrid games, simply because they tend not to include enough of a genre to satisfy the fans of the genres involved. An RPG/FPS game (lets say Fallout 3) doesn't have enough RPG elements to cater to the RPG crowd, and the combat mechanics aren't tight enough to appease the diehard FPS gamer. Compromise just sells both sides of the arguement short.

interesting. i find that the RPG elements of Fallout 3/NV are fairly deep and that the FPS elements were just tacked on. Really, most of your combat should be done using VATS and the only time to play it like a traditional FPS is when you're either saving your AP or you're out of AP. Aside from that, while the RPG elements may not have been as in depth or expansive as the hardest of the hard core RPG players wanted, I don't think anyone purchased either Fallout game (and there were a lot that bought one or both, myself included) that expected any sort of polished or top tier FPS experience.

I understand the point you're making, but I think perhaps Fallout was a poor example.

yahtzee, the game your describing at the end of the article is called "dungeons". its on steam and its decent from what ive heard

Tharwen:
The server here blocked both of the images in the article under the category "Pornography"...

i would definitely consider the image of yahtzee crouching amongst a yellow background pornography. yet i still subject myself to it week after week. why?

Hybridising things is only fun in chemistry (massive chem-nerd joke)

Spitfire Hero

I would buy the shit out of that.

Zombie Master would suit Yahtzee's taste I think.

image

The ultimate hybrid: Spore.

It was lame.

Sgt. Dante:
You might be interested in trying this half-life 2 mod.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/90047/?snr=1_7_7_230_150_1

It's called Zombie Master, and it's basically L4D but one player in the lobby is rendomly decided to be the AI Director.

Unfortunately development stopped a few years back but the code is open source so perhaps some budding young development team could take it and work on it some more?

Yeah, that was the first thing that occurred to me, very similar to the principle Yahtzee thought up. I guess he was ninja'd ;)

http://www.moddb.com/mods/Overwatch

It's an HL2 mod in the same vein as Zombie Master, but more fun. I highly recommend everyone try it!

well, actually there's a half-life 2 mod called Zombie Master which's point is that there's the survivor team controlling the..well... survivors and there's one man who is the zombie master, and drops diferrent kinds of zombies (fast, strong, ranged etc.) from an rts perspective and the survivors have to get to the end of the map, while the zombie master needs to kill them.

it's a mod, made by like, i dunno, 3-4 modders and they've dropped support for it, so it's repetetive,unbalanced and most of the maps are boring, but I had quite of fun for about a week, so with some developer polish, maybe it could be made to a quality game

Actually, looking at mods and free games could be a good way of developers to get a new idea

Edit: okay, it's already mentioned, better read the thread first and then post next time...

Anyone still remember Zombie Master?

I like the game idea but... isn't that really not much dev time? No AI of any significance, no need to design levels just a randomiser, and the points system while difficult to reason how you'd award the director with points (hits on the player?) would be simple. In fact, you aren't designing a game, just a sort of multiplayer engine mod.

Novur:
I would buy that game in a heartbeat.

Hear that, developers? I will buy this game.

I think Yahtzee should become a developer. I love his reviews but he's got some really great game ideas as well. This latest one could be really big.

Hear that Yahtzee, if you're looking for investors for a dev studio, let me know. Let me know quick before I change my mind. I never invest in game companies but your ideas don't sound very risky: rather cheap & brilliant actually.

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