The Big Picture: Off the Charts

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT
 

LordLundar:
Aww, how cute. Look at all the people screaming about one line in the entire video.

QUOTED FOR FUCKING TRUTH. I'm going to ignore the rest of it, because it just feeds the flames, though.

This thread has gotten WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic. It's gone from "movie adaptation of games" to the ol' "East vs West" debate, complete with flamewars! Seriously, can't someone just make an "East vs West" thread so we can get back to discussing what the video was actually about?

malestrithe:

kael013:
"For a western developer"...
BioShock, Red Dead Redemption, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Halo, Assassin's Creed, mother. fucking. HALF-LIFE!
I could go on, but really, what's the point? I knew this would fall on deaf ears when I saw the characters on the "potentially good movies" slide (Hint: 2 Nintendo franchises, 1 Konami, and I didn't recognize the other).

Why only the 6? There have been thousands of Western developed video games since the beginning of this medium, so the you can choose from a wide canyon. But your side keep going for the same 6? Are you guys really that lazy and cannot come up with more choices?

2nd paragraph, and I quote "I could go on". I just put those 7 because they were the first to come to mind and are widely known. KotOR (the 2nd one as well, if you play with the restoration mod), Marathon, Oni, System Shock 2, Battlefield: Bad Company, (and as you mentioned) Amnesia, Portal, and Beyond Good and Evil are others.

While I only have a 360 and a (slightly) good laptop for my gaming platforms (so I mostly get western games) I am aware that eastern developers have good stories as well (and I never said anywhere that they don't). Silent Hill, Shadow of the Colossus, and ICO (just to pull from your list) are games I have watched Let's Plays of and they were very interesting.

EDIT:

Zhukov:
I don't mind him pointing out that most games have shitty stories. I agree. They do.
It's the specific jibe as western games that gets under my skin.
EDIT: Wait a sec... did you mean to quote kael013 instead of me? Because your post seems more like a response to his then mine. Now I feel silly.

Yeah, I think they meant to quote me, but don't feel silly. You summarized my position on this quite nicely. But I guess I better go and reply back to Shjade anyways.

Shjade:

tl;dr - I read it all.

BioShock: I agree with you on this one.

Mass Effect: A sci-fi shooter with RPG elements and an above average story. However, those "player interaction options" do impact the story. I guess you could boil those options down to the three you mentioned, but I preferred to choose what I would have done in that situation which means I was alternating between executing criminals for endangering a stranger to giving out autographs to asking Alliance Fleet HQ why I should give a s**t about a bloody probe to, well you get the idea.

RDR: On reflection, it's decent, better than others on my list, but not near the top.

Dragon Age: Kinda like Mass Effect, but in a fantasy setting with with the old school RPG dialogue tree. And instead of black-and-white morality, it's black-and-grey.

Halo: I put this one in in a moment of nostalgia (Halo was my first videogame). However, I never said it was an example of great storytelling, but it does have an interesting story (for me, anyways). Sure the characters weren't great and the story wasn't amazing, but it got me hooked into a universe that I found intriguing. To me that's a win.

Half-Life: I guess I should have mentioned I was talking about the series with this one, but whatever. This is a great example of a character-driven game (as you pointed out), which adds a more human aspect to it and draws you in more.

All in all, I'm not here to debate whether western developers are better at stories than eastern developers or if the games I think have good stories are the same as yours. When MovieBob said "for a western developer" he was implying that ALL western developers can't do good stories (since he was saying that an Indiana-Jones-by-Joss-Whedon game is some of the best we can do). I'm here to counter that.

RowdyRodimus:

Casual Shinji:

RowdyRodimus:

That's because there is no quality, low or high, involved in anything Bob does.

I hope you don't get a probation for this, because that was an awesome burn.

He trolls and gets paid for it. I should be able to display my thoughts on his work (as it is). I didn't say anything about the man himself, just that his output on the site is severely lacking in quality based solely on what he himself says. I shouldn't get in any trouble for it, and THAT is the big picture lol

That's good advice; I need to write this down on a post-it and stick it on the top side of my screen.

themerrygambit:
And arguably the most faithful being Quentin Tarantino for making sure that Sin City looked as close to the comics as humanly possible.

Tarantino was only a guest director on that movie for one small scene. Robert Rodriguez was the actual director of Sin City.

Zhukov:
Oh, and Street Fighter. If there is any game that has its "focus on action over any story at all" then that would be it.

...

It's the specific jibe as western games that gets under my skin.

Personally I'd point at Mario for the best example of wildly-popular-zero-story. Street Fighter, believe it or not, has a lot of story, mostly behind the scenes. It's just...hilariously god-awful. The whole Vega (Bison) making eye-candy clones of himself for himself deal? Good lord. Don't even get me started.

I get the feeling part of this disconnect must be that Bob has a more accepting palette when it comes to Japanese games than do most of the people commenting on his vids. Just scroll back and count the number of people griping about emo-kids and JRPGs. Then consider how many people like those stories and take note that disliking a story doesn't make it bad. It makes it a story you didn't like. Considering cultural differences, that conflict of tastes will likely come up a lot when weighing non-Western game stories for merit, at least when the people making those considerations aren't even trying to be objective critics.

I'm not immune to this myself - yet another reason I'm not a great candidate for making comparisons between the two sides. You only have to go as far as Chrono Trigger to see that. It's one of the heaviest-hitters when it comes to JRPGs people hold up as great examples of everything the genre can be, how enthralling a story can get, and so on and so forth. It didn't do much for me, personally. I suspect this is due at least in part to playing things out of order and long after release (I'd already played - and loved - Chrono Cross before I got my hands on its predecessor), but regardless of why, it's a pretty big game to not find impressive in these kinds of discussions. Thus my unwillingness to compare.

What I can say confidently is this: when I talk to my gaming friends and they gush about whatever they're currently playing, the ones who are more into western games will - exclusively - tell me about exciting set pieces, battles, achievements and kills they've played through, while the ones more into Japanese games will - again, exclusively - want to tell me all about the storyline and characters (and, sometimes, the music) involved in their latest discovery.

Is that any kind of conclusive evidence? Hell no, it's an anecdote. It says as much - or more - about the players as the games. But it does give me reason enough not to feel insecure about a remark from Bob that, though divisively phrased, is none the less accurate.

Bob's hypocrisy continues then, huh? He's not bothered about commenting on something he, by his own admission, has no idea about, but then goes on to judge others, claiming that they shouldn't be judging Russel because they have no certain idea of what's happening.

Way to go Bob.

i dont realy care about uncharted the movie my dream is that mass effect gets a good movie. it isent a star wars ripoff its a science fiction world with its own aliens worlds and science. you can easily make a side story to the main game.but it while probaly wont do that and try to retell the story of mass effect 1 if were lucky.also castelvannia wont make a good movie mario or zelda could work if they amazed us with the look of the world to make sure nobody cares about the fact the story is realy clich.and metal gear i have no idea it could mabye work but im not sure.also half life and portal would be great if there done right if they arent they while fail.

Bob, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about Sam Raimi directing the Warcraft movie. I honestly believe that Warcraft could be the movie that breaks the curse of video game movies sucking or pissing off the game's fanbase.

I did like the first Mortal Kombat movie though...

Flamma Man:

darthotaku:
I've seen alot of people bashing Moviebob about his "For a western developer" line, and I think it's funny that they bring up the same five games. Probably because those few games are the exception. Most games that I play for a good story aren't western made games because western games put more emphasis on making a profit rather than making a touching story and gameplay.

*inhales*

System Shock 2, Bioshock, Half-Life 2, Portal, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate, Grim Fandango, Planescape: Torment, God Of War, Dues Ex, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem,and many, many more.

Also, you're talking about a "touching story and gameplay" when you have Squall as your avatar?

Yeesh.

Both western and eastern developers have equally good and shitty writers, no other is better than the other. I'm really getting tired of this pointless argument.

We have Portal and Bioshock, while the east has Silent Hill 2 and Okami. Do we really need to have a contest of who's better?

alright you've convinced me. I take back my previous statement.

No interest in computer games based movies really... I don't have a close enough attachment to any computer game based storyline to want to see it's big screen translation.

I thought the best games were supposed to involve the player creating the storyline anyway? How can that work as a film?

I think the big problem with adapting video games into movies is that there are really 3 ways to do it, and two are guaranteed to get fan boy complaints.

1. If the movie sticks to the plot and follows what happens in the game then fan boys will complain that it's nothing more than a walk-through of the game, a game they already played.

2. If you take the basic premise/plot of the game and go your own direction with it, the fan boys will complain that you aren't being true to the source material.

3. Take the source material and make a movie that takes place before, after, or between (for games with sequels) the events in the video game. What makes this different from #2 is that it can't contradict what happens in the games (no plot holes).

Fortunately I can't think of any movies that chose #1. Probably because even a short game is still going to be 2-3 times longer than then movie should be so a lot of cutting would be involved which could easily ruin the flow and make the plot fragmented. #2 seems to be the most popular choice for movie makers since it gives them a starting off point but doesn't constrain them from branching out. Fortunately there has been a few recent video game movies that chose option 3 and they seem to be pretty good (example: Dead Space animated movies). This would be the best option I think for an Uncharted movie. Either a prequel or set between games 1 & 2 (if there is a time gap between the two games (don't know, haven't played them).

But if you want to talk bad movie adaptions I've got one name for you..... Catwoman
They couldn't get anything right and even Halle Berry said the movie was crap.

Mr. Omega:

LordLundar:
Aww, how cute. Look at all the people screaming about one line in the entire video.

QUOTED FOR FUCKING TRUTH. I'm going to ignore the rest of it, because it just feeds the flames, though.

This thread has gotten WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic. It's gone from "movie adaptation of games" to the ol' "East vs West" debate, complete with flamewars! Seriously, can't someone just make an "East vs West" thread so we can get back to discussing what the video was actually about?

Apparently not, because then people wouldn't be able to complain about how biased moviebob is and how all his videos suck

Macrobstar:
ARGH, FFS Bob stop making me hate you, uncharteds story was good i agree, but when you put in "for a western developer" seriously? WHAT PLAnET ARE YOU ON, Bioshock, Dragon age, mass effect, Red dead redemption

He is from the Nintendo Planet. You know, those that are famous for good story /sarcasm. Also, why would you make a super mario bros movie? What the fuck whould it be about? Mario has no story

Um, Bob, you do know that Valve and Bioware are western developers, right? Because whatever eastern developed high-quality story game you are eluding to (Probably the Persona series) doesn't have nearly as high of quality writing as ANY game developed by both of those western firms (Well, maybe higher quality than Dragon Age II, but that was a rush job..)

Not to mention the HUGE mistake you made, the one that every movie critic who analyzes games makes. See, movies tell stories MUCH differently than games, and trying to compare the two is ridiculous and uninsightful. For example, would Portal work as a movie? No, but it is the height of story and artistic merit in a game, yet you analyze Uncharted as if it where a movie, not even playing it. Now, I've never played it, but I'm not going to criticize it's story just from the cutscene footage. Next time you want to attack a game based on story, play it, or else you haven't gotten the full effect of the story.

And Hollywood definitely should stop making movies out of games, as they should stop making movies out of books, or any other form of artistic expression. Gesh, next thing you know Hollywood will be making Bedroom in Arles: The Movie...

Tarantino was only a guest director on that movie for one small scene. Robert Rodriguez was the actual director of Sin City.

Yes you are correct in that. My bad. Credit should go where credit is due. I think I attribute a greater role to Tarantino because in one of the behind the scenes videos both he and Rodriguez talked about how they wanted to faithfully reproduce the works of Frank Miller vs try to put any kind of personal spin on it which is why I included it.

Flamma Man:
You couldn't go without saying "from a western developer" could you? So, what, are eastern developers better at telling a story?

Seriously, not going to even go further into it.

That comment also made me raise an eyebrow. I've been under the impression that western developers have been leading the charge for the narrative evolution of video games for quite some time now.

EDIT: Okay, wow. I just glanced some of the posts proceeding mine and some of you guys need to calm the fuck down. Bob specializes in film criticism and while "The Big Picture" is not necessarily a show about films, he never claims to be an expert on writing in video games. I may not agree with him either, but there's no reason to treat this as some kind of attack nor is it cause to believe he's some kind of ignorant jack ass.

Also, it completely perplexes me that some of you don't understand that this show is about Bob's opinions. This is a blog, a column, a fireside chat, an informal discussion... whatever you want to call it. If you don't like his opinions, that's okay, don't watch this show, but don't let that "ruin Movie Bob" for you. The only thing I would criticize in this regard is Bob's lack of response to viewer feedback. It would be nice to see him defend his points further after stating them.

Macrobstar:
ARGH, FFS Bob stop making me hate you!

I kind of agree... I really like Bob's Movie reviews but his "big picture" videos are starting to make me want to tune out. He's starting to push his personal views/opinions on me and I'm not really agreeing with any of them. Half the time I'm tuning in to see how he's going to tick me off next lol.

themerrygambit:

Tarantino was only a guest director on that movie for one small scene. Robert Rodriguez was the actual director of Sin City.

Well yes you are correct in that. I actually think they Co-Directed that movie, but the main reason I didn't Mention Rodriguez is because I have mixed feelings about his interpretation of 300. But yes he should also be mentioned because while on one hand 300 could have been better in my opinion on the other it was very faithful to the comic it was based on. So yeah thanks for pointing that one out.

I hope you're making these mistakes delibarately, because Rodriguez didn't direct 300, Zack Snider did.

Portal is the best story told in video games?

Really?

A good experience and a good story are not the same thing.

Uncharted have pretty much the same plot of Romancing the Stone.
Don't expect too much.

Casual Shinji:

themerrygambit:

Tarantino was only a guest director on that movie for one small scene. Robert Rodriguez was the actual director of Sin City.

Well yes you are correct in that. I actually think they Co-Directed that movie, but the main reason I didn't Mention Rodriguez is because I have mixed feelings about his interpretation of 300. But yes he should also be mentioned because while on one hand 300 could have been better in my opinion on the other it was very faithful to the comic it was based on. So yeah thanks for pointing that one out.

I hope you're making these mistakes delibarately, because Rodriguez didn't direct 300, Zack Snider did.

Duly Noted and corrected, Got mixed up on that one.

after the relative success of Prince of Persia I'm willing to be a tiny bit more optimistic about video game licensed movies...it's just that I don't give a crap about Uncharted and I wanna see my Legend of Zelda movie already! I think if it was something between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess it could have a chance, but just like we gave the Prince of Persia a name, we're going to have to accept a voice for Link. Unless we're being hilariously ironic I don't think we can make a feature length film where the main character doesn't talk...

Well this flew under my radar.

So they are making a movie. Based on a game that steals plots and ideas from movies.

Could they not just make another Indiana Jones movie? And can this one not suck as bad as the last one?

samus17:
Moviebob, are you really downing a game's story you haven't even played? You're saying it comes off as a second rate national treasure and whatnot, but you haven't even played either all the way to completion? You don't own a ps3? You just (implying here) youtube'd the cutscenes? Yet you know enough to put down the story in your video? I'm not saying it is or is not worth downing, all I'm pointing out is that you're REALLY not giving yourself any credibility here. Not very professional there Moviebob...

Rewatch the video, he says he hasn't played the game BUT he has watched all the cinematics on YouTube. So have I, and tbh that is perfectly valid for reviewing the merits of that games story. Sure some of the nuance and banter of gameplay is lost, but honestly watching them I saw what was a coherent and self contained story. Decent, no obviously terrible points, some fridge logic moments, but palatable and mildly amusing.

To all those trumping out examples of great game stories, examine them closer. Mass Effect (my favorite games ever) and DA are great, but the main plots are 31 flavors of stupid. It's great for the characters. Same goes for most of the other examples. In pure narrative terms the stories are b-rate at best. Read the works of Asimov, Tolkien, Doyle, Tolstoy, etc. and see how the stories compare. About the same as TV and film, which is usually poorly. See if we try to judge games by great stories in literature they will always fail, like movies have. Where they can elevate them to the same level, is by playing their strengths. The Godfather, the story isn't what makes it great though it is good. What makes it great is by using the effects of a movie to draw out the world to life.

The Lord of the Rings as a novel has an immensely rich, nuanced, and fantastic story. The depth propels it to levels of greatness which modern fantasy rarely rises. What it excells at is providing that sense of history and place. Go back and read it though, read the fight in Balin's tomb, or Helms Deep. It is 'they killed 20 orcs and ran down the stairs', or 'Gandalf appeared with the riders of Rohan and saved the day'. The action sequences are terrible. As a movie though much of the sense of history is lost, or only appears to those with a deep knowledge of the books. What it improves on though is the ability to provide tension from direct conflict, combat being but one aspect of it. Boromir's betrayal had more weight for having seen his looks at the ring, where it is portrayed in the book, but to less effect.

tl;dr great stories for a game mean different things than great stories. Great game stories we've seen are NOT great stories, but often have great elements in them.

themilo504:
i dont realy care about uncharted the movie my dream is that mass effect gets a good movie. it isent a star wars ripoff its a science fiction world with its own aliens worlds and science. you can easily make a side story to the main game.but it while probaly wont do that and try to retell the story of mass effect 1 if were lucky.

Watch Babylon 5, that's the closest we'll probably ever get to a Mass Effect TV series. It's pretty clear B5 was a huge inspiration to the ME devs.

MacNille:

Macrobstar:
ARGH, FFS Bob stop making me hate you, uncharteds story was good i agree, but when you put in "for a western developer" seriously? WHAT PLAnET ARE YOU ON, Bioshock, Dragon age, mass effect, Red dead redemption

He is from the Nintendo Planet. You know, those that are famous for good story /sarcasm. Also, why would you make a super mario bros movie? What the fuck whould it be about? Mario has no story

They already did, it was... horrible

bahumat42:
And stop being defensive , the western worlds gaming companies have only recently started telling good stories, (And even then only good by gaming standards). Cut him a little slack, he's a film reviewer he won't have played every game under the sun.

When you\re being paid to talk about media, on a gaming site, and you choose to discuss games I'd expect you to do your research. Bob's Nintendo fanaticism clouds him from any interesting discussion on the subject, as was just as evident here as its always been. He doesn't even give examples of these apparently [or at least implied] superior games that tell a story. It couldn't be anything from Nintendo [unless he really believes Mario's a good story and wasn't joking in his Game Overthinker videos], the Final Fantasy games are well known for not telling a great story - same goes for Metal Gear Solid, so what he's trying to discuss I'm not sure...they're not terrible gaming stories, as a plot to get you from A to B - but they aren't strong stories with a sense of character such as the likes of the Assassins Creed series.

Fappy:
The only thing I would criticize in this regard is Bob's lack of response to viewer feedback. It would be nice to see him defend his points further after stating them.

Yeah, I'm sure that'd go over real well rather than turn into an even larger flamefest.

Amusingly enough, when I look at how much people are complaining about this one remark - one that isn't even wrong, they just don't like how it's structured - I can't help but feel like they're missing the big picture.

That's right. I went there.

After todays news, would've liked a reference to the Akira movie.

I agree the "for a western developed video game" line. Though western developers continue to perfect the *methods* of storytelling in games beyond the usual cutscenes and textlogs, (Half Life 2, Mass Effect, Heavy Rain) the Japanese developers excel in the sheer variety and quality of the stories (Ace Attorney, Okami, Persona 4). Bioware may have a lot of stories, but they all feel more and more like more refined versions of a winning formula. The east also has a better Quality/Quantity ratio of good stories compared to the brown shooters and übermasculine power fantasies that flood the western market.

Both sides have their share of bad games and cliches (i.e. angsty teenagers fighting satan, gruff grizzled men with a thing for hugging walls, REALLY big swords etc) But I think japanese games have the redeeming features in storytelling that make up for this.

"for a western developed video game" ?!

Because the JRPGs really have good plot lines. All I have to say is BIOWARE! Even Dragon Age II (Their worst storyline) was gold compared to other games.

And Uncharted had a good plot, you might know that if you bothered to play it!

The preferences on how gaming presentation is just that: preferences. Anyone who disagrees is probably riding ego. Did there really need to be a one-line-caused debate? o.o

But as long as I'm here, IS there a string of conversations on this thread that keeps true to the (intended) topic? D':

Well, I have to agree on this:

- The Story of Uncharted is pretty damn generic.

- Nathan is an uninteresting protagonist - it still baffles me that he was created by the same guys who gave us Jak and Daxter.

However, Bob, WHY would you want to see a Nintendo licensed movie? Characters like Link and Mario have about as much personality as a sack of potatoes. We know you are a Nintendo fanboy. We know you said that 'fanboy' doesn't deserve to have a negative connotation. But come on, most Nintendo games are as shallow as a dried up mud pool.

Shjade:

Fappy:
The only thing I would criticize in this regard is Bob's lack of response to viewer feedback. It would be nice to see him defend his points further after stating them.

Yeah, I'm sure that'd go over real well rather than turn into an even larger flamefest.

Amusingly enough, when I look at how much people are complaining about this one remark - one that isn't even wrong, they just don't like how it's structured - I can't help but feel like they're missing the big picture.

That's right. I went there.

I DID in fact see precisely what you did there.

I like how you said that you haven't played either of the games from beginning to end, yet go on to criticize the story after only watching clips of the game. That's like if I wrote a review of a movie after only seeing the trailer.

I don't even know why I watch these anymore...

themerrygambit:

Macrobstar:
ARGH, FFS Bob stop making me hate you!

I kind of agree... I really like Bob's Movie reviews but his "big picture" videos are starting to make me want to tune out. He's starting to push his personal views/opinions on me and I'm not really agreeing with any of them. Half the time I'm tuning in to see how he's going to tick me off next lol.

Before he had great insight on a lot of topics but the past 2 episodes his logic has been a bit wierd to be honest

Shjade:
Amusingly enough, when I look at how much people are complaining about this one remark - one that isn't even wrong, they just don't like how it's structured

Way to just make a controversial statement without any kind of reasoning or explanation behind it to back it up...If you make a remark like that, and I think based on his previous works it pretty clear Bob's attempting to troll people, expect to get called out on it.

Do explain, just why is that comment "not wrong".

ProjectTrinity:

IS there a string of conversations on this thread that keeps true to the (intended) topic? D':

The "intended" discussion is so lackluster and has been done to death many a time - go find one of the million and one threads already created on this area.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here