Zero Punctuation: Dragon Age II

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Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

I don't recall him saying such. But his review was very, very, very positive.

No it wasn't it was mostly negative and flat until the end when he said he wasn't finishing but he was enjoying it despite itself.

Watch the review again. The only real negative thing he said about the first game was how everyone talks while splattered in gore. That was about the ONLY point he made again it. The rest were more praising it's use of great dialogue, characterization, and all that.

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

I don't recall him saying such. But his review was very, very, very positive.

No it wasn't it was mostly negative and flat until the end when he said he wasn't finishing but he was enjoying it despite itself.

Watch the review again. The only real negative thing he said about the first game was how everyone talks while splattered in gore. That was about the ONLY point he made again it. The rest were more praising it's use of great dialogue, characterization, and all that.

I watched it before the last post. I think u need to watch it again. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

It was cheery by his standards but nothing on a Painkiller level.

I admit the first game was pretty good. But, I have to say that I am disappointed, like Yahtzee with DA:2 for the simple reason that the game play is not fun. The whole point of an RPG battle system is for tactics, killing dudes, and looking awesome while doing so. There is no targeting system at all, and the whole 'target the enemy that your looking at' is sort of FPS thing that does not work in this game, you really should turn 'auto-attack' on just to avoid RSI. Give Resonance of Fate anytime, the plot and dialogue weren't well written but it had the decency of being fun to play. That's the thing he goes for, whether the game is fun or not.

Is it just me, or does Yahtzee have a reoccurring joke every video?
(Burgerking kids club)

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

No it wasn't it was mostly negative and flat until the end when he said he wasn't finishing but he was enjoying it despite itself.

Watch the review again. The only real negative thing he said about the first game was how everyone talks while splattered in gore. That was about the ONLY point he made again it. The rest were more praising it's use of great dialogue, characterization, and all that.

I watched it before the last post. I think u need to watch it again. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

It was cheery by his standards but nothing on a Painkiller level.

I did. Yahtzee liked the game. He thought it was a good game.

He DID NOT like Dragon Age II, apparently.

Man, the wooden hair thing was such a huge irritation for me in ME/ME2. They have such nicely-done skin textures on the face, and then it hits this rigid line of hair which looks completely unnatural. Wtf is up with that? Did they run out of budget after doing all the skin and facial features but just before they got to the hair?

Linkassassin360:
Is it just me, or does Yahtzee have a reoccurring joke every video?
(Burgerking kids club)

I don't think he has one in every video, but he definitely likes to do that. The example that stands out the most for me was his whole cats thing in the Just Cause 2 review.

NORWICH FOR THE WIN!!!

So...

Dragon Age Origins: It's really a problem that you play the same game with multiple races and backstories...

Dragon Age II: It's really a problem that you play the same game with a single race and backstory available.

That sound you're hearing are the developers smacking their heads against a wall realizing that the only way to please some people is... well, impossible. :)

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:
From what I've heard, the game feels quite rushed and unpolished but it's still a good game. Not just amazing like the previous one.

According to reports from Bioware, we can blame EA. Bioware's dev team had a good few months to go to finish the game, in both polish as well as story, and EA told them to rush it right out the door before the final tweaks could be made.

So while Bioware wanted to aim for the First category you outlined, Yahtzee, their publisher suck "Fuck that shit" to that goal and had them toss it into the second category.

DA:O was not amazing. It was Bioware's worst game unless you were playing NWN's offline.

DAO was amazing, you don't know what the fuck are you talking about.

Earaldor Xerron:
While I will not say that DA II is better than Ps:T (that would akin to sacrilege) or MoB, it's still a good game imho. Others being better is not that bad.
Also, few agree, but I reall hated DA:O-s story. It was boring, typical and predicable, and it tried to seem so much more than it was. OH EPIC! No, it wasn't epic. Epic in fantasy has to include gods or some semi-godly creature. Not paranoid backstabbing idiots, whose backstory is about as fantasy-like as your avarage Brazilian soap opera. I can accept that "dark fantasy" equals to "realism" and "human (not the race) characters" but this does not work with epicness. Not in fantasy. DA II chose it's range much better for this kind of perspective and while the rush probably effected this part of the game as well, it's still an interesting story about a woman/man who is...well, more or less a normal human.
It's true that everyone is racist or fanatic or has some kind of defect. That has a negative impact on "reality".

wow, you don't really know what youre talking about, DAO DID envolve gods, old gods in fact, the archdemon is actually an old god that was tainted with Darkspawn blood.

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

DA:O was not amazing. It was Bioware's worst game unless you were playing NWN's offline.

Too bad even Yahtzee couldn't come up with anything to say negatively about DA:O other than the whole "talking while covered in blood" thing. Go suck on that.

He didnt even finish the game. I though the the first 15 hours of DA:O was some of Bioware's best work the next 15 hours was their worse by far.

again, you're wrong, Yahtzee played for about 25 hours(he said it himself), and that he was actually enjoying the game, particularly because he was always interested in knowing what will happen next.
get your facts straight.

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

Watch the review again. The only real negative thing he said about the first game was how everyone talks while splattered in gore. That was about the ONLY point he made again it. The rest were more praising it's use of great dialogue, characterization, and all that.

I watched it before the last post. I think u need to watch it again. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

It was cheery by his standards but nothing on a Painkiller level.

I did. Yahtzee liked the game. He thought it was a good game.

He DID NOT like Dragon Age II, apparently.

True, he didn't said ANYTHING good about DA2, except that is kinda hard to dislike the companions, but that's it.

(Be warned: There will be DAO and DAII spoilers in this post!)

Yes, sorry, you are right, they are (were) creatures of godly power, previously worshipped as gods, and what else makes a god than beleief.
However, they are pure evil, don't really talk or show much sign of intelligence (though they said to posess terrible intellect) or consciousness for that matter: they just exist to carry out vengence, nothing more, even if the lore says otherwise, I saw no signs of that intellect. It's not like the darkspawn needed much strategy, nor did they seem to employ any. They were not stupid, but that's it.

A god in my book is a creature at least conscious and possibly intelligent as well. If it's only a conscious being, as in a natural god (like many of those worshipped in the far east) then it is always in balance with the world. There is the question of which world (for a creature in balance with another world then where it actually is probably would try and rearrange things, much to the misfortune of the world's denizens). If it's intellient as well, then it probably has more on it's mind than destruction. The Maker, for example has both consciosness and intellect, shamelessly "copying" the God of Christianity (for the most part). He has goals, ideas, philosophy and gets rather pissed off when something doesn't go according to plan: much like a human (not as much as the Greek gods, but a bit more than his Christian "original").

The Archdemon doesn't fall into either category, it's a vessel of destruction and (fairly pointless) vengence. They might have intelligence but they seem to have no consciousness and that doesn't make a god, it doesen't even make a living thing (and thus it's not even a demigod). It's a machine, a magical spell, really close to a "simple" force: predictable and boring, although terrible indeed.

And that's why they didn't feel like gods to me, even if technically they are. I wanted the Maker in the story, or at least his avatar or emissary or angel or whatever. There was no sign whatsoever that he actually existed and while that's okay IRL or even in a sci-fi, it's not okay in an epic fantasy story. All you have in the game are legends and dogma and some ambiguous clues.

DA2 found a much better scope for a dark fantasy setting. If it's all about realism, then seeing world history in the making (and influencing it a bit) is the most "epic" you can get. Is that too little? You influenced the whole world to some extent, but more importantly saw an event that will have an impact on the whole world of the game. I for one, can't wait to see what the consequences will be and how that will play a (hopefully major) part in DAIII or an expansion pack.

cisjeay:

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

I watched it before the last post. I think u need to watch it again. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

It was cheery by his standards but nothing on a Painkiller level.

I did. Yahtzee liked the game. He thought it was a good game.

He DID NOT like Dragon Age II, apparently.

True, he didn't said ANYTHING good about DA2, except that is kinda hard to dislike the companions, but that's it.

And that we can blame on EA, who pushed Bioware to release DA2 before it could be completed and polished to a mirror sheen like they did DA:O.

cisjeay:

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

I watched it before the last post. I think u need to watch it again. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

It was cheery by his standards but nothing on a Painkiller level.

I did. Yahtzee liked the game. He thought it was a good game.

He DID NOT like Dragon Age II, apparently.

True, he didn't said ANYTHING good about DA2, except that is kinda hard to dislike the companions, but that's it.

And that we can blame on EA, who pushed Bioware to release DA2 before it could be completed and polished to a mirror sheen like they did DA:O.

EPIC DOESN'T equal god, it equals a story about a hero, or anti-hero, or chracter that somewhat influences the world or at least a portion of it, LOTR is epic, the Witcher is epic, DAO is epic, da2 is not epic.

Gothic and Risen are way better than this pile of crap

cisjeay:

again, you're wrong, Yahtzee played for about 25 hours(he said it himself), and that he was actually enjoying the game, particularly because he was always interested in knowing what will happen next.
get your facts straight.

I said I played for about 15 hours. Really I checked I played for 25 and the game was a piece of shit. DA:O was a certified piece of human shit and DA 2 is a dumbed down piece of human shit. DA:O had the worse encounters since maybe Pools of Darkness. It was like playing a sidescroller. Ok the first 10 hours were cool but then its the same wave of level scaled unbalanced AI that all fights the same. There was like one puzzle. The side quest were worthless.

SickBritKid:

And that we can blame on EA, who pushed Bioware to release DA2 before it could be completed and polished to a mirror sheen like they did DA:O.

DA:O was to unbalanced to be called polished much less to a mirror sheen.

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

And that we can blame on EA, who pushed Bioware to release DA2 before it could be completed and polished to a mirror sheen like they did DA:O.

DA:O was to unbalanced to be called polished much less to a mirror sheen.

The only ways to break the game were to do it yourself. It wasn't written to be broken, people just found exploitations. There's ALWAYS gonna be those sorts of things.

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

SickBritKid:

And that we can blame on EA, who pushed Bioware to release DA2 before it could be completed and polished to a mirror sheen like they did DA:O.

DA:O was to unbalanced to be called polished much less to a mirror sheen.

The only ways to break the game were to do it yourself. It wasn't written to be broken, people just found exploitations. There's ALWAYS gonna be those sorts of things.

The other way was to play a mage :)

Seriously, I really liked DA:O, but the combat was crazy unbalanced. A mage with a set of decent crowd control spells wrecks everything, and two mages with decent crowd control spells wreck everything faster. And Awakening solved this problem by making everyone as OP as mages were and not scaling monsters to match haha.

Thats what I'm saying. It wasn't the bugs. The game didn't have many bugs and only crashed once on me. It was just unbalanced. Mages were overpowered and not in a good way like 2nd edition D&D. The level scaling was really overdone, the encounters were just filler, and many skills were underpowered.A polished game would have adjusted that stuff.

Kahunaburger:

SickBritKid:

Kaanyr Vhok:

DA:O was to unbalanced to be called polished much less to a mirror sheen.

The only ways to break the game were to do it yourself. It wasn't written to be broken, people just found exploitations. There's ALWAYS gonna be those sorts of things.

The other way was to play a mage :)

Seriously, I really liked DA:O, but the combat was crazy unbalanced. A mage with a set of decent crowd control spells wrecks everything, and two mages with decent crowd control spells wreck everything faster. And Awakening solved this problem by making everyone as OP as mages were and not scaling monsters to match haha.

Well, ain't that kinda how mages are WRITTEN in the Dragon Age 'verse?

F**k You
there are plenty of games that have that problem, that is no reason to dislike a game.
i'm not starting a discussion with you, so don't bother replaying cause i'm not reading it.

When DA:O was first released the head writer said very clearly that they had 2 "Exansions" planned for this game. The first one was Awakening. In the middle of this whole plan, Bioware was purchased by EA.

EA said, "Hey, lets stamp the number 2 on this and sell it for $60 bucks instead of $30-$40. To justify it, we'll make a few easy gameplay changes, and we'll have to use an engine that the Xbox can handle, so we don't have to do extra work and remove maps and skins just for the 360 version." Now you have Dragon Age 2, and a bunch of vexed fans.

So people, just remember, this game is really DA:O - The Champion of Whatever. Not DA 2.

I thought he was going to DESTROY this game. Missed opportunity.

We need an extra review on the DLC.

He can have a field day with that crap.

ShadesOfKnight:
So...

Dragon Age Origins: It's really a problem that you play the same game with multiple races and backstories...

Dragon Age II: It's really a problem that you play the same game with a single race and backstory available.

That sound you're hearing are the developers smacking their heads against a wall realizing that the only way to please some people is... well, impossible. :)

The argument on Origins was that it seemed that Fantasy could not escape the 1960's concept of dwarves, elves, and humans. I did not mind this so much. But I do understand that it seems like Sci-Fi can make more types of aliens than just greys, reptiles, and apes, so why can't Fantasy come up with new unique races as well? Or even dig up some of the obscure ones like sprites, naiads, and lamia?

In Dragon Age II you get to play a *human*. When there is a world full of aliens or fantasy creatures and you can only play one race, why does everyone seem to pick the default human? We get to be humans all day long, it would be more exciting to see the world or the universe from the eyes of a non-human. It is the one thing that these types of games can offer that things like Batman and NBA Jam can't. Yet it never seems to get capitalized on. It is actually what kept me from picking up DA II for the longest time.

But after seeing the opening at a friend's house I finally gave in and bought it. Now I am wishing I had re-watched Yahtzee's review first. He really has hit the nail on the head. Oh Yahtzee! I should have listened to you!!!

Side Note: Having bought it I have been determined to get my money's worth out of it. The map recycling is awful, but the actual story and voice acting is solid. Once they opened up some outdoor areas it was a lot more tolerable. So, if you stick with it, the game can actually become more enjoyable.

Gyrefalcon:
The argument on Origins was that it seemed that Fantasy could not escape the 1960's concept of dwarves, elves, and humans. I did not mind this so much. But I do understand that it seems like Sci-Fi can make more types of aliens than just greys, reptiles, and apes, so why can't Fantasy come up with new unique races as well? Or even dig up some of the obscure ones like sprites, naiads, and lamia?

In Dragon Age II you get to play a *human*. When there is a world full of aliens or fantasy creatures and you can only play one race, why does everyone seem to pick the default human? We get to be humans all day long, it would be more exciting to see the world or the universe from the eyes of a non-human. It is the one thing that these types of games can offer that things like Batman and NBA Jam can't. Yet it never seems to get capitalized on. It is actually what kept me from picking up DA II for the longest time.

Ummm... Everyone here *does* realize that Dwarves and Elves actually originate in the 13th century Norse Mythology... and not in the 1960s... right? Geez... Now that there's a frakkin' movie about it, no one has any idea that Tolkein *didn't* invent the races he wrote about...

And exactly how *DO* these other races see the world? Tolkein-esque elves see the world through a long view... hardly fun for humans, whose entire lives pass before an elf has breakfast... Tolkein-esque Dwarves only see the world through terms of money, and who among us wants to play what are in effect bankers? Hardly exciting stuff there...

Personally, I think that DA did a great job of showing the underlying truth (coincidentally the same truth that Tolkein tried to show): that humans are bigoted bastards, whether they're pointing their hate towards Elves, Dwarves, Magic-users, Blacks, et cetera...

"Artists use lies to tell the truth."

ShadesOfKnight:

Ummm... Everyone here *does* realize that Dwarves and Elves actually originate in the 13th century Norse Mythology... and not in the 1960s... right? Geez... Now that there's a frakkin' movie about it, no one has any idea that Tolkein *didn't* invent the races he wrote about...

And exactly how *DO* these other races see the world? Tolkein-esque elves see the world through a long view... hardly fun for humans, whose entire lives pass before an elf has breakfast... Tolkein-esque Dwarves only see the world through terms of money, and who among us wants to play what are in effect bankers? Hardly exciting stuff there...

Personally, I think that DA did a great job of showing the underlying truth (coincidentally the same truth that Tolkein tried to show): that humans are bigoted bastards, whether they're pointing their hate towards Elves, Dwarves, Magic-users, Blacks, et cetera...

"Artists use lies to tell the truth."

Yes, I am quite familiar. I am not only a fan of Wagner's "Ring of the Nibelung", I am also very fond of the "Song of the Seeress" poem from the "Elder Edda" translated by Paul B. Taylor and W. H Auden. My copy is out of "The Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces Fifth Continental Edition" which is probably easier to find.

But you are arguing that humans are more interesting to play than something else? I take it you did not care for Dragon Age: Origins or did not care to play any race other than a human? You would not want to see a game that allowed your character to live through several lifetimes? And you say banking is not popular, yet Monopoly sales do not seem to be suffering. I guess I will thank you for quoting me; but I don't understand why you would not think that having more playable options than human would reduce the understanding of bigotry or hatred, rather than allow a better understanding of it from the eyes of the oppressed instead of the privileged. Feel free to expand your explanation for I have found it a bit confusing. ;)

ShadesOfKnight:

Gyrefalcon:
The argument on Origins was that it seemed that Fantasy could not escape the 1960's concept of dwarves, elves, and humans. I did not mind this so much. But I do understand that it seems like Sci-Fi can make more types of aliens than just greys, reptiles, and apes, so why can't Fantasy come up with new unique races as well? Or even dig up some of the obscure ones like sprites, naiads, and lamia?

In Dragon Age II you get to play a *human*. When there is a world full of aliens or fantasy creatures and you can only play one race, why does everyone seem to pick the default human? We get to be humans all day long, it would be more exciting to see the world or the universe from the eyes of a non-human. It is the one thing that these types of games can offer that things like Batman and NBA Jam can't. Yet it never seems to get capitalized on. It is actually what kept me from picking up DA II for the longest time.

Ummm... Everyone here *does* realize that Dwarves and Elves actually originate in the 13th century Norse Mythology... and not in the 1960s... right?

Legends of dwarves and elves are much older than that. Given their prevalence in both Norse, Irish, Scottish, and German mythologies, you're probably looking at origination in late period germanic celts which then spread up to Ireland/Scotland and through Denmark to the Norse. The earliest written bit is a 11th century poem.

It's also possible, though unlikely, that it spread the other way. Going from the Norse to the Germans to the Irish/Scottish. But that would make it even older.

quote="Gyrefalcon" post="6.274071.13267546"]
But you are arguing that humans are more interesting to play than something else? I take it you did not care for Dragon Age: Origins or did not care to play any race other than a human? You would not want to see a game that allowed your character to live through several lifetimes? And you say banking is not popular, yet Monopoly sales do not seem to be suffering. I guess I will thank you for quoting me; but I don't understand why you would not think that having more playable options than human would reduce the understanding of bigotry or hatred, rather than allow a better understanding of it from the eyes of the oppressed instead of the privileged. Feel free to expand your explanation for I have found it a bit confusing. ;)[/quote]

Actually, no. Originally I was commenting on this thread about how silly it was for Yahtzee to say two contradictory points.

Your reply seemed to indicate that they didn't take the opportunity in DA to show how other races see the world...

My reply was intended to point out that the issue in DA isn't how other races see the world, but to illustrate what bastards Humanity is... and maybe give us a chance to rebel against it... and also how sensible that is because we, as humans, cannot rationally decide how other races might see the world... we can guess, and that's what Tolkein did, but it's just a guess.

ShadesOfKnight:

My reply was intended to point out that the issue in DA isn't how other races see the world, but to illustrate what bastards Humanity is... and maybe give us a chance to rebel against it... and also how sensible that is because we, as humans, cannot rationally decide how other races might see the world... we can guess, and that's what Tolkein did, but it's just a guess.

It is not quite how I would interpret the game, but that is a very valid way to look at DA2. Thedis is a very messed up place and the humans are still got the better end of the stick overall. They play out a lot of injustices in the series and shove you out to experience the world in shades of grey. The current installment reminds me of sports stars who gain fame early and then watch their own decline as someone younger and newer comes onto the field. I've never had a "heroic title" bestowed on a character turn to ash like it has in DA2. And I really appreciate the power of the story for it! They missed getting a ton of accolades for their writing in this one due to all the technical issues Yahtzee pointed out.

But I will say, since we are discussing fantasy races, we can decide how they will see the world. ;D Sci-fi authors often take an aspect of humanity and blow that up when creating other races. Warlike Klingons, solicitous droids, etc. etc. are made more life-like/appealing by having at least a single human trait to them. It is equally valid to do so with fantasy races. I like Mercedes Lackey's gryphons just as much as Jim Butcher's Canim. And we can follow a monster or non-human race's motivations and psyche because they are what the author makes them out to be. Human beings have the power to look at a glass of water and imagine an ocean or a planet of ice. We don't have to have been there. Likewise we can imagine being an alien race or an elf or a dragon without having to BE any of those things. I promise you, fiction is alive and well. As amusing as I found the film "The Invention of Lying", I don't think anyone lives there. Have a fun New Year and may it hold many new games for Yahtzee to review and we players to love.

This was my Two Towers of gaming: I had a lot of trouble getting in to it even though I liked the original. Towards the mid-point of the third part of the game I just said "fuck it" and skipped every side quest and battle until the final boss and enjoyed a shitty ending. I've never been more pleased to have been done with a game although it did sour me on the series...I'm at the point where I'll likely have to coach myself into Darkspawn Chronicles and Lilliana's Tale and those were from the good one!

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