The Big Picture: Maddening

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Dastardly:

Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions.

Bravo.

Well said indeed.

Not much to say about this one except yeah I agree. Since God is the only one I can think of that is capable of sorting out who is really repentant and who is just putting on an act its hard to let things like this go. For us mere mortals we need to see positive action equal to or greater then the crimes committed before we are willing to forget something like animal cruelty.

What about the message this kind of thing could send to young people. It doesn't really matter what you do as long as your talented you can be a monster. If we want to be evolved humans and not just upright walking hairless apes we can't tolerate this kind of behavior.

Mr. Chipman, I'd like to solicit your opinion directly, if I may: What if Rapistburger was in the running? Would you have done this episode on him?

well done bob, it is about time people stop giveing sports players "special" treatment just because they are good at a sport and start making them more accountable to there actions not just a slap on the wrist then send them back to there million dollar jobs.

"Stick Yoshi in it"

Congrats, Bob, now you can't deny that you're a hypocrite.

Although I can't complain. I'd buy a Mario football game, if only because it has Mario characters in it. Hell, it's what got me into Mario Tennis and Mario Golf (somewhat).

FIFA keeps putting Wayne Rooney on the cover. Cheating on your wife with prostitutes isn't great, but yeah, least he hasn't killed any dogs.

Would be pretty embarrassing for EA Sports to put Michael Vick on the cover of Madden. I mean this guy is supposed to represent your national sport?

I know EA tried to explain it away but they Fetched Tiger Woods off the cover of a game that has his name on it for cheating on his wife....Putting Vick on the cover will basically tell the world that EA beleives animal cruelty is a molehill compared to the mountain that is infidelity.

I kno that Tiger was wrong and that infidelity hurts the wronged party a hell of a lot, but he did not commit a federal offense and go to jail.

Way to get your moral compass in a twist EA although after 'sin to win' and 'your mother will hate this' I dont expect much better from these guys at this stage

please guys. Surprise me for once

boeingguy787:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

Nah not in America. I recall all the rage over a Marine throwing a puppy off a cliff in the middle east, despite the previous years of kids and other innocents getting blown to smithereens by the US. We have schools here in the US south named after Confederate soldiers my favorite being those named after Nathan Bedford Forrest (founding member of the KKK) and everyone is OK with it. The US has fucked up values. Yes Vick fucked up and is a horrible person for killing dogs and making them fight for sport. Laura Bush (George Bush's wife) and Ted Kennedy are both responsible for vehicular deaths but no one talks about that. Its in the past let it go if Vick is at the top of his game then he's earned his place on the cover. If he was responsible for a child sex ring or something that'd be one thing but seriously people get over it already. Its fucked up by in the long in the "Big Picture" they were dogs not just dogs, but dogs and considering he served his time for it all you whiner and complainers need to cry a river build a bridge and get over it.

I get really pissed of when people torture animals for profit, and that guy should have been put to the same kind of crap that those dogs suffered.
BTW: as a foreign who doesn't give a damn about american football this is the first time I heard this.

Vick should not NOT be allowed to be on the cover let alone be still playing football, he hasn't deserved that right. Torturing helpless animals is downright despicable, and should not have even been eligible for being on the cover. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU EA! Do you support animal cruelty? It seems you do because you're letting a man who tortured dogs for profit be in the running to be on the cover. SHAME ON YOU!!!

Oh what a sick man, between football players over here and what I'm hearing about american athletes I have absolutley no respect left for most professional athletes. If you are grossly over paid for being good a something the least you could is be decent human paid to somewhat warrant that fat paycheck.

I with you here Bob, I'm suprised that was ever allowed to play the game professionally again.

I just hope EA don't put Joey Barton on the cover of FIFA this year, like I needed another reason not to buy a FIFA game.

All the Madden games remind me of the Madden Rap

I am sick of all the sports players and celebrities getting the special treatment when they commit felonies that would put an average citizen in prison for the rest of his/her life.

walsfeo:
Good episode Bob. Glad to see you talking about something you are passionate about, doubly cool because I agree.

Indeed. I may not agree with all Bob says, but when he puts his opinion forth, he always is right behind it. (and also, this point about Vick, I agree with 111%)

Also, While I could really care less about Internet movie critics (or critics in general, for that matter) I hold them much higher on the scale than professional athletes. In fact, on a scale from 1 - 10 with 11 being the highest, Professional Athletes would be about 11... in the opposite direction of 0... anyone who makes that much money, and is not saving lives or advancing human society, will not be spared when I start conquering the world.

*Edit*

Also, EA should keep making those yearly sports games, because if morons keep buying them each year, that money in their pockets and hopefully loosening them up for new IPs. (optimistic and niave, yes.)

gphjr14:

boeingguy787:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

Nah not in America. I recall all the rage over a Marine throwing a puppy off a cliff in the middle east, despite the previous years of kids and other innocents getting blown to smithereens by the US. We have schools here in the US south named after Confederate soldiers my favorite being those named after Nathan Bedford Forrest (founding member of the KKK) and everyone is OK with it. The US has fucked up values. Yes Vick fucked up and is a horrible person for killing dogs and making them fight for sport. Laura Bush (George Bush's wife) and Ted Kennedy are both responsible for vehicular deaths but no one talks about that. Its in the past let it go if Vick is at the top of his game then he's earned his place on the cover. If he was responsible for a child sex ring or something that'd be one thing but seriously people get over it already. Its fucked up by in the long in the "Big Picture" they were dogs not just dogs, but dogs and considering he served his time for it all you whiner and complainers need to cry a river build a bridge and get over it.

All those things you mention were accidental. Except for naming stuff after dead soldiers. If the First Lady decided to run some over then that would be a massive deal, whereas if Michael Vick accidentally run over a dog than it would be no big deal. He served his time so he should be allowed to play football again, but he shouldn't be held up as some kind of role model. Anyway, if EA had any balls they'd put OJ Simpson on the front, that would surely give them the controversy they so desperately crave.

I completely agree with Bob, it I gave a crap about madden before this, I'd still boycot it. I'm not a big animal guy but anyone who causes that much pain to anything is not good. I'd have been fine if he was sniping kittens for sport as long as they didn't suffer, but what Vick did was torture.

Eh, weak episode

factory farming is morally on the same plane as dogfighting. if you eat meat, you eat it because you like the taste. any nutrients can be had from other sources for less cost.

At least Vick wasn't directly involved in the murder of two human beings. But even then, EA has established a precedent that that wouldn't disqualify him from appearing on the cover of a Madden game.

I'm not defending Vick, just pointing out how screwed up EA is.

As to the rest of the video...

Umm, wow... I totally agree with you, but for most people the general consensus is that "dogs aren't people so they don't matter". I can't find words to describe how wrong this idea is, but it doesn't matter. ESPECIALLY to EA who, if they don't give a crap about religion or you mothers, will certainly not care about some dogs that got killed.

Knowing EA, putting that guy on the cover creates a controversy and knowing their marketing department around games like Deadspace 2 and Dante's Inferno, they'll probably think controversy sells. Let's just say we'll probably all be here to say a 'there, there, poor Bob' when it turns out EA uses this video to sell its games.

For the record: I sincerely hope EA doesn't do what I anticipate.

Gonna play Devil's Advocate a bit here.

Vick lost a LOT. His fortune, 2 years of prime income, most of his 'friends'. Few people will ever have something happen that will cost them over $100 million dollars. He did. His losses are entirely justified and well earned.

Now he has been released after paying his legal debts to society. He is doing community service as part of his punishment. He is, for all public information, acting as a better person than before. Allowing him back to the NFL is fair, I don't like him, but people shouldn't be prevented from having a job ever again. Teams have the right not to sign him though.

Here's the catch, you want to get up in arms about dog fighting, fine. I won't even disagree, being a lifetime dog owner myself. That said what about Ray Lewis, NFL player linked to the murder of a person? Yes there were consequences, and no he was never convicted of murder, merely charged but not convicted due to inconclusive evidence, but is qa dog worth getting more worked up than a human life? How about abuse? What of all the people who have been convicted of beating their wives/ girlfriends? As bad as what Vick did is, those are far worse.

The vitriol against Vick may e deserved, but save some for the other people even more deserving.

I have to say, for the first time EVER I am in absolute 100% agreement with every word that has come out of Bob's mouth in this video. Bravo for bringing this up Bob.

Thank you thank you thank you Bob!!!!! I've been ranting and raving about this for the past month or so and its great to finally see that some people have the same opinion that I do. What really pisses me off, though, are the people saying that "oh he grew up with that around him, thats his way of life, you cant critize the way someone was brought up!". Yeah ok so hows this, there are cults out there that believe and support pedophilia and some of the kids are brought up that way. Does that automatically excuse them if they become pedophiles themselve? NO!!! Vick is a lousy piece of shit and the only thing he was sorry for was that he got caught.

*jumps off soapbox to go make a sandwich

In case anyone else wants to vote against Vick.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/madden2012cover

Listen I am for ya Bob I really am but at the same time I still don't get a flying fuck about Michael Vick. I really don't, is what he is accused of wrong, ya! Should he be forgiven, doubtful. But at the same time I wasn't there I didn't see if he got involved I don't know the man and honestly don't care too. From what I know of the case, man got some time for doing a really morbid thing and he will have that shadowing him for the rest of his life. The whole being represented part I get that you don't want people idolizing a man who has such skeletons in his closet but at the same time you pretty much called it more then 75% of the teams out there have tons of people accused and some convicted of crimes in their line-ups. Doesn't make them any better then Vick. Cya Friday Bob. And good on ya for hitting something close to your heart.

I think of Michael Vick the same way I think of Chris Brown. These violent assholes should not be held up as idols in our society and just forgiven for their crimes just because they are "talented".

Wasn't Vick on the cover of Madden 04? Isn't there some rule about being on the cover twice?

Susan Arendt:

boeingguy787:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

He got his second chance - he's still playing professional football and getting paid obscene amounts of money for it. He's been given the opportunity to make a living off his athletic prowess. Anything other than that? He was a millionaire who got his jollies torturing and killing innocent animals. He can die in a damn fire.

Ah, it's so easy to judge with contempt, ennit? There's nothing in his life at all that could possibly have led him-and by possible extension, you-down such a road that put things that were previously untenable suddenly considerable.

That said; boeingguy, if you believe the justice system is set up to rehabilitate people, you are sadly mistaken about what jail/prisons do to people and what 99% of prisoners have to deal with after serving time. Their lives are wrecked and because there is no place for them in the US culture, they frequently go back to crime.

Dastardly:

I'm with you on this, but I do want to throw in an alternate reasoning:

It's okay to ask us to forgive Vick. It's okay to ask that we believe in redemption, and to open ourselves up to the possibility that we are also capable of all evil things if the world were to just catch us on a bad day. It's okay to point out the fact that he's "done his time" and is trying to get his act together. All of that is okay, and I agree.
However.

Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions. It is not wrong, unforgiving, or uncharitable to vehemently want to deny Vick this spot. He paid his legal debt to society, and that's fine. It means he cannot be punished again, but refusing to honor something is not the same as punishment.

If someone robs me and gunpoint, goes to jail, gets out, and then comes to see me for forgiveness, I might choose to use that opportunity to forgive them. I'd let them know that I didn't like what they did, and I'd stop wishing horrible things to happen to them. I'd let them know I really do hope they go on to make better choices. But forgiving them doesn't mean I have to like them, be "buddies," or ever even speak to them ever again. I certainly don't have to make them best man at my wedding, or keep a picture of them on my desk.

Very much so.

Thing is, Bob isn't forgiving him. There is no forgiveness here; this is him telling us that Vick is a piece of shit who we should all scrape off our shoe and throw into the fire.

And it's OK because fuck it, he's just a Football Player. Not like he's a surgeon, physicist, cop or someone useful.

Which means, right there, that he's absolutely willing to judge the value of a life based on your occupation. Not on what you do, not on how you behave, not on anything but your occupation. Because as we all know-cops, surgeons and physicists never did anything wrong. Unless you want to count little things like LA/NY PD corruption, the Tuskagee airmen, or Manhattan Project (admittedly a more questionable event to include here but Oppenheimer was haunted forever by it.)

Fast food employees? Better never fuck up or do any kind of wrong.

Now, I'm not saying that Bob is being a hypocrite, nor am I saying that I hope Vick gets the cover (I don't, I hope he's humiliated from it) or that we all don't have nuances or evil deeds that make us complex people.

I'm just saying; it's one thing to, as Dastardly points out, hope he doesn't get it because Vick behaved in a terrible manner and doesn't seem to be a better person for his punishment, and another to hold a grudge against someone for their/your life and insist that plagues of locusts follow them.

The fear that we all ought to have of evil, is that it is done by one of us. Not them. Us.

That's why we should resist evil and forgive, but it's also why we should remember and account for what was done.

So, has anyone considered for a second this is Madden NFL? National Football League? Not Madden National Charity League or National Human Rights League or National Good Persons League?

Personally, I think Vic is perfect for the Madden cover. Why? Because it should demonstrate an important fact: Professional athletes are not social paragons or role models or even decent people, they are guys who play football well. They are jocks.

Yet still, America heaps nothing but endless praise on them from High School to College to the Pros and frankly I think its important to at some point say "The NFL is about playing football, and nothing else. If you support it, you're going to be supporting Vic and guys like him." Find your heroes elsewhere. Not giving Vic an honor because of things unrelated to football is only encouraging our illusion that football is about anything but who can play the game the best.

If the Madden curse manifests itself as a pack of dogs to tear Vick to pieces, then I'm okay with him being on the cover. If that isn't the case, I would hope that malicious bastard is not on the cover, some people view that as an honor and he should be spared every accolade that can be given.

Smallest picture so far.

drisky:
As for Vick winning, its the internet, I feel they are deliberately voting the choice that will make the game have a bad public image for the sake of laughs. Its not because they support him, they just find it funny that someone with a lot of hate gets rewarded and they get to watch people get angry over it. So yeah EA shouldn't have put him in the the running in the first place, but the internets going to do what it always does. The internet voted that a bridge in hungry be named after Stephen Colbert, a british special forces group use the Team Gurren symbol, and that Justin Beiber be sent to North Korea, all for laughs.

You know what, you're probably right! It would be harder to believe that any given Internet poll isn't being rigged by trolls these days. And even before I read your post, I supported the idea of him winning because, as you say, it might give people a (more) valid reason to not buy this so-called game. And the rest of us a semi-valid reason to demonize anyone who does. Hee hee.

EDIT: And you know what else? The underlying attitude of the people who say sports players should be given a slap on the wrist and sent back to their careers has nothing to do with forgiveness 90% of the time. It's about wanting their favorite player back in the game to entertain them. That's the extent of it. These fans believe that their entertainment is more important than justice. And since one of the reasons for dispensing justice is to provide an example to future would-be criminals, they're saying that being entertained is more important than preventing this shit from happening in the future, too.

Somebody needs to go straighten those people out.

Maybe EA will not listen to Bob, but they do listen to customers. Write them a letter, and tell them how you feel about them and their game. If they are afraid that enough people will not buy it if they put him on the cover, they will not put him on the cover. They want to make money, and anything that will stop them from doing that will be avoided entirely.

dunnace:
Honestly, I think you guys should put Master Chief on the cover. Apparently he sells a lot of games.

I like this guy, he has good ideas.

Whoa, Bob seems kinda dumb to me now, I wonder how he feels about human on human violence, probably not nearly as strongly.

That was really bold, to say stuff like that. He deserves it, but still, i don't think many would stand up like that, and say those things, with a complete lack of sugarcoating and diplomacy in front of an international audience. You score massive points.

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