The Big Picture: Maddening

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I think a lot of you are overlooking something kind of important. While "human on human" violence is generally considered worse than what Vick did, torturing and killing small (relative term) animals is a part of the Macdonald triad, also known as the triad of sociopathy. This is a pretty reliable indicator of a pre-existing proneness towards homicidal behaviour. In other words, this guy's a serial killer waiting to happen. Don't believe me? Both Jeffrey Dalmer and Denis Raider (BTK) tortured and killed animals before moving on to humans.

While I don't agree with everything Bob said, I think that Vick doesn't deserve the madden cover because a.) there were bigger stars this season, and b.) he already got the cover (see Madden 2004).

Don't think he's the scourge of the Earth, but he certainly doesn't deserve another Madden cover.

First point: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Vicky boy's been on the cover of Madden once already when he was with Atlanta. And then promptly got cursed with an injury in the preseason and didn't play all year. Based purely on that, why should he get it again? (If we're going to allow repeats, then they might as well give it to Peyton Manning every year just like the NFL does with its MVP.)

Second point: I'll agree with what some others have said, namely that forgiving is not forgetting. I'm prepared to forgive His Idiocy because yes, he did his time and he seems to be genuinely sorry and is making steps to make up for it. I'm okay with him still playing in the league. But that said, I'm with you Bob. He shouldn't receive everything someone else would. He shouldn't get plaudits like being on the Madden cover (again). He should be doing things like penitently thanking the league for giving him another chance and donating ALL his salary to the Humane Society or similar. Seriously, he can afford it.

Third point: Honestly Bob, this is the NFL we're talking about. This is the least moral sports league in North America. They don't care about animal murder. Hell, human murder doesn't even bother them.

all that anger made my antivirus go highwire!

Oh I agree completely this this guy is a suck mother fucker and should never play in the NFL again.
When you think about it it is sending a horrible picture to the general public.
I also like the point you make how the NFL players can resemble a prison line up. If you are familiar with the Canadian Football league, on the off seasons, they are doing community service work and being teachers. now I am not saying that all the CFL players are goodie goods but maybe the NFL needs to start patrolling who they allow in.

Yeah, why would you put that guy on the cover, how did it even get this far? I mean he's done his time and is free to continue on with his career and stuff, sure, fair enough. I just don't get why you would want him to represent the game, along with anyone else who's participated in some rather dreadful crimes. I mean, even someone who had committed a more minor crime and not one of abuse, sure slap them on the cover, go wild.

I just think a company would want to keep a particular image and would not want to be associated with something like that.

I agree with you one hundred percent. Yeah Vick served his time, but that doesn't mean we should just forget what he did and honour him. He's a sick fuck who can throw a ball. Why does anyone continue to support him?

I admit to not being a sport fan, and I don't follow Vick so can anyone tell me if he's actually done anything to redeem himself outside of his punishment? I know he does community service, but that's part of his punishment. Has he actually actively tried to better himself? I'm just curious, because in my mind doing your punishment and then just continuing your life with your head down does not equal redemption, that comes from choosing to better yourself and make a change.

A lot of passion in this episode. This is why I respect Moviebob, because while I don't always agree, at least he doesn't half-ass his arguments or opinions.

First:
DLC roster updates would KILL the Madden franchise. Every gamer knows it. And EA knows it too. And they can add new game modes as DLC as well, it's been done in other EA games. This is not a matter of "giving them the most up-to-date" version, or a matter of innovating the Football sim genre, it's a simple fact that a VERY large part of EA's annual business plan revolves around the Madden series, and other sports games to a lesser extent. If they did that, if they effectively killed the series, their bottom line would be hit HARD.

Do I condone it? No. It's exactly what he said it was: The biggest rip-off in the history of the gaming industry. But if I was in charge of EA, I'd at the very least make it a slow change.

Second:
I get that he wants to reform. I get that he wants to turn his life around. But FORGIVING is not the same as FORGETTING. I can forgive him for doing it. Does that mean I can think he deserves everything he got? Sure, he could have gotten out of jail. But to come right back to the NFL, be treated with the acclaim he has gotten, and now is being put on the cover of Madden? Just because you forgive him doesn't mean the things he did just magically go away. And that's the thing: Everyone is pretty much acting like NOTHING EVER HAPPENED.

Edit: Also, I was a little disappointed there wasn't at least ONE joke about the Madden Curse...

Not sure Bob realises why he's in such a good position to get on the cover.
It's not because he has that many supporters (I'm sure he has many, but that's not it).

It's because it's an internet vote.
Pure and simple.
People love to "troll" and that's all this is.

Teh interwebs. Fin.

I agree with Bob completely. 100%. If the law/society permitted, he'd be doing the same exact thing. He didn't learn diddily. That's just how humans operate. Jail rarely teaches you morality in a few years, let alone how long he's been in there.

boeingguy787:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

Awww....man....

I have to dissagree on some of the charactertraits that Bob is giving intuitive to this guy in this episode (the part where he puts in the "my opinion"-sign. But what I can say this: Someone who lets animals suffer for profit is ethicly bancrupt!

WaderiAAA:

emeraldrafael:
Just move on, cause the more attention you give it, the bigger this gets, and the more it will sell, thus the more incentive for people to buy it.

Yes, I get this is Bob's opinion page, but Bob is often the one who says that protesting or making public opinions are not the way to go about things.

... Besides, you could argue that Vick is long overdo for a cover, with his works in the Falcons.

When did Bob say that?

On the first paragraph (in the quote anyway): I don't see your argument here. The more attention you give it, the more people will know, and hopefully the more people will care. Yes, it may potensially lead to EA selling more copies, but I don't see how that is a very bad thing - it isn't like the money goes to people who themselves torture animals (at least I hope not).

Somwhere. Not in this review, in something else, but I remember him saying it once. Or at least alluding to it. And no. Its like JB. The more you mention his name (even if its filled with hate and vile) you make it all the more popular. You make the person more popular by having their name mentioned, and the people that honestly care about who is one the cover are going to look at Stats, not personal life. now yeah, you'll get all the trolls who will vote and against Vick, as well as the people who think he didnt have a good enough season to warrant a cover shot.

As for selling, they should put Vick there. The people that hate vick for his animal charges either:

a) werent going to buy the game anyway
b) are still going to buy the game if they have an interest in football

Vick is the ultimate underdog (no pun intended) story of the season. He left, went to jail, came back, wanted to play the game, and even set up a charity fund. He had a great season, lead his team to heights that (arguably) you could say they wouldnt have reached. And that was all while he wasnt even supposed to be the number 1. Thats going to sell.

Actually, I'm looking at the voting now, and really besides Rodgers (who had an AMAZING season) theres no one else that really deserves that spot over Vick without some considerable debating. You could say Peterson shouldnt even be on the list after his little remarks. ANd I'm sure other players on that list have done some unsavory things.

gellert1984:
I am deeply upset with you bob! As a Carnivore and plant-rights activist I...cant keep this up anymore.

Seriously I couldnt give a damn about pansy assed US rugby-with-pads, or any other sport, but this guy should'nt be touched by any association, it says alot about organistions like the NFL that they'd even let guys like this play for them.

As someone who has played both rugby and futbol americano, I can say with certainty that football is waaaaaaaaay rougher than rugby is. Rugby tackles are like, "grab your jersey and pull you down." Football tackles are "250-lb slab of muscle slamming into your spine at full speed."

Here's a tip: Football players wear those pads because they need them, and that makes the sport rougher.

The more you know! (Twinkle)

On topic: Vick is a scumbag and should never be given any honors ever.

It's sad that a part of gang culture in America is really into this sort of animal fighting thing.

I bet all those people who support him do so because they are literally in his shoes and wish if they were caught they'd get the same treatment...so much fail.

While I can't say I agree with all your opinions a majority of the time, I cannot agree with you more on this issue. Michael Vick is, in my most humble personal opinion, one of the worst human beings in the country. He should be thanking his deity of choice every day that he is allowed to play in the NFL instead of rotting in a prison cell.

While I don't discount that he deserves the "Madden Curse", he does not deserve to be the cover boy of the NFL's official (read: monopoly) game. Based on the actions of EA's management, they seem so scummy (IMHO), you'd think they were hired by Al Davis.

Are there others in the NFL who deserve to rot in a prison cell? Yes. They're called the Oakland Raiders. (Just kidding!)

Another oblivious international fan.

Seriously? I guess Bob was low on topics this week.

I mean sure, he was wrong. But "Animal Torture for fun" and "Dog-fights for profit" are two different things in my book. It's like the difference between a guy who beats up people for fun and a thief. He served his time for his crime, so let's not be douches, who discriminate people on the fact that they were in prison, OK.

And really though, this guy getting a cover of a madden game? Don't care.

Also, Bob I know of countries where literal cock-fights are legal, snake-fights are legal.. i guess all those people are OK, cause it's not puppies or we dealing with countries of lowest-grade scum?

Altaria87:

JoJoDeathunter:
Sorry Bob, but I don't agree with a lot of this, there are much worse crimes this man could have done; murder, rape, child abuse etc than simply making dogs fight each other. Sure, it's cruel alright and I wouldn't do it personally, but just as bad things go on in nature every day. Also I didn't like in your video how you dismissed a lot of the oppositions potential arguments without even explaining why you did so. I happen to believe that morals don't apply in the same way to animals as they do to humans, I don't see an issue here.

Perhaps it's time to forgive and forget, he's done his time and if he says he's sorry, then I'll accept that. Anyway, just being on the front of what quite frankly is an unimportant video game cover for just one year is hardly worth being worked up about.

I agree with this. So much.
If you REALLY think that dog abuse is one of the worst crimes a human can commit, you have seriously lost a lot of respect form this rando guy on the Internet. Dogs are NOT paragons of innocence, I have lived my entire lfie with a crushing fear of dogs due to being attacked by one as a child. Dogs have KILLED PEOPLE. And I really hate it when people say it is somehow unforgivable to say 'it's just a dog'.
Yes, dog abuse isn't somehting I would condone - I disagree with dogfighting simply because it increases the amount of truly dangerous dogs in society. But it is Nowhere. Friggin'. Near the worst thing a human can do.

Are you guys serious? We are talking about torture here. Sure the same morals don't imply with humans and animals in many ways, like how it is alright to imprisson an animal and use a chain on it and how you might shoot an animal to put it out of its misary when it is hurt, but this is torture we are talking about. For any creature that feels pain, you should make it suffer as little as possible. Even if you have a good reason to kill an animal, you should still try to do it in the most quick and swift way possible. Torturing animals for entertainment might not be quite as bad as doing the same to humans would be, but it is still dispicable.

jakefongloo:
One of the perks of believing in an afterlife is that murder is meh. Child abuse can make for some very strong people and rape.....so? As long as no STD's were spread and no pregnancy happened rape is almost harmless. Weak people crush under the psychological trauma strong move on.

As for torture, torture is possibly the worst thing you can do to anything. It changes their very core. It forces friends to betray each other, sell out family, and will break any mind. Any person capable of torturing anything can not be rehibilitated. It's a dominate high more addictive than heroin. You love the feeling of having something's life in your hand. Once you cross the line there is no way back, when you see creatures you don't see them, you see victims. Vick is going to lose it one day mark my words.

I...I...I can't form a proper reply to this. The idea that unwanted pregnancy and STDs are the only things to worry about with rape and child abuse frightens me to the core. While I agree with your views on torture you seriously need to think about what you just said. Rape is easily one of the most devastating a person can go through and to just dismiss it as a trauma that will only crush the weak is nothing short of disgusting. It is a form of torture, as is child abuse. The dominate high of a torturer is the same high of any rapist and child abuser. You can not hate one and dismiss the other.

Here is the adress to go vote on ESPN
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/madden2012cover

jakefongloo:
One of the perks of believing in an afterlife is that murder is meh. Child abuse can make for some very strong people and rape.....so? As long as no STD's were spread and no pregnancy happened rape is almost harmless. Weak people crush under the psychological trauma strong move on.

...

........

I... you... I... wha...

No. Just... no. I... you... NO. Fucking... no. There's just no...

...

OK, I want to be angry. I want - no, I feel morally obligated to say something, like "I wish I could hate you to death" or even "I wish I could hate you to eternal damnation". But I'm just... stunned. Utterly stunned as to how... how... I don't even have words. Just...

...

........

...I don't want to live in this world anymore.

dex-dex:
Oh I agree completely this this guy is a suck mother fucker and should never play in the NFL again.
When you think about it it is sending a horrible picture to the general public.
I also like the point you make how the NFL players can resemble a prison line up. If you are familiar with the Canadian Football league, on the off seasons, they are doing community service work and being teachers. now I am not saying that all the CFL players are goodie goods but maybe the NFL needs to start patrolling who they allow in.

Well, that's Canada for you. Everybody knows Canadians are all goodie-two-shoes...es. ;P

righthanded:

2xDouble:

righthanded:
Eh, weak episode

factory farming is morally on the same plane as dogfighting. if you eat meat, you eat it because you like the taste. any nutrients can be had from other sources for less cost.

Are you seriously saying that killing an animal to eat it is the same as torturing it for amusement? Don't you care about animals?

if you don't enjoy eating animals, there are alternatives, and they're more cost effective too.
greed drives profits from death in any case. I don't know why there's the need to draw a distinction.

So that's a no. The only thing that matters is making money.

I don't really care. And honestly, it seems really dumb to "DRAW THE LINE" at a videogame cover.

If he wins the poll in EA site, then let's take the cover and photoshop it and send to Fox News.

"Madden 2012"

"Now with bonus mode where the ball is a dog and other cool extras"

From the Free Dictionary

mur·der (mūrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Just something that niggled at me a little bit during the video. Now that's out of the way...

Yes what the guy did was pretty bastardish but he HAS done his time, I'm not gonna be inviting him around for tea any time soon but I'm not calling for his head either. Yet another reason to be thankful most of the western world has a rational justice system instead of going on the whims of the angry mob that want him lynched. Animal Cruelty, while deplorable is pretty low down on my crimes to be riled up over list with the usual suspects being at the top (genocide, murder, rape, paedophilia etc)

Also, while I respect others right to their opinions I can only hope the kind of people that feel murdering a fellow human being over an animal never get into any position of real power, thats an unbalanced and irrational mind right there.

When athletes go to jail and come out they shouldn't be allowed back into probably the most lucrative sport in the world. Two years of jail then right back to living an incredible lifestyle. Hell most of them don't even go to jail they settle with the women that they've assaulted. I don't have any numbers but i'm pretty damn confident that sexual assault is the leading charge of most of the "greats".

The NFL won't ever stop these guys from coming back in because they would lose some of the best starters in the game. But its not like the NFL is the only one, i've seen soccer players all over the world slide out of the worst possible consequence, not being able to play ball again.

Of course I say crimes I mean violent unprovoked assault, just generally the worst crimes. I get bar fights, coke addiction, prostitutes. They serve there time for that no legitimate harm they have to rebuild their fanbase but vick and quite a few other just take crime to the highest levels and come out with endorsement deals and a trade across the country.

Alot of people, including myself, already spouted about this on a thread a week or two ago but just for the record ill say it again.

I live in England and as a result dont know much about the NFL but its still about the only sport, alongside Rugby, I can watch without getting bored. The last couple of days have been really sunny so me and my brother went to the park and tossed the American football around and Eyeshield 21 is the best manga ive ever read. I also dont know much about PETA outside what ive seen on Southpark, despite all this,

FUCK VICK, even here in England we heard about this prick, a small part of me still hopes he gets ripped apart by wolfs! He should be given a second chance but that doesnt mean I have to like him and despite this "Madden curse" he should not be honoured in such away. If he had REALLY comes to terms with what he did he should take HIMSELF out of the running.

--

Steve the Pocket:

jakefongloo:
One of the perks of believing in an afterlife is that murder is meh. Child abuse can make for some very strong people and rape.....so? As long as no STD's were spread and no pregnancy happened rape is almost harmless. Weak people crush under the psychological trauma strong move on.

...

........

I... you... I... wha...

No. Just... no. I... you... NO. Fucking... no. There's just no...

...

OK, I want to be angry. I want - no, I feel morally obligated to say something, like "I wish I could hate you to death" or even "I wish I could hate you to eternal damnation". But I'm just... stunned. Utterly stunned as to how... how... I don't even have words. Just...

...

........

...I don't want to live in this world anymore.

dex-dex:
Oh I agree completely this this guy is a suck mother fucker and should never play in the NFL again.
When you think about it it is sending a horrible picture to the general public.
I also like the point you make how the NFL players can resemble a prison line up. If you are familiar with the Canadian Football league, on the off seasons, they are doing community service work and being teachers. now I am not saying that all the CFL players are goodie goods but maybe the NFL needs to start patrolling who they allow in.

Well, that's Canada for you. Everybody knows Canadians are all goodie-two-shoes...es. ;P

at least our football league does not employ criminals just because they can put their butt in the air and throw a ball between their legs.

Susan Arendt:

boeingguy787:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

He got his second chance - he's still playing professional football and getting paid obscene amounts of money for it. He's been given the opportunity to make a living off his athletic prowess. Anything other than that? He was a millionaire who got his jollies torturing and killing innocent animals. He can die in a damn fire.

Here here.

Just because he did his time does not wash away what he did. Not to mention that having him on the cover of the next game is just terrible for its image.

you better shouldn't look more into what the your country does with your tax money on a daily basis abroad... because your so called "war heroes" doing the exact same thing to women and children. you might not be aware of that, but maybe this sports guy was just not aware of doing anything "bad" either. after all, we've all gotten different opinions on what is right and what is wrong. in that respect, i think you're overreacting and no, i don't hate dogs... i'm just saying.

not to mention what mcdonalds does to animals...

2xDouble:

righthanded:

2xDouble:
Are you seriously saying that killing an animal to eat it is the same as torturing it for amusement? Don't you care about animals?

if you don't enjoy eating animals, there are alternatives, and they're more cost effective too.
greed drives profits from death in any case. I don't know why there's the need to draw a distinction.

So that's a no. The only thing that matters is making money.

the only thing that matters is not drawing arbitrary distinctions.
if you care about animals, don't eat meat and don't fight dogs.
to say that michael vick is bad because he made money off animal cruelty and that purdue chicken makes money off of animal cruelty but isn't bad-- makes no sense.

Look, I agree completely that he shouldn't be on the cover. He's a monster of a man who hasn't earned my forgiveness. That said, morality is entirely subjective. Even if we can, as a whole, agree that what he did was wrong, suggesting that part of his deserved punishment for it be denial of appearing on the cover of a video game is arbitrary in a rather extreme manner, especially when we're still letting him get paid millions of dollars for throwing a ball. It seems more than a bit hypocritical to make him a rich man with one hand, ostensibly acknowledging his value to society (as we don't, in theory, pay people who do not provide a valuable service/good), while with the other saying that he's irredeemable and deserving of society's ire. If he's truly beyond redemption on the whole, we wouldn't still be rewarding him so extensively, which in turn suggests that he has some value to us that extends beyond his crimes. In which case, there's still a legitimate argument for his selection for the cover if said selection is based entirely on his record as a football player: a factor that is more or less unchanged by the vagaries of his personal life. What it comes down to is what exactly EA bases the selection on, which is a question that we have no hard input on, and which has no mandate to be based on precedent or any other set of knowable rules. We can make the argument that it's a poor business decision, or say that we don't want him based on our personal opinions, but in the end morality only enters into their decision if it's something they choose to consider. There's no binding obligation for them to "do the right thing" here, and frankly, so long as he's allowed to keep playing football, saying he can't be on the cover seems a bit strange of a place to take a stand.

Ultimately, if we want to really, without hypocrisy, demonstrate our reprehension for these acts in a way that extends beyond issues specifically related to the acts themselves, we need to do so unilaterally, not selectively. To elaborate, given the current situation, you'd be totally justified in refusing to let Vick dog sit for you, because he's demonstrated a blatant disregard for animal life. However, what has he done that specifically relates to his appearance on a video game cover? I can't really see the link there, in which case what we're arguing for here is a punitive treatment of the man. Punishment for the sake of punishment regardless of its relevance to his crime. In general, this sort of thing is difficult to justify when the judge, jury, and executioner are the public at large, but he's made himself open to it by becoming a public figure, I think, so that's not a reason to hold back. But then the question becomes, "What will doing this really accomplish?" The guy's still getting paid millions and we're not doing anything about THAT. If we really want to punish the guy, doesn't denying him the cover of a video game, when he's still showing up on TV, in magazines, on the internet, etc... with such frequency, and otherwise being rewarded just like he was before the crime's commission seem like a token punishment?

Ultimately, what I'm arguing for is that he should be more heavily impacted by any punitive public action. It shouldn't be something he disregards as a mere annoyance or curiosity. How heavy the punishment weighs is something that has to be decided by the public as a whole, as they're the only ones capable of enforcing it on him, and Bob does well to try and increase awareness of the situation. The argument, though, should be more extensive than just "Let's not put his face on the game." I think it should be "Let's stop watching him play and write his team's managers explaining WHY," or something else more powerful if we really want to make a difference. Hopefully something short of grabbing torches and pitchforks and storming his house, but the public has a vast array of punishments we can subject such a public figure to - indeed, his livelihood is more or less entirely dependent on our good graces. With that said, I understand the need to start somewhere, and maybe from that perspective this appeal is okay. It still just feels... small, to me. I suppose I applaud the effort, though.

Understand, I hope EA shows the good sense to not put him on the cover, but I think there are far more effective methods we could focus our efforts on in order to demonstrate our abhorrence of his actions. Bob's still done more than I have, so that does make me a bit of a hypocrite for even saying anything, but I'd encourage others who feel strongly on the issue to consider more serious action. Lord knows the man deserves everything he gets.

NickCooley:
From the Free Dictionary

mur·der (mūrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Just something that niggled at me a little bit during the video. Now that's out of the way...

Yes what the guy did was pretty bastardish but he HAS done his time, I'm not gonna be inviting him around for tea any time soon but I'm not calling for his head either. Yet another reason to be thankful most of the western world has a rational justice system instead of going on the whims of the angry mob that want him lynched. Animal Cruelty, while deplorable is pretty low down on my crimes to be riled up over list with the usual suspects being at the top (genocide, murder, rape, paedophilia etc)

Also, while I respect others right to their opinions I can only hope the kind of people that feel murdering a fellow human being over an animal never get into any position of real power, thats an unbalanced and irrational mind right there.

Look guy, I understand were your coming from and I cant really speak for other animal lovers like myself but its not about valueing animals over people, its about having humanity to begin with. If you want to get technical, then sure, murder may not be the word but such deplorable acts dont deserve any sort of defense. I believe that humans are above animals but that means we have a responsibility to act human towards them, not to kill unless necessary and to NEVER cause unessary pain. Giving someone who robbed a bank a second chance makes sense as were unsure why he did it but if he shoots someone while doing it then it doesnt matter, screw him.

I think you are exaggerating, Bob.

First of all Vick did this apparently for the profit. That makes his actions not better bot understandable. Because his actions are understandable he is not the cruel monster you made him out to be. Just a greedy swine without a conscience. NOT evil incarnated. Ed Gein may be viewed as the monster you painted this Vick guy to be.

I am all for animal rights and proper treatment (including slaughtering) of animals and this is still a crime. Here comes the but: There are things done much worse to humans and I personally place humans above any animal any given day. Hence while a cruel and gruesome crime.

Speaking of crime: He did his time. Is he still a bad guy and into shady dealings? No? Then he is legally and practically a clean slate. The rehabilitation is an important aspect of democracy and "once a crook, always a crook" is a bad concept and dare I say it almost totalitarian.

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