ArmorArmadillo:

KeyMaster45:
Legally the situation is black and white; Sega has every right to shutdown a fan project. That doesn't mean we have to agree with their decision; nor does it mean we can't view it in a negative light. Since by all outward appearances they let the game go through the full 8 years (maybe less) of development and shut it down only when it was released. If they didn't want them making it they should have shut them down long before now.

It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.

Also, why pick on Sega when other people are doing the same thing and yet still fanatically praised by fans. Star Fox 64 on the DS? An 'update' of Kirby Superstar where the only new level was a palatte swap?

No, you're thinking of trademark law. There's no obligation to shut down a project by any means in US copyright law.

ArmorArmadillo:
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.

you apparently dont understand how copyright law works then. Copyright law applies only to the country where the business is founded, and so in the US, this is a simply black and white issue, in Japan, this is nowhere near as obvious of a solution, because they do not have the same laws as we do.

zombie711:
Sega has the right to do this. Did the fans ever bother to contact sega in the EIGHT FRIGGGIN years it took to make that game and ask for permision to use their IP, (no seriously a group of guys spent 10 years making a kings quest game, and they were allowed to release because they asked for permision from Activision). I know 8 years is a lot of work, but most fan games (except mario games) are shut down so you should have seen this comming.

Seriously, it was mentioned just 2 posts above you that they got permission to do this multiple times, and yet they got shut down probably because the fan remake would interfere with their actual game.

toapat:

ArmorArmadillo:
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.

you apparently dont understand how copyright law works then. Copyright law applies only to the country where the business is founded, and so in the US, this is a simply black and white issue, in Japan, this is nowhere near as obvious of a solution, because they do not have the same laws as we do.

Uhm... I could go into TRIPS and the various treaties that tell most high income nations that the copyright law of the US is respected in another country.

Yes, there's some differences, but the law is still pretty similar in most of the G8 countries.

Sonic Sucks. It are fact.

twaddle:
Oh for the love of god people. The 2d sonic games were great, yes, but the sonic adventure games were great as well. The first sonic adventure had it's flaws yes and sega realized these said flaws and completely fixed them in the next game Sonic adventure 2. And the sonic advance games weren't that bad either especially sonic advance 3. I can't speak for the other games because they did seem bollocks. There was one more sonic game that was actually quite good that i can think of since the old 2d style ones and that was sonic rush. It was the first time they introduced a new character we were actually interested in and you have to admit that fight between blaze and sonic dragon ball z style was pretty sweet. Sonic Team isn't all bad they have a few good games it's just they don't know what to do with themselves.

Adventure 2 was okay, better than one, but certainly had its own share of problems, the main thing being the horrible camera. Summed up perfectly in the fight with the Biolizard, where the camera shifts to showing what's behind you at the points where it chases you so you can see it trying to rip your spine out, neglecting the more important, what's in front of you, like that death drop (okay fast moving current, but the end result is the same). A particularly annoying example considering that it was clearl a concious design choice, whereas at other times it's just poorly done but unintentional coding rearing it's ugly head. I felt like a cartoon villian that runs into a wall as he flees from the heroes because he was too stupid to pay attention to anything but them. I've played (rented) other sonic games after that and I assure you they haven't fixed this at all.

toapat:

ArmorArmadillo:
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.

you apparently dont understand how copyright law works then. Copyright law applies only to the country where the business is founded, and so in the US, this is a simply black and white issue, in Japan, this is nowhere near as obvious of a solution, because they do not have the same laws as we do.

Unless they want to do business internationally and are dealing with a US fan remake of a game.

There are days like that i just dont understand the hate some corps have for fan-made content, spin-off fangames or mods or whatever. In the end it just give visibility to their own product and make people interestted in it... plus they can hire the team who made it if they are good.

To be fair, any fan who spends 8 years making a Sonic game instead of their own is doing it wrong.

hey sega helped with vanquish they can make all the bad sonic games they want. hell vanquish is all about going fast and being awesome

Come on Sega, can't you make another Shinobi game? You know...those really awesome, super hard Ninja games you made and transitioned succesfully to 3D (Unlike ANOTHER stagnating property you continually use that has a fanbase so rabid and insane that they make the Twilight Fandom seem like perfectly stable human beings).

Ah well, good comic, describes perfectly how Sega make most of their games..

I'm gradually coming to truly hate nostalgia and reference comedy. So basically everything. I hate everything now.

Time for the guy with the Sega avatar to chime in.

Yes, this comic is true.

The reason for the stagnation? I would guess the Japanese game industry which itself is stagnating as a whole. Sonic Team are pretty much a "Sonic Factory" at this point. They've even expressed discontent with not being able to work on other games more often. Internally, the current Board of Directors at Sega are extremely conservative, something I would possibly attribute to Sammy, their parent company. They just have Sonic Team churn out game after game no matter the quality which itself is sad.

More times than not, it seems like Sega is hitting big with new IP's over their classic ones that aren't Phantasy Star. While the Online and Universe titles are good, there hasn't been a traditional Phantasy Star RPG in 17 years.

Fan outcry for a comeback of Streets of Rage goes unnoticed.

Shinobi had a mediocre PS2 comeback and follow-up with a different protagonist.

They bastardized Golden Axe with that Beast Rider abomination.

Alien Syndrome was stuck as an unnoticed PSP title with a lackluster Wii port.

They turned the once-awesome Tactical-RPG series, Shining Force, into a horrible Diablo knockoff.

After Burner, while still good, has been relegated to downloadable titles and still doesn't do anymore than the old arcade games did, just with updated graphics.

Sonic finally returns to 2D game play and they somehow cocked it up.

It's almost become as if anything before the Dreamcast, you're not supposed to talk about it, like some kind of unspoken rule I didn't know was in place.

What the current powers that be at Sega strive for is to be like everyone else and release what they do. They're releasing new IPs, some that are really good mind you, that are just playing the "Me too" card alongside similar games from companies like EA or Activision. Of course, if they played to their classic fan base, they'd probably find a way to fail at that too because they're not Nintendo. Or, rather, they don't have a collaboration of the right minds to pull it off like Nintendo.

It's all about making money of course, I'm just not sure at this point whose money they're going after.

I want to fix SEGA, If I held some influence as I worked there, I would definitly bring the problems up, Sega has made so many games that I do like, and they arent even Sonic, it sucks that I cant do anything to get them to change.

archvile93:

twaddle:
Oh for the love of god people. The 2d sonic games were great, yes, but the sonic adventure games were great as well. The first sonic adventure had it's flaws yes and sega realized these said flaws and completely fixed them in the next game Sonic adventure 2. And the sonic advance games weren't that bad either especially sonic advance 3. I can't speak for the other games because they did seem bollocks. There was one more sonic game that was actually quite good that i can think of since the old 2d style ones and that was sonic rush. It was the first time they introduced a new character we were actually interested in and you have to admit that fight between blaze and sonic dragon ball z style was pretty sweet. Sonic Team isn't all bad they have a few good games it's just they don't know what to do with themselves.

Adventure 2 was okay, better than one, but certainly had its own share of problems, the main thing being the horrible camera. Summed up perfectly in the fight with the Biolizard, where the camera shifts to showing what's behind you at the points where it chases you so you can see it trying to rip your spine out, neglecting the more important, what's in front of you, like that death drop (okay fast moving current, but the end result is the same). A particularly annoying example considering that it was clearl a concious design choice, whereas at other times it's just poorly done but unintentional coding rearing it's ugly head. I felt like a cartoon villian that runs into a wall as he flees from the heroes because he was too stupid to pay attention to anything but them. I've played (rented) other sonic games after that and I assure you they haven't fixed this at all.

But a single camera issue doesn't make sonic adventure 2 a bad game. Call me wet behind the ears, but Sonic adventure 2 was the first game I played that featured anything resembling a moral choice system and actually gave you something for finishing both stories and not only were both the light and dark side stories radically different, you actually were rewarded for essentially beating the game twice! Plus the story was decent (as decent as an E rated game can get, don't give me this shadow the hedgehog (game) crap where he says damnit every 10 seconds.) and maybe it was just me, but the multiplayer had a lot of value.

Moral choice systems that we have today tend to be crap anyways. Yahtzee said it best. "Drink some lead-based paint and retard themselves out of existence."

Many people disregard it (god forbid you like something that isn't 2-D and played on a massive humming brick... I take that brick part back) because it was new and didn't have 16 bit graphics, but Sonic adventure 2 is without a doubt a game that shows you how to do a linear story model RIGHT. Sonic team wasted nothing when making this game. It has three (five if you count kart racing and the chao stuff) different gameplay modes which all fit seamlessly into the story without spreading itself too thin. (which is more than most games can say) and still manages to be intuitive and unique without an open world system (I believe Sonic adventure 1 tried that and it was bloody tedious!)

Frankly I don't understand why no one likes this game.

thatstheguy:
To be fair, any fan who spends 8 years making a Sonic game instead of their own is doing it wrong.

...

Uhm... This was about the streets of Rage remake...

Ickorus:

Furioso:

Ickorus:

Come the fuck on reCAPTCHA.

serek smmukar? are those even words?

I typed sereh similar when I got it but it didn't work.

That's an "S" at the beginning of the second word? It looks like an aleph!

Unless they didn't know about or care about the developer. They probably never even read the letter. Just because you inform a company that you intend to use their properties doesn't give you the right to, and SEGA had every right to shut them down. It is not their responsibility to monitor what all developers are doing.

Also you state that this indy Sonic is better as if it were a fact. It's not. It's your opinion.

Then again I am one of the fools who think SEGA isn't dead (that's mostly because they are still profitable but hey what use are actual facts, right?) and neither is Sonic. I have actually really enjoyed all of the Sonic games I've played and I think SEGA still makes other great games besides. Well that and I really, really want to see Shenmue 3 and Eternal Champions Legacy.....it could happen....

Echo136:

zombie711:
Sega has the right to do this. Did the fans ever bother to contact sega in the EIGHT FRIGGGIN years it took to make that game and ask for permision to use their IP, (no seriously a group of guys spent 10 years making a kings quest game, and they were allowed to release because they asked for permision from Activision). I know 8 years is a lot of work, but most fan games (except mario games) are shut down so you should have seen this comming.

Seriously, it was mentioned just 2 posts above you that they got permission to do this multiple times, and yet they got shut down probably because the fan remake would interfere with their actual game.

Where was it mentioned (even once) that these hacks got permission?? Nowhere. Just a letter "informing" SEGA that they were using their property.

Try writing a letter to Warner Brothers informing them that you're borrowing Batman for a few. Good luck with that.

Whoever made this game knew better they were just counting on the fact that they "worked so long" on it and gosh wouldn't it be a "#%$##move" on behalf of SEGA if they told us we couldn't after we e-mailed them and geez even sent a letter! That's the same as permission right? right? Then beseeching the hapless net for support following said #%$##move? Geez, just create your own product. It's not like Streets of Rage was so original and innovative that they couldn't come up with something "inspired" by it. They knew better. They blew it. SEGA did the right thing.

RvLeshrac:

RowdyRodimus:
Or you can do the same comic this way:

Panel One: Show people playing a game and really digging it
Panel Two: Show those same people working on a game, talking about all the features they want to put in it making it awesome.
Panel Three: (Caption: Eight years later)Have those people bitch because they wasted time creating a new version of an IP they don't own instead of changing up characters designs and names and making their own game.

It doesn't matter how long they worked on the game or how good it is, they don't own the IP and if SEGA didn't do make them take it down, then it opens the floodgates for people to make games based on any of their properties and devalue them.

I get that many people here are anti-capitalism and against companies owning IP's (until it comes to companies and games they like such as Valve or Minecraft) but without that you get a glut of subpar games (and yes, worse than Sonic '06 would come out) which is partially (read mostly) to blame for the crash of '83, which ironically enough, was pretty much caused by Activision legitimizing third parties meaning anyone could make games for the Atari, which they did-most of which were horrible- making people not want to buy any games. So in a way, be glad Sega had it taken down (it's not like the game is lost forever, I just found it in 30 seconds of searching) it might be the greatest game ever, but when you figure you now won't see "Sonic Furries Fandemonium" or whatever it makes it worth it.

They had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

I've repeated the above several times because you obviously failed to read it the first dozen times, when it was posted on every blog and thread on the subject. Not only did they have permission from Sega, they obtained it *several times* during the life of the project.

For the LAST time list a source (from SEGA not some opinion blog) or ZIP it (x 5 since your so adamant about your "facts.")

mikev7.0:

RvLeshrac:

RowdyRodimus:
Or you can do the same comic this way:

Panel One: Show people playing a game and really digging it
Panel Two: Show those same people working on a game, talking about all the features they want to put in it making it awesome.
Panel Three: (Caption: Eight years later)Have those people bitch because they wasted time creating a new version of an IP they don't own instead of changing up characters designs and names and making their own game.

It doesn't matter how long they worked on the game or how good it is, they don't own the IP and if SEGA didn't do make them take it down, then it opens the floodgates for people to make games based on any of their properties and devalue them.

I get that many people here are anti-capitalism and against companies owning IP's (until it comes to companies and games they like such as Valve or Minecraft) but without that you get a glut of subpar games (and yes, worse than Sonic '06 would come out) which is partially (read mostly) to blame for the crash of '83, which ironically enough, was pretty much caused by Activision legitimizing third parties meaning anyone could make games for the Atari, which they did-most of which were horrible- making people not want to buy any games. So in a way, be glad Sega had it taken down (it's not like the game is lost forever, I just found it in 30 seconds of searching) it might be the greatest game ever, but when you figure you now won't see "Sonic Furries Fandemonium" or whatever it makes it worth it.

They had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

Had permission from Sega.

I've repeated the above several times because you obviously failed to read it the first dozen times, when it was posted on every blog and thread on the subject. Not only did they have permission from Sega, they obtained it *several times* during the life of the project.

For the LAST time list a source (from SEGA not some opinion blog) or ZIP it (x 5 since your so adamant about your "facts.")

They've had permission from Sega for years. They've checked with them several times, even. They have no reason to lie, as none of them are holding this against Sega. It would be quite different if they were saying this while running a huge anti-Sega campaign, but that's not the case.

I know you've been saying that (as well as others) what I'm asking for is some support for that statement other than the statement itself. I looked for the original article (as opposed to this cartoon which was the first I'd heard of this (which is why I thought they WERE talking about a Sonic game at first.) and I can't find it. Would you mind supplying some links please?

Please understand I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm requesting a valid source. I know that they "informed" SEGA but nothing so far supports the idea that they had permission. Since they have obtained permission several times, I would think that there would be at least one source to support that.

The butthurt from the SEGA game developers must have been such a high level of soreness, that you can just see red radiating from miles away. Their prolapsed anus could be seen from the moon.

What's the matter SEGA, don't like it when your fans make better games than you? ;)

And to think, Sega could've offer those guys a deal. 8 years in the making, and now it's gone. And what do we get? A rerelase of Sega's original game on the iPod Touch (heard it from Gametrailers). I was laughing at all the Sega hate comments in that article.

Grahav:
Hey Sega, have you been told to go fuck your self today?

Despite the fact that SEGA sucks hard with the Sonic franchise I will admit that SEGA made a smart move by collaborating with Platinum Studios in 2010 to make the HOLY GRAIL of 3rd Person Shooters!!

VANQUISH

Arkitext:
Sonic Sucks. It are fact.

Say hello to the new Face of SEGA!

Sam Gideon from VANQUISH

a game that was fun, hard, entertaining and all around badass.

WTF SEGA why don't you work with Platinum Studios more often? It's like the moment they realize they have a winning formula (which is very very rare) they up and butcher it to kingdom come if it was a success the first time.

This strip totally missed out on a few entries for this guide,even if these are comparatively benign.

http://www.destructoid.com/this-is-how-sega-sees-destructoid-s-reviews-editor-187658.phtml
http://www.destructoid.com/sega-officially-crosses-the-line--188123.phtml

Maybe you can ask Jim Sterling about it since he's going to be around the Escapist for a while.
Hey! There's an AskJim section set aside just for that!

robinkom:
Time for the guy with the Sega avatar to chime in.

Yes, this comic is true.

The reason for the stagnation? I would guess the Japanese game industry which itself is stagnating as a whole.

Actually, SEGA has long ago found another gold mine: Gambling.
If you visit Tokyo anytime soon be sure to drop by the local Pachinko, Arcade and UFO Catcher outlet. They are predominate either run by SEGA or filled with SEGA machines.
Club SEGA is also everywhere in major Japan city, while SEGA Joypolis in Odaiba Tokyo is pretty much THE place for young gamers to hang out and play.

Heck, they even went into toy business producing non-Sonic goods. Check your local Anime toy shop, good chance you will find a few Evangelion figurine with the "SEGA Prize" stamp.

xengk:
Actually, SEGA has long ago found another gold mine: Gambling.
If you visit Tokyo anytime soon be sure to drop by the local Pachinko, Arcade and UFO Catcher outlet. They are predominate either run by SEGA or filled with SEGA machines.
Club SEGA is also everywhere in major Japan city, while SEGA Joypolis in Odaiba Tokyo is pretty much THE place for young gamers to hang out and play.

Heck, they even went into toy business producing non-Sonic goods. Check your local Anime toy shop, good chance you will find a few Evangelion figurine with the "SEGA Prize" stamp.

I'm aware of the toys and such, they've been doing that for a while. The gambling was brought on because of Sammy being the largest Pachinko manufacturer in Japan and their ownership of SEGA. Even before Sammy, when CSK was their parent company, there weren't many others who could stand up to SEGA in the arcades. Regardless of their spotty home console record, they're pretty much King of the Arcades.

The fact of the matter is the home video game market as a whole is stagnating in Japan, all companies are suffering. They're especially having an increasingly difficult time gaining ground in the Western market which is dominated by gritty American-style FPS and Action games. What works in Japan won't necessarily work in America & Europe, and vice versa.

Well, I'm gonna side with the camp that thinks that SEGA waited till the game was finished before closing it down.

It's a done and dusted program, and will live on the internets - and SEGA gets to protect its IP as it must, IP being the dark master that it is.

And as long as SEGA turns a blind eye to people swapping it around... who's to say?

But that fan remake is, indeed, awesome.