The Big Picture: Done With Dark Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT | |
Indeed... Especially in regards of Frank Miller. | |
They were pretty well done, I just hated them. I wasn't looking for deep psycho darkness from my "blowing up cars with wacky weapons" game. A lot of what TM was always skirted bad taste, but in a light-hearted way. The suicide-bomber religious nut was just another manifestation of that. However game play and sound track rocked mightily, and for all of that I love the game. | |
Michael Bay's 'Transformers' is a darker and edgier remake of the original series? I remember the trailers did foreshadow a mature portrayal of an apocalyptic tale of extraterrestrial sentient machines bringing a millennia old civil war to Earth. The movies themselves however, seemed more like comedy films with a little action thrown in here and there. I have no problem with that - if that's you're thing then go for it. I'd wish the marketing campaigns had been honest about it though. The films certainly do contain a lot of sex jokes as you point out Bob, but I'm not sure that sex jokes qualify as a gritty remake. | |
I just find it ridiculous that superhero comics are still basically dictated by the direct market, and all but ignoring all the potential preteen readers who are potential future customers. I actually think the Disney/Marvel merger is a good thing, since Disney clearly purchased the latter with the intention of marketing to young boys. Can you still have superhero books for 25+ year old males? Sure. But why can't you also publish books for the 6-18 year old market, boys and girls?
Nolan's Batman might be gritty compared to previous film and television versions of Batman. He's not particularly gritty compared to Batman comics of the last 20-30 years. | |
Comics are lost to me, I never really go into them past the funny pages of the sunday news.. If it were not for cartoons then I would know nothing about the Xmen, Superman or Batman. That being said why does every one feel the need to squeeze everything to fit a certain mold or market. Varrying tastes with different maturity levels are fine. Hell last night I watched some MLP, then finished the night off reading a novel about the fall of the Roman Republic. I think with comic books and a lot of other intellectual property there is no need for a solid linear chronology. Not all batmans are the same. Darknight batman is not Arkham Asylum and I like that. Different takes on the same great source material. | |
I'm sick of you ragging on the 90's. Especially their comics.... Especially, especially Spawn. News flash. The golden age of comics sucks donkey balls. The silver age sucked more of the same. The 90's was the best comic age... by a large margin. At-least they were trying something new. Something that wasn't a thinly veiled attempt to put patriotism in pyjamas and have kids bust a nut over it. At-least 90's comics had a plot. The early days of Spawn and the Darkness remain as some of my favourite series of all time. | |
now to just get the message out that dark is not the best thing since sliced bread. | |
I see your point Bob, but.... Kick Ass. That is all. | |
Finally, FINALLY.. someone gets it. I've been saying this for AGES. Just because you throw guns and sex into something doesn't automatically make it mature subject matter, and just because it doesn't have those things doesn't make it 'for kids' All this 'mature' gritty overlay everything has to have these days HAS TO STOP. IT'S (mostly) LAME! Thank you, MovieBob, Thank you. | |
Because they sell like shit. Although I imagine trying to get comics sold outside of comic stores would help towards that a little (that's easier said than done though really).
Nah, the best age of comics is right fuckin' now. | |
Which wasn't a mature movie.. it just had highly inappropriate (albeit funny) elements, take out the violent gritty and it was a kids movie. | |
Well it was mature in the sense that it wouldn't be appropriate for children. If it weren't made inappropriate for children it wouldn't have been remarkable. It was awesome because it was violent, over the top, and "mature" camp, yet still in the kids movie trappings. It was that take on cliche that made it the awesome movie that it was. :P | |
Really? I guess I didn't know what I was talking about. Thinking for a second, I realize my familiarity with the Hulk mostly comes from watching re-runs of the live-action TV series. That series does present an example of a comic-book character being kind of dark before the grimdark '80s, although while Banner seemed to consider the Hulk a curse, whenever he did turn into it it only ever throw bad guys around, stare at bystanders for a few moments, and then jog away. | |
Firstly i'd just like to say i'm a 20 year old man, so i grew up in the 90s, and i never read a comic in my life. Might have something to do with not living in the US. Because of that i can't really voice an opinion on "cartoony cheese" over "darkly edgy" aside from taking it all at face value. Personally, i always found the notion of men in spandex beating up bad guys to be really... odd. (COMICS ARE WEEEEEIRD) I never understood the appeal of it. Nor did i get why comic book heroes were so popular when each one only had one or two powers and that's it. Look at the X-Men. Cyclops has his laser thing. Wolverine has his claws and regeneration. That blue chick can change shape. The point is i always saw comic book heroes as nothing more than pokemon for western man-children. Disclaimer: I actually grew up playing pokemon on the Game Boy, so i'm not really one to talk down to man-children. But the point still stands that to an outsider looking externally toward a culture predominated by man-children they're going to think it's weird, stupid and pointless - the one thing my mother always went on about when i was a young kid was how spastic pokemon was / is, for example, and no amount of trying to explain it could change her mind on that, and that's exactly how i feel when it comes to comic books and comic book heroes. As i'm now a "mature adult" (or so i like to think) i tend to look at things like films for something that will appeal to that more eclectic taste of the gritty and mature themes that we as adults deal with and can now appreciate after having gotten out of childhood and puberty. Political, sexual and sociological themes are suddenly much more relevant to us, so we respond greater to them when it's presented to us in a film and why we identify so strongly with characters we recognise who go through those same struggles. I've not seen the transformers films or even the X-Men films so i don't know how this merging of the cartoon comic and the gritty serious real world really works, though i have seen Sin City and Watchmen and loved them both. Aren't they examples of the above, of "comics not for kids"? That said, i and most everyone i know loved the Spiderman films, and they definitely had that pre-90's cartoon comic book vibe of a wacky city with a wacky hero and wacky (if emotionally and mentally unstable) villains, though that feeling did ebb away after the first film. Once Spidey has his powers, the tone darkens significantly as we no longer have the whole introduction-of-fantasy element in the way. | |
I think Bob is pointing fingers at McFarlane because his role in defining role in 90s comics. Liefeld is more of a destructive force of pure terrible whose role was to show no class. Also, yes Linkara did this. And has mentioned it again and again. | |
Yet you do it anyway? | |
Aw crap, seriously? What did they look at the previous movies and say "Wow these were really good, but I think what would be even better is if audiences spent the entire thing watching pre-spidey Pete get the shit kicked out of him while making goo-goo eyes at MJ"? | |
I hear that in the new Spider-Man reboot, there is going to be a side story about Peter Parker's addiction to cocaine. | |
To me, the very worst part of this whole "dark and gritty" trend is the insultingly imbecilic things the writers consider "grown up". Drugs, sex, and bloody death. Yeah, I TOTALLY identify with this crap. (sarcasm) I've reached the point where I actually prefer the "family oriented" stuff because it is usually MORE MATURE. | |
I honestly dislike Watchman, especially the recent movie that I paid to see in IMAX. It's not really about the superheroes, but rather just some minor cool action scenes, and a lot of sexual tension through it. So I can understand how that doesn't blend in well with the crowd. Anyhow, I felt this was a really good review so grand job Bob! I loved it :) The Dark Knight is the only movie I cherished over any other superhero movie. It had a plot, plenty of action, depth about characters and major plot twists. You don't get movies like those anymore.. but, ether way I agree with a lot on Bob's opinion. Transformers is mainly about *Remembers him from Even Stevens and sighs* ..yeah, him trying to get a girlfriend and work it out in both movies, with little to do with the actual Transformers themselves. There are movies aimed for kids, but adults get a lot out of it too. It just so happened you showed WALL-E as an example, that no one I know dislikes that movie. Even my Dad's friend who was in the army loved the movie so that is saying a lot. Besides that, comics are primarily focused on which sensation of an age Group is making them at their best with success and it so happens to be the mid twenties-thirties Group. | |
No shit Bob, no shit. Problem is most of hollywood is too dumb to realise that. also, I would blame Rob "I can't draw feet" Liefeld before I blame Todd McFarlane. | |
Just a head's up. Thor is bad. Just plain bad. The romance is shoe horned in and retarded. Half the jokes are just Thor coming to grips with Earth culture. Because everyone knows "Hahaha, he does things differently than we do" never gets old. Oh yeah, and he doesn't have his powers for most of the goddamn movie. Oh yeah and Loki's a sham of a villain. Kinda for the same reason Lucien sucked in Fable 2. They make him justify his actions, he thinks what he's doing is for the greater good and then bam turns out to just be a dick. Inconsistent and lazy writing. | |
Lost Girls was not a grimdark comic. It's about the joy of sexual liberation and freedom, in everything from the art to the symbolism. That is not a grimdark idea. | |
I couldn't really think of any other way to put it. If i'm owning up to having done something that is also something man-children do, i'd have thought i'd be ripping on myself just as much or at least creating a level ground with everyone else - clearly not. I wasn't intending to make a derogatory statement, or rather, it wasn't the point of using that phrase. I'm afraid i just can't think of a nicer term for it. But if you can, feel free to suggest one. I just feel the comparison between pokemon and comic book heroes is there, and we all know pokemon are pretty much for man-children (for those who aren't of the younger demographic), and so comic book heroes carry over that same aspect of the comparison in my head, especially when you consider comic book heroes really played on both the imagination of younger audiences, the escapism from mundane school life, and the fact nothing really bad happened to them. There might be a few "ooh, aaah" moments, but at the end of the day you always knew the hero was going to beat the baddies and save the day. Otherwise there'd be no hero and no comic. To me, adults who identify with these comic book heroes are clinging on to old childhood fantasies - hence man-children. But that does not have to be a negative connotation. It's negative because you believe it to be. I know people who are self-proclaimed proud man-children, just like you have those who are proud to be geeks, and dare i say, proud to be gamers. Grown men who play pokemon into their 30s will look you in the eye like a boss while they finish catching a pokemon and say with all seriousness that yes, they do want to catch 'em all and couldn't give a toss what others think about their hobbies or labelling them as man-children. | |
Well...Audiences get the movies they deserve, sadly. Hollywood is smart enough to realize that the viewers are dumb enough to pay for shallow sex and violence masquerading as "mature themes". Hollywood's also smart enough to capitalize on the conflict between their audiences' fetishizing of their childhood nostalgia and their desire to pretend to be adults that are interested in adult things. | |
I liked Beast Wars and Beast Machines back then and they're mostly everything I know related to Transformers, when I think of Optimus, I still think of a giant gorilla transforming into a bipedal truck. | |
I definitely agree. It is possible to be mature without being angry and depressed all the time. I actually find that creating superheros full of angst and sarcasm makes them seem more like whiny teenagers than mature crime fighting adults. | |
Uh, did Bob just ask me to go back and watch the Transformers movies? Yea, I'll pass thanks. | |
I think this change is mainly because kids don't read comics or care about superheroes anymore, so it's understandable that the movies are marketed towards the adults that used to like them instead. Also, you're complaining that the movies about characters that you know are marketed towards your age group? I don't really see the logic in there. | |
(slight diversion) Here's a transformers movie I'd watch on that basis: Yeah, I'd watch that. pretty much, I agree with you vis-a-vis the trappings of maturity vs. mature storytelling. Guns, blood, and T&A is precisely not mature, it's juvenile. | |
Thank you Bob for talking about this. I get so sick of the "dark" and "gritty" obsession that seems to have infected everyone I know. It gets annoying when people tell me how much Nolan's Batman is the real thing. Now I do enjoy reading mature comics, but it doesn't mean I want everyone I read to be filled with a reluctant, rage fueled and revenge driven "hero". I also cant help but feel that the TV show "The Cape" failed because it was about a guy actually acting like a superhero. Also if anyone wants to see this topic addressed in comic books, not to mention just a good story, check out the Superman story "What's so funny about truth, justice and the american way?" | |
Why is it not possible for comic book fans (or, more specifically, superhero comic fans) to just enjoy the stories because...they're fun stories? Why do they have to be labelled with something that sounds so overtly condescending simply because they like a product commonly perceived to be for children? Seeing as you admit you have never read a superhero comic, you really shouldn't be commenting on what you believe them to contain. If you had read a multitude of superhero comics, you would see the variety of stories and themes that far surpass the idea of child power fantasy. | |
I definitely agree with this. Anyone who thinks that plastering sex and violence all over something makes it mature is so juvenile and ignorant I feel embarrassed to be a member of the same species as them. It's that kind of idiocy that turned me off to mainstream American superhero comics as a kid in the nineties and early 2000s and caused me to turn to Kamen Rider for my stories of superheroes in outlandish, brightly colored suits fighting monsters. If Thor really is just about an awesome space viking fighting monsters with a hammer I will cry tears of joy.
No. It's negative because it has a negative connotation in society. It suggests the failure to become something (an adult). Comics are not like Pokemon: They're an entire medium, not just one series of games, and they encompass all genres and demographics. When you label an entire medium as "for children" you're making a value judgment, labeling it as something beneath the notice of a mature individual. This is the same kind of thinking that led to science fiction being ignored for decades by serious readers and critic. Yeah, sometimes I read and watch things made for eight year olds when I want to unwind, and sometimes I find some really interesting ideas and characters buried in them. I also read the essays of Lu Xun and the later, autobiographical fiction of Akutagawa in their original languages and write about the implications of postwar Japanese film. When I get together with friends we sometimes talk about Batman or old kungfu movies, but just as often we talk about philosophy and classical art. Am I somehow not fully an adult just because I happen to read the occasional comic book? If so, shouldn't the same be said about all the people watching the equally ridiculous but far more acceptable weekly TV shows about doctors and lawyers and detectives that draw such high ratings every week? Where exactly is your imaginary line of adulthood drawn? | |
How about the League then where one of the main characters gets brutally raped to death? Or even From Hell which is apprantly so horrifying a description of it caused Neil Gaiman to be sick? | |
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Although i do agree that sometimes grim'n'gritty goes too far I don't really have problems with movies like Hulk (the 2003 one) and Iron man, as I really like to see movies bring depth to the characters and iron man manages to balance its themes with a crapload of humor, so i think it can really play well to all ages. The fact is it has to be done WELL, and if it's not, it sucks.