303: Glitching the Tank

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XxRyanxX:
Snip

The way I understand it is that for them the achievement didn't represent accomplishing the actual challenge set by the developers. Instead, they made peace with the fact that they were never going to be able to finish the entire game on expert, but still wanted a challenge out of the game. So what they did is they took the premise of that achievement and cut it down to bits they could handle.
If you ask me they seemed to have a pretty tough time getting through the game this way already. They also forced a set dead line on themselves, which couldn't have been that easy. Though I myself don't glitch, I applaud the perseverance of the author and his friends. They kept their eyes on the prize and as the author stated, for him the achievement stands for something completely different than what the developers meant for it. I'm sure he won't be going around saying he actually did finish the whole game on expert. He denied a challenge he knew was impossible for him and replaced it with one he could succeed at.

I get where you're coming from with the analogies on cheating, but to me they seem flawed. The premise of cheating at a test is right; A fellow student did his best and got a good grade, you decided to take a short cut and got the same grade. Not fair. But this is a game we're talking about, not something that could shape your future. That achievement has no value whatsoever, besides from sentimental value. Grades are for determining whether someone has what it takes to pass a course and enter a certain career path. Achievements do nothing of the sort. You don't gain anything of consequence by acquiring them and you don't deny anyone else a deserved opportunity by obtaining them in an unfair manner.

Same goes for the gambling analogy: When you cheat at gambling, you steal money from people. You don't steal anything by glitching to get an achievement. The two are not comparable.

One could argue that glitching to get an acievement is like stealing. When you cheat you cheapen the value of the achievement. What once belonged to a group of elite players can now be obtained by anyone with an internet connection and minor Googling skills. It would be a fair argument, however that's a flaw within the system. If companies would want their achievements to reflect on the player's true skill in matters like this they should either release a bug free game or withhold expert achievements until all bugs are fixed so no one can take the easy way to obtain them.
Unfortunately something tells me developers don't care for that much, they just want you to log in tons of hours into their game trying to get those achievements. Don't think they really care how you do it.

On the other hand, fortunately the people who earn their achievements fair and square know what they accomplished, and it's that personal sense of pride that makes you put yourself through it, not the 35 points added to your gamerscore. It's why I played through Halo 3 on Legendary with all skulls on (co-op, I'm not completely suicidal).

That being said I'd like to agree with everyone here who says glitching ruins the game for other players. But this is only the case when it matters. It matters when you're in competitive play and your fellow players want to play fair but you'd rather glitch your way through a match. It matters when you're in online co-op and get booted for not glitching along to get through a tough bit in the campaign. It doesn't matter when it's just a couple friends playing on a private server who have all agreed they want to exploit the game's weaknesses to have fun.

Achievement grinding, huh? Looks like a few people here don't know about X360A...

I'm of the mindset where cheating and exploiting is detrimental in certain environments (i.e. multiplayer Versus). If a few guys are just trying to add a few points to their gamerscore, who the fuck cares how they do it? In the end it doesn't mean anything anyway - let them have their fun.

Me? Fuck all that - I'll boost every chance I get (though I'm rather proud to have gotten "School for the Gifted" in MvC3 [5-win streak in ranked matches... it's harder than it sounds] without boosting, and I had all but given up hope on grabbing it on my own). I'm not the greatest gamer, nor am I the most honest unless others will be affected. If there's a bug or exploit that allows me to essentially turn on "God Mode", best believe I'll use it.

All right... gotta break out the lightsabre again. I think this thing can catch wildfires...

I love glitches, adore them even. I want to make a game based on manipulating them, or at least making the mechanics of a game based on common glitches. Glitches are all about abusing the system, not "breaking the rules" so much as "finding a loophole". It's far more admirable to manipulate the rules to win in my view, you are effectively questioning the established and beating it at it's own game. I love that stuff.

Srsly dude?

Its not that hard. In the time you spent trying to glitch the game you could of built up some real skills and then done it properly.

I beat all the finales on expert within a couple of weeks of getting the game. Admittedly with randoms, taking my friends along would of been a serious handicap as they aren't that great at FPS.

Oh wait, you're doing this on an xbox? That is hardcore, using a mouse and keyboard makes it 20x easier.

I did the same thing. Blood Harvest was a Bitch.

pneuma08:

Brandon Cackowski-Schnell:
Once on the plane, the only real threat was smokers, but yet another bug offered immunity to their attack provided someone was constantly meleeing you.

That's not a bug. Meleeing someone who is grabbed by a smoker releases them.

The fact that the melee never ran out was *technically* a bug and was fixed in versus, survival and L4D2.

OT: I remember doing that achievement the hard way (or should I say, the expert way ;D) and Blood Harvest was by far the hardest to do, I think my friend and I took ~6 hours. When I played L4D1 I started too late (glitch wise) meaning the only one left was the "power shot", a way of glitching the smg or m16 to empty and entire clip in 1 shot. It killed your ammo but helped a lot against tanks, providing you didnt miss (got annoying on versus when all 4 were using it and tanks died too quickly.

Then there was the case of picking up L4D2 (after reading somewhere that expert on 1 is like advanced on 2, not really the case from experience but I was none the wise then) and seeing "The Real Deal" (survive expert realism). That was my "how the fuck?" achievement for quite a while (we did it eventually but yeah).

The main way that the expert achievements got harder in 2 was the fact that you had to survive the campaigns, not just finish them.

Side note; my captcha is partially in subscript ..... THEY WERE HARD ENOUGH TO READ ALREADY.... especially when there's a lot of i's, l's and t's next to each other, they all look the same

Continuity:
Srsly dude?

Its not that hard. In the time you spent trying to glitch the game you could of built up some real skills and then done it properly.

I beat all the finales on expert within a couple of weeks of getting the game. Admittedly with randoms, taking my friends along would of been a serious handicap as they aren't that great at FPS.

Oh wait, you're doing this on an xbox? That is hardcore, using a mouse and keyboard makes it 20x easier.

/agreed

I originally had L4D1 on the xbox then got L4D2 on both xbox and PC (both pre-ordered, long story). Since the xbox version of 2 was lacking players and I had RL friends on the PC I left the xbox version for quite a while. Going back to it months later I realised that normal was a struggle when I could do solo expert (campaign dependant mind you) on the PC. Honestly don't know how I got "What are you trying to prove" legit on the xbox back in the day

I beat that achievement on day 1. Still it's funny to laugh at the mortals that need to cheat to get it, and still struggle.

I found this article funny, and interesting. Since the subject wasn't all that interesting, it must have been because the writer was a pro.

Brian Hendershot:
Kill a Tank with melee weapons only. What the sandcastle Valve?

Easiest non glitch way was that chainsaw only mutation on easy. Although saying that the way I initially did it was by setting the parish finale to expert, killing the bots, changing to easy and taking the set placed tank being really careful with the baseball bat (or wtv I used). Main thing was to make sure that if I got hit I wouldn't fly off the edge and to have pills handy and since he doesn't do that much damage on easy you can take a fair few hits. Other than that get a group of friends and straight rush.

Gears of War 2; Seriously 2.0
That's an achievement and a half to get without grinding for 18 hours straight and one I believe I may never get (I refuse to grind out of boredom reasons)

pejhmon:

Brian Hendershot:
Kill a Tank with melee weapons only. What the sandcastle Valve?

Easiest non glitch way was that chainsaw only mutation on easy. Although saying that the way I initially did it was by setting the parish finale to expert, killing the bots, changing to easy and taking the set placed tank being really careful with the baseball bat (or wtv I used). Main thing was to make sure that if I got hit I wouldn't fly off the edge and to have pills handy and since he doesn't do that much damage on easy you can take a fair few hits. Other than that get a group of friends and straight rush.

Gears of War 2; Seriously 2.0
That's an achievement and a half to get without grinding for 18 hours straight and one I believe I may never get (I refuse to grind out of boredom reasons)

Don't even get me started on the Gears of War 2.0 Achievement. I almost had it once...and then I had to switch accounts. (For some reason I forgot my password to my account, and the e-mail I used was invalid so I couldn't prove it was my account. Stupid *******). Anyways...yeah. Hate that achievement and all achievements like it. Achievements like that are put in the game only to make you keep playing it... (I think that's why Epic put the Golden Retro Lancer in their beta. To keep us playing the game. (The sly buggers).

Hahaha...love your narrative...

It's funny how you describe the impending doom of a coming Steam patch with more dread than the zombie apocalypse you're placed in :P

I can't imagine playing a game for a month and still sucking at it.

I don't really care how you obtained the achievements, but I'm curious...Doesn't cheating lessen the feeling of achievement? In other words, against the point of Achievements?

I was able to get 'Still Something to Prove' in L4D2 because I had joined a special server that allowed like 20 players and low gravity. There was even a points system that let you buy weapons and health. The downside was that special infected and hordes constantly spawned, but it was fucking awesome.

I got the achievement legitimately on the PC. It was difficult, but with a good team and some luck you should be able to do it. Now Left 4 Dead 2, I haven't even tried. I find that game much harder with my play style, probably because I relied heavily on shotguns, melee attacks and pistols in the first and now those things are not as easy to abuse. Plus my regular play group kind of broke up.

One achievement I never went to the effort to do was Nothing Special. We tried maybe a handful of times, but it is not fun at all to do, since about a half hour of work can be made worthless in a few seconds.

As for defeating the tank with melee weapons only, it's very doable, but you need 4 people together who are achievement hunting and some coordination. The tank takes a while to turn corners and turn around (although at one point there was a bug where he would lumber toward you backwards and be facing you as the computer believed) and also to climb objects. If you can kite the tank into climbing a ledge you have a good block of time to wail on him. Then you need the person who has aggro (dealt most damage most recently) to run away, loop around a building or something to get some distance on him and trick the tank into climbing again.

I don't see why glitching is necessary honestly. With a team of competent players (note: Competent, GOOD is optional), you can easily get to the Finale in under two hours in any expert campaign.

As for the finales themselves, PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. Just skip to the finale, practice it a few times, then do the campaign for real the next day.

While i can't really complain about glitching in a co-op game, cheating to boost Gamerscore is a bit of an insult to everyone who got it legitimately.

It's a well-written article, but that doesn't change the fact that cheating is cheating. It also doesn't change the fact that displaying dishonestly gained achievements is a lie.

It's hardly surprising that gamers are so often viewed with such dismissive & derisive contempt by the mainstream population.

You don't have to play mediocre games to have a great gamerscore. I'm about to break 50k and every game I have on my system was enjoyable to play.

"tremendous respect for a game that could dismantle us so completely" ? As much as I try to like left for dead as a series the ai director imo comes accross more like an AI troll, which is basically some kid with a bunch of "spawn enemy here" buttons.

The more of his monsters you kill, the more and more and more angry he becomes, anyone whose killed a hunter in a hetic battle where you're surrounded only for it to near instantly reappear around a corner knows what I'm talking about.

nice story did the glitches at the end, with 2 friends.
Bit to all you who say that glitching and such is bad, HAVE YOU TRIED L4D on xbox 360??? it is 5 times harder than the pc version, nobody on 360 has done this legit because it is so hard, we all uses these glitches because they are pretty much a part of the game for us.
And donīt tell me you never have cheated,used exploits or glitch in some game at all

I came from NoHighScores.com
I love that site.
This was a great read.

I tend to rate my achievements by how many people other players haven't been good or interested enough to get them. trueachievements.com is a really good site for checking this out.

I think, therefore, that if an achievement can be glitched, the achievement is essentially for utilising that glitch. Many other players would have used the exploit, that what it rewards, doing it legitimately is just a longer and tougher solution.

Not that using an exploit can substitute the personal satisfaction of gaining a difficult cheevo on you're own steam. My hat's off to anyone who puts in the time and effort:)

xsoenx:
nice story did the glitches at the end, with 2 friends.
Bit to all you who say that glitching and such is bad, HAVE YOU TRIED L4D on xbox 360??? it is 5 times harder than the pc version, nobody on 360 has done this legit because it is so hard, we all uses these glitches because they are pretty much a part of the game for us.
And donīt tell me you never have cheated,used exploits or glitch in some game at all

You sir, are a liar. I got 1000/1000 on the 360 without glitching or cheating.

The trick is to not suck.

I like the glitch that Valve did to me.

Erased the amount of zombies I killed due to a patch, so I got reset for a certain achievement I was working towards slowly.

Thanks alot, guys.

Cool.

Now do it in Killing Floor. :3

perpetualburn:
I don't really care how you obtained the achievements, but I'm curious...Doesn't cheating lessen the feeling of achievement? In other words, against the point of Achievements?

I'd say it depends. You got people who play the games, and see achievements as just some numbers and if they're close to nabbing 1k/1k, aren't going to wax moralities of glitching a game that affects nobody but themselves. Then you have people who whine and moan and groan the second others make an achievement somehow less "extraordinary" in only their own eyes, by getting it through some other means.

These are the same people who will yell at and remove their friends from the friends list just because they have the infamous 5m-1k Avatar game in their gamerscore list. And honestly, I find it rather pathetic people would become so anal over what is essentially just a few insignificant digits.
They've become so invested in the achievements, its a wonder if they ever manage to play games that DON'T have achievement points in it. It becomes less of the enjoyable activity gaming is meant to be to the general demographic, and some e-peen waving contest who indulge themselves in meaningless bouts of tossing around their "scores" as if it proves they are somehow better than the other.

Me? I'm the former. Was it glitching that I saved before making important choices that got me achievements in DA Origins? How about this.
I glitched my cunning up to 500, so I could make sure I got the ending I actually wanted in Origins, because the game had decided to argue with me and not allow it otherwise. Note I was a warrior, and with 500 cunning, it didn't really do jack squat for me damage wise.

Or Mass Effect 2. I glitched my renegade bar to nearly full at the beginning of the game, taking a few hours and 250 saves. Why? So I could actually play the game as I wanted, as Mass Effect 1 would of allowed me to given some time. Why? Because I hate being either a complete D-bag or goody two shoes, and wanted to play my way and not be gimped because of it.

Is it so bad to glitch, when you're only doing it so you can play the way you want? Is glitching 1 35 pt achievement out of the 965 legitimate points you earned so horrible a thing? You're twisting your sand-filled panties into a bunch over nothing, plain and simple. It's a game, first and foremost its about enjoying the game, not getting a bigger e-wang than others, and being insulted when others have gotten half a millimeter bigger with a glitch.

edit: I'm also sure the tone of some people would change if, perhaps, some of the people who may glitch one or two rather taxing achievements were disabled in some way that made normal play harder.

It's funny because I already got that achievement for the PC by no-clipping through each and every campaign.

I legitimately finished all 4 campaigns on Expert, though I died at the rescue vehicle in Blood Harvest. With 3/4 complete, I decided to make another go at Blood Harvest one day, but then an update stripped all of my achievement progress. That was the moment I realized I didn't really care about filling up my achievements.

Achievement glitches in Left 4 Dead are a double-edged sword.

this article reminds me of my time with Xmen Origins Wolverine. The cheats in that game removed the achievement credits, but if you quit out of the game to the menu, it would return the achievement credit (so you could get achievements) but the cheats would not disable. So I got 1000 points on that with cheating, but it still took me a solid week of playing to do it, more time then most other games I play.

I've had a couple achievement glitches with L4D as well, but more along the lines of getting an achievement the instant I boot the game up without doing anything, from a mode I never play (versus).

I was almost on a pro team back in the day, but my schedule didn't allow it. :( My friend and I got so good that we ran people through experts for FUN, and we did it (mostly) legit. We would use the tank safe room door thing and I think that was it.

The Imp:
1. There are no Zombies in Left4Dead. Even the developers said their monsters are infected humans.
2. What is a "Gamescore"?
3. No, never, under no circumstances what so ever are cheats, exploits or glitches okay - at least in a MP game.

Great input. Allow my rebuttle:
1. Who gives a shit?
2. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gamerscore
3. He wasn't asking if they were ok, he was talking about how fun the experience was regardless of legitimacy of acquiring the achievements.

Sidenote- one definition of Zombie: 'automaton: someone who acts or responds in a mechanical or apathetic way'.

Ah, the finale glitch.
I remember people doing that.
I had the opposite glitch.
Surviving campaigns on expert and not getting credit for it.
That sucked balls.

Achievements like that are for when you get TOO good.

I've played Left 4 dead for something like 100 hours, you get SO GOOD that normal mode you will never go below about 70hp, is when the game becomes boring and you HAVE to turn up the difficulty.

Glitching for achievement points has to be the most pathetic things in the world. The points in them self are MEANINGLESS! Glitching for them makes them worthless. It's nothing but obsessive compulsive disorder "gotta have 100%" bullshit.

But if you think about it you are NOT getting 100% out of the game.

You are denying yourself the stage of getting so good you have to raise the challenge to get "technically" 100%.

If you actually played the game as it was intended then

Example of why it is so hard even playing just finale on Expert: no pacing. If you played through the whole campaign on Expert you would be slowly immersed and train your reflexes to deal with the new threat.

But switching to expert that the HARDEST STAGE is just too steep a difficulty curve!

It doesn't matter how you achieve them in my opinion, just as long as you have fun achieving them. At the end of the day, it is just a form personal accomplishment.

People are taking this well too seriously.

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