Extra Punctuation: Getting Innovation Wrong

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Getting Innovation Wrong

Yahtzee thinks that Nintendo may have taken a wrong turn with its hardware.

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And you know what? Blue Ray and HD-DVD were exactly the same thing- a technological gimmick that nobody even needed.

Have been wondering how Nintendo will make the best use of a touch screen in the controller, Seems similar to the old GameCube Crystal Chronicles that you played with your GBA, but that wasn't very good either.

I really hope they don't go with that touch screen on the controller gimmick. As long as it has 360-level graphics and processor, I'll be happy.

I agree that the Wii and 3DS are just gimmicks that don't really advance the industry. I still have my old fat DS and I have seen no need to upgrade. I don't see why I should upgrade to this ridiculously expensive piece of hardware when I can't conceivably gain anything by switching over, except possibly eye strain.

Yahtzee I know you probably aren't doing it intentionally but I can't help but feel that no mater what Nintendo does these days you complain

Motion Control: Bad
3DS: Bad
New Games in there franchises: Bad
Upcoming Console: Bad

I mean really?

Squilookle:
And you know what? Blue Ray and HD-DVD were exactly the same thing- a technological gimmick that nobody even needed.

there is a reason HD-DVD died and not Blu-Ray

Oroboros:
I agree that the Wii and 3DS are just gimmicks that don't really advance the industry. I still have my old fat DS and I have seen no need to upgrade. I don't see why I should upgrade to this ridiculously expensive piece of hardware when I can't conceivably gain anything by switching over, except possibly eye strain.

A. new Machine
B. New and better games
C. Improvement functionality
D. Virtual Console with more games
E. There is no eye strain

Hell using your logic one could ask why buy a new gaming machine next generation

Yahtzee Croshaw:
And if you used the touch screen for extra contextual buttons then you'll run into the iPhone game problem that there'll be no physical feedback.

The screen can supposedly simulate textures you know.
You can have your buttons with feedback and on the fly buttons each game can make for itself seems like a solid step forward to me.

What I'm more concerned about is that touchscreens forced to be used with the fingers become disgusting real quick.

"Like a "suggestive and vaguely insulting gesture" button."

This was funny but everyone knows that your pinkie is for poking the guy next to you in an attempt to make them lose concentration.

I agree with the comment about the touchpad controller, it makes it seem pointless unless you have to angle it in a way that lets you see the TV and the controller's screen at the same time which sounds like a pretty crap version of the DS. I hope its cordless though, no need to go so far back to the gamecube controller.

I disagree. I love 3D, and I love it mainly because of the level of depth it adds to the picture. It makes whatever you're viewing much more like you're experiencing it.

I realize that a ton of people do not share this view, and do not appreciate 3d. Good for them. But at least let me enjoy my 3d, okay?

His funniest extra punctuation in a while. Makes some good points about gimmicks as well.

I think the best way to use the touch screen on a controller would be for vague movements, like swiping your finger across it. It wouldn't have to be specific, just general stuff like that.

That then begs the question of why you need the touch screen in the first place though, as I can't think of any situation where being able to make those genstures would improve gameplay.

I'm glad someone else feels this way. I was starting to feel like the paranoid old man shaking his cane at this new direction.

zehydra:
I disagree. I love 3D, and I love it mainly because of the level of depth it adds to the picture. It makes whatever you're viewing much more like you're experiencing it.

I realize that a ton of people do not share this view, and do not appreciate 3d. Good for them. But at least let me enjoy my 3d, okay?

I agree with you

But it's a shame it doesn't always work the way it should

for example saw Thor last Friday in 3D (only had that in my town) and it worked really well. It felt natural and not tacked on in the last minute like say ......ehm *name of movie with bad 3D here*

Srdjan Tanaskovic:
Motion Control: Bad
3DS: Bad
New Games in there franchises: Bad
Upcoming Console: Bad

I mean really?

And he backs all of it up with valid points, doesn´t he? But to me The franchise thing has always been the biggest stone in my shoe. I used to love Mario, Zelda, Metroid and so forth when I was a kid but now after seeing them for years on end, I´ve gotten so sick of all of them. At some point you have to leave the old heroes be and create some new ones.

>And you know what? Blue Ray and HD-DVD were exactly the same thing- a technological gimmick that nobody even needed.

Yes they did, as people got bigger and bigger TVs, the picture quality became a bigger of an issue. DVD is fine for a 15-30 inch TV, but as soon as you get into the 40-60 inch range, the quality difference becomes much greater. Not to mention the difference it has when shown on computer displays where the viewer is rarely further away than 4 feet away. So the switch was needed and desired as video quality became more of an issue, meaning it was not a matter of whether people wanted to get a higher quality video format, they sort of just needed to get it in order to watch TV without cringing as various video compression artifact stuck out as open wounds when you've effectively quadrupled their size as you went from a 20 inch to a 42 inch TV.

3D however, very few people even enjoy watching it, many get headaches. It usually doesn't make that big of a difference and because you need to wear what are effectively shades glasses, the quality of the picture of often lowered as it loses it's bright colors and contrasts.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
And if you used the touch screen for extra contextual buttons then you'll run into the iPhone game problem that there'll be no physical feedback.

Isn't the screen supposed to have at least some sort of physical feedback?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/109722-Rumor-Nintendos-New-Console-Will-Make-You-Feel

Srdjan Tanaskovic:
Yahtzee I know you probably aren't doing it intentionally but I can't help but feel that no mater what Nintendo does these days you complain

Motion Control: Bad
3DS: Bad
New Games in there franchises: Bad
Upcoming Console: Bad

I mean really?

When they stop doing things he doesn't like, he'll stop complaining. Just like everyone else.

Unfortunately, producing something that no-one dislikes is 1) impossible (and I don't use the word lightly), and 2) what leads us to the steady stream of homogenised crap that almost every form of media seems to be aspiring to these days.

Squilookle:
And you know what? Blue Ray and HD-DVD were exactly the same thing- a technological gimmick that nobody even needed.

there is a reason HD-DVD died and not Blu-Ray

Yes. Marketing. And having it crammed down our throats by the film industry. So two reasons.

Oroboros:
I agree that the Wii and 3DS are just gimmicks that don't really advance the industry. I still have my old fat DS and I have seen no need to upgrade. I don't see why I should upgrade to this ridiculously expensive piece of hardware when I can't conceivably gain anything by switching over, except possibly eye strain.

A. new Machine
B. New and better games
C. Improvement functionality
D. Virtual Console with more games
E. There is no eye strain

Hell using your logic one could ask why buy a new gaming machine next generation

E and C are probably subjective, B is definitely subjective, and I don't see how A is a reason to upgrade.

I need not your fancy logic, for I wield the unbridled bile and limitless cynicism of the internet.

I think this is the first time I haven't enjoyed reading an Extra Punctuation, mostly because the details are incorrect. (Long Post Alert - skip to the bottom for the tl;dr)

That whole tactile feedback thing? Yeah, the latest detail is that it will have that.

3D not being immersive? This would have been true a few years ago, when every movie company was still trying to do that whole pop-out-of-the-screen deal, but not anymore. At this point, most companies have gotten smarter and are using it as it should be, to enhance the details behind the screen. By the way, this is also the technique used with the 3DS which I've been using extensively, and has worked wonderfully. Is it annoying to wear the glasses/keep your head still? It can be, but in both cases the 3D is not necessary to your enjoyment, much like HD quality graphics.

Back to Project Cafe - "So far it can be pretty safely assumed it's got HD graphics that can compete with the PS3 and 360, which means hurray, another platform that will be out of the reach of decent third party support." I fail to see how this sentence makes any sense. If anything, the Wii has been shut out of third-party crossplatform titles due to the lack of HD. In other words, this sentence is the opposite of what is true. (I admit, this could be sarcasm, but this is the internet and that makes it difficult to tell)

"But with the Wii and 3DS innovation one-two punch that dismally failed to connect, what kind of hardware will Nintendo lead their next blow with?" - Another factually false statement for at least the first half. The Wii is still the highest sold console, meaning it definitely connected with a large group of people. The 3DS has been out for a little more than a single month and the numbers are lower than expected, so I'll not argue this point, even though I personally disagree.

[Edit: This point is incorrect due to me not reading every word of the article. Thanks to mjc and rje for point out that Yahtzee addresses this.] Finally, this: "I'm trying to think of ways to employ a touch screen and a TV, and the problem I keep bumping against is that the player can only look at one screen at a time." You're right, they can only look at one screen at a time, that explains why the Nintendo DS has flopped completely... oh wait, it's the highest selling handheld of all time (if you use the numbers for all its iterations).

tl;dr - Maybe I've missed the entire point of this particular article, but the fact stands that most of the statements and projections from Yahtzee (the serious ones anyway, not the "kill us and take our money" ones) are not based in reality. [Edit - Fixed a few blanket statements.]

The major flaw I see in modern FPS these days is peripheral vision, but unless you are willing to put a head band type device on and make a single circular screen that ain't gonna happen.

Also, Portal 2 really made me want 3d at times.

3D is not the future. It's not "immersive." At best it makes everything look like a six-inch paper cut-out, and in order to create that effect it has to reduce the quality of the image. After years and years of the entertainment industry working towards making bigger and crisper images, suddenly they're trying to make us forget about all that because, holy shit, a thing looks like it's in front of another thing because of an exploitable quirk in binocular vision.

I cannot possibly agree more.

Now, tell me this whole image doesn't smack a little of "kitchen sink" design, of throwing everything together into one package to see what happens.

Okay, it doesn't. It smacks a lot of kitchen sink design. It also smacks a bit of "get ready to pay $100 for an extra controller". I'm just hoping a lot of the rumors turn out to be false and we get a normal controller.

zehydra:
It makes whatever you're viewing much more like you're experiencing it.

It makes whatever I'm viewing much more like some cheap little elementary school "paper cut-outs on popsicle sticks" play and makes me wonder what the hell I paid extra to see this in 3D for when it looks so much worse. And I find this to be true for "good" 3D and "bad" 3D. It all looks like the same pointless mess to me. I'm going to stick to 2D, which is cheaper, looks nicer, and doesn't induce headaches and eye strain.

One awesome thing about a display on the controller is private info for multiple players around a shared TV.

My wife and I play Carcassonne together on the XBox while sitting on the same couch, and it works because that game has no per-player secrets (like a hand of cards). But the XBox version of "Settlers of Catan" is network-multiplayer-only, no on-couch multiplayer, because you'd leak info if you shared a screen. Heck, you could build a pretty good "bar trivia" game on a system like that too.

(Yeah, we *could* play real board or card games... but my XBox can store more of them than my game cabinet can, and there's no setup or cleanup when you just wanna play for a little while before the pizza is delivered.)

Basically, there's plenty of non-insane uses that I'd welcome -- now let's see if any of it comes true, and if any developers actually build non-bulshit-gimmick-crap on top of it. (I'm not betting either way.)

"That means that the future of consoles has to lie in one of the lesser aspects, such as the controller or the visual."

The controller and visuals are hardly lesser aspects to any game or console compared to console hardware or third party titles.

I also disagree that 3D or motion controls make games less immersive, especially given the success of motion controls in making games accessible to an entirely new set of people who look at dual analogue sticks as something like a Picasso sculpture. This is the first generation of using them, so there will be hiccups, but with a bit more time they will improve further.

Actually, Yahtzee's slightly off here with the "Nintendo bringing people kicking and screaming" thing. The 3D on the 3DS is entirely optional and thus will encourage developers to not make it a main focus of a game. It makes me sad knowing that new 3DS games will be judged on how good the 3D is. Too me, the 3DS seems to be more a marketting strategy. Ultimately, the 3DS isn't about the 3D. It's a DS with higher processing power and an analogue stick (a better one than the PSP at that), with the variety of the DSi plus one 3D. But because 3D is all the rage these days, Nintendo put that in the name to help it sell more and, especially, to differentiate it from the DS.

The only good I see in these controllers is a good remake -or even a sequel- of Zelda Four Swords

Srdjan Tanaskovic:
for example saw Thor last Friday in 3D (only had that in my town) and it worked really well. It felt natural and not tacked on in the last minute like say ......ehm *name of movie with bad 3D here*

Here at least I agree with you, if only to a point.

I also saw Thor last Fri, and while I felt that the 3D worked better than in some other 3D films I've seen, I think I still would've preferred to watch it "normally".

There's just something about it that messes with my cinema experience.

For those who like it, go ahead. It's just not my cup of char.

whatever Yahtzee; it seems that your bitching about Nintendo does nothing but make them stronger and better as a game company.

But surely making a button for the pinkie will alienate our british friends!

Think of the tea drinkers!

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Extra Punctuation: Getting Innovation Wrong

Yahtzee thinks that Nintendo may have taken a wrong turn with its hardware.

Read Full Article

Video games have always been about finding new ways to engage the eye. 3D is a (re-)experiment in trying to engage it further, and it fails now for the same reason it did before--it's an inconvenient gimmick that only partially engages just one sense, and thus utterly fails to immerse.

Before this, it seemed like games had given up on trying to further impress our eyes, and were going after our hands and feet instead. Vibration, dance pads, motion controllers... And some of it was working pretty well. Vibration used to be awkward and ill-received, but now I tend to miss it when it's not there. Motion controls... eh. Using a remote to point at the screen to select things, that part I like. Trying to approximate real world actions, though? Failure.

Now they seem to think they've capped out on engaging the body... so they go straight back to the eyes? Enter the newest 3D craze (as mentioned above). The 3DS is going to do poorly, so let's just set that conclusion aside.

Now there's talk of Nintendo going after our hands with that bizarre texture-sensing technology. Seriously, it's all hand-eye-hand-eye... We have other senses!

How many real attempts at innovation have their been in sound? Why not a system that includes seven small wireless speakers that can be placed around your room, and games that capitalize on this soundscape? Not everyone has a 7.1 surround-sound system, so this could really bring some people into that world.

When we deal with the eyes, it's only working in the forward direction. When we use motion controls with very limited force feedback, we're really only dealing with that sense in the outgoing direction. Sound, however, is omnidirectional. It's the sound that makes movies feel bigger, not the screen. Sound gives us far more sense of depth than any image. There's a lot of great innovation left to be done there, yet no one seems to be trying. Engage a different sense for once, and you might be surprised.

We can leave smell and taste out, I think.

Tulks:
It can be, but in both cases the 3D is not necessary to your enjoyment, much like HD quality graphics.

This is such a load of crap and I don't know why people keep saying it. HD quality graphics are absolutely necessary. HD quality graphics don't just make things look nicer and more realistic if that's the art style chosen (which is a + for immersion right there), but they also effect things like draw distance and pop-in. You go try to make a GTA IV or Saints Row for the PS1 and see how well that works out for you when you can only see a yard or two down the road before everything turns into a indecipherable white mess in the background.

If you like 3D, fine, but you need to come up with something relevant to say when people say they don't like instead of spewing this nonsense about how HD quality graphics are not needed, because that's simply not true.

Raeil:
Finally, this: "I'm trying to think of ways to employ a touch screen and a TV, and the problem I keep bumping against is that the player can only look at one screen at a time." You're right, they can only look at one screen at a time, that explains why the Nintendo DS has flopped completely... oh wait, it's the highest selling handheld of all time (if you use the numbers for all its iterations).

tl;dr - Maybe I've missed the entire point of this particular article, but the fact stands that the statements and projections from Yahtzee (the serious ones anyway, not the "kill us and take our money" ones) are not based in reality.

I think you missed the point because you didn't read all of it. If you had, you would have noticed the part where he said that the touch screen for the DS works because it's right below the other screen and you can see what's on both at the same time, but the same doesn't hold true when one is a TV that's far away and the other is a controller in your hand. Remember, there were a few games on GameCube that had you use GBAs for controllers instead, and you really can't easily switch between the TV and the GBA screen as you can with the two DS screens.

Sorry, but it seems that your post is what is not based in reality here. That or you just purposely ignored parts of the article to hate on it a little more.

should i feel bad about the 120Hz screen I am typing this on?

ShenCS:
Actually, Yahtzee's slightly off here with the "Nintendo bringing people kicking and screaming" thing. The 3D on the 3DS is entirely optional and thus will encourage developers to not make it a main focus of a game. It makes me sad knowing that new 3DS games will be judged on how good the 3D is. Too me, the 3DS seems to be more a marketting strategy. Ultimately, the 3DS isn't about the 3D. It's a DS with higher processing power and an analogue stick (a better one than the PSP at that), with the variety of the DSi plus one 3D. But because 3D is all the rage these days, Nintendo put that in the name to help it sell more and, especially, to differentiate it from the DS.

But it's also a $100 upcharge. Most of that is the 3D. And I'd love to know how much more of that power goes into making that 3D happen--which would mean turning off the 3D essentially means you're not using that extra power.

It was marketed poorly, based on a dying gimmick, and it's just too expensive to justify the non-3D improvements.

3D is the same as blueray, HD and everything else... just new ways to sell an invention generations old.

What i like with Nintendo is that they are atleast innovating. Yeah their designs are insane and undoubtably japanese... but they atleast do SOMETHING rather than play it safe like Sony or milk the gamers with faceplates and paid multiplayer like microsoft(yeah i know theres alot of exclusives and games are often released earlier for xbox but really.. you pay for it so many times over)

And whatever you want to say about it: the Wii sold way more than any other console, and so did the DS versus the PSP.

I didnt buy the wii or the DS, the remakes of final fantasy and the new zelda games didnt justify that on their own. And even if i own all the other consoles and a PC to play with... i still think Nintendo is doing the right thing. They are toying with the medium in a way no one else dare or wanna spend money on. And if people dont get fooled into buying all the shovelware they are sure to get a bit of fun out of Nintendos innovative machines. They deserve that much.. even if i dont get the same pleasure as them

N.B. Escapist editors: If you want to bring back Extra Consideration, you need to have Yahtzee and Bob debate the merits of Nintendo hardware. That would spark a real debate.

The only use for a controller screen I can think of would be a local multiplayer game where you have information you want hidden from other players, like strategy (turn-based or RTS), card games or football. Does anyone make these kinds of games any more?

Srdjan Tanaskovic:

zehydra:
I disagree. I love 3D, and I love it mainly because of the level of depth it adds to the picture. It makes whatever you're viewing much more like you're experiencing it.

I realize that a ton of people do not share this view, and do not appreciate 3d. Good for them. But at least let me enjoy my 3d, okay?

I agree with you

But it's a shame it doesn't always work the way it should

for example saw Thor last Friday in 3D (only had that in my town) and it worked really well. It felt natural and not tacked on in the last minute like say ......ehm *name of movie with bad 3D here*

That's because most 3D has been added on after the fact.

People focus far too much on what is essential in their non-essential luxury items.

"suggestive and vaguely insulting gesture"

Team Fortress 2 Demoman taunt

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