ZeoAssassin:
funny i was reminded of this from the video...Green Lantern time fuckery that turns the Jon Steward-Black version into the older Hal Jordon-White version

I loved that scene, "Yeah I'm white now, just roll with it."

The_root_of_all_evil:

Saying "Suck it up because your family did some bad things to get you where you are today"

...is the dumbest argument that can possibly be made.

Anyone who tries to say "you should put up with it because whites did X" should be laughed at.

Love the line about double standards being pretty much the only standards that there are.

For me, personally, I find that the racial casting issues really just depend on whether or not the characters race is actually intrinsic to the role. I can't think of many roles where that is the case unless you're talking about specific period films where the races of characters are fairly defined simply by fact. And no, Thor isn't a period film just because it's supposedly about Norse gods.. it's a fantasy/sci fi/comic book movie built around made up characters that never really existed. Sorry, comic book `fans.`

In fact, I actually think that sort of reverse casting could add new aspects to the role if actually taken into account in the scripting and story creation. I`d find, for example, a black spiderman, as was talked about prior to the finalized casting of the new spiderman reboot, intriguing.

If I may play devil's advocate for a minute...

The sad truth is that most anime characters are portrayed with overt Caucasian characteristics; most evident is the white skin. My theory is that this is a remnant of the Meji era, where the nation, so committed to become united after centuries of fragmented nation-states warred against eachother, that they emulated themselves after Europe and America to the letter. So when Universal decides to portray Goku with a white actor, it can be argued that it's not race-baiting but flowing authorial intent. Goku and most of the main characters of the Dragonball series have Caucasian features.

Does this excuse them from not taking the opportunity to make a more enlightened decision to portray said characters as Asian? It doesn't. It just shows the ugly truth that creators themselves are just as responsible if not more so of race-lifting than the creators themselves. When groups and individuals protest the fact that Warner Bros is casting the role of Tetsuo to white actors and not a single Asian actor, I'd like for them to take a good look at Tetsuo and tell me that outside the wild hair, he doesn't look white. It's sad and it's ugly, but sometimes race-lifting is authorial intent.

This, however, doesn't excuse race-lifting an explicitly stated or portrayed minority character as white. One of the worst parts of The Last Airbender is how M. Night Shamylan, who should know better as an Asian-American, decides to bow into corporate pressure to cast the clearly Asian characters as white. There are so few minority characters in mainstream fiction that when Hollywood decides to race-lift, it further continues the ugly misconception that the mainstream audience can't empathize with a protagonist unless he (rarely she) is Caucasian and heterosexual. When Branagh decides to cast a black actor as a white god, yes it's a double-standard but it's looking at a molehill and comparing it to a mountain.

P.S: Reeves shouldn't be cast as Spike Spiegel: find an Israeli actor to play him. Spiegel's a Jewish last name, he carries an Israeli-made gun, and he's a total badass. I'd be a perfect match.

I just want to say that while I had a bit of a "well that is weird" reaction to his casting it accentually felt really natural in the movie. The director didn't have any of his actors try to change their accents which meant that the Norse gods (i.e the ones you would assume to be Scandinavian) didn't just include a black man, but also an Asian guy, an Australian guy, and a British guy the last two being the rather central parts of Thor and Odin themselves. Now the British accent has long represented "foreign accent translated into English" hence why they play so many Germans. The point is, their all the "wrong" race, so who cares.

And while this doesn't deal with the issue in the comics, if Heindal spent all of his time guarding the rainbow bridge then the Scandinavians who adopted the Asgaurdians as gods would have never seen him. You could even joke about them giving Heindal that job because the Scandinavians, being from northern europe, would probably trust people that looked like them more than someone who seemed to come from a completely different continent.

Heimdall was the only character I liked from that movie. I don't care who played him, they did very well at it.

I have no problem with the casting of Heimdall, mostly because I had never read the comics and he was a total bad ass in the movie, but I really get tired when people class all white people together. I'm Irish/German with ancestors that left Ireland due to the Potato Famine and fought for the North. Unless my German heritage had significantly more money than I imagine, I doubt they had any African slaves either.

I'm sorry but saying we should put up with double standards to make up for the actions whites did way back when is political correctness and the idea is nonsense.

cross_breed:
Gonna have to disagree here. Is there anything wrong with casting a black character in a white character's role? Absolutely not. But, we also must apply this to traditionally black roles. Not the über meaningful ones, where the race is important to the role (the idea of a white guy playing, say Frederick Douglass is pretty disturbing to me, as it should be), but, say for sake of example Luke Cage. Is he black in the comics? Yes. Would casting a white guy to play him in the hypothetical movie utterly ruin the character? No. You see, I don't like the double standard, but I don't see anything wrong with the casting decision of a black actor in Thor.

Funny you should bring up Luke Cage. You're right that, for the most part, him being a black character is trivial. However, it does become important during the Civil War story when he compares the registration act to slavery, as it gives the statement a bit more impact. Also, few white guys have ever looked good in an afro (I say this only because that's my favourite costume of his).

Also, to anyone that's playing the "white guilt" card, you're missing the point. You shouldn't feel guilty or hold a grudge for something that was done in the past by others. You should, however, be disgusted that this shit is still around today. Just look at all the white supremacy groups that exist. What's worse is that the actions and beliefs of a few reflect badly on everyone. Don't believe me? Why is it then, that if only a handful of extremists were responsible for 9/11, do many individuals assume that all Muslims are potential terrorists and get up in arms over a Muslim cultural centre in close proximity to ground zero?

All Movie Bob is saying is the existence of the aforementioned double standard is merely a equalizing factor that should eventually be phased out as we move forward as a society.

Yes, My little pony really is the ideal world.

I really agree with Bob, but there is one thing that bugs me. Even though Dragonball was a HORRIBLE movie Song Goku is NOT japanese!!!! He is an alien that LOOKS like a WHITE HUMAN MALE. He is 6'2 with big eyes and white skin, the fact that he is 6'2 means he isn't asian.

MatsVS:
Funny how 'historical precedence' immediately gets equated by stupid white bigots as 'SINS OF THE FATHER' as they desperately try to rationalize their own biases and dismiss the concept of white privilege. Funny and sad, obviously. Stupid is as stupid does.

Bite me, i'm not a racist and i'm not guilty of a damn thing, i just don't like being forced to feel guilty for something i never took part in.
Sins of the fathers indeed.

Father Time:
I'm sorry but saying we should put up with double standards to make up for the actions whites did way back when is political correctness and it is complete bullshit.

again, another important point.

WE WEREN'T ALIVE so we had no say in things like slavery.

christ this is a grey area lol

First I would like to say that out of ALL the human representations of God, Morgan Freeman, is and forever will be the best God ever!

As for the changing of white rolls to minority rolls over the changing of a minority roll to a white world.... To say it is a necessary evil to keep a double standard is in my opinion a cop-out. It fails to address some of the underlining issues of a ever more polarizing minority culture, and quality of ability on all fronts of the acting world.

The best actor and actress for the job should get the job.

Why do one minority find themselves stuck in Tyler Perry Movies? Because the Political Correct Demand for a Multi-Culture world. A Multi-Culture world DEMANDS Cultural selective movies in which a semi-fictitious yet semi-real Culture most be pointed out and shown as unique but equal to the Majority Culture. African American Culture seems to be big on this list because it is the African American Culture that is slowly melting away into the giant stew of the Melting Pot.

With Latino Culture slowly taking over the Urban City life, a domain that was mainly Black the Multi-Culture elitists are trying to recover some kind of difference because thats what minorities need to be, the entire idea of judge one by the context of one character not by the color of their skin has been run over and trampled on, they don't want it. They want to keep some difference, they are resisting the natural melding of culture. I cringe at using this word but what is forming is better known as a Ghetto Culture, and they don't want it. Most of America is apart of the Melting Pot with just small groups of Ghetto Cultures within it like the Asian, Greeks, Jewish, Russian, Italian and all the sub-cultures of the Country.

The idea of anyone being judged by their skill alone is highly disliked in the Political Correct world. The idea we live in a shit world and that we HAVE to give the white roll to the black roll to make up for past transgressions makes no sense. How are we helping any culture by fucking with them like that?

In the case of Thor, that was purely based off of the idea that he was the best man for the job, and clearly he was for out of all the "god" like characters in the movie, he was the only one who made me say.... "That big mother fucker in the gold armor is a fucking god!"

We don't need to force or out of sympathy cast minorities into rolls just so we have the trifecta of a Black male, Latino female, and handicapped Asian. Some rolls need to be played by a certain race's especially if based off of historical events, and I understand that. But a role should be filled by the best qualified actor and actress end of story.

If a minority actor takes a roll and he clearly sucks at it and it is obviously done to put some color in a movie or whatever the reason, then their should be a big What the Fuck. Why the fuck did they do that. We shouldn't sit their and say, awe I feel so good for myself because we are making up for centuries of racial or gender mistreatment... Fuck that.... and fuck anyone who thinks that is a good thing. If the role would have been better if actor A who happens to be a none minority then actor B who was a minority but sucked then you my friend are the racist.

From,
Jason

Highfive, Bob. Highfive. As you say, the double standard is silly but pretending we weren't even more ridiculously racist in the past is even worse.

On another note, I would totally watch an episode on the Samurai Pizza Cats. Seriously.

I couldn't care less about the race, but if I'm a fan of something I want it to be exactly the same.
If in an X-men movie Magneto, my favorite character there by far would be black I would be fucking pissed!
I don't want him to be any differenet than the comics and that goes to all characters.
I don't want a character to have diffrent hair, to have different height or different colour.
Imagine a new Star Wars movie where Yoda is 1.80m(screw your American units, I don't know how it works>>"), you would KILL the director.

....... Oki, so I can understand and agree with the argument " More white characters around, thus allow for more diversity.", BUT!!!
Why the hell does the whole "Oh, well your ancestors did evil stuff." work? Why does everyone keep using the arguments "Well men have been domineering society for XXX years, so it's okay that....." or "Well white people enslaved XX ethnicity and were evil"?
I DIDN'T DO ANY OF THAT! Why should the sins of my ancestors affect me? If my father was a murdered and my grandfather a serial killer you have no right to judge who I am or discriminate against me.
Ok, so discrimination against white people isn't a serious issue, probably never will be, but it still feels shitty to have all these double standards. Especially when we live in a modern world. *SIGH*
Have I finished ranting?..... One more point: A man of any ethnicity can walk with ease in western society, in Africa a white man will feel very ill at ease walking the streets.

googleback:

Father Time:
I'm sorry but saying we should put up with double standards to make up for the actions whites did way back when is political correctness and it is complete bullshit.

again, another important point.

WE WEREN'T ALIVE so we had no say in things like slavery.

christ this is a grey area lol

It's grayer than that. Whites were not solely responsible for American slavery. They bought some of their slaves from African slaveowners.

To make it grayer look at who fought to get rid of slavery in the U.S, a whole lot of white guys (and some others as well).

Eldarion:

Draconalis:
One African tribe capture another African tribe and sold them to the Spaniards who treated the captured Africans worse than any slave holder.

That's all I really have to say about racism in history.

^This.

All this "slavery is the white man's fault" nonsense rings a little false considering that black people captured/enslaved/sold eachother as well, so they aren't really any better are they?

Not to imply that there wasn't a huge amount of wrongdoing on our side, a whole ton in fact. But it wasn't just whitey doing it.

In fact... ironically, bring slaves to America and selling them encompassed an entire spectrum of racial unity.... except Asians, but they don't really count as people, right?

(Disclaimer: I love Asians. They are a great people)

Im a dominican. I live in the Dominican Republic. Black Norse God? NOT A PROBLEM... hell, if I weren't a regular internet user, I wouldn't even have noticed the black dude in the first place.

Thats me anyway.

(1st post here... ever.)

Aureliano:
Highfive, Bob. Highfive. As you say, the double standard is silly but pretending we weren't even more ridiculously racist in the past is even worse.

We're not saying that all we're saying is that excusing double standards by pointing to worse double standards is a really dumb argument.

Well at least you finally got that out there, honestly I couldn't agree more with what you said. Yes It's a double standard that white people turning I don't know.....purple with green stripes....is okay, but the opposite is open to debate is because as you said our mixed history (before you go "that's all in the past", just look at gay rights and what have you, it's what I refer to the as "The race debate version 2.0"). I'm of the opinion that any kind of race-swap is OKAY, as long as I get a good performance from the actor in question(which does in fact mean those train-wrecks like Last Airbender and that Dragonball abomination are NOT okay, because they sucked), another example I can think of where this was an issue was the Prince of Persia movie which was good, so I didn't really care either way, I'm not the type no wag my finger at people screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when they want to change something I like in a minor way (Like the color slider on any given character), but you will get that reaction from me if you have a complete paradigm shift on any given work (Live-action adaptions of anime (specifically american ones), etc). Also just because Will smith got Top billing a LOT doesn't mean there are enough movies with black actors

At one time, people of all races could be property together. They'd just go to any other country, even Italy and Greece, and snatch some people. In Ancient Rome, Greeks apparently made great teachers and actors.

'White' is incredibly vague. Just as there are numerous Native American tribes, and numerous African tribes, there are multiple groups of White people. And they've gone to war amongst one another, just as the other groups have.

In other words, Bob was wrong. History was much, much worse than he said it was.

Off topic. Dont know why there should be outrage at the casting of Dragonball seeing as Goku is an Alien from a different galaxy who happens to have similar traits to human beings. As well as he comes from a fictional universe that is not Asian specific... wanna get angry at Dragonball (aside from the fact that it sucked) ? Well then get angry about the fact that we did not see the King of the planet earth... the Dog wearing a Suit.

As for our inherent double standard... well it's an imperfect world but the general allowance that western culture has for change now is far greater than that of earlier times and perhaps we are really moving on to a slightly less crappy world, where the question of race is replaced by a question of character.

I'm Biggi and thats the Biggi-Picture

Vault Citizen:
As a comic book fan the reason why I rejected the idea of a black spiderman and why I'd probably dislike a black Batman is that personally speaking I can be a bit of a nut for detail. More simply put I like it better when they match and when they don't it annoys me in the same way it might annoy a neat freak if a fork is out of place or something.

I can agree with this, to the extent I still mean to find the passage in Tolkein's writing that describes the differing appearances of different Hobbits from different parts of the Shire to see whether or not a Pakistani woman should, imo, be allowed to play a Hobbit *dives behind asbestos wall* ...

... but I can see another problem with the idea of a black Batman.

Think about Batman's back-story.

Origin

While leaving a movie theater for home, wealthy philanthropist Thomas Wayne and his wife Martha were accompanied by their 8 year-old son, Bruce. As they stepped onto Park Row (now called Crime Alley) a masked gunman called Joe Chill came out of the shadows. Chill shot and killed both Thomas and Martha in cold blood right in front of their young boy. Bruce was traumatized at the sight of his parents' death and his life would never be the same. After his parents' death, Bruce was raised by his wise and loyal butler Alfred Pennyworth and inherited his family's vast fortune as well as his father's company, Wayne Enterprises. ... With so many skills acquired, Bruce considered joining the FBI but learned that he could never fight crime within the current legal system.

The same page says Batman was first published in 1939. Wealthy black philanthropists with a wise and loyal butler and a vast fortune, in a city in the USA in 1939? Alright, him being unable to fight crime within the FBI matches being black in the USA in 1939 fairly well, but the rest of that story just doesn't.

A modern Batman, born after 1990, could be black and have that back-story ... just.

I'll tell you who should be black but probably won't be in most cases: God, Michael, Gabriel, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Joshua, Abraham ...

Specifically:

World's most ancient race traced in DNA study

The San people of southern Africa, who have lived as hunter-gatherers for thousands of years, are likely to be the oldest population of humans on Earth, according to the biggest and most detailed analysis of African DNA. The San, also known as bushmen, are directly descended from the original population of early human ancestors who gave rise to all other groups of Africans and, eventually, to the people who left the continent to populate other parts of the world.

A study of 121 distinct populations of modern-day Africans has found that they are all descended from 14 ancestral populations and that the differences and similarities of their genes closely follows the differences and similarities of their spoken languages.

Yes, I have seen Dogma. I did say "in most cases" there.

I reject on the grounds that asgardians do not have relaxer.

googleback:

Mantonio:

googleback:
the man himself Idris Elba doesn't want race to be a part of the discussion when it comes to his character.
I believe in casting that is only Racially profiling when the character is WRITTEN as that particular race. and by that I mean not just a casual "he's white btw" from the writer.

The Reason James Bond is white is because back when the character was originally written you wouldn't have seen a black guy in such a position. especially in that backwards and primitive time of segregation and prejudice...

Today? why couldn't he be? why couldn't (for example) IDRIS ELBA (one of my country's FINEST film actors) PLAY A BRITISH SECRET AGENT? Just throwing it out there!

seriously! think back over Casino Royale and just copy Paste Elba over Daniel Craig? bond is pretty ambiguous as it is right?

Well unfortunately, the fan theory of 'James Bond' just being a code name, a theory that would erase all continuity issues, issues with different actors and levels of seriousness and allow any type of race into the role... isn't canon. James Bond being an actual person is.

While it could still work, granted, it would be much harder to pull off.

yeah I guess your right. It feels like the character of bond has become more than just one man in a sort of Timelord way but I think at the end of the day they could get away with it. be a ballsy move. He would definitely play the shit out of it though! ;p

Regardless of whether or not "james Bond" is officially a codename, it's essentially become so because of the way the films have been produced. Daniels Craig's Bond is supposed to be just starting out in the espionage business. There's no conceivable reason why James Bond can't be black, or "The Doctor" for that matter. Hell "The Doctor" could be black and female if they found a good enough actor.

As a Swede the whole THOR thing is mostly a joke to us anyways.
Thor in Norse myth is QUITE different from the THOR in the US. So, If they want to cast a great dark-skinned actor I don't give a fuck, since Norse mythology really seems to mostly be an inspiration.
(http://satwcomic.com/nordic-halloween)

But, I don't think that you can inherit guilt. Never mind that European colonialism and technology have risen the standard of for the former colonies. (See india)
So, I really feel that race isn't an issue anymore. But, I'm speaking for northern Europe. Our hands are (Mostly) clean in this issue.

Bob you once again get to the heart of things and properly explain the meaning of cultural privilege to those who may not have had a graspable definition of it's complex construct. For that I can only thank you. If there is something more I could do to help you hammer this point home, ask and I will act.